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"Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

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"Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by PeterMac on Fri May 09, 2014 9:41 am

"Digging" thread now at 100 pages, so starting another one - (if that is OK admin.)
Military helicopters are not just hired by the hour on the spur of the moment, like catamarans on the beach
ergo
this little jolly has been planned for a long time,
the PJ have had full knowledge of exactly what SY wanted to do - and by implication have approved it
The whole thing has been approved at VERY high level.
By which I mean Government - Ministry of Defence after consultation with the "Home Office" = Ministry of the Interior equivalent

ergo
Someone must have spelled out
Exactly WHAT they wanted to look for
Exactly WHERE they wanted to look
Exactly WHY
Exactly WHO
and so on.

And this must have been agreed as a viable and useful thing to do.
By the entire Chain of Command

They are clearly NOT looking for freshly turned soil, nor are they looking for a little girl in a pink hat
So what are they looking for that they could not see on a decent map or aerial photograph.

Suggestions ?

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on Fri May 09, 2014 9:45 am

That's what I've been thinking, I agree with you all your ergo's :)

Unfortunately I don't have any suggestions, not knowing enough about the kinds of equipment that could be carried in a helicopter.

I find it interesting that it is a military helicopter, not a civilian one.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by plebgate on Fri May 09, 2014 9:48 am

Thanks for OP PeterM, said it before and will say it again.   NEW CHANNELS EVERYWHERE, GET THIS MAN ON YOUR "WHAT THE PAPERS SAY" slots/progs and get some of your credibility back.   The Muppets they have had on so far is NOT FUNNY.

Go PeterM, Go.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Guest on Fri May 09, 2014 9:51 am

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:That's what I've been thinking, I agree with you all your ergo's :)

Unfortunately I don't have any suggestions, not knowing enough about the kinds of equipment that could be carried in a helicopter.

I find it interesting that it is a military helicopter, not a civilian one.

Time of year could be significant, water courses etc? I referred to this elsewhere, but Monday's "A Place In the Sun" (which I believe was a repeat) was super weird on many levels. Apart from the inclusion of a somewhat pointless interview with Sally Eveleigh, they also visited an inland village that was, for some months of the year, connected to the sea - even going so far as to point out that the neighbours owned a speedboat, despite the river behind the houses being bone dry at the time of filming.

I don't like events being force-fitted into some kind of narrative but that's exactly what I feel is happening here.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Angelique on Fri May 09, 2014 9:52 am

I also think that it depends on what the agenda is. It could play both ways.

We are throwing everything at this search to try and ascertain what happened to Madeleine.

Or

It's a jolly good way to impress the UK taxpayers.

The Met men do look well on our money though!

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by nglfi on Fri May 09, 2014 9:56 am

Just wondering - when the forensics expert spoke on Sky news about looking for 'lush vegetation', is this because it eould indicate the presence of a cadaver? Some news outlets are very keen to emphasise the police are not looking for a body, but this  idea doesn't make sense to me in any other context. What else would lush vegetation indicate?

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Nereid on Fri May 09, 2014 9:58 am

It would be interesting to know what technique they are using.

There is a relatively new technique out called hyperspectral imaging:



"For the first five years or so a decaying body inhibits plant growth. "Initially it's a pretty toxic environment," for plants, said Kalacska, who, along with Pablo Arroyo and Tim Moore, manages the technological side of the research. Plants that grow over such recent graves don't reflect as much light in the visible and near infrared region, which scientists can detect using their cameras.
After five years, however, the plants growing over buried body suddenly reflect light instead of absorbing light. In fact, on-grave plants reflect more than twice the green light of off-grave plants. For a human eye detecting such tiny changes would be "very hard," said Kalacska, but the difference is obvious to the hyperspectral camera.
The increase in reflected light comes from an increase in chlorophyll, the pigment that plants use to convert light from the sun. After five years a decomposing body becomes fertilizer, supplying the growing plants with much needed nutrients like nitrogen and phosphorus. Bigger plants with bigger, healthier leaves reflect more light. "

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/tech-sees-dead-people/story?id=10389441

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by nglfi on Fri May 09, 2014 10:02 am

@Nereid wrote:It would be interesting to know what technique they are using.

