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3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by plebgate on Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:18 pm

It is very sad.  

The neighbour and friends have reportedly said she was an excellent and very caring mother, what a terrible thing to have happened.   sad

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:40 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england/27151343#"

Their mother has now been charged with murder.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by Tony Bennett on Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:01 pm

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england/27151343#"

Their mother has now been charged with murder.
There is a possible, if remote, connection here with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

The article linked above concludes this (last) sentence:

"Their father, Gary, who works as a Director at City bank Investec, was said to be away in the family's native South Africa with the couple's eight-year-old daughter when the deaths occurred".

+++++++++++++

There is an article: "Gary Hagland - The ‘mysterious seventh man’ in the McCann Team private investigations", written by Felicity Hathaway, and on the 'WhatHappenedtoMadeleine McCann' blog which includeds these few paragraphs:

Gary Hagland - The ‘mysterious seventh man’ in the McCann Team private investigations by Felicity Hathaway

In September 2007 he was hired by Brian Kennedy. Kennedy had set up a base for his private investigations into Madeleine’s disappearance at a house in Knutsford, Cheshire, close to his home in Swettenham and to Wilmslow, the base for his Latium Group business empire.
Hagland resigned from the McCann Team in March 2008 - around the time the McCann Team hired Kevin Halligen as their lead investigator at a cost of £500,000 plus expenses.

In August of the same year, Hagland he became a Director of Investec Gresham II Ltd, resigning a few weeks later on 30 September.

Investec Gresham II Ltd appears to be an investment fund, one of dozens of subsidiary companies of the international banking group, Investec (currently the subject of litigation in South Africa). A search of Investec Group companies shows that many of their investment funds appear to be placed for their clients in low tax havens such as the Cayman Islands, Jersey and Switzerland.    

Also, on 15 August 2008, Hagland became a Director of Investec Trust Holdings Ltd (ITH). At the time of his appointment, most of his fellow Directors of ITH were living in tax havens, thus:

Richard David Williams – Channel Islands
Robert Clifford – Channel Islands
Brian Williams – Channel Islands
James Michael Spittal – Channel Islands
Keith Hamilton Turberville – Channel Islands
Steven John Heilbron – South African Banker
Xavier Michel Louis Isaac – Switzerland.

It appears that Hagland remains a Director of this company to this day.


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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by lj on Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:45 am

God, how sad. How is what is left of this family going to survive?

Tony, if you can answer: Do you think it is the Gary Hagland? That would make the case even more complicated.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by ultimaThule on Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:27 am

It's interesting that Gary Hagland who, according to this thread http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t7311-gary-hagland-the-mysterious-seventh-man-in-the-mccann-team-private-investigations#164376 is now 59 years old, is a fellow director of 43 year old South African 'trained lawyer' Gary Clarence who is the father of the 3 murdered children, TB, and I wonder whether their paths have crossed at board meetings and the like.

However, perhaps this can be explored elsewhere as, given the subject matter, it seems somewhat out of place here and, more particularly, when Mrs Clarence has been charged with the murder of her 3 young disabled children and will be appearing in the Magistrates Court later today when I hope she will be remanded into the care of a mental health facility where she can get the care, understanding, and treatment, she undoubtedly needs. 

This is a tragic case and, on the surface at least, appears to be one which could not have been predicted. My sympathies are with both parents and with their 8 year old eldest daughter whose world as she knew it has been so abruptly turned upside down. 

RIP Olivia, Ben, and Max - together in death as in life.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by lj on Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:51 am

The Gary hagland suffered very much under what he knew from the Madeleine case. Something what, had he been the father, might have complicated the breakdown of the mother.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by Tony Bennett on Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:28 am

@lj wrote:
Tony, if you can answer: Do you think it is the Gary Hagland? That would make the case even more complicated.
No, no, not at all.

I was merely drawing attention to the Investec link.

