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White Flags

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Re: White Flags

Post by j.rob on 31.03.14 15:39

Either that or they are just delusional.

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Re: White Flags

Post by rainbow-fairy on 31.03.14 20:43

Seriously, I can't think of one. Whichever scenario I look at the MC's are culpable. I trust the dogs and I trust forensic linguistics. They have told us what happened though not the details...

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Re: White Flags

Post by XTC on 31.03.14 21:27

@Bishop Brennan wrote:Returning to the op question about white flags - things that might suggest innocence. I would put forward the fact that the body has never been found. If Amaral was right and they did conceal a body, this was a tough task. Unfamiliar with PDL, no transport, little time.  

Of course this particular white flag became somewhat muddied with Gerry's infamous snarl to the world to "find the body and prove we killed her."   

PS.  Perhaps another possible thread there?  Things I bet they wish they had never said...
What if someone - not one of the parents - moved the body - not on foot -and didn't tell the parents where they moved it to?

If that person knew the reason why the body had to be moved and was jointly culpable for the death- accidental or otherwise
then it would be best all round if only one person knows where the body is? That way no other person - except the remover - genuinely knows where it is.

The less links in the chain the less chance of the chain breaking.

A more cynical view could be - move the body - blackmail the parents. This is why bank details were important when Amaral and his team were around. Perhaps Mr Redwood should check just in case. This is a strange tale with some strange actors.

Just an out there thought though.

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Re: White Flags

Post by plebgate on 31.03.14 21:44

The police must be going to check their statements at some point (if not already).

Mr. Lee Rainbow's comments surely cannot be ignored.

How can the police really investigate anything that any of the crew have said when there are so many inconsistencies?

As Tony has pointed out several times, Murat changed statement, inconsistencies in the Tapas Crew statements, IMO until they are re-interviewed and it pointed out that there are inconsistencies and Mr. asked why he changed his statement, all of this will only keep going round in circles.

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Re: White Flags

Post by j.rob on 01.04.14 12:51

@XTC wrote:
@Bishop Brennan wrote:Returning to the op question about white flags - things that might suggest innocence. I would put forward the fact that the body has never been found. If Amaral was right and they did conceal a body, this was a tough task. Unfamiliar with PDL, no transport, little time.  

Of course this particular white flag became somewhat muddied with Gerry's infamous snarl to the world to "find the body and prove we killed her."   

PS.  Perhaps another possible thread there?  Things I bet they wish they had never said...
What if someone - not one of the parents - moved the body - not on foot -and didn't tell the parents where they moved it to?

If that person knew the reason why the body had to be moved and was jointly culpable for the death- accidental or otherwise
then it would be best all round if only one person knows where the body is? That way no other person - except the remover - genuinely knows where it is.

The less links in the chain the less chance of the chain breaking.

A more cynical view could be - move the body - blackmail the parents. This is why bank details were important when Amaral and his team were around. Perhaps Mr Redwood should check just in case. This is a strange tale with some strange actors.

Just an out there thought though.
There are indications that other people have been involved in the 'disappearance' of Madeleine, not just the parents. Dr Roberts has made an interesting analysis of some of Gerry and Kate's earlier interviews in which there are allusions to a 'hand over'. Also allusions as to where Madeleine might be with a possible suggestion that either one or both of the parents do not know for sure. Gerry talks a lot about 'keys' so one assumes that 'keys' or 'a key' are an important part of the case. And, logically, one can see why. Someone or several people let themselves into the apartment where Madeleine was (and this may not have been 5A - she may have been in another apartment when removed) and took her away from it. 

Kate's "they have taken her" cry, as reported by at least impartial eye-witness,  is of interest. (although in her book she has changed this to: "Someone's taken her.") Nevertheless, Yvonne Warren,  the social worker who spoke to Kate at 9am on the day after Madeleine disappeared, said in her police witness statement that Kate told her that a couple had abducted Madeleine. Which made Yvonne suspicious as did other aspects of their behaviour and David Payne's behaviour. And the fact that a group of doctors would leave their children unattended. Suspicious enough to write to the police and tell them she thought the parents could be involved in Madeleine's disappearance.And she also thought she recognized David Payne through a professional capacity but could not remember the  circumstances. So she wanted the police to check whether he was on the paedophile or child abuse register.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm


There is also a curious passage (among the very many) in Kate's book (page 92) where she describes how, after being questioned by the police on Friday, they were being driven back to the resort at 7.30pm when, about 10-15 minutes into the journey the office had a call from his station and the car swung around and drove back at high speed.