There is a relatively new technique out called hyperspectral imaging:



"For the first five years or so a decaying body inhibits plant growth. "Initially it's a pretty toxic environment," for plants, said Kalacska, who, along with Pablo Arroyo and Tim Moore, manages the technological side of the research. Plants that grow over such recent graves don't reflect as much light in the visible and near infrared region, which scientists can detect using their cameras.
After five years, however, the plants growing over buried body suddenly reflect light instead of absorbing light. In fact, on-grave plants reflect more than twice the green light of off-grave plants. For a human eye detecting such tiny changes would be "very hard," said Kalacska, but the difference is obvious to the hyperspectral camera.
The increase in reflected light comes from an increase in chlorophyll, the pigment that plants use to convert light from the sun. After five years a decomposing body becomes fertilizer, supplying the growing plants with much needed nutrients like nitrogen and phosphorus. Bigger plants with bigger, healthier leaves reflect more light. "

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/tech-sees-dead-people/story?id=10389441
Very very interesting indeed, thank you. We're past the 5 year mark so it would be interesting to see
if that figures in their equations!

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on Fri May 09, 2014 10:04 am

Time of year could well be significant. Perhaps it is not just good timing that this search has begun at the same time of year that Madeleine disappeared.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Tilly-flop on Fri May 09, 2014 10:07 am

Will PJ/SY be using metal detectors too, when they search the various areas in PdL?


Rest of post deleted.......aleady mentioned and has a thread and on other threads too.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on Fri May 09, 2014 10:11 am

Funny how the 'Riddler's post is popping up in various different threads.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Woofer on Fri May 09, 2014 10:13 am

I can`t see them going to all this trouble unless they`ve had a tip-off and have a good idea where and what they`re looking for.  They`ve padded out the story to appear less precise in case certain people do a runner.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Cristobell on Fri May 09, 2014 10:13 am

@PeterMac wrote:"Digging" thread now at 100 pages, so starting another one - (if that is OK admin.)
Military helicopters are not just hired by the hour on the spur of the moment, like catamarans on the beach
ergo
this little jolly has been planned for a long time,
the PJ have had full knowledge of exactly what SY wanted to do - and by implication have approved it
The whole thing has been approved at VERY high level.
By which I mean Government - Ministry of Defence after consultation with the "Home Office" = Ministry of the Interior equivalent

ergo
Someone must have spelled out
Exactly WHAT they wanted to look for
Exactly WHERE they wanted to look
Exactly WHY
Exactly WHO
and so on.

And this must have been agreed as a viable and useful thing to do.
By the entire Chain of Command

They are clearly NOT looking for freshly turned soil, nor are they looking for a little girl in a pink hat
So what are they looking for that they could not see on a decent map or aerial photograph.

Suggestions ?
It is always good to read your summaries Petermac, you keep it real!

I was reading the statements of Mark Harrison last night, he was the British search expert brought in, in 2007.  He was tasked with finding a burial area on the supposition that Madeleine had died in the apartment and had been buried nearby, ie, not where she had been dumped by an abductor.  It now looks as though 7 years on, they are following up on his report, although I agree, they must have more specific information to have obtained permission to start digging.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by worriedmum on Fri May 09, 2014 10:17 am

@Tilly-flop wrote:Will PJ/SY be using metal detectors too, when they search the various areas in PdL?





The reason I chose to post my comments on this thread is – wasn’t there speculation that Gerry (or Kate) lost their wedding ring during their holiday in PdL w/c 28th April 2007? 









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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Nereid on Fri May 09, 2014 10:17 am

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Funny how the 'Riddler's post is popping up in various different threads.

 agree 

Perhaps Mods can move it to the appropriate thread or remove the quoted 'riddle', as it is disrupting the flow of this one. Thanks  roses

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Guest on Fri May 09, 2014 10:20 am

@Cristobell wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:"Digging" thread now at 100 pages, so starting another one - (if that is OK admin.)
Military helicopters are not just hired by the hour on the spur of the moment, like catamarans on the beach
ergo
this little jolly has been planned for a long time,
the PJ have had full knowledge of exactly what SY wanted to do - and by implication have approved it
The whole thing has been approved at VERY high level.
By which I mean Government - Ministry of Defence after consultation with the "Home Office" = Ministry of the Interior equivalent

ergo
Someone must have spelled out
Exactly WHAT they wanted to look for
Exactly WHERE they wanted to look
Exactly WHY
Exactly WHO
and so on.

And this must have been agreed as a viable and useful thing to do.
By the entire Chain of Command

They are clearly NOT looking for freshly turned soil, nor are they looking for a little girl in a pink hat
So what are they looking for that they could not see on a decent map or aerial photograph.

Suggestions ?
It is always good to read your summaries Petermac, you keep it real!

I was reading the statements of Mark Harrison last night, he was the British search expert brought in, in 2007.  He was tasked with finding a burial area on the supposition that Madeleine had died in the apartment and had been buried nearby, ie, not where she had been dumped by an abductor.  It now looks as though 7 years on, they are following up on his report, although I agree, they must have more specific information to have obtained permission to start digging.
IIRC the same Mark Harrison advised the investigation to focus on the parents..

