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"Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

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Search site with JCB

Post by PeterMac on 15.05.14 16:44

" />

" />
And there is the JCB.  A HUGE one.
(It is the thing that looks like a "guitar" !)

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by TheTruthWillOut on 15.05.14 16:55

@Cristobell wrote:
@TheTruthWillOut wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:According to the dogs, the body was moved in the car a couple of weeks after the tapas friends left PDL.  

If the body was thrown in the sea on the night, or even anytime after, why was there the smell of cadaver in the car?

It is a good question Cristobell. Has there been another case where a car not in the possession of possible suspects for weeks after a victim disappears but then tests positive for cadaver scent/blood?

It is such a unusual scenario that it is very difficult to work out how it could come about.
If we believe the dogs (I do) the body was moved in the car and as no burial sites, movement of earth or anything was found around PDL during the search, then it looks as though Goncalo's theory that it was stored, probably refrigerated, seems most likely.  The use of the car, imo, rules out the body being thrown in the sea.

I agree it is the simplest/least effort scenario. We just need to know where the body was stored and workout where certain people were between the hiring of the car and the PJ seizing it.

I wonder if the PJ, after finding vestiges(sp) in the Scenic, checked traffic cams/CCTV for example along the path of the Huelva trip?

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Ghengis on 15.05.14 17:02

Ha, that is an old photo with the JCB PeterMac :)

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by TheTruthWillOut on 15.05.14 17:14

@Ghengis wrote:Ha, that is an old photo with the JCB PeterMac :)

I think the point is Ghengis is that any digging (the size required for a grave) in the immediate area of the Mark Warner complex would require a JCB digger to do it. 

Now the question is were the helicopter photos just for show or was there a genuine reason for it?

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by tiny on 15.05.14 17:17

@TheTruthWillOut wrote:
@Ghengis wrote:Ha, that is an old photo with the JCB PeterMac :)

I think the point is Ghengis is that any digging (the size required for a grave) in the immediate area of the Mark Warner complex would require a JCB digger to do it. 

Now the question is were the helicopter photos just for show or was there a genuine reason for it?

I  think the helicopter and the map of the supposed dig were/ are a redherring

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Ghengis on 15.05.14 17:19

@TheTruthWillOut wrote:
@Ghengis wrote:Ha, that is an old photo with the JCB PeterMac :)

I think the point is Ghengis is that any digging (the size required for a grave) in the immediate area of the Mark Warner complex would require a JCB digger to do it. 

Now the question is were the helicopter photos just for show or was there a genuine reason for it?

Agreed.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by jeanmonroe on 15.05.14 17:31



JEZ WILKINS. GERRY'S TENNIS 'BUDDY' WOULD HAVE HAD A TREMENDOUS 'BIRD'S EYE 'VIEW' OF THE WASTELAND AND ROAD, 'SEARCHES' WOULDN'T HE?

REMEMBER, WE ONLY HAVE HIS 'WORD' ABOUT WHAT HE DID THAT NIGHT!

ONE thing he didn't 'DO' that night was to get even a tinsy, wincy, 'mention' on TWO handwritten 'timelines'!

Even though he was a central, pivotal, (Gerry's 'alibi') character!

eta: And he passed the Police THREE times, on the morning of 4th May, and didn't even ask if they had found his tennis 'buddy's' 'abducted' daughter!

But he did manage to  'lift up the police tape' 'go to breakfast' and walk to the creche with MO. and LEAVE his kid with 'a nanny' at the creche with uncaught  'abductor' on the loose.

My kids would have been chained to me, no matter how much they screamed, until 'abductor' was caught or until i returned to UK.

What i wouldn't have done is LEAVE them with 'unknown' staff at a creche!

(unless, of course, i KNEW there wasn't a REAL 'abductor'  winkwink  winkwink ')

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Lance De Boils on 15.05.14 17:35

Perhaps the helicopter flight over PDL was a distraction - a misdirection. Do we know the base from which the helicopter launched? I'm sure it must have passed overhead a number of other areas, not only PDL. Perhaps the real areas of interest are not in PDL at all. [But it would make some tactical sense to have the photo opportunities and press concentrating on Luz.]

