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Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by loopzdaloop on 16.04.14 9:41

@russiandoll wrote:
@loopzdaloop wrote:I was unclear as to the media fawning over this privileged former(perhaps relapsed we shall see) heroin act daughter of a former heroin addict who also made a stupid decision and ended up dead. She posted a pic of herself and her mother on twitter as the last thing she did which to me suggests intentionality to follow suit. She made a decision, she knew the risks and she died. She spent a lot of time in expensive rehab so knew the risks. There is nothing 'tragic' about an informed individual making choices in life.

  Tigger : I was certainly posting in the heat of the moment and my remark was the type of personal remark I make very rarely. I have cooled down somewhat but have to be very honest with myself; while I appreciate the subtle difference between the comment I made and one saying " that was a nasty piece of writing ",  the essence is the same, that there is imo something deeply unpleasant in it. You used the words " if it was not your opinion" about what I wrote. If it was not my opinion, I would not have written such a thing.

The forum admin will no doub2014-04-16t remind me as you have done that I have broken a rule by being so personal, but having read the above again in the cold light of day I have to say that my very strong words, which surprised even me, came from the heart and I can't honestly take them back.

 Loopzdaloop : Please let me explain the reasons for my very strong words to you last night. I can appreciate that you are probably very offended by my having called you a nasty piece fo work. I could have called you simply a piece of work, avoided the word that will doubtless earn me a slapped wrist or more, but the meaning is the same. Here is why I made my personal remark to you regarding your post above.

 1.  This topic has morphed from a series of straightforward comments on the death of this young woman into a critique of media treatment of the story. The media will, as we have seen, write anything to sell their product. Truth, respect and a feeling for a person's dignity and privacy have little or nothing to do with their MO.  You are entitled to your opinion that they have fawned over PG, I do not agree with you on this point, but it is not important.

2.  One very important thing is an assumption I inferred from your post, that PG died of a drugs overdose, either accidental or delibera. You have said above that SHE ALSO MADE A STUPID DECISION  AND ENDED UP DEAD. These words are a statement  that PG died in the same way as her mother.
 There has veen no cause of death established, and while I appreciate that because the PM was inconclusive and that the coroner will be waiting for the results of toxicology tests, this leads people to suspect drugs palyed a part in the death of PG, that is speculation and should not be stated as fact.

3  Supposing that we learn in time that drugs did play a part in her death, with or without alcohol as a contributing factor, I take exception to what I consider to be your very harsh, mean-spirited words above, which show a complete lack of empathy for a young person who has died and also your lack of knowledge about drug addiction.
An addict is ill and as such is deserving of compassion. Stupid decisions do not come into it, the only stupid decision having been the initial one to try the substance which would lead to serious problems.
 If this was an accidental overdose, then it is a tragedy that it was fatal. If this was a suicide, how can that be a stupid decision? The girl must have been deeply unhappy and irrational, not stupid.

Regarding PG's privileged life, she also had a rather lousy time losing her mother at age 11 in such awful circumstances. She did not asked to be born to a celebrity couple whose lives would make her own life rather volatile.

Her death is tragic, no more, no less, than any other death of a person in their mid-20s. I have never had any interest in her or her famous parents, but the media report on celebrities precisely because a lot of people are interested. I am more disappointed by media disregard for her family's privacy than by anything else.

 Regardless of any reprimand or banning as the result of my words to you, I should be honest and also have the courage of my convictions and say that although Tigger was correct about my posting in the heat of anger, the fact is that my opinion has not changed and that the above post is deeply unpleasant
You asked me if you actually used the words "scum of the earth". You know that you did not and I think that you are intelligent enough to understand my meaning that your attitude of high-handed cold, harsh judgment left me with a very bad taste in my mouth.

 According to you PG decided to kill herself as her mother had done, so she did not take any risks, her rehab had nothing to do with her apparent [ according to you] suicide.
Made a decision, died.
 No big deal then ?

