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Contemporaneous: the first recall

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Monty Heck on 15.04.14 21:25

Nightfly has rightly pointed out the effect of adrenaline on recall, particularly in the case of major life experiences.  Yet in this case, recall seems vague not sharp.  Witness statements mention running around, mainly in the direction of the beach and in some cases more than once, without much explanation but what is striking is the lack of detail.  Nobody mentions the routes they took, or whether they went to the rocky area or the sandy area, or both, of the main beach or even whether they went to the little cove by The Bull.  Considering the amount of searching of "the beach area" claimed by the T9 the lack of any detail is quite striking.

Another detail which seems to be missing fom the intial T9 searching is that, at that time and also for months afterwards, PDL streets were littered with excavation trenches for sewage pipes.  These were large, deep holes, surrounded by piles of excavated earth and stones and the usual cones and marker tape, and surely worthy of particular notice during a search for a potentially woken and wandered child left in unsecured premises.  Rather than these being a focus for thorough  examination in case the child had fallen in, there is not even a mention of their existence, yet anyone (genuinely) running around searching that night cannot failed to have come across at least one some of these excavations as there were many around the area they claimed to have been searching.  KMcC in her book recalls how, come first light on 4 May she and GMcC scrambled over walls and looked in refuse bins amidst an eerie silence.  Atmospheric maybe, dramatic certainly but strange not a single person recounted examining where a missing child might easily have fallen.  Almost as if they knew she had been "taken" rather than simply wandered off, and therefore the only "sensible" approach was to run round in circles chasing who knew what.

Yet another point is that KMcC stated in a BBC TV interview when asked why she had not joined in the searches that she and her husband were "almost non functioning" during the intial 48 hours after the disappearance.  Therefore when the vast majority of us would be adrenaline fuelled and hyperactive, the claim is that they were in some way or form catatonic at this time.  The evidence of the released files does show, however that this statement was somewhat disingenuous as the number and variety of phone calls to a wide variety of acquaintances attests, not forgetting the breathing checks on the twins, the praying and request for a priest, there was even time to squeeze in a nap before going out to search for about an hour at daybreak.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 15.04.14 21:39

The lack of recall of the Tapas could be,

a) Deliberate, because they are trying to confuse and confusticate the story of what really did happen that night, or

b) Unintentional,  because they don't have total recall as the events of that night weren't too adrenaline-inducing, they were acting a play rather than experiencing real, terrifying events.

Imo.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by PeterMac on 15.04.14 21:59

Dee Coy wrote:The lack of recall of the Tapas could be,
a) Deliberate, because they are trying to confuse and confusticate the story of what really did happen that night, or
b) Unintentional,  because they don't have total recall as the events of that night weren't too adrenaline-inducing, they were acting a play rather than experiencing real, terrifying events.
Imo.
or
c) Unintentional, because they were never given the full details of the story which was to emerge,
They were given only the barest outline, and were under some pressure therefore to fill in the details.
Some managed to to do so, though their versions are clearly at odds with all the others. Which they now know. Hence the necessity for the Rothley meeting.
Some chose to dodge the issues, and have therefore emerged relatively unscathed in the Conspiracy stakes.\
But not in the overall picture of lying, deceit, conspiracy to Pervert, Fraud, and everything else which rests on their refusal to tell the truth from the start.

When the final reckoning comes, they will all be culpable to some degree. (Tapas, Mitchell, Trustees, Sisters, Brothers, - all of them)
Only the Judge will be able to decide to what extent they should pay for their crime of silence over the death of a little girl.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Monty Heck on 15.04.14 22:03

Dee Coy wrote:The lack of recall of the Tapas could be,

a) Deliberate, because they are trying to confuse and confusticate the story of what really did happen that night, or

b) Unintentional,  because they don't have total recall as the events of that night weren't too adrenaline-inducing, they were acting a play rather than experiencing real, terrifying events.

Imo.
It could indeed be either. 