The ages of the two Garys are quite wrong anyway, and I don't think Gary Hagland ever married

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by russiandoll on Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:52 am

I hope this mother was not alone caring for her 3 disabled under 5's while Dad and a fourth child were abroad. Much help from visiting carers from Social Services I would imagine, but they usually visit to assist with getting up in the morning and settling down at night routines.

 Sad beyond words what has happened here. The family is broken and I do not know how those left will cope, seems as if Dad and a single child will be left while the mother gets the support and care that is needed for her mental and emotional health.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:34 am

rd: from this article it seems that the family had help during the day but not evenings/overnight as they wanted some normal family
time together.  A tragic story.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/24/tania-clarence-charged-murder-three-children


A huge press presence outside the court this morning.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by lj on Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:57 pm

Thanks, Tony.

This case again goes to show you never know how much someone is suffering. It must be absolutely devastating on the family and friends.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by ultimaThule on Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:23 pm

Mrs Clarence's family are undoubtedly devastated but, hopefully, they will at least be able to derive some comfort from each other during the coming weeks, whereas she may have to come to terms with the far-reaching consequences of her actions in what can be the hostile and unforgiving environment of a women's prison.

I sincerely hope this obviously distraught woman has been put on 24-hour suicide watch and that her lawyers move to have her remanded to a secure psychiatric unit at the earliest opportunity.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by diatribe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:58 am

@ultimaThule wrote: whereas she may have to come to terms with the far-reaching consequences of her actions in what can be the hostile and unforgiving environment of a women's prison.


Are you speaking from first hand experience? Ultima.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by Guest on Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:27 am

I take this to mean that prisoners (male and female) are not known for their tolerance of people accused or convicted of hideous crimes against children - e.g. creatures like the mothers and partners of victims such as Peter Connolly (Baby P) and Daniel Pelka.

I would hope that - assuming that this is a case of a loving mother who snapped under the stress of caring for three terminally ill children - Tania Clarence will receive only sympathy and understanding.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by diatribe on Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:38 pm

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I take this to mean that prisoners (male and female) are not known for their tolerance of people accused or convicted of hideous crimes against children - e.g. creatures like the mothers and partners of victims such as Peter Connolly (Baby P) and Daniel Pelka.


For the record, I wasn't in any way intimating that Ultima had ever been accused or convicted of crimes of a sexual nature.  I was merely enquiring if her referral to harsh conditions in women's prisons were based on personal experience. It was a generalisation and not directed at any specific crime.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by lj on Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:38 pm

I think that the disdain prisoners feel for people who did something wrong to children is universal. Generally they don't last long.
I also despise criminals who hurt children and I don't mind at all they get a good beating once in a while.
On the other side, do they really think it is OK to kill a mother or a father? Doesn't that hurt the child very badly too?

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by ultimaThule on Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:22 am

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I take this to mean that prisoners (male and female) are not known for their tolerance of people accused or convicted of hideous crimes against children - e.g. creatures like the mothers and partners of victims such as Peter Connolly (Baby P) and Daniel Pelka.

I would hope that - assuming that this is a case of a loving mother who snapped under the stress of caring for three terminally ill children - Tania Clarence will receive only sympathy and understanding.
I had something of that in mind when I posted last Friday evening, NFWTD, but my concern began when, having spent some hours in police custody after discovery of the bodies of her profoundly disabled young children, Mrs Clarence was arrested last Tuesday evening. 

We know that her husband and other relatives arrived in the UK on Thursday but what we don't know is whether he was allowed to see his wife prior to her appearance in court on Friday morning, or whether he'd been able to speak to her and arrange for her to be legally represented before he flew home from South Africa.  

Effectively, we don't know whether Mrs Clarence asked for, or was appointed, a solicitor during the time she was in police custody or whether she was allowed to see any friend or relative (if she has any wider family members living in the UK) who may have been asked to bring items of clothing/toiletries to her during the 3 days/nights she was accomodated in a police station cell and, in addition, we don't know whether she asked for, or was examined by, a police or other doctor during this period.

Police officers can be surprisingly sympathetic in such circumstances, but their sympathy may not have extended to making any special provision for Mrs Clarence beyond that of reassuring words and extra cups of tea.