 I will let my words stand and should admin ask for an apology, one will not be forthcoming. I am aware of having broken a rule, but it is clear to me that belonging to the forum can't be as important to me as having my say when I read something which I consider to be unfair and outrageous.
I was appalled by what you wrote and if that gets me a ban, so be it.

It is public knowledge that Peaches had a heroin addiction. I believe there is a picture of her naked wasted from heroin online.
With respect to Bob Geldof, it was reported at the time he did have a go a her and force her into rehab reminding her of what happened to her mum.

It appears she was using again based upon her significant reduction in weight, her death at her young age, and the coroner not reporting 'natural causes'. The last thing she posted on twitter was also of herself as a child with her mum so we knew where her mind was at.

Yes being priviledged is a factor here as he has everything she ever needed in life which rules out a route into drug use i may have sympathy for. It is clear she saw herself as one of the 'coolcrew' that used to frequent Camden and now hang out in Shoreditch where it is seen as 'hip' to do Heroin and probablmaspired to be part of the '27-club' who were themselves idealised upon their deaths by the media.

Drug use is not an illness. Neither is eating junk food, they are choices that carry risks.
The end result is you may become addicted or you may become obese.

An illness is cancer where you get it through reasons that are nothing to do with any choices you make in your life and furthermore you can't stop it.

With the use of drugs or eating junk food it is something that you can stop.
People do stop and there is evidence of this all over the world.
It is however tough to stop and there are often inadequate services to help people stop, yet this was not an issue for peaches. Saying this is an 'illness' removes all personal responsibility from the individual.
It is your choice if you go to a pub, go to macdonald or go to a drug dealer.
You are aware of the risks of each as Peaches was. If you die from taking a substance that is illegal and have received an education at the best schools so know about the risk of drugs and also have personal experience of the risk of using drugs (through her mother or her friend Amy Winehouse) then it is not tragic. It is a choice you have made! Its an inevitability of drug use is that people die. She is clearly a selfish woman as she has not thought about her partner, her children or her father.
I do feel sorry for them as well as her father for having to be mixed up with someone who felt she knew better than anyone else and it would be fine. When the toxicology report comes back highlighting whatever cocktail of drugs she decide to take, we all know full well that she did this whilst actively remembering her mother and what happened to her.
This is therefore not a 'tragedy' it is a reflection of poor decision making and as such the fawning in the media is unacceptable and gives a bad impression to impressionable kids who also want to be 'hip' 'talented' or 'beautiful'.
I wonder if there is as much adoration for those people on the edges of your town centre right now who somewhere also have children and families. So it was not me that portrayed them as 'scum of the earth', it was you that perceived it through the reality
Of the situation that I wrote. It is perhaps these prejudices that prevent you from seeing the reality of the situation.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by Woofer on 16.04.14 10:18

Goodness - how very harshly judgemental.  LdLoop - are you of the mindset that also condemns alcoholism as not being an illness.   Please remember that we all inherit predispositions to certain illnesses, psychologies and none of us have control over our nurture.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by aiyoyo on 16.04.14 11:08

Drug abuse and alcoholism is not an illness, it is an addiction.
It is not a medical condition, as such not recognized as illness by medical field or authority,  but can have related illness because of it.

Illness is involuntary condition, whereas addiction is voluntary decision.

The British Medical Association, after years of indecision, now classes addiction as a mental illness. So does the American Medical Association.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-442580/Is-addiction-illness-weakness.html#ixzz2z2Z79J3z
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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by Google.Gaspar.Statements on 16.04.14 11:19

Drugs and alcohol are used to try to cope with certain illnesses though.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by loopzdaloop on 16.04.14 11:53

@Woofer wrote:Goodness - how very harshly judgemental.  LdLoop - are you of the mindset that also condemns alcoholism as not being an illness.   Please remember that we all inherit predispositions to certain illnesses, psychologies and none of us have control over our nurture.

Drinking too much alcohol on a regular basis is not an illness and nobody is 'predisposed' to do it.
Alcohol and drugs are a creation of humans and as such un biologically related. Its similar to saying that 'driving too fast' is an illness. Driving too fast can result in harm to self or others, as well as social and financial problems but you are not
Going to argue that people have a predisposition to it.

