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Contemporaneous: the first recall

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 13.04.14 0:21

Re photographing things. My mobile gallery is filled with before and after photos of European hire cars. Paranoid - no just learned the hard way. Similarly I also have contemporaneous (is that how you spell it?) pictures of the misdemenors of my local council binmen damaging my car. Didn't win on that one because apparently all of my four neighbour's witness statements were deemed inadmissable because they knew me. Yes right they witnessed it but that doesn't matter.

Although off topic slightly, in this day and age, most of us have smart phones and we are used to snapping everything of relevance or which might come in handy later. A handful of photos produced weeks after the holiday and total lack the of snaps of the crime scene are such red flags. We've spent the last 20 years documenting every under the sun. The lack of photographic evidence says a lot.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 13.04.14 0:52

chilli wrote: The lack of photographic evidence says a lot.

Personally, I've never owned a mobile phone, they're tracking devices. I'd hazard a guess that at least 70% of the world's prison inmates are incarcerated due to their credit card and phone records.A classic example being the so called Rettendon drug murders where one of the assassins called up for the getaway car on his mobile phone, thereby placing himself at the scene of the crime. Yer afta laff dontcha.

On a more serious note, far from there being a lack of photographic evidence in the case of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, I would think this is the most analysed, documented, videoed and photographed case in the history of mankind. I very much doubt whether the thus far lack of a prosecution in this case has anything whatsoever to do with a lack of photographic evidence.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by whmon on 13.04.14 1:40

@diatribe wrote:
@whmon wrote:
Your dogs Diatribe - biting someone?


THE HOOLIGANS.



Wow - what cuties you have!

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by plebgate on 13.04.14 9:45

chilli wrote:Re photographing things. My mobile gallery is filled with before and after photos of European hire cars. Paranoid - no just learned the hard way. Similarly I also have contemporaneous (is that how you spell it?) pictures of the misdemenors of my local council binmen damaging my car. Didn't win on that one because apparently all of my four neighbour's witness statements were deemed inadmissable because they knew me. Yes right they witnessed it but that doesn't matter.

Although off topic slightly, in this day and age, most of us have smart phones and we are used to snapping everything of relevance or which might come in handy later. A handful of photos produced weeks after the holiday and total lack the of snaps of the crime scene are such red flags. We've spent the last 20 years documenting every under the sun. The lack of photographic evidence says a lot.
I agree about photographing things.  Very handy for maybe car accidents if the guilty party tries to deny it was their fault.

If I came home and found the place burgled, the first thing I would do is photograph the scene even if I knew that the cops would be calling and photos taken at that time.   Makes sense to keep photos for your own files.

I would not run out and call people in so that they could possibly destroy the scene of the crime. 

The fact that these professionals did not appear (afawk) to have taken any documentary evidence, bearing in mind that some were used to working with state of the art technology in hospital and very used to taking documentary evidence of patients on a daily basis, surprises me that not a one decided to take photos of that night (apparently).

ETA: I too have taken photos before and after using a hire car.   Don't want to get landed with a bill for damage I may not have done.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 13.04.14 19:07

@diatribe wrote:
chilli wrote: The lack of photographic evidence says a lot.

Personally, I've never owned a mobile phone, they're tracking devices. I'd hazard a guess that at least 70% of the world's prison inmates are incarcerated due to their credit card and phone records.A classic example being the so called Rettendon drug murders where one of the assassins called up for the getaway car on his mobile phone, thereby placing himself at the scene of the crime. Yer afta laff dontcha.

On a more serious note, far from there being a lack of photographic evidence in the case of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, I would think this is the most  analysed, documented, videoed and photographed case in the history of mankind. I very much doubt whether the thus far lack of a prosecution in this case has anything whatsoever to do with a lack of photographic evidence.
Sorry I'm not with you.  What photographic evidence are you talking about?

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 13.04.14 22:09

Gollum wrote:
Sorry I'm not with you.  What photographic evidence are you talking about?

