The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Welcome to 'The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann' forum 🌹

Please log in, or register to view all the forums as some of them are 'members only', then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.

When you register please do NOT use your email address for a username because everyone will be able to see it!

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Post by aiyoyo 06.04.14 10:24

russiandoll wrote:Aiyoyo, which part are you referring to? Which words from the police officer's replies can you not reconcile with Redwood's " might not have been alive when she left the apartment? " = died in the apartment isn't it ? Or do you think he meant she died elsewhere and they brought her dead body back into the apartment ? Feasible ?
BTW is that direct quote from Redwood?
If it is, he is careful with his words, again not easy to decipher what he meant, as in died in the apt or dead body moved into the apt?


 Redwood said that Maddie might have been dead when she was moved from the apartment. That can be reconciled with the dog alerts, whether he says so or not.
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Post by russiandoll 06.04.14 10:33

aiyoyo, from what I have read I believe that Maddie probably died in 5a, however the dog alerts do not tell us anything other than there was a body[ presumably Maddie's ] in 5a. I think it unlikely that Maddie died elsewhere and was brought back to the apartment, because imo if that had happened she would not have been placed behind the sofa.

 I simply think that as you say, certain people are being very careful with what they are saying. The police officer was being very firm about the limitations of the dog alerts, that is all I was trying to say.

 The bottom line though, is that if an alive, sleeping Maddie did not leave 5a, unless there is evidence given the timeline and statements, that a stranger could have entered, killed then removed her, there is knowledge on the parents' part that their daughter was not asleep when they went for their meal.

____________________



             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy

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Post by Guest 06.04.14 10:44

russiandoll wrote: [...] there is knowledge on the parents' part that their daughter was not asleep when they went for their meal.
***
Definitely agree with you, after having seen long ago Kate's toe-curling reaction to a very simple question: "Was she asleep when you left her?" ...
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Post by aiyoyo 06.04.14 11:14

russiandoll wrote:aiyoyo, from what I have read I believe that Maddie probably died in 5a, however the dog alerts do not tell us anything other than there was a body[ presumably Maddie's ] in 5a. I think it unlikely that Maddie died elsewhere and was brought back to the apartment, because imo if that had happened she would not have been placed behind the sofa.

 I simply think that as you say, certain people are being very careful with what they are saying. The police officer was being very firm about the limitations of the dog alerts, that is all I was trying to say.

 Was he ? being very firm about the dogs or limitations?   Are you sure ?
This had been discussed before, dogs can't name a corpse.  Officer's remark is not about that, CAN'T BE.
Since you believe Maddie likely died in the apartment as in let's assume this belief is shared by Redwood and unnamed Officer too, then by definition dogs alert is 100% fool proof isn't it doesn't matter about the finer point of dogs limitation?  
So which bit is "not strictly true"?  Dogs ? or death in the apartment ?

If Maddie did not die in 5A, who did, if dogs is to be believed - the question is down to that tout simplement.
If the dogs reliability is to be discounted then the death theory can be thrown out doesn't matter where she died.

What the officer meant is very obscure.  What Redw ood meant if the quote is attributable to him is a tad clearer ie a dead Maddie was abducted.


 The bottom line though, is that if an alive, sleeping Maddie did not leave 5a, unless there is evidence given the timeline and statements, that a stranger could have entered, killed then removed her, there is knowledge on the parents' part that their daughter was not asleep when they went for their meal.
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Post by aiyoyo 06.04.14 12:18

plebgate wrote:I have to ask - how do we know that the q & a conversation with the policeman did take place?  It may very well have, but  I do not know for sure.  That's my take on it and I do not propose answering anyone who posts telling me that it definitely did because without evidence I remain cautious.

Au contraire I believe it is genuine.



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Post by Cristobell 06.04.14 12:38

A minor point Tony but I don't think McCanns got anywhere near 100,000 signatures for their Petition, in fact I think it was around the 30,000 mark when the Review was granted.  Its my belief that the Petition was meant to go on indefinitely and that it was a ploy to get hits to that all important paypal button.
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Post by lj 06.04.14 18:18

tigger wrote:
lj wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:'Dictate'?!  Not at all, lj - I wouldn't dream of dictating what other members post on social networking sites.  However, IMO is it incumbent on those who are widely known to be associated with this site to refrain from publicly disseminating information which is blatantly untrue in connection with this case. 

While writing, if Grange is intent on a whitewash what do you envisgage will happen in the event the PJ's investigation concludes there is evidence to substantiate charges against the McCanns and/or their pals?

I remain of the opinion that you cannot tell members from this forum what they can write elsewhere. Sorry No Fate Worse Than De'Ath, I have my nails in but this as friendly as I can be. BTW I did not see anything about planning attacks?

Sorry my english today sucks. I have been speaking 4 languages all day, my head is spinning and I really can't find the right words so let me give you a quote:

John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.
Were an opinion a personal possession of no value except to the owner; if to be obstructed in the enjoyment of it were simply a private injury, it would make some difference whether the injury was inflicted only on a few persons or on many.
But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it.
If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.

What I think will happen is that the most PJ can come up with is hiding the body, and maybe neglect. I wonder if the statute of limitations won't come in  play then. But even if they are charged I think CR will do their thing, everyone will stall and stall. I think in the end the McCanns won't go to Portugal on free vacations anymore, the Portuguese are not heart broken about that and nothing will happen. The case goes silent until a body is being discovered.

Just putting my ha'penny worth in.
The above exchange is an excellent example on how to discuss a difference of opinion and conviction rationally and politely.

