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South Korea ferry disaster

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by russiandoll on 20.04.14 11:29

@PeterMac wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
IMO anything is better, than being locked in a sinking ship
Now imagine you are on a submarine !

  I strongly recommend the wonderful German drama DAS BOOT for an insight into submarine claustrophobia.

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by PeterMac on 20.04.14 11:52

Châtelaine wrote:Reportedly one diver has lost his life already  sad 

If that is true is really is tragic.
To give or to lose your life trying to save another is one thing, but to do so in the attempt simply to recover a body is indescribably pointless.

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by aquila on 20.04.14 11:56

@PeterMac wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:Reportedly one diver has lost his life already  sad 

If that is true is really is tragic.
To give or to lose your life trying to save another is one thing, but to do so in the attempt simply to recover a body is indescribably pointless.
Anyone who dives into water to rescue or recover is a hero in my book.

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by PeterMac on 20.04.14 12:32

@aquila wrote:
Anyone who dives into water to rescue or recover is a hero in my book.
But the rules you impose on yourself and on others in the different situations are - well - different.
Rescue and recovery are not to be confused.
The one has to be done now, the other can wait until you have the proper equipment and team structure worked out.

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by lj on 20.04.14 17:55

@russiandoll wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
IMO anything is better, than being locked in a sinking ship
Now imagine you are on a submarine !

  I strongly recommend the wonderful German drama DAS BOOT for an insight into submarine claustrophobia.

"Wonderful"?
It gives a very realistic picture of warfare, which, from which side you look at it, is never "wonderful".

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by Guest on 20.04.14 18:21

I've seen a lot of films, both privately and professionally. But I have never watched this one. I have the DVD now, but am still hesitant to view. I know ... I will one day ...

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by russiandoll on 20.04.14 20:43

@lj wrote:
@russiandoll wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
IMO anything is better, than being locked in a sinking ship
Now imagine you are on a submarine !

  I strongly recommend the wonderful German drama DAS BOOT for an insight into submarine claustrophobia.

"Wonderful"?
It gives a very realistic picture of warfare, which, from which side you look at it, is never "wonderful".

 It must get quite uncomfortable up there on that high horse of yours, lj. Please go and look at some synonyms for the adjective I used and you will note the following :
  fine, excellent, superb  [amongst others.]

 I did not describe war as wonderful. I said that the DRAMA , A WORK OF FICTION, was excellent.

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by PeterMac on 20.04.14 22:11

@russiandoll wrote:
 I did not describe war as wonderful. I said that the DRAMA , A WORK OF FICTION, was excellent.
It is only JUST a work of fiction.
I was a police diver.
I have been inside a pressure chamber for 6 hours, doing a "dry dive" for training purposes (Stoney Cove, in Leicestershire, if any really wants to know)
pressured "up" and then "down" and always at the mercy of the person on the outside to get it right.
Claustrophobia is one of the things you select against when choosing a diving team.

As with submariners.
They have to pass two tests.
1 Claustrophobia
2 Flatulence

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by lj on 20.04.14 23:28

@russiandoll wrote:
@lj wrote:
@russiandoll wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
IMO anything is better, than being locked in a sinking ship
Now imagine you are on a submarine !

  I strongly recommend the wonderful German drama DAS BOOT for an insight into submarine claustrophobia.

"Wonderful"?
It gives a very realistic picture of warfare, which, from which side you look at it, is never "wonderful".

 It must get quite uncomfortable up there on that high horse of yours, lj. Please go and look at some synonyms for the adjective I used and you will note the following :
  fine, excellent, superb  [amongst others.]

 I did not describe war as wonderful. I said that the DRAMA , A WORK OF FICTION, was excellent.

Whoooa, high horse? Have you looked at your own posts?

Wonderful is a bad description for anything that has to do with war.

ETA

I guess you have to live with the results of war to understand that even a work of fiction can hurt. Not an uncommon phenomena. For those to describe this work as fine, excellent, superb, or wonderful would be incomprehensible.

Maybe it's too much to ask to understand that. Afterall it's easier to criticize than emphasize.

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by Guest on 21.04.14 8:56

Talking of horses, I'm going to see WarHorse in a few months' time, the stage play based on Michael Morpugo's novel set at the outbreak of World War One.  
WarHorseOnStage.com.  Take a look at the reviews if you're interested.

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by russiandoll on 21.04.14 9:01

To prevent this becoming tedious this will be my last post re submarine life, lj.

 quote  " For those to describe this work as fine, excellent, superb, or wonderful would be incomprehensible.

Maybe it's too much to ask to understand that. Afterall it's easier to criticize than emphasize. " 

 I invite you to choose an appropriate adjective to describe this drama which won much praise for its acting and direction.  I think it only fair seeing as you have now said that even words like excellent and fine are inappropriate if I wish to praise a truly great series.