Are there no scenes of crime photographs taken by the PJ after they had isolated the area. I haven't thoroughly perused all the files, but I imagine there would be multitudes of photographs taken by the scenes of crime officers both of the apt. and surrounding area.

I tend to remember a video of a scenes of crime lady dusting down the window which was initially alleged to have been the forced means of entry, so I'm presuming that as well as extensive photographing having been conducted, there would also have been an equatable amount of corresponding video footage taken by the PJ. The tapes of the dogs being a classic example.

I don't agree with the theory that the first thought of every crime victim would be to take images of the scene, there's a vast difference between photographing a Council wheelie bin that's been damaged to coming home to find your child missing, or your wife has been tied up and raped. The natural instinct of most law abiding citizens would be to telephone the police, whilst at the same time being in a state of shock, certainly not being of the mindset to start playing Miss Marples and photographing the crime scene.

As Aquila so poignantly observed, a genuine victim of a serious crime would not have the presence of mind to be writing out timelines, not one but two, particularly a distraught mother whose 3 yr. old child had disappeared. Why would there be a need for such action, surely it would be the job of the police to photograph the crime scene and record the victim's account of events, after all, they're the professionals and know what evidence is relevant and what isn't. If anything, taking one's own pics. of a crime scene and making up timelines would tend to indicate that one had something to hide. Its the sort of action I might take if I were arranging a spurious burglary in order to defraud an ins. company.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 13.04.14 22:16

There's a wealth of GNR and PJ photographs late May 3 and early May 4, 2007. What's the problem?

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 13.04.14 22:23

Diatribe
Thank you, I think I misunderstood your meaning.  Your actual words were "On a more serious note, far from there being a lack of photographic evidence in the case of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, I would think this is the most  analysed, documented, videoed and photographed case in the history of mankind. I very much doubt whether the thus far lack of a prosecution in this case has anything whatsoever to do with a lack of photographic evidence".

The photographs taken by the police on the night of Maddie's disappearance were of the crime scene, not necessarily evidence per se.  I can't agree with your comment, I think you have exaggerated the point your were trying to make.  There is a big difference between the crime scene photographs contained in the case files and your claim.  Are you serious about never having owned a mobile phone because you see them as a tracking device?  I couldn't care less who tracks me, then I've got no reason to worry.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 13.04.14 23:00

Gollum wrote:


The photographs taken by the police on the night of Maddie's disappearance were of the crime scene, not necessarily evidence per se.  I can't agree with your comment, I think you have exaggerated the point your were trying to make.  There is a big difference between the crime scene photographs contained in the case files and your claim. .

I wasn't trying to make a point, I was actually making a point of the fact that there would have been ample police photographs of the alleged crime scene to render any images the McCanns could potentially have taken to be superfluous to requirements.

Gollum wrote:

Are you serious about never having owned a mobile phone because you see them as a tracking device?  I couldn't care less who tracks me, then I've got no reason to worry.

I am indeed serious about never having owned a mobile phone. A close friend of mine actually had a concession with Vodaphone in 1984 when mobile phones were the size of mini briefcases and the reception was spartan at best. He asked me if I was interested in investing, but at the time I had other businesses and declined. The story of my life, ie. being at the airport when my ship comes in. We would both have been multi-millionaires by the end of the 1980's. In the event, he became heavily addicted to columbian marching powder and lost his concession with Vodaphone., eventually ending up spending 5 yrs. in a pakistani gaol.

Mobile phones are indeed tracking devices, even when they're switched off, they tell a story. Personally, I detest them and I don't think I've ever lost a deal through not possessing one. My home is a mobile free zone and I insist anyone entering turn their phone off. There is nothing more irritating than attempting to hold a conversation with a person whose phone is persistently emanating offensive pop music , it wouldn't be so bad if they played a bit of Mantovani. Its also the height of ignorance to expect others to suffer having to listen to a person's husband or wife checking up on them, or asking them not to forget to bring a couple of toilet rolls home whilst attempting to hold a conversation. Not to mention that your conversation could be being taped.