There seems so little genuinely descriptive and of the moment expressed in the narratives that they fail to ring true, even allowing for translation issues.  The focus on the undelinated "beach area" over and over is another strange one.  Nobody mentions whether the tide was in or out, the sea rough, anyone about or boats out (and boats out of Burgau fishing with lights on are a nightly occurence in the bay of Luz), the time on the church clock - GMcC apparently unaware of the church location when any sweep along the beach area would lead to it at some point.  Everything apparently featureless and unremarkable when adrenaline ought to have heightened every detail.  There is no doubt there was searching of some kind as other witnesses have recounted this, but the T9 accounts have an air about them of people recalling an imaginary search and where they might have gone and done, and how they felt while it was happening.  The lack of emotion in the telling is also an issue as no sense of genuine fear or panic comes across, all is subdued.  It would certainly be no surprise to find that this was scripted/acted, if it emerged that was the case.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 15.04.14 22:04

Powerful statement to close for tonight, PeterMac.
Bonne nuit to you et al.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Monty Heck on 15.04.14 22:09

Châtelaine wrote:Powerful statement to close for tonight, PeterMac.
Bonne nuit to you et al.
Quite.  Bonne nuit/boa noite.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by tigger on 16.04.14 7:18

Gerry - interview in Rome:



Vatican Radio: "Susie Hodges from Vatican Radio. What lessons do you give
to other parents that have to go through this appalling experience?


Gerry McCann:
"I... We hope and pray that no-one ever does go through it
again. Errm... I
think... I hope that, if it does happen, that there will be some
template, errr... from what we
have done, as our
extended family, that will help raise the awareness for any other
missing children and it's possible tosuch cases. Having
spoken, errm... to peop... you know, errr... people around us, then stayed strong and taking control even
of small things because you feel totally out of control in those first hours and taking control
of this... of this smallest decisions helps you cope and think rationally and influence things around you and that, I think,
is the most important thing."


Unquote

Clarence Mitchell controlled what came out in the press.

The McCanns controlled what was passed to the police from members of the public.

CEOP controlled the holiday snaps taken by ALL the guests, set up a special website linked ONLY to CEOPS (at that time it was a private enterprise - not a government organisation).


-  yes, quite right Dr. McCann, control in the early stages is everything.
My guess is that everything that went out of control that evening of the 3rd  is still hard-wired in his memory.
But we won't hear  much about that part of the disaster.  

-

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Monty Heck on 18.04.14 14:38

@tigger wrote:Gerry - interview in Rome:



Vatican Radio: "Susie Hodges from Vatican Radio. What lessons do you give
to other parents that have to go through this appalling experience?


Gerry McCann:
"I... We hope and pray that no-one ever does go through it
again. Errm... I
think... I hope that, if it does happen, that there will be some
template, errr... from what we
have done, as our
extended family, that will help raise the awareness for any other
missing children and it's possible tosuch cases. Having
spoken, errm... to peop... you know, errr... people around us, then stayed strong and taking control even
of small things because you feel totally out of control in those first hours and taking control
of this... of this smallest decisions helps you cope and think rationally and influence things around you and that, I think,
is the most important thing."


Unquote

Clarence Mitchell controlled what came out in the press.

The McCanns controlled what was passed to the police from members of the public.

CEOP controlled the holiday snaps taken by ALL the guests, set up a special website linked ONLY to CEOPS (at that time it was a private enterprise - not a government organisation).


-  yes, quite right Dr. McCann, control in the early stages is everything.
My guess is that everything that went out of control that evening of the 3rd  is still hard-wired in his memory.
But we won't hear  much about that part of the disaster.  

So KMcC has spoken of being "almost non-functioning" during the first 48 hours, and GMcC speaks above about feeling "totally out of control in those first hours".  Sounds by their own admission they both at the same time lost heart, gave up, gave in, had a mutual emotional collapse during those first few hours.  The hours when hope should still have been alive and far too early for hope to have been lost.  How could anyone say they knew, knew their child had been abducted with zero evidence and just give up on them, when the child might be somewhere lost and terrified?  Or if kidnapped still alive and recoverable.  To all appearances, they seem to have behaved, for however short a time, as though the child was already dead, only to emerge a short while later and then declare to the world the child was alive and findable and proceed to this day to sue anyone daring to contradict. Curious indeed.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 18.04.14 15:41

Peter Mac

''When the final reckoning comes, they will all be culpable to some degree. (Tapas, Mitchell, Trustees, Sisters, Brothers, - all of them)''


I take it that you mean morally, as opposed to criminally culpable, Peter. I'm sure you'll agree that it would be a virtual impossibliity to incriminate Mitchell imo in particular and probably the trustees in the disappearance of Madeleine, unless of course the McCanns directly incriminated them by stating that the aforementioned were aware of the true facts regarding the disappearance of their daughter.

Then imo there might well be a case for charging them with conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, but in the unliklihood of that ever happening, Mitchell would simply state that he believed what he was told and was merely acting in the capacity of his designated job as a PR spokesman, in much the same way as a lawyer acting as a legal representative for a client. The same principle would apply to the trustees, whereby they would state that they were acting in good faith and believed that which the McCanns had related to them. Even if they later developed doubts as the authenticity of the McCann's account, they would not have been acting criminally if they believed at the time of setting up the fund that they were acting in good faith, although they might be on less safe ground if continuing to do so after developing such doubts.