The use of alcohol and drugs is a socially learnt behaviour.
Attitudes towards it are a result of the attitudes of your most intimate social circle.
People have an awareness of risks of doing things through education, either public or rehab but at the end of the day it falls on the individual to weigh up whats really important to them.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by aquila on 16.04.14 12:54

I've been wracking my brain to think of anyone I know who doesn't have a family with either an alcoholic or a drug addict within and I can't find one.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by DNAman on 16.04.14 13:12

@loopzdaloop wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Goodness - how very harshly judgemental.  LdLoop - are you of the mindset that also condemns alcoholism as not being an illness.   Please remember that we all inherit predispositions to certain illnesses, psychologies and none of us have control over our nurture.

Drinking too much alcohol on a regular basis is not an illness and nobody is 'predisposed' to do it.
Alcohol and drugs are a creation of humans and as such un biologically related. Its similar to saying that 'driving too fast' is an illness. Driving too fast can result in harm to self or others, as well as social and financial problems but you are not
Going to argue that people have a predisposition to it.

The use of alcohol and drugs is a socially learnt behaviour.
Attitudes towards it are a result of the attitudes of your most intimate social circle.
People have an awareness of risks of doing things through education, either public or rehab but at the end of the day it falls on the individual to weigh up whats really important to them.
OMG I cannot believe what I have just read.  Certainly the initial decision to have a drink or take a drug is a choice. However some people do have a genetic & physiological predisposition to become addicted to either the effects or in certain cases to the actual drug. We are only just beginning to identify the genetics behind this predisposition. We are a long way from fully understanding what happens in an addicts brain, but there is little doubt that some people are far more easily addicted than others. Yes social influences also play a part but they are far from being the whole story.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by aquila on 16.04.14 13:19

I was told this by a recovering alcoholic (he hadn't had a drink in donkey's years) who was an anaesthetist that it's gene No. 14 and he went on to explain how the body generates its own alcohol in the absence of actual alcohol. He spoke about genetic differences in liver function. I wish I could remember everything he said. He certainly wasn't excusing his own addiction or trying to absolve himself of his behaviour when he was drinking.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by Snifferdog on 16.04.14 15:12

Well, what is an illness? Would it include a predisposition to theft, paedophilia, a murderous violent nature?
Could we view as a sickness the extremely harmful influence that many so called "celebs" such as miley sickness and "lady"gag, who knowingly and uncaringly, negatively program young children for money and status?

As I see it, Loopzdaloop has drawn a dividing line through the grey areas of political celeb correctness, and said in a nutshell: People should take responsibilitiy for their own actions, and if they refuse to, they must be prepared to accept the concequences thereof, especially as for some strange reason, slebs are seen as Demi gods by the young and impressionable (and sometimes not so young). They mostly couldn't give a flying toss about the children whose lives they ruin.

Willpower and discipline commendable traits that need to be exercised and nutured because they build good character. So when we blame peoples lack of self discipline on mental health we absolve them of their social responsibilities.

We are not all born equal, or perfect but
 but we do have the means for self improvement, to make good choices - and to say a big fat No! for our and others well being.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by plebgate on 16.04.14 15:23

I agree with a lot of what LoopzdaL posted.   Some people may have a predisposition to become addicted, but if someone has successfully given up for a number of years and then starts taking it again,  WHY?   

As LdaL pointed out, Peaches was from a very well off family, had opportunites given at the age of 16 that the majority will never have in a life time - why not ask for help before starting up again (if that was the case).

Knowing that you have 2 young children who will now grow up without their mum, knowing what life was like because of the traumatic events in her own life, why could she not ask for help and more importantly where were all these admiring friends when she so obviously needed help?

IMO drugs and alcoholism is very much glamourised these days and we always have to have tremendous pity for the addicts and give applause when they kick their habit.   WHY?  