"I cannot overstate how terrifying this was. Had Madeleine been found? Please God. Was she alive? Was she dead? Gerry and I hung onto each other for dear life. I was crying hysterically and praying for all I was worth."

What exactly was so terrifying about this episode for Kate and Gerry? The McCanns were supposedly trying to find their kidnapped child so you might think that among all the other emotions that one can only really imagine (unless your child has been kidnapped) there would at least be a thread of hope that your child would be found alive. Otherwise, what was the point of the Fund?

 I would suggest that they both terrified that Madeleine had been found by the police - either dead or alive - and that they were clinging on to each other in fear of what this would mean for them, imo. 

The 10 minutes while they waited at the police station, not knowing what to expect, were described by Kate as "ten minutes of torture."

Indeed. Enough to put the fear of God into the pair of them.

Thankfully for the pair, the little girl wasn't Madeleine. "And that was that," writes Kate, somewhat surprisingly. That flat little remark, following the terrifying drama of the preceding half hour of so, would be bewildering coming from parents who are trying to find their missing daughter. You would expect an emotional cascade - the desperate hope that your child might have been found - only to have those hopes dashed. Or at least you would expect some kind of emotional response to carry on after the sighting.

But no - simply, "that was that." However, in the context of a couple who are not trying to find their daughter, and are hoping very much that the police do not find her, imo, that dead-pan sentence would suggest that there WAS a cascade of emotions following the sighting, only the emotions were one of relief, imo. 

And even Kate who so often tells us what really happened in her book, is obliged to bury their true emotions on realizing that the police had not found Madeleine, imo.

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Re: White Flags

Post by PeterMac on 01.04.14 13:11

@j.rob wrote:
 I would suggest that they both terrified that Madeleine had been found by the police - either dead or alive - and that they were clinging on to each other in fear of what this would mean for them, imo. 
The 10 minutes while they waited at the police station, not knowing what to expect, were described by Kate as "ten minutes of torture."
Indeed. Enough to put the fear of God into the pair of them.
Thankfully for the pair, the little girl wasn't Madeleine. "And that was that," writes Kate, somewhat surprisingly. That flat little remark, following the terrifying drama of the preceding half hour of so, would be bewildering coming from parents who are trying to find their missing daughter. You would expect an emotional cascade - the desperate hope that your child might have been found - only to have those hopes dashed. Or at least you would expect some kind of emotional response to carry on after the sighting.
But no - simply, "that was that." However, in the context of a couple who are not trying to find their daughter, and are hoping very much that the police do not find her, imo, that dead-pan sentence would suggest that there WAS a cascade of emotions following the sighting, only the emotions were one of relief, imo. 
And even Kate who so often tells us what really happened in her book, is obliged to bury their true emotions on realizing that the police had not found Madeleine, imo.


Why would they be terrified that Madeleine had been found ALIVE ? Elated, joyful, ecstatic perhaps, but terrified ?
Terrified that she had been found dead, certainly we can all understand
And that would apply equally whether she had been abducted or her body hidden.

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Re: White Flags

Post by ultimaThule on 01.04.14 13:15

@plebgate wrote:The police must be going to check their statements at some point (if not already).

Mr. Lee Rainbow's comments surely cannot be ignored.

How can the police really investigate anything that any of the crew have said when there are so many inconsistencies?

As Tony has pointed out several times, Murat changed statement, inconsistencies in the Tapas Crew statements, IMO until they are re-interviewed and it pointed out that there are inconsistencies and Mr. asked why he changed his statement, all of this will only keep going round in circles.
IMO we should be exceedingly grateful that the rogatory interviews were conducted in the manner they were because I suspect that if the Tapas 7 and Murat are pressed about inconsistencies in their statements, calls will be made to lawyers with the result that all further questions will be met with 'no comment'.