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Guest on 15.05.14 17:48

@PeterMac wrote:
@comperedna wrote: Petermac. Surely the Met must KNOW this. It is just that quite rightly they are not saying so. Anyone thinking it through can work this out.
And that MUST include all the extended Healy / McCann family members.
The ones who know that they were lied to in that series of morning phone calls when they were told that the shutters had been broken / forced / jemmied, only to discover later that day, or the next that they were not and had not been.
(I wonder how they all felt then ?)
[...]
***
Have we ever learned EXACTLY WHAT sent Eileen McCann and Susan Healy on the "granny express" within days ... ?

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by tasprin on 15.05.14 18:04

Châtelaine wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@comperedna wrote: Petermac. Surely the Met must KNOW this. It is just that quite rightly they are not saying so. Anyone thinking it through can work this out.
And that MUST include all the extended Healy / McCann family members.
The ones who know that they were lied to in that series of morning phone calls when they were told that the shutters had been broken / forced / jemmied, only to discover later that day, or the next that they were not and had not been.
(I wonder how they all felt then ?)
[...]
***
Have we ever learned EXACTLY WHAT sent Eileen McCann and Susan Healy on the "granny express" within days ... ?

No, but at a guess, I'd say that, unlike the media, the grannies were not afraid of asking too many questions - couldn't carter-ruck 'em so best stick 'em on the granny express asap.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Cristobell on 15.05.14 18:25

@jeanmonroe wrote:

JEZ WILKINS. GERRY'S TENNIS 'BUDDY' WOULD HAVE HAD A TREMENDOUS 'BIRD'S EYE 'VIEW' OF THE WASTELAND AND ROAD, 'SEARCHES' WOULDN'T HE?

REMEMBER, WE ONLY HAVE HIS 'WORD' ABOUT WHAT HE DID THAT NIGHT!

ONE thing he didn't 'DO' that night was to get even a tinsy, wincy, 'mention' on TWO handwritten 'timelines'!

Even though he was a central, pivotal, (Gerry's 'alibi') character!

eta: And he passed the Police THREE times, on the morning of 4th May, and didn't even ask if they had found his tennis 'buddy's' 'abducted' daughter!

But he did manage to  'lift up the police tape' 'go to breakfast' and walk to the creche with MO. and LEAVE his kid with 'a nanny' at the creche with uncaught  'abductor' on the loose.

My kids would have been chained to me, no matter how much they screamed, until 'abductor' was caught or until i returned to UK.

What i wouldn't have done is LEAVE them with 'unknown' staff at a creche!

(unless, of course, i KNEW there wasn't a REAL 'abductor'  winkwink  winkwink ')
Wholeheartedly agree Jean.  This to me was one of the biggest red flags and a turning point.  Like yourself, I find the idea of using the creche in the same resort from which one child has already been 'taken' is madness.  

This discussion has come up before the pros defended Kate by saying, they had no alternative but to put the kids in the creche as they had to go to the police station to give statements.  Imo, they were a party of 9 responsible adults, and the police took one half of the group in the morning and the second half in the afternoon, so childcare should not have been a problem.  By the evening of the 4th May, the entire clans Healy and McCann were arriving en masse, but none of them took over the childcare either as the creche was opened on Saturday 5th May, especially for the tapas group.  

I have nothing against itinerant workers, but given the bizarre circumstances in which Madeleine disappeared, I would have thought the resort staff would would have been amongst the first suspects.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by PeterMac on 15.05.14 18:48

@Ghengis wrote:Ha, that is an old photo with the JCB PeterMac :)
Of course it is.
It is actally a screen grab from google earth
What it shows is that you need a JCB with a picka-picka to get through the ground in the areas the press were last week trumpeting as the likely search areas.
A small garden trowel and ten minutes is not enough.
Most of that area, as we can all see from the pictures below my post, is bedrock limestone, with a fine powder dusty soil and blown sand covering. Only the hardiest scrubland shrubs can find a crack big
enough to put a single root down.
Up country, however is a totally different matter.