I saw earlier that the drug taking, rent boy loving former chief of the Co-OP bank has now been charged in relation to coke offences.    Maybe he has an illness which has led to to coke and rentboy addiction.   Should he be charged or should he be treated in hospital for his illnesses?

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by Guest on 16.04.14 17:00

It's an interesting debate about addiction and choice, but - on this thread about Peaches - has there been any indication that she had relapsed and used drugs? If so, I must have missed that.

As for her sudden and unexpected decease, I still hold the opinion that having a weak heart [maybe caused or enhanced by unhealthy habits previously] and then going on a crash diet of juices only, might have been the cause for a sudden collapse. I have seen photos of her of just a couple of years ago, where she's indeed somewhat overweight but looks healthy, almost beaming, and recent ones, where she's just a shadow of herself and looking very frail ...

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by russiandoll on 16.04.14 18:48

@aiyoyo wrote:Drug abuse and alcoholism is not an illness, it is an addiction.
It is not a medical condition, as such not recognized as illness by medical field or authority,  but can have related illness because of it.

Illness is involuntary condition, whereas addiction is voluntary decision.

The British Medical Association, after years of indecision, now classes addiction as a mental illness. So does the American Medical Association.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-442580/Is-addiction-illness-weakness.html#ixzz2z2Z79J3z
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


 I see aiyoyo, it is not an illness but the BMA and AMA have both classified addiction as a mental illness. Thanks for that.

 
Alcohol, heroin, cocaine - any abusive drug - share one common feature. They release large amounts of dopamine into the system. So, in the addict's brain, the pleasure system breaks down and the drug of choice becomes your route to survival.

Choice is thus eroded. It is further eroded because the area of the brain that exerts free will - as opposed to the most basic human survival instincts - is the cortex.

In a healthy brain, the frontal cortex exerts control over the lower 'survival' brain. But if stress - particularly the kind associated with fear, anxiety and other symptoms of addiction - is severe enough, this situation reverses, allowing the unconscious and involuntary areas of the brain to decide on your survival strategy. In other words, the freedom of choice to behave as you wish is taken away.


 LdL I decided not to get into a to and fro with you as we are as far apart as we could be on our attitude to addiction. I will simply say that I have sympathy for addicts from whatever social class.
 I am now bowing out of this topic.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by Cristobell on 16.04.14 18:57

Châtelaine wrote:It's an interesting debate about addiction and choice, but - on this thread about Peaches - has there been any indication that she had relapsed and used drugs? If so, I must have missed that.

As for her sudden and unexpected decease, I still hold the opinion that having a weak heart [maybe caused or enhanced by unhealthy habits previously] and then going on a crash diet of juices only, might have been the cause for a sudden collapse. I have seen photos of her of just a couple of years ago, where she's indeed somewhat overweight but looks healthy, almost beaming, and recent ones, where she's just a shadow of herself and looking very frail ...
I think so too Chatelaine, she was desperately thin in her most recent photographs.  It is frightening to see so many young girls striving to achieve that ridiculous Size 0, its so dangerous.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by Cristobell on 16.04.14 19:01

@russiandoll wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Drug abuse and alcoholism is not an illness, it is an addiction.
It is not a medical condition, as such not recognized as illness by medical field or authority,  but can have related illness because of it.

Illness is involuntary condition, whereas addiction is voluntary decision.

The British Medical Association, after years of indecision, now classes addiction as a mental illness. So does the American Medical Association.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-442580/Is-addiction-illness-weakness.html#ixzz2z2Z79J3z
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


 I see aiyoyo, it is not an illness but the BMA and AMA have both classified addiction as a mental illness. Thanks for that.

 
Alcohol, heroin, cocaine - any abusive drug - share one common feature. They release large amounts of dopamine into the system. So, in the addict's brain, the pleasure system breaks down and the drug of choice becomes your route to survival.

Choice is thus eroded. It is further eroded because the area of the brain that exerts free will - as opposed to the most basic human survival instincts - is the cortex.