 Secondly, I do not understand your remarks here about criticism and empathy  [ I think you meant empathise here?]. it was you who decided to be pedantic and pick apart the use of one adjective from me...you are the critical one.

  Surely you are not suggesting that because I describe a  war drama as excellent/wonderful/superb, that I am not aware of the horrors of warfare ?

   Das Boot was not a documentary, but a gripping , authentic and very tense drama about submariners on the hunt for and being hunted down by the enemy. It was rightly praised by many as being one of the best series in many years with an unforgettable performance by Jurgen Prochnow. The viewer could almost feel the claustrophobia and the tension. I first saw it as a tv series but it works better as a film seen at one sitting imo.

Without doubt the best film dealing with war that I have ever seen. I recommend the director's cut.

  re Petermac's comments on submarine life...this is what life is like for present-day submariners. Imagine life on board one of the WW2 subs...


   "There are certain unique aspects to the working environment in a submarine..
– No personal space whatsoever
– No escape from workplace conflicts
– No sunlight for long periods
– Disrupted sleep/wake cycles and sleep deprivation
– Concern for danger of excessive sea pressure
– Concern for danger from enemy targets
• Socially intense, physically-closed, and potentially dangerous working environment
• Conclusion: The submarine environment demands psychological resilience to workplace stressors"

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by PeterMac on 21.04.14 14:45

Back on track . . .
It is reported that they have arrested some more of the crew.
Also that the president has condemned the actions of the crew in somewhat immoderate terms - "tantamount to murder" was one of the more lurid translations.
Nothing like prejudicing a proper enquiry and trial !

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by russiandoll on 21.04.14 18:25

latest :

 
Investigations are focusing on whether the vessel took too sharp a turn - perhaps destabilising the vessel - before it started listing and whether an earlier evacuation order could have saved lives.


Sewol communications excerpt  :


Controller: "Please go out and let the passengers wear life jackets and put on more clothing."
Crew member: "If this ferry evacuates passengers, will you be able to rescue them?''
Controller: "At least make them wear life rings and make them escape.''
Crew member: "If this ferry evacuates passengers, will they be rescued right away?''
Controller: "Don't let them go bare. At least make them wear life rings and make them escape... We don't know the situation very well. The captain should make the final decision and decide whether you're going to evacuate passengers or not."
Crew member: "I'm not talking about that. I asked, if they evacuate now, can they be rescued right away?''


Details of the panic and indecision on the bridge emerged on Sunday, when the coastguard released a transcript of the last communications between the crew and controllers.

In the transcript, a crew member repeatedly asks if vessels are on hand to rescue passengers if evacuation is ordered.

The captain, Lee Joon-seok, has said he delayed the move for fear people would drift away.

Mr Lee, 69, was not on the bridge when the ferry began listing. It was steered by a third mate who had never navigated the waters where the accident occurred, prosecutors said on Saturday.

The captain and two other crew members have been charged with negligence of duty and violation of maritime law.

Four more crew members were reported to have been detained on Monday over allegations they failed to protect passengers.

Investigators had also banned the head of ferry operator Chonghaejin Marine and its largest shareholder from leaving the country, Yonhap said.

It has since emerged that Mr Lee appeared in a promotional video for the journey four years ago, describing the ferry journey as safe as long as the passengers followed the crew's instructions.

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by lj on 22.04.14 0:16

Yes indeed empathise. When you daily use 4 languages, things sometimes get mixed up, especially if English is not even your second language. I guess you can use several languages at the same time without making mistakes.

I will tell every KZ syndrome sufferer they should not get upset about movies, because they are not real, and that their reaction is tedious, and not real either.

Please give me an ignore button.








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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by aiyoyo on 22.04.14 7:00

@PeterMac wrote:Back on track . . .
It is reported that they have arrested some more of the crew.
Also that the president has condemned the actions of the crew in somewhat immoderate terms - "tantamount to murder" was one of the more lurid translations.
Nothing like prejudicing a proper enquiry and trial !

The ratio of surviving crews to surviving children is disproportionate and in the crews favour.
Try as one may it's difficult to understand how crews can evacuate and abandon ship ahead of those children.
Failure to get the passengers to wear life jackets in useful time on Controller's instruction shows crews were ignoring command to the detriment of the children. No doubt a series of mistakes compounded the accident. The circumstantial evidence against captain and crews was strong that they let down those children and  in an emotion-charged situation inevitably these men are going to be publicly persecuted.
Prejudice of a proper enquiry and fair trial will not be on the list when it comes to prosecution.  
Their actions or rather lack off will be sticking points and their reasons explanation will be seen as brass incompetence hence having no validity.  No matter what, their defence will predictably end up being largely inadmissible.

