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A thread of evidence with sources

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by Guest on 27.04.14 17:03

@tigger wrote:
@Portia wrote:Quite

But how do we explain that the T7 deliberately left the Mecs out at the seaside, and all joined up there at the beach restaurant?
Why on earth would that have happened?

I'm trying to make sense of this particular theory, I believe that as early as the 29th/30th something already had happened and solutions were being found.

Your post fits that theory just fine. the preparations for the 'abduction' that evening. Not the only indication by far.
They didn't have lunch with the others all week either.

Thank you for the Bronzini, forgotten the girl's name just  now: Isabella?

Spot on: 'Bia', 5 yr old daughter of Cosimo de' Medici.
She was bound to be married off, and this portrait served as a teaser to possible interested grooms; but she died before she could be trotted out to anyone

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by Guest on 27.04.14 17:07

@PeterMac wrote:
@Portia wrote:. . .But how do we explain that the T7 deliberately left the Mecs out at the seaside, the last afternoon, and all joined up there at the beach restaurant?
Why on earth would that have happened?
Why did they turn their backs on the Mecs, why did they shirk from them; the very day their child went missing (with hindsight)
Why did the T7 distance themselves from the Mecs, hours before the event?

Or the other way round ?
The Tapas group were 'sent' to the Paraiso, to parade in front of the cameras, and to do nothing else,
so that the absence of Madeleine during that day could not be commented on by anyone.
Which leaves ony the McCanns able to state that Madeleine was there.
But then in true blundering Mitchell fashion they try to augment that with the nonsense about the Last Photo
and try to show that the time and date 'proves' she was alive and well at lunchtime.
In fact, as we know, it does no such thing.
Mitchell was involved, so it has been scrutinised al the more carefully
The time and date shown merely indicates that it has been changed.
The weather shown on the Last Photo can ONLY relate to the Sunday.
They arrived too late on the Saturday, and by Monday the weather had closed in and did not improve until Friday.

So back to the Paraiso, the Tapas group HAD to be kept out of the loop that whole day, and could not be allowed to be in the area of the Tapas bar
until what remained of the family was safely back in the apartment.

Just "purporting" obviously !

OT: just look at the DM today, coming down on the Greens in Brighton;
who pays the piper, or the ferryman?

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by j.rob on 27.04.14 17:46

@tigger wrote:Sorry, I'm not convinced. jW never made a documentary on the case,  Bridget was down there to start an estate agency and managed to get just one article published.
They DID complain that the McCanns were unnecessarily insistent on the time. That's on record.

I don't feel  you've answered my arguments at all. Imo it is rather a stretch to imagine - presumably - a very recently deceased child was transported in a pram. So did Gerry contact JW during the afternoon?  Asking for a small favour?
Because if it wasn't done that day, are you suggesting that there was a plot to kill M and have handy media people along to lend a hand?
So he didn't really need Murat and Murat came over in a hurry for no reason?
Would JW have been part of the swinging group as well?  
In the short time available that afternoon, a safe hiding place was found?  Or was this all planned and the fold-up pram taken along on purpose?

Ps: as I'm poking this out on an iPad, this came after the post before.
the relationship MO/JW is purely subjective reasoning imo. I get the impression that the T 7 cooperated in the circus because they were made to do so. Made them look better and at the sametimethe reconstruction was changed to fit the McC story.
So TM could construct a visual version of their very own truth and tell the world there was a reconstruction. Etc.  spin 


I'm not particularly suggesting anything. The pram just jumped out at me, that's all. Mainly because Jane Tanner makes quite a big deal about it in the Madeleine was Here reconstruction. Plus Jez definitely describes it as a pram in his witness statement whereas Kate calls it a buggy. These details matter. They are important as this is clearly a key encounter at a crucial time, whatever its significance. 

It just got me thinking that a pram would be a good way to conceal evidence, that's all. 

In any case, I still think it is possible that there was a plan for Madeleine to be removed alive from the apartment. 