Mucking around in a helicopter above PdL was a silly diversion.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by PeterMac on 15.05.14 18:53

@tasprin wrote:
No, but at a guess, I'd say that, unlike the media, the grannies were not afraid of asking too many questions - couldn't carter-ruck 'em so best stick 'em on the granny express asap.
Why not ? They have already hit one Grandfather (admittedly not theirs)
They also seem to have managed to shut Motor-mouth Philomena up fairly successfully, and the Tapas group "Have a Pact" . . .
It could even be a legal one, since there were lawyers present at the Secret Rothley Meeting.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by comperedna on 15.05.14 19:04

Even in the soft alluvial soil of a river valley in West Oxfordshire, the green burial site where I shall eventually be filled in :-) requires a big JCB to dig a grave. A 'shallow grave' in rock hard earth with a few stones on top would be excavated by dogs in no time. Somewhere round PDL to look? No chance!

As a completely irrelevant (natch) aside. Some things I have said before. The tragedy is the death itself. A body is not a person... not remotely like one, IMHO. What happens in hospital when someone dies? The body is taken to the mortuary and placed in a fridge drawer. If, for a variety of reasons, it has to be kept for a longer time, it is placed in one of the many fewer freezer drawers. This is routine. In a crisis one often turns to well understood routines.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by TheTruthWillOut on 15.05.14 19:59

@Lance De Boils wrote:Perhaps the helicopter flight over PDL was a distraction - a misdirection. Do we know the base from which the helicopter launched? I'm sure it must have passed overhead a number of other areas, not only PDL. Perhaps the real areas of interest are not in PDL at all. [But it would make some tactical sense to have the photo opportunities and press concentrating on Luz.]

I think it operates out of Baja Air Force Base (Air Base no.11)

A picture of the actual Helicopter from the official website:


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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Guest on 15.05.14 20:30

@TheTruthWillOut wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:Perhaps the helicopter flight over PDL was a distraction - a misdirection. Do we know the base from which the helicopter launched? I'm sure it must have passed overhead a number of other areas, not only PDL. Perhaps the real areas of interest are not in PDL at all. [But it would make some tactical sense to have the photo opportunities and press concentrating on Luz.]

I think it operates out of Baja Air Force Base (Air Base no.11)

A picture of the actual Helicopter from the official website:


If I can just correct your typo there, should have been Beja. Flying Beja-Algarve could potentially take you over some very interesting spots. But did SY embark there, or were they picked up at Faro?

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Nina on 15.05.14 21:25

@tasprin wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@comperedna wrote: Petermac. Surely the Met must KNOW this. It is just that quite rightly they are not saying so. Anyone thinking it through can work this out.
And that MUST include all the extended Healy / McCann family members.
The ones who know that they were lied to in that series of morning phone calls when they were told that the shutters had been broken / forced / jemmied, only to discover later that day, or the next that they were not and had not been.
(I wonder how they all felt then ?)
[...]
***
Have we ever learned EXACTLY WHAT sent Eileen McCann and Susan Healy on the "granny express" within days ... ?

No, but at a guess, I'd say that, unlike the media, the grannies were not afraid of asking too many questions - couldn't carter-ruck 'em so best stick 'em on the granny express asap.
The Granny Express wouldn't have been an hour on a train from platform nine, but a flight booked at great expense, not cheap last minute. Then a drive to the airport, by whom? Then a two hour pre flight wait, and then the flight itself. Did they both fly back to the same airport? So the express bit is not in reality true, but then, what is?

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by worriedmum on 15.05.14 21:42

@PeterMac wrote:

It could even be a legal one, since there were lawyers present at the Secret Rothley Meeting.
 exalt  lol!   exalt 

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by petunia on 15.05.14 22:01

@jeanmonroe wrote:

JEZ WILKINS. GERRY'S TENNIS 'BUDDY' WOULD HAVE HAD A TREMENDOUS 'BIRD'S EYE 'VIEW' OF THE WASTELAND AND ROAD, 'SEARCHES' WOULDN'T HE?

REMEMBER, WE ONLY HAVE HIS 'WORD' ABOUT WHAT HE DID THAT NIGHT!

ONE thing he didn't 'DO' that night was to get even a tinsy, wincy, 'mention' on TWO handwritten 'timelines'!

Even though he was a central, pivotal, (Gerry's 'alibi') character!

eta: And he passed the Police THREE times, on the morning of 4th May, and didn't even ask if they had found his tennis 'buddy's' 'abducted' daughter!

But he did manage to  'lift up the police tape' 'go to breakfast' and walk to the creche with MO. and LEAVE his kid with 'a nanny' at the creche with uncaught  'abductor' on the loose.