When I was young, anyone seen strolling down the road with their hand glued to their ear apparently talking to themself would have been swagged off by men in white coats, now its the opposite with the odd non compliants being at risk of being whisked off to a lunatic asylum. One of these days, I am going to take my 1940's bakelite ivory coloured telephone on the subway and begin holding a fictitious conversation, ''Ello babes, I'll be home soon, watya doing, miss ya, I 'aven't seen ya for 5 mins.' :)

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 13.04.14 23:52

@ Diatribe
Again I reiterate your actual words, which were " I would think this is the most  analysed, documented, videoed and photographed case in the history of mankind. I very much doubt whether the thus far lack of a prosecution in this case has anything whatsoever to do with a lack of photographic evidence."

I read your post as it was written but your later condensed version is more understandable, it would be helpful if you could cut the unnecessary wasted words and stick to what you really mean, no offence meant.

My mention of the mobile phone issue was just a passing comment, I wasn't expecting a reply, less still a life history.  Off topic to say the least, clearly you have a computer which in my opinion is equally intrusive and anti-social.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by tigger on 14.04.14 9:08

As to the topic title:

When exactly did the 'whooshing wind' come in? That for sure wasn't in the first few days.
So it wasn't the first recall.
I'd have to look at the first statement again, the shutters were up and the window was open. That was more or less it.

As to taking photographs, yes possibly in minor crimes. But not where personal danger is at stake imo.

Recall is amazing in moments of great stress. I can still describe the colours and interior of my car, the colour and shape of the car which started my skid, the tree my car drove into. Not only did some three seconds of time expand into three minutes, the car seemed larger inside, the colours sharper. All over in seconds, 30 yrs later, total recall. But not of the face of the idiot woman who'd nearly killed me (she was driving in the opposite direction and saw a parking space on my side - and did not notice me) - total recall of not very useful details.

So what I'm saying is that it always was a story, a real experience of that nature doesn't change imo.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by aquila on 14.04.14 15:22

A child has gone missing from a holiday apartment. Panic stations....and yet it was felt crucial to write a timeline(s).

Whose idea was this in a time of panic when the child left alone in a strange apartment with open doors might easily have been found wandering about in her pyjamas?

IMO that's the person to look at.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by PeterMac on 14.04.14 15:46

@tigger wrote:As to the topic title:

When exactly did the 'whooshing wind' come in?  That for sure  wasn't in the first few days.
So it wasn't the first recall.
I'd have to look at the first statement again, the shutters were up and the window was open. That was more or less it.

From Kate’s police statement, dated 4th May we learn,

“At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.

In 2008 Kate McCann gave an interview in which she described graphically what happened when she entered the apartment for her check, and discovered Madeleine to be missing.

“I did my check about ten o’clock and went in through the sliding patio doors, and I just stood actually, and I thought, uh, all quiet. And to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then, but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door where the three children were sleeping, was open much further than we’d left it.
I went to close it to about here, and then as I got to here, it suddenly . . . slammed, and as I opened it, it was then, that I just thought I’ll just look at the children.
I see Sean and Amelie in the cot . . . .
I was looking at Madeleine’s bed which is here, and it was dark and I was looking and I was thinking is that, is that Madeleine or is that the bedding and I couldn't quite make her out, and it sounds really stupid now, but at the time I was just thinking I didn’t want to put the light on because I didn't want to wake them, and literally as I went back in, the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn, [demonstrates with both forearms together] that were closed, “wheesh’ like a gust of wind kind of blew them open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhACS6ck-Dw&feature=player_embedded
See 1:15 onwards

Fascinating, since it is the addition of the extra material in the first statement which stuffs her.
Just as the addition of ". . .using his key . . " stuffs Gerry
In neither case can it be a misunderstanding, mistranslation, misinterpretation.
Too much detail.
And she is proven to be a LIAR

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by PeterMac on 14.04.14 15:49

Châtelaine wrote:There's a wealth of GNR and PJ photographs late May 3 and early May 4, 2007. What's the problem?
Indeed.
And the very last one, at the bottom of the page, showing a camera on the dining table, is one of the most revealing ones there is.
So much hinges on that photo.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by joyce1938 on 14.04.14 16:12

petermac,was there 2 cameras spoken of ,and had one been taken already ?joyce1938

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Doug D on 14.04.14 16:22

This first bit is logic, not evidence, unfortunately.
 