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by riskybuisness on Fri May 09, 2014 10:20 am

If a civilian helicopter was used then the PJ may have been out the loop - thus best for them to use the military one.

I hardly ever post but read most days - have done since the 3a days- I don't believe that there is any massive cover up going on because if there was
1. we would probably never have  heard much about the story in the first place
2. the mcc's would have met their fate to shut them up pretty early on - a suicide due to the fact they could not live without her story would have been easy to portray

I think that the politicians did what they always do - go where they think the votes are - regardless of facts etc- once they had made their beds it's been hard to back track- I bet many wish they had just stayed a out of it.

I still think that sometimes the simplest explanations just work the best- Kids left alone - one dies- all are scared that they could be charged and loose their other children and jobs (may even have been doing "stuff" that would have involved them popping back and forth to apartments for their own enjoyment-not  for checking- as well as leaving kids). 

 What also crosses my mind is that they were mostly medics- I am sure that once they found her they would have worked to save her- her body would show that - anyone who has done resuscitation will know that you usually feel/hear the ribs break while doing this- I have luckily never had to do this to a child but have heard the bones of an adult go while doing it so I can only imagine that as a medic gets more desperate to restart the heart a childs bones would go even easier.

For that reason alone I do not think they would have left that body in PDL - That may the clue to needing to go back and remove it later (ie the car)- but how they would manage this under the watch of locals and the press- who knows.

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Re:Digging With a Helicopter

Post by Sparklehorse on Fri May 09, 2014 10:22 am

Perhaps that are hoping to uncover some hellish lairs. I am hopeful they might uncover some hellish liars instead

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by canada12 on Fri May 09, 2014 10:22 am

@PeterMac wrote:"Digging" thread now at 100 pages, so starting another one - (if that is OK admin.)
Military helicopters are not just hired by the hour on the spur of the moment, like catamarans on the beach
ergo
this little jolly has been planned for a long time,
the PJ have had full knowledge of exactly what SY wanted to do - and by implication have approved it
The whole thing has been approved at VERY high level.
By which I mean Government - Ministry of Defence after consultation with the "Home Office" = Ministry of the Interior equivalent

ergo
Someone must have spelled out
Exactly WHAT they wanted to look for
Exactly WHERE they wanted to look
Exactly WHY
Exactly WHO
and so on.

And this must have been agreed as a viable and useful thing to do.
By the entire Chain of Command

They are clearly NOT looking for freshly turned soil, nor are they looking for a little girl in a pink hat
So what are they looking for that they could not see on a decent map or aerial photograph.

Suggestions ?

Evidence of disturbed earth from 7 years ago - perhaps they have satellite photos of what the area looked like in 2007 before Madeleine disappeared, and are comparing what it looks like now, and what has changed that cannot be explained.


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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Guest on Fri May 09, 2014 10:22 am

@Nereid wrote:
@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Funny how the 'Riddler's post is popping up in various different threads.

 agree 

Perhaps Mods can move it to the appropriate thread or remove the quoted 'riddle', as it is disrupting the flow of this one. Thanks  roses

It has already been removed.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by russiandoll on Fri May 09, 2014 10:23 am

from twitter 

Joana Morais@xklamation 10m
PJ about to discard English Police strongest lead that Madeleine was abducted by a sex predator exclusive by @Marisa_TVI #mccann #madeleine

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by ChippyM on Fri May 09, 2014 10:24 am

@nglfi wrote:Just wondering - when the forensics expert spoke on Sky news about looking for 'lush vegetation', is this because it eould indicate the presence of a cadaver? Some news outlets are very keen to emphasise the police are not looking for a body, but this  idea doesn't make sense to me in any other context. What else would lush vegetation indicate?

 I took that as meaning a body because the plants over the body would be getting more 'fertilizer'.  I don't think this person was at all connected to the investigation so they just got them on to speculate I suppose.  I don't think any of the reporters or newspapers can do anything but speculate seen as Pj ans SY are not announcing what they're looking for.

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Guest on Fri May 09, 2014 10:24 am

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Funny how the 'Riddler's post is popping up in various different threads.

It's not you, is it, wlbts? laughat

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by Nereid on Fri May 09, 2014 10:25 am

candyfloss wrote:
It has already been removed.

Thank you  roses

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Re: "Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on Fri May 09, 2014 10:27 am

What equipment would a military helicopter have that a civilian or even police helicopter would not?  Infra Red , Very High res-cameras, Ground penetrating RADAR, LIDAR ( LIDAR is my favourite, very powerful technique used by archaeologists to analyse the ground.)

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