I don't feel  you've answered my arguments at all. Imo it is rather a stretch to imagine - presumably - a very recently deceased child was transported in a pram. 


I wasn't aware I was under any obligation to answer anyone's arguments!!!  Unfortunately I'm not been paid to do this. Even though I have contributed in taxes to the £10 million that has been spent of tax payers money to supposedly 'find out' what happened to Madeleine.

I am simply suggesting that a pram, or a covered buggy, might be a handy way to remove incriminating evidence of some sort.

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by Guest on 27.04.14 17:53

j.rob
1] you have to be very close or involved to do that
2) MO = Matt Oldfield, not Matt O'Brien [that's Russell].

Sorry to be brief.
Have a flu and a fever :-(

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by j.rob on 27.04.14 18:04

Given that Gerry who, in my opinion, is one of the chief suspects, bumps into someone that he already knows - Jez - on the evening of the alleged disappearance of Madeleine, then Jez is a crucial witness. The nature of the relationship between Jez Wilkins, his partner Bridget O'connell and the McCanns and their friends is obviously highly relevant.

Is he a completely independent witness or could there be some bias? The eulogizing article written by Bridget O'Connell suggest that, she, in any case, is not looking at Madeleine's disappearance with any objectivity.

I am not necessarily suggesting that Jez was there specifically to be an alibi - I am simply saying that he did provide a good alibi. And I do think it is a little odd that he was woken up at 1pm but did not join the searches.

Plus I think some of the things Bridget wrote were weird - such as the link between Madeleine having been missing 3 hours and Jez being told there was nothing he could do. 

I am just curious how long Bridget worked on Crimewatch and how many cases of children being abducted by strangers she covered because statistically it is pretty rare.

And given the very high level of media interest in this case from the very beginning, encouraged by Gerry McCann and his friends, it is quite a coincidence that a former Crimewatch BBC Producer and a Film Maker (of quite sensationalist type documentaries) were in the same place at the same time. And not only that - one of them also saw Gerry on the night of the disappearance.

Plus Bridget talks about how Madeleine must have been in the kids club but she didn't recognize her as there were about 10 blonde pretty girls who all looked the same.

It's just baffling how all those people with all those children just happened not to see Madeleine all that time, or take a photo or her, or ANYTHING.

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by j.rob on 27.04.14 18:22

@gbwales wrote:Although it's not properly referenced or annotated, this list defines itself as sourced from the PJ files and as such is not a bad list of points...

http://lhro.wordpress.com/2013/07/05/195-leads-for-scotland-yard-in-mccann-investigation/



POST DELETED.  It may be your opinion j.rob but you are getting very close to being libellous.  Also please do not involve the twins.

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by tigger on 27.04.14 18:29

@gbwales wrote:Although it's not properly referenced or annotated, this list defines itself as sourced from the PJ files and as such is not a bad list of points...

http://lhro.wordpress.com/2013/07/05/195-leads-for-scotland-yard-in-mccann-investigation/

Unfortunately not the same 195 leads as mentioned by Redwood in (I believe) the 2012 Panorama documentary, if only!

We'd be home and dry.

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by j.rob on 27.04.14 18:52

And it is quite interesting that both Jane Tanner and Jez Wilkins just happened to provide us with the first two 'sightings': 


Jane Tanner gave us 'Tannerman' 


Jez Wilkins gave us 'Rastaman'


And then there was pimpleman and so on and so forth!