Having found one of your children ‘missing’, any normal person in a blind panic would have screamed at her mates from the balcony, which was after all (KH1 p.54) ‘only thirty to forty-five seconds away……largely visible………...sitting outside’.
 
I have only just appreciated though, that on p.72
 
before hurtling out through the patio doors and down towards Gerry and our friends. As soon as our table was in sight I started screaming…………..”
 
so maybe not largely visible then.
 
This was followed by the (KM) ‘sprinting back’ (p.72), (DP), ‘went’, (JT) ‘heard Kate and Fiona shouting’ , (GM) not mentioned, ‘Immediately, the group headed for the club and searched across all the facilities’ , (MO) ‘went’ , (KM) no mention ‘The group immediately headed to the club’  (virtually same as GM), (FP) no mention, ‘Immediately, they organised search groups, either in the apartment thinking that she could be hidden, or outside’, (RO) ‘went’, (DW) no comment, ‘They immediately organised search parties’, (RO’B) ‘went out, running’.
 
Apart from the urgency introduced in KH1, the other statements are all the initial 4th May ones, with only RO’B saying ‘running’, although they were not all allegedly present in the Tapas when the news was broken.
 
Having been given the panicked news that M. had disappeared, when being asked as to your immediate reaction for a police statement, anything less than ‘flew’ or the (considered later) bewks ‘sprinted back’, just do not wash with me and ‘went’, ‘headed to the club’ etc just seem nonsensical.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by ultimaThule on 14.04.14 16:44

It beggars belief that any parent who believed their child had been abducted through an open window in their bedroom would leave their two younger children sleeping in the same room unattended while they left the premises to raise the alarm, but everything about the McCanns' behaviour beggars belief, Doug D.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by PeterMac on 14.04.14 16:46

@joyce1938 wrote:petermac,was there 2 cameras spoken of ,and had one been taken already ?joyce1938
Spot on.
The McCanns had access to two cameras. An Olympus C-50, and a Canon PowerShot A620.
In the book Kate only refers to a camera in the singular. My camera, our camera. It is however clear that there were two.
This becomes clear firstly by examining Kate’s book, where she clearly states that ‘our camera’ was taken away by Russell O’Brien so that photos could be printed in the form of a poster. Later that night, when everyone had been asked to leave the apartment the official photos were taken by the PJ.
On the dining table the Canon PowerShot can clearly be seen. The photo session and forensic examination took place between 0030 and 0400, 4/5/2007
The statement of DC Martin speaks of receiving the Olympus camera for examination, on 8th May.
The EXIF metadata for the “Last Photo” clearly shows that it was taken on the Canon

Sadly Dr Amaral did not spot this until they were all together at a morning meeting on 8th with the Leicester Police and looked through everything that had happened.
He made a mental note to find all the Tapas cameras and all the photos, but it is not believed that this one was ever handed over.
Certainly on 10th it was still in Kate's possession. We know know because she blabs about it ! (Too much information - yet again. Well done KH !)
And that has a crucial importance later.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Nightfly on 14.04.14 17:16