With ref. their friends, I don't think they were ever made privy to what had transpired with Madeleine and were not as such acting as accomplices. Of course imo they were lying and misleading the investigating authorities, but this was to protect their careers and deflect any accusations of neglect regarding their own children, that's why their accounts were ill prepared, inconsistent and didn't tally with those of the McCanns. I'm not sure whether this would leave them open to criminal prosecution for perverting the course of justice, wasting police time etc. Peter may be able to further advise on this aspect.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 18.04.14 17:27

@diatribe wrote:Peter Mac

''When the final reckoning comes, they will all be culpable to some degree. (Tapas, Mitchell, Trustees, Sisters, Brothers, - all of them)''

I take it that you mean morally, as opposed to criminally culpable, Peter. I'm sure you'll agree that it would be a virtual impossibliity to incriminate Mitchell in particular and probably the trustees in the disappearance of Madeleine, unless of course the McCanns directly incriminated them by stating that the aforementioned were aware of the true facts regarding the disappearance of their daughter.
[...]
***
Shouldn't that be "death", rather than "" ... ?

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 18.04.14 17:48

Châtelaine wrote:
@diatribe wrote:Peter Mac

''When the final reckoning comes, they will all be culpable to some degree. (Tapas, Mitchell, Trustees, Sisters, Brothers, - all of them)''

I take it that you mean morally, as opposed to criminally culpable, Peter. I'm sure you'll agree that it would be a virtual impossibliity to incriminate Mitchell in particular and probably the trustees in the disappearance of Madeleine, unless of course the McCanns directly incriminated them by stating that the aforementioned were aware of the true facts regarding the disappearance/death of their daughter.
[...]
***
Shouldn't that be "death", rather than "" ... ?

Thanks Chatelaine have altered it

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 18.04.14 18:14

candyfloss wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
@diatribe wrote:Peter Mac

''When the final reckoning comes, they will all be culpable to some degree. (Tapas, Mitchell, Trustees, Sisters, Brothers, - all of them)''

I take it that you mean morally, as opposed to criminally culpable, Peter. I'm sure you'll agree that it would be a virtual impossibliity to incriminate Mitchell in particular and probably the trustees in the disappearance of Madeleine, unless of course the McCanns directly incriminated them by stating that the aforementioned were aware of the true facts regarding the disappearance of their daughter.
[...]
***
Shouldn't that be "death", rather than "" ... ?

Thanks Chatelaine have altered it

The problem with altering other's words is that they portray the writer as being somewhat illiterate. I would never for instance combine the words disappearance/death, instead preferring to use one or the other.

Perhaps, if you can find the time, you could further alter my original post accordingly. Thank you.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Casey5 on 18.04.14 18:53

I've been trying to find a video which was on you-tube but is not now available.
It's about an American body language expert giving a talk on how people's body language show up their lies and someone - very cleverly- inserted video clips of the McCanns which totally illustrated this. It was a brilliant video but is  unavailable on you- tube and I wondered if anyone here has saved it to another format - I realise I may be talking gibberish here - being non-technical- but hey, I don't mind looking stupid. big grin 
Can anyone help please?



Original you-tube heading:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDuWXZgj16w&feature=youtu.be






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDuWXZgj16w&feature=youtu.be

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Doug D on 18.04.14 20:12

If its the one I think you mean, iirc the youtube video was wooshed because the original producers threatened the maker with copyright theft etc as it was a training video that he had cut excerpts out of.

It was very well done, with the 'expert' talking about various 'tells', cut with GM then 'demonstrating' everything just talked about.

Shame if it's really gone for good.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 18.04.14 23:02

A poster on here Jrob/Jcloth? afaik posted the original. It was based on the TED talks,I am pretty sure Jrob? planned on re-doing the video minus the copyrighted parts but not sure if it was done.

It's a real shame as it was excellent and got a lot of hits in a short time.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Doug D on 19.04.14 3:43

Well remembered Bellisa! It was jcloth!

Re: How to Spot a Liar - TED talk

  jcloth on Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:53 pm

Copyright claim by TED  

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Casey5 on 19.04.14 15:25

Thanks everyone especially jcloth. I had a feeling it was lost for good, what a shame - I was hoping to show my sister.