While I believe the wee one's overinflated opinion of his distinctly average IQ will persuade him that he can talk his way out of any discrepancies apparent in his various statements to the police and the media, I can't see any criminal lawyer worthy of the name counselling him to continue dropping himself in it, which he is wont to do every time he opens his contemptuous mouth. 

As for his spouse, no doubt she'll resort to her time-honoured chant while refusing to answer what must now be in excess of 1,048 questions, plebgate.

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Re: White Flags

Post by mysterion on 01.04.14 13:32

Out of interest, what is Gerry`s IQ?

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Re: White Flags

Post by j.rob on 01.04.14 13:56

@PeterMac wrote:
@j.rob wrote:
 I would suggest that they both terrified that Madeleine had been found by the police - either dead or alive - and that they were clinging on to each other in fear of what this would mean for them, imo. 
The 10 minutes while they waited at the police station, not knowing what to expect, were described by Kate as "ten minutes of torture."
Indeed. Enough to put the fear of God into the pair of them.
Thankfully for the pair, the little girl wasn't Madeleine. "And that was that," writes Kate, somewhat surprisingly. That flat little remark, following the terrifying drama of the preceding half hour of so, would be bewildering coming from parents who are trying to find their missing daughter. You would expect an emotional cascade - the desperate hope that your child might have been found - only to have those hopes dashed. Or at least you would expect some kind of emotional response to carry on after the sighting.
But no - simply, "that was that." However, in the context of a couple who are not trying to find their daughter, and are hoping very much that the police do not find her, imo, that dead-pan sentence would suggest that there WAS a cascade of emotions following the sighting, only the emotions were one of relief, imo. 
And even Kate who so often tells us what really happened in her book, is obliged to bury their true emotions on realizing that the police had not found Madeleine, imo.


Why would they be terrified that Madeleine had been found ALIVE ?  Elated, joyful, ecstatic perhaps, but terrified ?
Terrified that she had been found dead, certainly we can all understand
And that would apply equally whether she had been abducted or her body hidden.

Yes, this passage is such a give-away. The terror and torture that Kate is describing would be consistent with a genuine parent who is clinging on to a hope that their child is still alive, while also, presumably, having to, on one level or another, deal with the possibility that your child might not still be alive. 

"Had Madeleine been found?  Please God. Was she alive? Was she dead?"

If Kate had written: "Had Madeleine been found? Please God she is alive" that would convey the sentiment that she is desperate that the police have found Madeleine alive.

But Kate gives equal weighting to the possibility of Madeleine being found alive as to Madeleine being found dead.

Which suggests that Kate's fear does not revolve primarily around Madeleine being dead. It revolves around Madeleine having been found by the police - either alive or dead. 

And Gerry's first address to the media at 10pm that evening is also revealing: "Words cannot describe the anguish and despair that we are feeling as the parents of our beautiful daughter Madeleine."

Notice how the anguish and despair is not connected with the disappearance of Madeleine in this sentence. The sentence is all about Gerry and Kate and has nothing to do with Madeleine, imo. She is merely the convenient band-wagon onto which they can attach themselves, imo as they designate themselves to the lofty status of Celebrity Grieving Parents of an Abducted Beautiful Daughter.

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Re: White Flags

Post by ultimaThule on 01.04.14 14:47

@mysterion wrote:Out of interest, what is Gerry`s IQ?
Mensa material he ain't and neither is his spouse, or any of the Tapas 7, mysterion.

I would rate the wee one's IQ as being no more than 110-112 which is far short of the 145+++ he'd award himself. 

In terms of emotional intelligence it's highly unlikely he'd register a score as, IMO, he has no emotions which can be attributed to being of the human variety.

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Re: White Flags

Post by mysterion on 01.04.14 16:04

I`m amazed that it is possible to estimate someone`s IQ.

What is his height? Something I don`t take any interest in, personally. Is he unusually small?

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Re: White Flags

Post by j.rob on 01.04.14 16:07

They both strike me as not particularly intelligent. I'm quite surprised they qualified as doctors as you do need to have a pretty high IQ in order to pass the medical training in the UK. 