From the PJ files: 


I left my apartment pushing my son's pram so that he could sleep. I did not have a particular direction to follow nor did I have a specific time to do this. I left the apartment and turned right. I walked via the lower street, looked to the building block where the McCann apartment was situated and saw a woman dressed in purple clothing. I referred to this woman in relation to the questions asked by Jane Tanner. At the next crossing, I turned right and continued on down the hill. At this point, I saw a man that was coming from the road and was headed to the reception. I believe that he was with a woman but I cannot be precise of any detail about her. It was a tall Caucasian man, with blonde hair in 'rasta style' tied with a band instead of free flowing. When I arrived, I headed to the WC near the pool area. He also was in the WC but appeared to be a taking a long time. I do not remember if he was still in that place when I left. I did not see a woman in that zone. I had never before seen this man and did not see him after this. The next morning, after having become aware of Madeleine's disappearance, we went to breakfast and left the children in the club. Bridget and I returned to the apartment and minutes afterward, a uniformed police officer, accompanied by a British man serving as interpreter, showed up. Later we came to know him as Robert Murat. I do not remember if he gave me his details but recently when I was cleaning a bag, I came across a card with his name and telephone number. I believe that he may have given this to me so that we could contact him in case we had any additional information to offer. The police officer asked us if we had noticed anything out of the normal and Robert Murat translated. I spoke to him of the 'rasta man' and the police officer took some notes on paper. He also noted our names and passport numbers. 


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by Casey5 on 27.04.14 19:51

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Further to the case of the child in the bath mentioned by Bridget O'Donnell - and which has been confirmed already - the child in the garden probably is the dreadful case of Sophie Hook.

I don't think it's ever been explained how the bath attacker knew that the child was there and gained access so I surmise that he too was connected to the family.
No I think he was a stranger probably trying a bit of burglary. The bathroom was an add-on room at the back of the house on the ground floor right next to the back door. The guy was an opportunist who walked in noticed the girl, grabbed her and ran off while the mother was getting towels I think. The child remembered the route she was taken on and could tell police about landmarks she remembered passing - brave little girl, I hope she got counselling.

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by juliet on 27.04.14 19:53

Wilkins and BoD are two media-savvy professionals. Yet at a time when the Mccanns and their mates are rousing the world's press this couple stay quietly in their apartment, peeking out at the searchers. BoD is SO scared for her children she doesn't want Jez to leave the flat. But next morning they dump their kids at the creche, worry free. Doesn't add up.

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by aquila on 27.04.14 20:00

@juliet wrote:Wilkins and BoD are two media-savvy professionals. Yet at a time when the Mccanns and their mates are rousing the world's press this couple stay quietly in their apartment, peeking out at the searchers. BoD is SO scared for her children she doesn't want Jez to leave the flat. But next morning they dump their kids at the creche, worry free. Doesn't add up.
I agree juliet. Their mobile phone traffic would be of interest.

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by j.rob on 28.04.14 13:23

I find Jez's witness statement quite intriguing. He seems to have set off with his pram in a fairly random fashion, and, as he says, walking around in circles as 'some of the walkways did not have an exit'. (Interesting comment in view of the Smithman sighting and the ongoing debates on the Textusa blog etc.)


I left my apartment pushing my son's pram so that he could sleep. I did not have a particular direction to follow nor did I have a specific time to do this. 


As stated in my original deposition, I believe that I left the apartment around 20h30. I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15. I am aware of the importance of this hour and am also aware that the media announced our meeting time as 21h05. Even if this were correct, I have no idea from where such information originated. It is not possible to give you a more exact time. 





 Whilst walking the streets, I was hoping my son would fall asleep. Some of the walkways did not have an exit and for this reason I walked practically in circles. When walking one of these paths, I came across a tourist called Curtis with his girlfriend whose name I do not know. He also knew Gerry from the tennis lessons. I remember passing by them but I assumed they were headed to dinner.



 I remember that Gerry told me if he had stayed another week, he would likely do as I was doing and would stay with the children one night. It appeared as though he was jealous of what I was doing, but given that he was with a big group, he felt the obligation to meet with them every night, and the chosen location was the Tapas bar.



Oh, pull the other one! What a fantastic piece of spin. Sheer rubbish, imo. Gerry shows no inclination to spend much time with his children - 
poor little GM, he would love to stay in the apartment with his family but he has to 'do the decent thing' and is obliged to eat and drink with his mates and therefore leave his children alone every night! So thoughtless of his mates to make him leave his children all alone.