Glad we got back to discussing what was said (although any possible photos might be worth discussing) my original point was about what was said immediately to those around and to the police. As someone mentioned earlier, when you experience a big event such as a car accident it is amazing what is retained. It is as if time is slowed down and stretched and you remember vividly exactly what you saw or felt. Adrenaline does strange things - makes you instantly alert (fight or flight) - instantly concentrating - instantly aware. All the relevant decisions that you could have made are tossed around in your head and for quite sometime after your mind is fully concentrated on resolving the issue - to the point where you are physically tired through all the mental gymnastics. That is why what is said contemporaneously is the most important. A few things are remembered later but the key actions are instantly recalled and permanently embedded in memory. This is why I was advised to write down everything I could recall after my car accident and post it to my solicitor the next day to record the event in time. Any small additions would be noted but big changes would alert caution. It helped me enormously with my particular car accident especially when the other party tried to invent a false witness and rewrote the actual events. Fortunately for me the telephone records to the emergency services and my initial statement to the police,  helped my barrister destroy those responsible. I just feel that the first statements hold the key to this mystery and altered timings/records/statements make me suspicious - in these moments people involved remember nearly everything especially where they were, what time it was, what they did straight after etc. People can recall where they were and what they were doing when famous people died - surely the parents and the other T9 would recall everything as if it had just happened.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Nightfly on 14.04.14 17:25

(Copied from internet http://www.foxwilliams.com/news/547)

The importance of being honest: how credible is your witness?
Choose your witnesses carefully:

  • Avoid those who are unreliable or dishonest - judges do not warm to such characters.
  • Try to avoid those who have a tendency to crack under pressure.  In the witness box they can come across as contradictory and unsure, which will create doubt in the judge’s mind.
  • Avoid those who do not want to assist.  Forcing someone to give evidence on your behalf is not a good idea.  They are unlikely to give helpful evidence if you have coerced them, and with a good barrister on the other side questioning them, they could do more damage to your case than good.

If you are acting as a witness:

  • Check and then check again your witness statement.
  • If you are giving evidence, make sure you are happy that the contents of your witness statement are all true and correct.
  • If lawyers have drafted it for you, make sure you understand and are comfortable with the wording that has been used.
  • In most cases, you will sign your witness statement several months or more in advance of the trial.  So, it is a good idea to regularly check your statement to ensure you are still happy with the contents and that it remains true.

Recognise that the imagination grows wilder as the memory fades – a trait which is not limited to politicians and government ministers!

  • To forget is human, to have contemporaneous notes is divine.  It is always advisable, whether or not litigation is contemplated, to keep notes of meetings or telephone calls that address anything significant: contract negotiations or variations, commission levels, terminating an agreement. The judge will always attach more weight to contemporaneous notes than oral evidence as a more accurate account of what was said at the time.
  • When giving a statement or oral evidence in court, state the facts as they are or as you recall: do not just say what you think your party wants you to say.  If you cannot remember something, say so.

Do not lie:

  • Whether intentionally or not, avoid trying to mould your evidence to your party’s case.  You may damage your credibility as a witness and, worse, damage your party’s case.
  • The RBS case shows that lying could ultimately cause you to lose your case.  The Lawlor case demonstrates that giving improbable/untruthful evidence could cause the judge to raise wider questions about your conduct, which may not be directly relevant to the case.
  • Most importantly, lying whilst giving evidence in court is a criminal offence.  Andy Coulson’s recent tribulation is a good example of the court not being afraid to issue a warrant for your arrest if it considers that you have lied under oath

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by tigger on 15.04.14 7:36

@ nightfly

You mention the earliest statements and doug D listed the various accounts of the manner in which the group moved from A to B.

That is very interesting as imo the urgency is enhanced in the book. Most of the rest of the group did not have a detailed script to follow and so they. Walked, went and headed instead of entering into the spirit of the thing.
E.g. RM still stuck to 'all shutters down' including those of the patio doors in her first statement.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 15.04.14 14:57

Gollum wrote:

I read your post as it was written but your later condensed version is more understandable, it would be helpful if you could cut the unnecessary wasted words and stick to what you really mean, no offence meant..

With the utmost respect to your goodself, no-one else contributing to this thread appears to have required clarification with respect to the interpretation of my original observation. I also take note of your remark vis a vis my curtailing the use of 'unnecessary wasted words.' Any future exchanges I may incur with you, I will ensure that I am more concise and restrict my ripostes to one liners, no offence meant.