In a healthy brain, the frontal cortex exerts control over the lower 'survival' brain. But if stress - particularly the kind associated with fear, anxiety and other symptoms of addiction - is severe enough, this situation reverses, allowing the unconscious and involuntary areas of the brain to decide on your survival strategy. In other words, the freedom of choice to behave as you wish is taken away.


 LdL I decided not to get into a to and fro with you as we are as far apart as we could be on our attitude to addiction. I will simply say that I have sympathy for addicts from whatever social class.
 I am now bowing out of this topic.
Thats possibly the best explanation I have ever seen of addiction RD, thank you.  Its one of those things I will always remember.

I feel the same as yourself, I have nothing but sympathy for addicts of whatever social class, and I hope you don't bow out, as you are giving us some very useful and insightful information.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by aiyoyo on 16.04.14 19:45

The judgementals here judging the judgementals !

When you say people are judgemental you are judging them so what's the difference?

I am thoroughly bemused by the hypocrisy.

Get off your high horses people, you are no better than those you criticised!

Life is all about judgements, we live in a judgemental world, face it!

Hundreds are dying from a sunk ferry and people are feeling sorry for an IT girl who died in mysterious circumstance leaving behind her two young babies husband etc.  Her decisions were hers but the consequence was those who survived her to bear.  
We expect sink estates dwellers to rise above their dysfunctional background and break free from the chain yet we condone an indulged albeit confused rich and infamous.  Her life to live and her life to destroy, simple as that.




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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by aiyoyo on 16.04.14 19:58

@russiandoll wrote:[

 ...... it is not an illness but the BMA and AMA have both classified addiction as a mental illness.

 Mental illness of the kind brought about by addiction is not the same as physiological illness.
There is a mark distinction between those two. One has a full or partial self contributory factor requiring counselling to treat ,whereas the other one is involuntary needing medicines to treat or cure.
No comparison IMO.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by Woofer on 16.04.14 21:59

@DNAman wrote:
@loopzdaloop wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Goodness - how very harshly judgemental.  LdLoop - are you of the mindset that also condemns alcoholism as not being an illness.   Please remember that we all inherit predispositions to certain illnesses, psychologies and none of us have control over our nurture.

Drinking too much alcohol on a regular basis is not an illness and nobody is 'predisposed' to do it.
Alcohol and drugs are a creation of humans and as such un biologically related. Its similar to saying that 'driving too fast' is an illness. Driving too fast can result in harm to self or others, as well as social and financial problems but you are not
Going to argue that people have a predisposition to it.

The use of alcohol and drugs is a socially learnt behaviour.
Attitudes towards it are a result of the attitudes of your most intimate social circle.
People have an awareness of risks of doing things through education, either public or rehab but at the end of the day it falls on the individual to weigh up whats really important to them.
OMG I cannot believe what I have just read.  Certainly the initial decision to have a drink or take a drug is a choice. However some people do have a genetic & physiological predisposition to become addicted to either the effects or in certain cases to the actual drug. We are only just beginning to identify the genetics behind this predisposition. We are a long way from fully understanding what happens in an addicts brain, but there is little doubt that some people are far more easily addicted than others. Yes social influences also play a part but they are far from being the whole story.

Thank you DNAman  clapping

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by notlongnow on 17.04.14 1:06

Hmmmm as an ex addict there are some strange thoughts on this thread.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by Snifferdog on 17.04.14 7:56

As an ex smoker ADDICTED to cigarettes for many years, I believe I also have "'n straaltjie te piepie" here. If I believed that it was my lot in life to stay addicted to cigarettes, due to genes and hence an addict), I may perhaps never persevered through with giving up smoking the "sleg gif pyle". I don't if it is true, but I have heard it said that stopping a smoking addiction is harder than kicking a heroin addiction?
A little Afrikaans sprinkled in especially for dear Châtelaine  big grin

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by PeterMac on 17.04.14 8:36

@notlongnow wrote:Hmmmm as an ex addict there are some strange thoughts on this thread.
I think you make the point well.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by tigger on 17.04.14 8:45

@aiyoyo wrote:
@russiandoll wrote:[

 ...... it is not an illness but the BMA and AMA have both classified addiction as a mental illness.