My opinion in this is that if a member has a high profile, either through generally being well informed or being a frequent  and long-time poster, it is incumbent on them to be careful what is stated as fact when it is only an opinion. Especially elsewhere.
For one thing JH has the distinction of being  under constant scrutiny  for legal reasons.

As for the statute of limitations in Portugal, lj - that's the beauty of it. there's another13 years to go before the case is closed.
I may be wrong and would love expert confirmation of this but all the remaining documents will then be published.

So perhaps it's the long view that's worrying the powers that be.

13 years?? I don't know how my computer will take that!  winkwink 

Yes, I too do think that is what is worrying the British side, all of them.

I know it has not been easy for JH, and I want to thank her again for her courage. I do hope that none of us are ever the cause of more trouble that TM already can make.

____________________
"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/
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Post by HelenMeg 07.04.14 10:50

I am feeling impatient with lack of news / lack of libel trial progress ... lack of everything.  When SY said the
investigation / review was upping the tempo (or words to that effect)  I should have known not to take any notice.. its coming up to 7th anniversary time now.. maybe the MSM have begged for one last photo opportunity .. for old times sake nah
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Post by petunia 07.04.14 22:24

HelenMeg the 7th Anniversary is indeed upon us and we have William,Kate and George touring new zealand, so maybe the royal couple will be as thoughtful has they were when William and Kate got married and they will delay all TV and newspaper interviews. imo if we are to get any news or interviews from the mccanns it will start from the 29th of April because imo the 29th of April is very significant to them.
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Post by ultimaThule 08.04.14 3:08

tigger wrote:
lj wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:'Dictate'?!  Not at all, lj - I wouldn't dream of dictating what other members post on social networking sites.  However, IMO is it incumbent on those who are widely known to be associated with this site to refrain from publicly disseminating information which is blatantly untrue in connection with this case. 

While writing, if Grange is intent on a whitewash what do you envisgage will happen in the event the PJ's investigation concludes there is evidence to substantiate charges against the McCanns and/or their pals?

I remain of the opinion that you cannot tell members from this forum what they can write elsewhere. Sorry No Fate Worse Than De'Ath, I have my nails in but this as friendly as I can be. BTW I did not see anything about planning attacks?

Sorry my english today sucks. I have been speaking 4 languages all day, my head is spinning and I really can't find the right words so let me give you a quote:

John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.
Were an opinion a personal possession of no value except to the owner; if to be obstructed in the enjoyment of it were simply a private injury, it would make some difference whether the injury was inflicted only on a few persons or on many.
But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it.
If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.

What I think will happen is that the most PJ can come up with is hiding the body, and maybe neglect. I wonder if the statute of limitations won't come in  play then. But even if they are charged I think CR will do their thing, everyone will stall and stall. I think in the end the McCanns won't go to Portugal on free vacations anymore, the Portuguese are not heart broken about that and nothing will happen. The case goes silent until a body is being discovered.

Just putting my ha'penny worth in.
The above exchange is an excellent example on how to discuss a difference of opinion and conviction rationally and politely.

My opinion in this is that if a member has a high profile, either through generally being well informed or being a frequent  and long-time poster, it is incumbent on them to be careful what is stated as fact when it is only an opinion. Especially elsewhere.
For one thing JH has the distinction of being  under constant scrutiny  for legal reasons.

As for the statute of limitations in Portugal, lj - that's the beauty of it. there's another13 years to go before the case is closed.
I may be wrong and would love expert confirmation of this but all the remaining documents will then be published.

So perhaps it's the long view that's worrying the powers that be.
As far as I'm aware, there is no statute of limitations on murder in Portugal or any other European country, including the UK, tigger.

In a case of this nature, after 7 years with no credible sighting of the child and in the absence of a body which may provide evidence of cause of death, the conclusion has to be murder albeit, at the time of writing, by person or persons unknown as it seems to me  no police force or other agency can come to a conclusion that a body has been hidden without first concluding that foul play caused need for that body to be concealed - ipso facto, as the latin has it.  

I agree Portugal is unlikely to be a holiday, free or otherwise, destination of choice for the McCanns who, of late, appear to have gone to some lengths to avoid setting foot in that country together, lj.   I also agree that it is highly unlikely the Portuguese will regard their absence as being any kind of loss, either to their economy or to their nation state, and I sincerely hope that the good people of Portugal will not suffer any further undue financial or other burden as a result of this couple's unscrupulous behaviour.

I also hope you accept that it was not my intention to dictate what other members write elsewhere and that my only concern as to what those most associated with this site put into the wider public domain is that it reflects the integrity of this forum and its owner.
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Post by lj 08.04.14 3:35

I brought the statute of limitations up in the case the Portuguese Prosecutor would want to file charges for neglect and/or hiding the body.

____________________
"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/
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Post by ultimaThule 08.04.14 6:04

lj wrote:I brought the statute of limitations up in the case the Portuguese Prosecutor would want to file charges for neglect and/or hiding the body.
As I see it, the time for charges of neglect/endangerment of Madeleine and her siblings has passed, lj, not by virtue of any statute of limitations but because if either investigation concludes that the child was abducted and is presumed murdered by person/persons unknown and charges of neglect/endangerment are brought against the McCanns, the clan's sympathy drum will beat out the tune of their having suffered enough and the gullible will not only dance to it, they'll throw more hard earned pennies into the limited company's hat.  In addition, it's unlikely any court would impose anything other than a mild reproof in such circumstances

Unless a hidden body is discovered there can be no charge of concealment per se, but in the absence of a body there can be a charge of murder, a second count of manslaughter, and additional charges of concealing the body and/or perverting the course of justice.
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