I do not have grand memories of Madeleine but did see her on some occasions with her parents in the creche.


That's just about as vague as you can get.....and he has even placed Kate and Gerry in the creche too! I imagine that the number of times he saw Madeleine in the creche was the same as the number of times he saw Kate and Gerry in the creche. Something around the zero mark, probably which would account for his very hazy memories.


Isn't it funny how amnesia sets in when it comes to sightings of Madeleine, but when it comes to rastaman, pimpleman and other random abductors, memories become remarkably clear?


I had a tennis lesson with Gerry from 10h00 to 11h00. (on 3rd May) After the lesson we went to fetch the children from the creche. I saw Gerry and Kate near the pool relaxing. I remember that they were talking to a British tennis instructor whose name is George or Georgina. I remember that she was telling them a bit about her personal life. Later that day, I went once again to collect the children from the creche and believe I saw them there, but I cannot affirm with exactitude if it was that day or if had been on a previous day. We did not see each other again on this day. 



Again - very vague and quite ambiguous. At first you assume he went with Gerry to pick up their respective children from the creche. But then in the next sentence your realize that is not what he means. And, once more, amnesia has set in when it comes to where Kate, Gerry and Madeleine were on 'the final day'. 


And I'm still interested in Jez's pram which Jane Tanner seemed very keen to mention and to point in a certain direction when she took part in the Edgar reconstructions. With a huge grin on her face - could it be that the pram as well as Kate apparently moaning about Gerry taking a long time 'as he was watching football' are two 'in jokes'? 


We returned to our apartment. We decided to spend the evening in, watching television. Our son was awake and unable to sleep. I decided to take him for a walk in his pram. I left about 8:15 to 8:30 pm. I was pushing the pram around the complex and went to the toilet near the bar. I could not see inside the restaurant. As I got the baby to sleep, I was on my way back to the apartment. I came out at the top road.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm



http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm



Take note of the request of the Portugese police: 


2. In the spirit of Police to Police Cooperation we request the presence of a British Criminal Analyst who may be able to assist the enquiry.
Also the collaboration of the UK's "Child Exploitation Online Protection" may be useful if they wish to send one of their officers to provide assistance to the investigation,



3. We would like further information (by telephonic analysis if thought necessary) relevant to the investigation about the following subjects :
- GERALD McCANN and KATE HEALY contactable on telephone numbers 00447XXXXXXXXX,00441XXXXXXXXX and 00447XXXXXXXXX.
- MATTHEW DAVID OLDFIELD and RACHAEL MAMPILLY, contactable on telephone numbers 00442XXXXXXXXX, 00447XXXXXXXXX and 00447XXXXXXXXX.
- RUSSEL JAMES O'BRIEN and JANE MICHELLE TANNER, contactable on telephone numbers 00447XXXXXXXXX and 00447XXXXXXXXX.
- DAVID ANTHONY PAYNE, contactable on telephone number 00441XXXXXXXXX, FIONA ELAINE PAYNE, contactable on telephone number 00441XXXXXXXXX and DIANNE WEBSTER, contactable on telephone number
00441XXXXXXXXX.

Namely if there is any indication of motive for anyone in the UK to kidnap the daughter of GERALD McCann ?

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by aquila on 28.04.14 13:44

Snipped from j.rob's very interesting post:

3. We would like further information (by telephonic analysis if thought necessary) relevant to the investigation about the following subjects :
- GERALD McCANN and KATE HEALY contactable on telephone numbers 00447XXXXXXXXX,00441XXXXXXXXX and 00447XXXXXXXXX.
- MATTHEW DAVID OLDFIELD and RACHAEL MAMPILLY, contactable on telephone numbers 00442XXXXXXXXX, 00447XXXXXXXXX and 00447XXXXXXXXX.
- RUSSEL JAMES O'BRIEN and JANE MICHELLE TANNER, contactable on telephone numbers 00447XXXXXXXXX and 00447XXXXXXXXX.
- DAVID ANTHONY PAYNE, contactable on telephone number 00441XXXXXXXXX, FIONA ELAINE PAYNE, contactable on telephone number 00441XXXXXXXXX and DIANNE WEBSTER, contactable on telephone number
00441XXXXXXXXX.