 I can see why they got together - they share many of the same characteristics. I am just wondering if Madeleine did not inherit the 'narcissism' gene (and any other anti-social genes they may or may not have)  and they therefore couldn't or wouldn't bond with her? Perhaps they recognized that as she got older she would 'see right through' them.

Kate makes a nasty little comment in her book, in relation to Madeleine being very excited about the forthcoming holiday to the Algarve: 

"Madeleine was so excited about going on a plane, and about going on holiday with her buddies. At nursery she was full of it. When I went to pick her up the girls who looked after her there would comment: 'I hear you're going to Portugal! or 'Someone can't wait for her holiday!"

Using the description "full of it" in relation to a person - especially a very young child - is incredibly derogatory. You might be reasonably entitled to describe an over-cocky adult as being "full of it" (which has the connotation of 'full of sh**'. ) but to use that expression in the context of a very young child sounds incredibly demeaning, nasty and spiteful.

Kate could have written, for instance: "At nursery she talked about it the whole time." Or even just have omitted that sentence completely. And then contrast the tone and connotation of: "She was full of it" with the kindly and mothering tone implied in the reported speech from the nannies: 'Someone can't wait for their holiday!'

The latter sentence is entirely appropriate as the terminology carries with it the connotation of a responsible,  caring adult sharing and encouraging a child's excitement and feeling happy for them.

Just a shame that the mother of the child was not able to share and encourage her daughter's excitement, instead describing Madeleine as "being full of it."

I don't think either parent had bonded properly with Madeleine and the arrival of twins (effectively a 'ready made' family of a boy and girl') tragically made Madeleine 'surplus to requirements'. It sounds as though Kate struggled to cope (she describes how when breast-feeding one or other of the twins the other would not only be getting hungry and grumpy but  "would also be vulnerable to attack from a big sister needing attention. Sometimes I would be feeding one baby and pushing the other's rocker with my foot while a small girl clambered across my shoulders."

Notice how she does not use Madeleine's name - she is 'a big sister' and - just about as impersonal as you can get - 'a small girl'.

Why the heck didn't these two doctors get some extra help, for goodness sake? They can't have been that poor. An extra pair of hands to make things easier. 

Oops, I forgot, the McCann's don't like to hire babysitters. 

Is it true that the McCann's were considering handing over Madeleine to the care of relatives, which was one of Amaral's questions?

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Re: White Flags

Post by PeterMac on 01.04.14 16:17

@mysterion wrote:I`m amazed that it is possible to estimate someone`s IQ.
His command of English grammar is, or at least was, woeful.
Their combined inability to distinguish between the nominative and accusative made them stand out very early on
though it is very noticeable that this has been corrected over the past few years, and now they get it right more often.
His malapropisms and solecisms are legend
and his general inarticulacy in interview is worthy of comment
As it is incidentally for the entire range of Tapas group members

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Re: White Flags

Post by tigger on 01.04.14 16:47

J.rob wrote:
Kate could have written, for instance: "At nursery she talked about it the whole time." Or even just have omitted that sentence completely. And then contrast the tone and connotation of: "She was full of it" with the kindly and mothering tone implied in the reported speech from the nannies: 'Someone can't wait for their holiday!'
Unquote


Imo they didn't talk to their  children much. We have no reports at all of the funny things children say. i have a nephew of just two. i'm finally finding him interesting  because he's talking and I could carry on these weird conversations with him all day.
That amazing enthusiasm of these little people, it's such fun. None of that comes across with the McCanns.

As far as that journey goes, I believe they were petrified Maddie  had been found.

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Re: White Flags

Post by rustyjames on 01.04.14 17:37

@View-from-Ireland wrote:That they didn't just let the story die year ago. 

This is the one thing that plays on my mind.They have seemingly tried everything possible to keep it alive. Now I understand that it could be some psychological desire to be caught so that their intelligence would be revealed, but it is one to ponder.

Compared to hundreds of red flags there is only this, (there was an interview in which Gerry said he feared the media and publicity would quickly disappear in the first weeks but I can't find it), and the fact I can't imagine I would personally be able to hide anything happening to my daughter regardless of the consequences.  That said not being able to map any of their behaviour onto how I believe I would react under any of the possible scenarios is a major red flag.