 Mental illness of the kind brought about by addiction is not the same as physiological illness.  
There is a mark distinction between those two.  One has a full or partial self contributory factor requiring counselling to treat ,whereas the other one is involuntary needing medicines to treat or cure.
No comparison IMO.

I know a number of alcoholics, one who knows it will kill her if she relapses (again) two others who feel that 2to3 bottles of wine a day are not excessive.
I'm afraid that the first mentioned is a dreadful bore about her martyr status as 'recovering alcoholic' despite having been one for years. I have helped and encouraged her - phoned AA and made her see that it is an illness but that she had options.

The wine drinkers I treated the same, but they are not addicted - both smoke like chimneys as well - they claim, they're never so drunk that they pass out. I can't help them, the best I can do and always do is to say bluntly that they are alcoholics. It's a condition, it's up to the alcoholic to change and there are plenty of institutions to help them.

As for drugs, a GP described me amphetamines for a weight problem and tiredness when I was 18. For two weeks I was very happy, lost a stone in weight and had loads of energy. The two weeks after that I had a deep depression and couldn't stop eating. My mother was heavily addicted to various patent medicines on which she would overdose almost daily so I recognised the signs.
The above episode - after two weeks of depression I was heavier than when I started - I resolved not to go for the second batch of uppers. Nobody advised me or warned me about the effects. I made a choice on the basis of the big depression I never wanted to have again, not on the basis of feeling on top of the world for two weeks. (Btw how much addiction is/was started by a GP prescribing valium/uppers/downers/prozac?)

So if you have plenty of money, moreover have two children, keeping in good health isn't an option imo. It's a duty. I feel sorry for a wasted life which might not be wasted if - as Aiyoyo pointed out- the world wasn't so judgemental over appearance and superficial things of no importance.

This btw is a brilliant discussion with everybody here putting their points across as if we are a debating society. We may disagree, but isn't it all beautifully and clearly debated. No sniping, but passionately defending one's point of view.  roses  roses  empathy 


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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by jozi on 17.04.14 8:57

@aiyoyo wrote:The judgementals here judging the judgementals !

When you say people are judgemental you are judging them so what's the difference?

I am thoroughly bemused by the hypocrisy.

Get off your high horses people, you are no better than those you criticised!

Life is all about judgements, we live in a judgemental world, face it!

Hundreds are dying from a sunk ferry and people are feeling sorry for an IT girl who died in mysterious circumstance leaving behind her two young babies husband etc.  Her decisions were hers but the consequence was those who survived her to bear.  
We expect sink estates dwellers to rise above their dysfunctional background and break free from the chain yet we condone an indulged albeit confused rich and infamous.  Her life to live and her life to destroy, simple as that.

 thumbsup  Sad to say but its true aiyoyo....People should watch Celebrity Rehab a program that was shown here in South Africa about the celebs and their way of life in Hollywood , you will be amazed at just how many celebrities are drug addicts and they all got one thing in common........Poor Me !!!




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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by littlepixie on 17.04.14 9:50

Never ceases to amaze me just how many women in their sixties and seventies tell me they are addicted to sleeping tablets or anti-depressants. They don't see themselves as drug addicts but they are.

As for the wine drinkers - don't get me started!!!
Many, many closet addicts out there looking down their noses at others.
Then there are people I have known who drank themselves to death, who knew they were drinking themselves to death and chose to carry on. A bit like a slow suicide.
Very sad.

We should all be thankful for each day we don't relapse.
I am.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by Guest on 17.04.14 9:57

I have set up a new topic specifically about the problem of addictions if anyone would like to contribute to that.

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Re: Peaches Geldof found dead, aged just 25

Post by sallypelt on 30.04.14 23:09

Peaches Geldof died form a heroin overdose, according to tomorrow's Times newspaper


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