Just an observation, the telephone numbers I've highlighted in red are UK landline numbers. Interestingly, the Paynes and DW have no mobile phone numbers quoted in this request and Tanner/O'Brien have no UK landline number quoted. I don't know what that means.

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by j.rob on 28.04.14 13:54

Funny how chilled they are about leaving their children in the kids' club at the resort despite the 'fact' that a (paedophile) abductor stole Madeleine from her bed the evening before. Probably someone - according to the McCanns and friends - who had been 'casing the joint' for some days, watching their movements and ready to 'pounce'. 


The next morning, after having become aware of Madeleine's disappearance, we went to breakfast and left the children in the club.


Yes, good idea! Perhaps rastaman will come back and 'do a job lot' which will keep Murdoch happy. 


Also, notice the inconsistency here. In his first police statement he says: 


The doorbell woke us up at about 1 am. It was the resort manager who I learnt to be John and one of Jerry's friends. I think his name was Matt. He is white, slim, and tall with greying hair. From previous conversations I learnt him to be a diabetics specialist. We met him o the way to the destination. Matt said XXXXX to the effect that Jerry's daughter had been abducted, and that Jerry said that he had met me and wanted to know if I had seen anything. I said 'You're joking'. I offered help but they said there was nothing that could be done at that stage. We remained at the apartment but could see people around the pool and at the front with torches. I also saw the police arriving. We then went to bed.



So which was it? Did Jez learn of Madleine's disappearance at 1 am or do he learn about it 'the next morning' when he and his partner (remember she worked on Crimewatch so knows all about predatory abductors and how to avoid them) were so terrified that they 'went to breakfast and left the kids in the kids club.'


What a crock of sh**!

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by j.rob on 28.04.14 17:43

We returned to our apartment. We decided to spend the evening in, watching television. Our son was awake and unable to sleep. I decided to take him for a walk in his pram. I left about 8:15 to 8:30 pm. I was pushing the pram around the complex and went to the toilet near the bar. I could not see inside the restaurant. As I got the baby to sleep, I was on my way back to the apartment. I came out at the top road.


There is something slightly odd about the way that Jez has recounted this episode. It doesn't ring true. 

If Jez was nothing more than a completely independent tourist in the hotel with no vested interests at all in the McCanns or anything apart from having a family holiday, surely he would want to explain the circumstances a little more? 

Apart from anything, he wouldn't want to look suspicious in any way at all, would he? Given that he was, allegedly, the last person to see and speak with Gerry before Madeleine disappeared and seeing as he was walking around the resort with a pram?

A man with a pram is seen outside the McCann's apartment at around the time that the McCann's allege that their daughter was abducted.  Clearly, he would be a key person for police to rule out as having any involvement in Madeleine's disappearance. And clearly the PJ were extremely interested in his relationship with the McCAnns. 

As far as the McCanns are concerned, how could they know that for sure that he was not the abductor with Madeleine sedated (as they claimed she was) and concealed in the pram? You would think, would you not, that when Kate discovered Madeleine 'had been taken' Gerry would immediately cast his mind back to the events of the evening and think about having seen his  tennis partner - who is nothing more than an acquaintance he met on holiday, allegedly, and think - 'blimey, what was Jez doing with that pram outside our apartment at 9.05pm when I did the last check? He seemed like a nice enough bloke but.......

........if only I had looked inside the pram, just to make sure that it really was his child in there and not Madeleine.......