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Elastic Saturday - Saturday April 28th

Post by Doug D on 09.10.14 10:16

Following PeterMac’s ‘Back to Basics’ thread looking at the supposed ‘abduction’ timeline I have gone back to the Saturday to have another look based on the immediate statements, although I have also introduced the diary and bewk into the evidence.

A timeline for the Saturday they arrived:

14.20Arrived at Ocean Club (although KM’s timing was half-hour later)
14.20 – 15.00Check-in at Main Reception
15.00To apartment in OC minibus (10 minutes? Others being dropped off?)
15.10 (?) – 16.45In apartment unpacking bags
16.45 – 17.00????  KM’s ‘pool area meeting with others + swim?
17.00 – 18.30Welcome meeting at Tapas restaurant with tennis and sailing instructors & several glasses of Sangria. Adults in covered area outside, while the children stayed next to the small pool playing on the playground. ….adults stood up & went to watch the children near where they were. The deponent and his wife took turns watching.
18.30Walked to the Millenium restaurant (20 mins?)
18.50 – 19.50Dinner with all the group & children, about an hour
19.55 – 20.10Walked back (slightly faster as twins carried all the way)
20.10 – 20.45Bathing kids & milk
20.45Kids into bed
This is compiled from the following statements from the Mc’s (taken from McCannpjfiles.co.uk):
 
GM 4th May 2007
‘The meeting point was the Ocean Club in Portugal. The deponent's group arrived there at 2.30 pm on April 28th from Faro airport on an airport mini bus. The other group arrived the same day at around 1 pm, also using a mini bus’.
 
KM 4th May 2007
‘After the trip, the meeting point was in Portugal, at the Ocean Club, where the witness's group arrived on Saturday April 28th at around 3pm from Faro airport in an airport mini bus. The other group arrived on the same day, late morning’.
 
GM 10th May 2007
‘Concerning the events in Portugal, as already stated in his previous statements, he arrived at Faro airport on 28 April 2007 at around 12h30, having travelled immediately to the OCEAN CLUB in an airport mini-bus where he arrived at around 14h20/14h30’.
 
That, on the first day, given that they arrived at lunch time, they ate only sandwiches both on the plane and on the bus during the journey from the airport to the OCEAN CLUB. After completing the check-in at the main reception, where they were dropped off by the mini-bus, which lasted until 15h00, they went to the apartment where they unpacked their bags, which lasted 16h45. Pointing out that after check-in, the trip with the bags to the apartment was made on a mini-bus that belonged to the resort.
 
Subsequently, at around 17h00, the whole group, including children, went to the TAPAS restaurant, located at the back of the apartment, next to the pool, to attend a welcoming committee arranged by MARK WARNER, where they met the tennis and sailing instructors, and other resort employees, which ended at around 18h30, several glasses of sangria having been served to them.
 
That that was the first time they all walked together inside and around the resort. They left by the front door, which he locked with the key, he walked around the existing wall and turned right, going down the resort’s side road up to the secondary reception, where they entered without difficulty, although they had an access card, which was not requested from them and that they had been given during Check-in.
 
After they passed through the secondary reception, they went to the TAPAS restaurant, next to one of the swimming pools, the adults having sat down in a covered area outside, while the children stayed next to the small pool playing on the playground that was there. That during this time all the adults stood up and went to watch the children near where they were. The deponent and his wife took turns watching.
 
When the reception committee was over, the nine adults and eight children walked to the MILLENIUM restaurant. They went back to the secondary reception, turned left and, at the top of the road, turned right, then left again, then right again, up to the main street that leads to the restaurant. Because it was a long way, at some point in time the deponent and his wife Kate had to carry the twins in their arms, but not M., who was always on foot.
 
They arrived at their destination between 18h50 and 19h00, having sat at a large table where they all had dinner, including the children who were seated among the adults, never leaving the place, except for one of the twins who went to the toilet with the deponent. About an hour later they finished dinner, and returned, equally walking, by the same route, though going wrong in one of the streets where they should have turned left, ending up only turning only at the next street. He adds that, as they were all very tired they went directly to the apartment, where they arrived at around 20h10/20h15, the route back having been slightly faster given that the twins were carried all the way.
 
In the apartment, they bathed the children and gave them a glass of milk, putting them to bed at exactly 20h45, he remembers that time because it was exactly one hour later than their usual bedtime. After putting the children to bed, the deponent and his wife took a bath, then settled down in the living room to watch television. He points out that at the moment they arrived at the residence, David Payne invited them to go for a glass of wine after putting down the children, but they turned down the offer as they were extremely tired. He thinks that nobody left their apartments on the first night. Asked, he said that in England, when not on holiday, the deponent and his wife would go to bed at 22h30/23h00, the twins at 19h00 and M. at 19H30.
 