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Re: White Flags

Post by petunia on 01.04.14 20:52

Brilliant post J.rob..Kate doesn't come across as having a lot of patience and after reading you post it breaks my heart to think what kate would really have been thinking while feeding one of the twins and have Madeleine jumping all over her at the time, and even more heartbreaking to think what she could have/ would have done to Madeleine to punish her for doing so.all in my own opinion.

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Re: White Flags

Post by Guest on 01.04.14 21:10

j.rob wrote:


"Madeleine was so excited about going on a plane, and about going on holiday with her buddies. At nursery she was full of it. When I went to pick her up the girls who looked after her there would comment: 'I hear you're going to Portugal! or 'Someone can't wait for her holiday!"

Unquote

Actually, to be fair, I have heard this expression used in Wales a lot and there it is not derogatory at all - it just means that they are full to bursting at the seams with excitement over something, not a nasty or spiteful thing to say whatsoever.  It is quite commonly used there, especially amongst older people and mainly used in describing children. 

It is not in any way associated with the "full of sh*t term" - very far from it.


And breast feeding two young children with one clambering all over you - well rather her than me is all I can say.

I think the above is the only charitable things I could ever say about the Mccanns - but I do like to be fair.  big grin

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Re: White Flags

Post by Guest on 01.04.14 21:37

It's heartbreaking reading that paragraph, j.rob.  Kate really does resent Madeleine - using words such as "attacked" to describe the behaviour of a 2+ year old, quite inappropriate and lacking sensitivity.  Did she really give birth to her?  After reading about G's sister, Jacqueline, and the puzzle about MBM being a Ward of Court (I do not understand why), IMO perhaps Kate isn't her biological mother.

BCB, what part of Wales did you hear the phrase, "full of it"?

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Re: White Flags

Post by petunia on 02.04.14 0:08

Heartbreaking indeed LIR..after reading J..robs post it got me thinking, what did Madeleine really  suffer at the hands of her mother when she was alone with her,when Gerry was at work for instance..Over the past 7 years of following this case i have always felt in my mind that Kate would never have married Gerry in a million years and she fled to NZ to get away from him but Gerry been narcissist Gerry had already set his heart on her and would have her at all costs.Once the lion had his lioness he probably treated her like a queen,bestowing on her great flattery and affection and the spoilt child Kate fell for it hook line and sinker and they got married.with marriage comes at least one if not more children and they must of tried the natural way to have a child but after tests it was confirmed Gerry was a jaffa (nothing joke intended ) Gerry been a narcissist must have been furious at this news, his manly bit unable to produce what it was intended for, Kate on hearing this news imo was quite pleased..She didn't have to have children.. life was good she could carry on been the spoilt child she is.Gerry is having none of it He needs people to Know he is referred to has Madeleine and the twins dad, not
 that fella who can't have kids..to cut a long story short imo Madeleine has paid the ultimate price for selfish uncaring narcissist parents..god bless you Madeleine..

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Re: White Flags

Post by MissesWillYa on 02.04.14 0:20

I'm almost positive KM has stated that she has/had endometriosis. GM may have had his own fertility issues, but endometriosis can be a huge obstacle to successful reproduction all by itself. 

Here in the US, people might say an excited person is "full of beans" or "full of piss and vinegar." I suppose I can accept that she used the word "it" to stand in for another expression like one of these when describing Madeleine's excitement about their trip.

As to the topic of this thread, I have often thought about GM's behavior upon Madeleine's disappearance ("roaring like a bull") and that kind of behavior does seem, at least on the surface, to fit somewhat with terrible shock. The praying and all that seemed to fit with more grief in my mind, and I'm not sure there's any reason to grieve upon discovering that a child is missing. Under normal circumstances of disappearance, you have no idea where a person is or what may have happened to them, so it doesn't seem to me that grief is an appropriate response.