Most if not all of the crews will end up in the dock and jail awaits at least 1/2 a dozen of them.
The detail of their negligence may not be known fully but what is apparent is there seems to be lack of coordination amongst crews.  The surviving children acting as witnesses will be useful to the Court.

Irrespective of the reasons the crew may give, it is be rather difficult for people to grasp how 20 crew members out of 30 can manage to evacuate ahead of the children whose evacuation they are tasked with.
The rule of the thumb for crews must surely be to ensure passengers are evacuated then only you follow suite after every passenger under your charge is safe and you are the last to evacuate. On that principle alone the conclusion against them is damning to start with.

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by tigger on 22.04.14 7:28

I did a breakdown of the Titanic survivors ones to prove a point to a Canadian friend who believed all 1st class passengers were saved and the third class was purposely left to fend for themselves.

Iirc in percentages of each group:
Highest % survivors were the crew.
Lowest % survivors  males  first class.
Lowest % survivors of women were from third class.

I travel frequently by Stenaline ferry to Harwich. Usually nightboat but always check nearest mustering point.
I'd never consider staying below deck in an emergency.
A friend of mine always travels with a strong and long nylon rope after he escaped a hotel fire.
Accidents happen, incompetent people may be in charge, people panic.
In the same way, when I'm a passenger in a car, I check where the door handles  are.
Makes me sound paranoid, but it has twice been of great use to me.

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by PeterMac on 22.04.14 8:49

@aiyoyo wrote:
Irrespective of the reasons the crew may give,  it is be rather difficult for people to grasp how 20 crew members out of 30 can manage to evacuate ahead of the children whose evacuation they are tasked with.
The rule of the thumb for crews must surely be to ensure passengers are evacuated then only you follow suit after every passenger under your charge is safe and you are the last to evacuate.   On that principle alone the conclusion against them is damning to start with.

Not necessarily.
The passengers are below decks, in cabins and dining rooms.
The ship is now on its side and gradually rolling over, so doors have slammed shut, it is largely flooded, and furniture makes it impossible to move around.
The dining room which used to be 3m high and 25 m wide is now 25 m high and 3 m wide. And everything it once contained is in a smashed mess at the 'bottom'.
It is also pitch dark.
You are a crew member who was summoned on deck, and the ship now sinks gradually beneath your feet.
There does come a point at which there is NOTHING more you can reasonably do, except give your life as a useless and futile gesture.

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by Guest on 22.04.14 9:44

@tigger wrote: [...]
I travel frequently by Stenaline ferry to Harwich. Usually nightboat but always check nearest mustering point.
I'd never consider staying below deck in an emergency.
A friend of mine always travels with a strong and long nylon rope after he escaped a hotel fire.
Accidents happen, incompetent people may be in charge, people panic.
In the same way, when I'm a passenger in a car, I check where the door handles  are.
Makes me sound paranoid, but it has twice been of great use to me.
***
There's nothing paranoid about that, Tigger. I have traveled much in my life. My first action upon arriving in my hotelroom e.g., was to find where the nearest emergency exit is, check if it wasn't locked and then walk from my room to the exit with my eyes closed. Smoke being the biggest handicap to find you way ...

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by PeterMac on 22.04.14 11:39

Châtelaine wrote:
@tigger wrote:
Makes me sound paranoid, but it has twice been of great use to me.
***
There's nothing paranoid about that, Tigger. I have traveled much in my life. My first action upon arriving in my hotelroom e.g., was to find where the nearest emergency exit is, check if it wasn't locked and then walk from my room to the exit with my eyes closed. Smoke being the biggest handicap to find you way ...
And whilst we are on the subject
always remember that smoke RISES.
If you are ever in the vicinity of a fire, or lots of smoke, you can crawl around on the floor where there is a layer of relatively clean air.
It is very surprising the first time you experience it.
We used to take the recruit Pcs to the local Fire training centre in Ryton so they could have a "go" in the fire room, and get some more very basic Dos and Don'ts from the fire officers.


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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by Guest on 22.04.14 13:33

That's what I would have done, Peter, in case of a fire. But it was already "funny" enough for other guests to see me walking with eyes closed, let alone be crawling ...  big grin 

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by aiyoyo on 22.04.14 15:15

@PeterMac wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
Irrespective of the reasons the crew may give,  it is be rather difficult for people to grasp how 20 crew members out of 30 can manage to evacuate ahead of the children whose evacuation they are tasked with.
The rule of the thumb for crews must surely be to ensure passengers are evacuated then only you follow suit after every passenger under your charge is safe and you are the last to evacuate.   On that principle alone the conclusion against them is damning to start with.