KM 6th September 2007
No mention
 
KM 7th September 2007
No mention
 
GM 7th September 2007
No mention
 
 
 
So then, jump forward to 2011 and the publication of ‘madeleine’ (KH1)
 
(P. 45 – 47) We can add to the timeline that the travel cots had to be moved from back bedroom to front and the bedrooms moved around. (We have seen photo evidence of a least the beds having been moved, although one of the maids puts a cot in the parents room when she came to clean)
 
‘After reorganizing the sleeping arrangements and unpacking some essentials, we went down to the pool area at the back of the apartment to join the rest of the holiday group – Jane, Russell, Rachael and Matt and their kids had arrived a few hours ahead of us…………………….
…………The weather was pleasant enough, although there was a cool breeze. It was still April, after all. As I am one of those people who really feel the cold (‘Get a bit of meat on yerself!’ my hardy Scottish in-laws are always telling me), when Madeleine immediately wanted me to go swimming with her, I was not exactly keen. But she was so excited about the pool. I took one look at her eager little face and went off to put on my costume. The water was absolutely freezing, but Madeleine was straight in there, even if her voice disappeared for a second or two with the shock of it. ‘Come on, Mummy!’ she called when she’d got her breath back. I tentatively inched my way in. ‘The things you do for your kids!’
I remember commenting to a dad lying on a sunlounger with his two sons nearby, watching us. I told Madeleine to count to three and steeled myself. It was worth it – it will always be worth it – just to see her delight. Even if it did take us both the best part of three hours to warm up afterwards.
We were still shivering when we went off to a ‘welcome’ meeting with the Mark Warner team, ………….’
 
So was this the adult pool or the childrens splash pool? Could M swim?
3 hours for the swim and then to get warm again, pretty momentous in the scheme of things, yet the first mention of this was in KM’s diary entries which we are told were initially backdated:
 
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id166.html  (Near the end):
 
The Diary Duarte Levy Wordpress (Portuguese)
 
By Duarte Levy
04 May 2009
 
Sat. 28.04.2007
Arrival O.C. 15:00
Apartment 5A
Pool
Swim with M
Meeting with M.W. officials and have a drink
Rest. Millennium with kids (only night) (Note: 'Rest.' =  Restaurant)
Return walk - difficult for kids
Bed Bath →
Bed early
 
 
If we go by GM’s timings, between 15.10 and 17.00 there is probably time to do the unpacking, move the beds & cots and take M. for a quick swim, (KM’s timings push things in the afternoon back half an hour) but why is it that there was no mention of the swim until so long afterwards?
They went down to the pool area to ‘join the rest of the holiday group’ and it was only KM & M who went in to the freezing water, so cold that it took ‘the best part of 3 hours’ to warm up from.
 If this actually happened and nobody else (including the other kids) was prepared to go in, there would certainly have been some banter (creating memory) amongst the group (and some photos?), yet nobody (not even the Mc’s) even mentions it initially.
 
The only other relevant mentions of Saturday in the May 2007 statements are:
 
RO’B 11th May 2007
 
‘…..the four couples only came together at the Ocean Club resort to have dinner around 18H00 in the Milenium Restaurant’
 
JT 10th May 2007
 
‘As for the holidays, on the first day (Saturday, 28 April 2007) they had dinner in the complex, making their way to Restaurant Millenium. No-one booked dinner at that restaurant, all, including the children, having gone for dinner around 18h00.
The Millenium used to serve dinner on other days (except Saturday) only from 19:30’
 
So these two both give 18.00 as dinner time on the Saturday.
 
If the Mc’s timetable is squeezed by one hour from this end, the time available for this ‘freezing cold swim’ seemingly disappears.
 
As with most things McCann, you have to take their timeline with a big pinch of salt.
 
There is however the ‘dad lying on a sunlounger with his two sons nearby, watching us’, so there is a potential independent witness that the PJ could have traced.
 
Lizzie (HideHo) did a similar timeline which I referred to for comparison after compiling the above and which can be found at:
 
http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/T9-Early-Statement-Timetables/Comparison-ALL-EARLY-Statements-Individual-Days-1-1060722.html
 
but she does not mention the swim and the timing discrepancies are not highlighted in this way.
 
Potential fictions and discrepancies showing up in the statements almost before the holiday begins. Easy to sort out and clarify, yet why?

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