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Re: White Flags

Post by tigger on 02.04.14 7:30

@petunia wrote:Heartbreaking indeed LIR..after reading J..robs post it got me thinking, what did Madeleine really  suffer at the hands of her mother when she was alone with her,when Gerry was at work for instance..Over the past 7 years of following this case i have always felt in my mind that Kate would never have married Gerry in a million years and she fled to NZ to get away from him but Gerry been narcissist Gerry had already set his heart on her and would have her at all costs.Once the lion had his lioness he probably treated her like a queen,bestowing on her great flattery and affection and the spoilt child Kate fell for it hook line and sinker and they got married.with marriage comes at least one if not more children and they must of tried the natural way to have a child but after tests it was confirmed Gerry was a jaffa (nothing joke intended ) Gerry been a narcissist must have been furious at this news, his manly bit unable to produce what it was intended for, Kate on hearing this news imo was quite pleased..She didn't have to have children.. life was good she could carry on been the spoilt child she is.Gerry is having none of it He needs people to Know he is referred to has Madeleine and the twins dad, not
 that fella who can't have kids..to cut a long story short imo Madeleine has paid the ultimate price for selfish uncaring narcissist parents..god bless you Madeleine..

From what I've read on the subject, it's often the case that when a psychopath/narcisist gets what he/she wants, that's it. Forget about treating her like a queen.
Actually there's a good example in Onassis and Callas' relationship. Once they were lovers he stopped giving her jewellery, where before he send her diamonds hidden in flower bouquets and so on.
When she asked him why he simply said :'You're mine now, I don't need to do that anymore'.

I'd think that following her to NZ must have been the same sort of thing. But all it was that Gerry wanted her, saw the ideal wife there to fit in with his ambitions in the New Labour celebrity culture of the nineties.
He chose the wrong woman, one who should have married a very rich, very besotted older man imo. she'd have been fine.

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white flag

Post by mariola on 02.04.14 9:15

Gerry sounds very effeminate  to native glaswegians.Maybe he has testosterone issues.

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Re: White Flags

Post by HelenMeg on 02.04.14 9:48

@mariola wrote:Gerry sounds very effeminate  to native glaswegians.Maybe he has testosterone issues.
He seems to be one of those individuals who always has to prove himself - through status, status symbols,  - as if he craves one thing and one thing only - respect. Because of this need for respect - he could never slink off into the background regarding this case, he always has to re-emerge into the limelight until he satisfies his unconscious craving - that
the UK public respect and believe that he played no part in his daughter's disappearance.  So we are destined to see him for ever more until justice prevails. Mrs

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Re: White Flags

Post by Mirage on 02.04.14 10:13

HelenMeg wrote:

He seems to be one of those individuals who always has to prove himself - through status, status symbols,  - as if he craves one thing and one thing only - respect. Because of this need for respect - he could never slink off into the background regarding this case, he always has to re-emerge into the limelight:[/quote]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you trying to break it to us gently HelenMeg - that there is aab-soo-lutely noooh evidence that Geraldo is going to retire quietly into the background? God help us all, he could try a singing career next with the T7 and the government of the day as his backing group..

R-E-S-P-E-C-T. find out what it means to me

Oh (sock it to me, sock it to me,
sock it to me, sock it to me
)
A little respect (sock it to me, sock it to me,
sock it to me, sock it to me
)
Whoa, babe (just a little bit)
A little respect (just a little bit)
I get tired (just a little bit)
Keep on tryin' (just a little bit)
You're runnin' out of foolin' (just a little bit)
And I ain't lyin' (just a little bit)
(re, re, re, re) 'spect

No babe, even though he's tired he's gonna keep on tryin'. He ain't run out of foolin'.. And he sure ain't lying - as  ace music industry manager Clearance B Snitch-All told fans and backers yesterday.

Geraldo and the Pacemakers?? Old Clearnance  likes to put a spin on the improbable. Go for it Gerry. More offers to mismanage you for another decade will pour in and decrease your popularity beyond your wildest dreams. Go for it - leave no phone unspurned

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Re: White Flags

Post by Guest on 02.04.14 10:21

@mariola wrote:Gerry sounds very effeminate  to native glaswegians.Maybe he has testosterone issues.

As he has Irish parents he would have grown up acquiring their speech patterns and accents, so perhaps he speaks with a combination of accents which makes him sound different to native Glaswegians.

He sounds whiny to me.

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