Gollum wrote:

My mention of the mobile phone issue was just a passing comment, I wasn't expecting a reply, less still a life history. Off topic to say the least, clearly you have a computer which in my opinion is equally intrusive and anti-social.

Please accept my most profuse apologies for having the temerity to explain in some detail my reasons for not patronising the usage of mobile phones, but in all fairness, you did open the door with your 'passing comment.' and it was not necessarily that far off topic in the vein that another contributor had remarked along the lines of everybody having access to instant imaging ability over the past 20 yrs, although despite my limited knowledge of modern technology , I don't believe mobile phones have been routinely equipped with photograhic facilities for much beyond the past 6/7 yrs. I also know of others with similar sentiments to my own who are of the opinion that mankind has managed to survive for millions of yrs. without the necessity of possessing a mobile phone to maintain the sustension of life.

NB I apologise in advance for further transgressing off topic, but over the past few days, I have experienced difficulties with accessing this splendid site, ie. loss of several of the facilities, slow downloading of pages etc.and am wondering if others are experiencing similar problems. I have discounted the problem emanating from my computer as I am not experiencing any difficulties with other sites I occasionally visit. I was in fact wondering if due to the sensitivety factor involved with this forum, there may be a possibility of detractors somehow having hacked into it which may be causing the problem, although I'm sure there is probably a simpler technical explanation which may have something to do with my having inadvertently altered the settings. Any advice other more technically minded members may be able to afford me in this matter would be gratefully appreciated.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 15.04.14 19:25

@diatribe wrote:

NB  I apologise in advance for further transgressing off topic, but over the past few days, I have experienced difficulties with accessing this splendid site, ie. loss of several of the facilities, slow downloading of pages  etc.and am wondering if others are experiencing similar problems. I have discounted the problem emanating from my computer as I am not experiencing any difficulties with other sites I occasionally visit. I was in fact wondering if due to the sensitivety factor involved with this forum, there may be a possibility of detractors somehow having hacked into it which may be causing  the problem, although I'm sure there is probably a simpler technical explanation which may have something to do with my having inadvertently altered the settings. Any advice other more technically minded members may be able to afford me in this matter would be gratefully appreciated.

Well I noticed that you were banged up in Westminster the day before yesterday with me and a few others diatribe so that could be the reason why this site is loading slowly on your pc. If you have no idea what I am talking about then this may enlighten you:-

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6026-all-at-sea-i-need-a-map

Read it and weep - the wonders of modern technology eh?  Shocked

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 15.04.14 20:31

BlackCatBoogie wrote:



Well I noticed that you were banged up in Westminster the day before yesterday with me and a few others diatribe so that could be the reason why this site is loading slowly on your pc. If you have no idea what I am talking about then this may enlighten you:-

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6026-all-at-sea-i-need-a-map

Read it and weep - the wonders of modern technology eh?  Shocked


-----and there was I thinking I was at the Chelmsford County Cricket Ground watching Essex being bowled out for 94, BlackCat and now it appears I'm rapidly sinking in some kind of quagmire on Dartmoor. Well, I suppose that'll please some. :)

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 15.04.14 20:37

BCB is right, diatribe. A few days ago, I was having great problems with the forum. Pages were taking ages to load, the 'post reply' box formatting had all changed and, bizarrely,  I couldn't use smilies. The rest of the sites I used were fine. After months of cosy munching of biscuits hunched over my computer in my neighbour's garden shed (roughly 200m from my actual location) I then noticed on the map I had been dragged the 150 miles south to the vicinity of the Met building in Westminster. And here I remain.

I feel a bit bad because I pointed this out to j.rob the other day, mentioning s/he was also in Westminster and s/he hasn't been seen since. Come back, j.rob, we miss you! If Andy and co are looking at my tablet all they'll find are my feeble ramblings on here and my musings on my other, rugby league, forum. As this is usually my fretting over who should be our half-back pairing this week they'll be bored rigid. (Miller and Rankin, Andy, or Rankin to 7 and Horne to 6?) Better let me go soon, it's the local derby tomorrow night.

Sorry.  offtopic 

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