Not necessarily.
The passengers are below decks, in cabins and dining rooms.  
The ship is now on its side and gradually rolling over, so doors have slammed shut, it is largely flooded, and furniture makes it impossible to move around.
The dining room which used to be 3m high and 25 m wide is now 25 m high and 3 m wide. And everything it once contained is in a smashed mess at the 'bottom'.
It is also pitch dark.
You are a crew member who was summoned on deck, and the ship now sinks gradually beneath your feet.
There does come a point at which there is NOTHING more you can reasonably do, except give your life as a useless and futile gesture.

The ship took 2 hours to sink, sufficient time to get everyone from lower decks to higher levels.
When the explosion happens it would have been heard by everyone. You'd expect crews to react and act promptly to order passengers to evacuate from cabins and dinner room make their way to higher decks and put on their life jackets ready to abandon ship.
Anything short of that is negligence.
Knowing people are trapped in lower decks and not doing anything to help them evacuate because you have given up hope on them would tantamount to murder as rightly alleged by the Korean Authority.

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by PeterMac on 22.04.14 15:55

@aiyoyo wrote:
Knowing people are trapped in lower decks and not doing anything to help them evacuate because you have given up hope on them would tantamount to murder as rightly alleged by the Korean Authority.  

Once a ship has listed beyond a certain point it becomes impossible to walk on the floor.
The wall becomes the new floor and the floor becomes the new wall.
Then you have real problems.
Consider a cross channel ferry. The internal walkways along each side of the ship are probably 5 m wide.
To pass into the dining area there is a heavy double door, in the centre.
With the ship on its side - still not upside down, you are now in a passageway 5 m HIGH, and the door is 3 m above you. The door is too heavy for you to move.
Even if you gain access to the dining area you are now possibly 20 m up the wall in a room 28m deep and 4m wide.
What are you going to do now ?
There are no convenient handholds, or ladders, or ropes,
everything moveable has fallen to the bottom of the room,
and it is pitch dark.
I have been inside sunken vessels as part of my training (and recreation !) and still have no answers about what I would do in those circumstances.

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by Guest on 22.04.14 18:31

Recreation ... ? Boys will always be boys, Peter  smilie 

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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by aiyoyo on 22.04.14 18:44

@PeterMac wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
Knowing people are trapped in lower decks and not doing anything to help them evacuate because you have given up hope on them would tantamount to murder as rightly alleged by the Korean Authority.  

Once a ship has listed beyond a certain point it becomes impossible to walk on the floor.
The wall becomes the new floor and the floor becomes the new wall.  
Then you have real problems.
Consider a cross channel ferry.  The internal walkways along each side of the ship are probably 5 m wide.
To pass into the dining area there is a heavy double door, in the centre.
With the ship on its side - still not upside down, you are now in a passageway 5 m HIGH, and the door is 3 m above you.  The door is too heavy for you to move.
Even if you gain access to the dining area you are now possibly 20 m up the wall in a room 28m deep and 4m wide.
What are you going to do now ?
There are no convenient handholds, or ladders, or ropes,
everything moveable has fallen to the bottom of the room,
and it is pitch dark.

I have been inside sunken vessels as part of my training (and recreation !) and still have no answers about what I would do in those circumstances.

But surely listing beyond access point is a slow process with pocket time in between that people can still be helped.
I'd not imagine the side of the ship to be immediately vertical that floor becomes wall and vice versus rendering it impossible to exit or access.
Of course I know nothing about how fast a listed ship can disappear into the ocean, but two hours as reported that it took the ship to sink completely into the water would seem to me sufficient for more people to make it to upper decks had they received prompt order to vacant lower decks.
Until we know the details of what transpired it is anyone's guess how evacuation was handled, whether the crews were derelict in their duties to order immediate evacuation.




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Re: South Korea ferry disaster

Post by PeterMac on 22.04.14 23:04

@aiyoyo wrote:
But surely listing beyond access point is a slow process with pocket time in between that people can still be helped.
I'd not imagine the side of the ship to be immediately vertical that floor becomes wall and vice versus rendering it impossible to exit or access.
Of course I know nothing about how fast a listed ship can disappear into the ocean, but two hours as reported that it took the ship to sink completely into the water would seem to me sufficient for more people to make it to upper decks had they received prompt order to vacant lower decks.
Until we know the details of what transpired it is anyone's guess how evacuation was handled, whether the crews were derelict in their duties to order immediate evacuation.

I believe on the evidence that the listing was a fairly fast process in this case, it may be that the vehicles and deck cargo shifted for lack of proper restraint. I don't know, but that is certainly a possibility.
(I have travelled on several Cross channel and Biscay ferries 'Post Zebrugge" and saw how the once open car decks were chopped off into separate compartments.)
but it still does not excuse the crew from having given the proper orders.
Staying below decks is NOT an option - folks. It is a death penalty.
If you think there is a problem get OUT. And on a ship that means "upwards"
You need to be on Deck.

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