It's probable that after her appearance in court on Friday Mrs Clarence was taken to Holloway prison, an establishment whose inherent and other shortcomings are well documented and which should have been demolished long ago.  As no concessions are made for newly remanded prisoners she may have had to wait until yesterday before family members were allowed to visit her or, indeed, may still be waiting for visiting orders to be received by those she wants to see.  

While I have no doubt that prison staff and inmates will treat Mrs Clarence with kindness, there can be no guarantee that all those she encounters will be so minded.  While Mrs Clarence may also find this to be the case when she is returned to society, it's my opinion that at the present time she should be in a wholly supportive user-friendly environment where, aided by mental health professionals, she can begin to process the traumatic events of the past week, together with those of the past 3-4 years. 

It's my understanding that Mrs Clarence will appear in court again early next week, at which time it's to be hoped her counsel will request that she be remanded to a secure psychiatric unit of their choice subject to the court's approval of the establishment. 

I feel so very sorry for this mother and, from what is known, it seems to me that any sentence a court may hand down will be of short duration compared to her long lasting grief.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:59 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-27205017

Mrs Clarence has been detained in hospital which I certainly feel is the right decision.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by ultimaThule on Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:09 pm

If I was of a religious persuasion I'd be giving thanks to a god, but as it is I'm immensely relieved that Mrs Clarence is being properly represented and that her counsel have taken the appropriate steps to ensure she's been removed from the prison sysem, NFWTD.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by diatribe on Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:29 pm

ultimaThule


As no concessions are made for newly remanded prisoners



They do get to spend their first night in what is euphemistically referred to as the 'Hotel suite.'

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by PeterMac on Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:30 pm

@ultimaThule wrote:If I was of a religious persuasion I'd be giving thanks to a god, .

Sorry to disagree, but I would be quite cross with a God which inflicted terminal illness on children.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by ultimaThule on Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:53 pm

You make a persuasive point, PeterM, but if I'd been raised in a faith I may be misguided enough to believe that god doesn't give any burdens to those who are unable to bear them and other such claptrap platitudes, along with the promise of jam tomorrow in the afterlife provided I lived my life in uncomplaining compliance with the religious dictat of self-serving church elders . 

If I believed in such fiction I might not dare to be cross with the god of my belief for fear that I'd end up in a place not dissimilar from a scene depicted by Bosch who, as far as I'm aware, did not have occasion to visit Holloway Prison but, nevertheless, was able to capture its essence on canvas. 

It's just occurred to me that, given the length of time it took them to issue 'the last photo', it would have not only been quicker for the McCanns to employ an artist to paint a likeness of their eldest daughter on a tennis court, but would also have given no cause for speculation as to the date it was created  smilie

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by Snifferdog on Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:49 pm

You are correct ultimaThule, one cannot earn a place in the hereafter, but it is freely given to those that have faith. Fortunately the church elders are not gods, so in the end their made up rules, opinions and laws are their own, not Gods, who only has 10 laws - the 10 commandments. Given to us so that we may have a healthy, ethical framework to live by.
God does not afflict us with disabilities, accidents etc to see how we cope, and thereby earn our place in the hereafter. Just the fall of the dice, or sadly, it may be the consequences of peoples actions.

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:53 pm

@Snifferdog wrote:You are correct ultimaThule, one cannot earn a place in the hereafter, but it is freely given to those that have faith. Fortunately the church elders are not gods, so in the end their made up rules, opinions and laws are their own, not Gods, who only has 10 laws - the 10 commandments. Given to us so that we may have a healthy, ethical framework to live by.
God does not afflict us with disabilities, accidents etc to see how we cope, and thereby earn our place in the hereafter. Just the fall of the dice, or sadly, it may be the consequences of peoples actions.

Remind me, how many people were slaughtered at the foot of Mount Sinai on Moses' return with the ten commandments? ;-)

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Re: 3 children found dead in New Malden, Surrey

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:01 pm

You mean the 3,000 worshipping the Golden Calf?

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