My kids would have been chained to me, no matter how much they screamed, until 'abductor' was caught or until i returned to UK.

What i wouldn't have done is LEAVE them with 'unknown' staff at a creche!

(unless, of course, i KNEW there wasn't a REAL 'abductor'  winkwink  winkwink ')
absolutely agree..

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by sharonl on 15.05.14 23:44

If Madeleine's body was found near the apartment (highly unlikely) what are the chances that an abductor was involved in her death?

The body was so well buried that even a major land search by police, dogs, holiday makers and locals on May 3rd/4th failed to discover her.

It is highly unlikely that the body was buried whilst such a huge search was going on which means that the only opportunity to bury the body without being noticed was before the search started.

Even if Gerry checked at 9.05pm  (say he arrived at 9.07 and spent just 5 minutes in the apt, that takes us to 9.12pm) and Kate found Madeleine Missing at 10.00pm,  that would give the abductor a maximum of 45-48 minutes to enter the apartment, find Madeleine in the dark, lift her carefully out of bed and leave without waking any of the children, without drawing attention to himself and leaving no trace of his presence.  Then he murders her without being heard and promptly buries her nearby, a task that he does so brilliantly that even a massive land search fails to discover her body.

Is all that possible in 48 minutes?

What is the likelihood that the abductor got away with this burial in a nearby area at a later date?

What possible motive would the abductor have to take a child from her bed, murder and bury her within less than an hour?

So if the body is near apartment 5a, I would think that it was buried long before May 3rd 2007 which can only mean one thing.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Guest on 15.05.14 23:51

@sharonl wrote:
So if the body is near apartment 5a, I would think that it was buried long before May 3rd 2007which can only mean one thing.
It can only mean one thing as well if we believe the dogs and the hire car. 

That is the body is nowhere near apartment 5a. Probably not in PDL either.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by sharonl on 16.05.14 0:01

Andrew77R wrote:
@sharonl wrote:
So if the body is near apartment 5a, I would think that it was buried long before May 3rd 2007which can only mean one thing.
It can only mean one thing as well if we believe the dogs and the hire car. 

That is the body is nowhere near apartment 5a. Probably not in PDL either.

obviously not, which explains why the PJ are reluctant to waste time and money digging up bits of ground for no reason.

Yet another P R Exercise?


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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Guest on 16.05.14 0:07

@sharonl wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:
@sharonl wrote:
So if the body is near apartment 5a, I would think that it was buried long before May 3rd 2007which can only mean one thing.
It can only mean one thing as well if we believe the dogs and the hire car. 

That is the body is nowhere near apartment 5a. Probably not in PDL either.

obviously not, which explains why the PJ are reluctant to waste time and money digging up bits of ground for no reason.

Yet another P R Exercise?

Possibly so but have Op Grange actually come out on record to say they want to start digging in PDL... Or is it just Team McCann spin?

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by nobodythereeither on 16.05.14 1:11

@comperedna wrote:As a completely irrelevant (natch) aside. Some things I have said before. The tragedy is the death itself. A body is not a person... not remotely like one, IMHO. What happens in hospital when someone dies? The body is taken to the mortuary and placed in a fridge drawer. If, for a variety of reasons, it has to be kept for a longer time, it is placed in one of the many fewer freezer drawers. This is routine. In a crisis one often turns to well understood routines.

Interesting point.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by sharonl on 16.05.14 6:48

Andrew77R wrote:
@sharonl wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:
@sharonl wrote:
So if the body is near apartment 5a, I would think that it was buried long before May 3rd 2007which can only mean one thing.
It can only mean one thing as well if we believe the dogs and the hire car. 

That is the body is nowhere near apartment 5a. Probably not in PDL either.

obviously not, which explains why the PJ are reluctant to waste time and money digging up bits of ground for no reason.

Yet another P R Exercise?

Possibly so but have Op Grange actually come out on record to say they want to start digging in PDL... Or is it just Team McCann spin?

Probably team McCann spin but why the change of tune? For years they have wanted us to believe that Madeleine was alive and findable and now this.

Are the McCanns afraid that something has been discovered or about to be discovered?

Diversionary tactics?

Or could it be that NSY are trying to get in with PJ by pretending to be looking at death scenario?


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