Jez' witness statement is strangely bland: 

'I decided to take him for a walk in his pram', doesn't really make much sense. You would expect him to say something like: 'the baby wasn't settling, was quite fretful that evening. Although we hadn't eaten yet, we decided that it would be a good idea to walk him around in the pram. That usually got him to sleep quite quickly. I decided to do this and while I was gone Bridget was going to get dinner ready/have a bath.....blah, blah....


And then Jez needs to answer a call of nature, as Gerry too had done, allegedly, in the apartment at 9pm. So Jez ends up in the toilet of the Tapas bar where he spots Rastaman! 

Ha - you couldn't make it up......or could you!!

(This is reminding me more and more of the Tale of Little Red Riding Hood.)

Madeleine, RIP.

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by Guest on 28.04.14 18:08

j.rob wrote:


As far as the McCanns are concerned, how could they know that for sure that he was not the abductor with Madeleine sedated (as they claimed she was) and concealed in the pram? You would think, would you not, that when Kate discovered Madeleine 'had been taken' Gerry would immediately cast his mind back to the events of the evening and think about having seen his  tennis partner - who is nothing more than an acquaintance he met on holiday, allegedly, and think - 'blimey, what was Jez doing with that pram outside our apartment at 9.05pm when I did the last check? He seemed like a nice enough bloke but.......

........if only I had looked inside the pram, just to make sure that it really was his child in there and not Madeleine.......

G.McCann said that he had seen Madeleine on his last check,  so the above is not possible, otherwise it contradicts himself.

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by Guest on 28.04.14 18:19

Exactly.
Can we go on other pastures ... ?

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by Guest on 28.04.14 18:44

Châtelaine wrote:Exactly.
Can we go on other pastures ... ?


Good idea, thegoat said this on the opening post of the thread...


Could we make a sticky thread which clearly states the facts of the case with a source (the police files or a direct quote) that does not come from rumour or an unnamed source used by a newspaper etc.

That way it will be easier for new and old members to immediately see the facts of the case and inconsistencies in statements etc without wondering if they are just reading an opinion or a rumour.



I don't think this is what thegoat had in mind, and we have probably had enough discussion on this one subject, it really should be kept to just facts and sources.

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Re: A thread of evidence with sources

Post by j.rob on 29.04.14 15:54

candyfloss wrote:
j.rob wrote:


As far as the McCanns are concerned, how could they know that for sure that he was not the abductor with Madeleine sedated (as they claimed she was) and concealed in the pram? You would think, would you not, that when Kate discovered Madeleine 'had been taken' Gerry would immediately cast his mind back to the events of the evening and think about having seen his  tennis partner - who is nothing more than an acquaintance he met on holiday, allegedly, and think - 'blimey, what was Jez doing with that pram outside our apartment at 9.05pm when I did the last check? He seemed like a nice enough bloke but.......

........if only I had looked inside the pram, just to make sure that it really was his child in there and not Madeleine.......

G.McCann said that he had seen Madeleine on his last check,  so the above is not possible, otherwise it contradicts himself.


Fair enough.....although Kate has claimed that the abductor could have been hiding in the apartment when Gerry checked at 9.05 which strikes me as pretty ludicrous.

Both GM and KM contradict themselves the whole time. At no time did they think there was any risk of their children being abducted, until Madeleine 'disappeared' by which time it became the first thing they thought had happened.

 In any event, Wilkins is a key figure for all sorts of reasons.  The fact that Jez Wilkins is wandering around the resort with a pram at around the time that Madeleine 'went missing' is not something that is irrelevant as he is a crucial eye witness, apart from anything else. 

While initially he appeared to be very supportive (saying Gerry was entirely unflustered and so on) of the McCanns I wonder if subsequently he got cold feet for some reason? 

I notice that the executive producer of one of the C4 Cutting Edge Madeleine was Here episodes (which I think provide some very revealing 'evidence' ) - Steve Anderson - has worked extensively on Question Time. So would presumably know Jeremy Paxman who, judging by his interview with Gerry, is not exactly the biggest McCann fan.

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