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The bedroom window

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by ultimaThule on 13.03.14 1:24

welcome Judex... and don't feel bad about your OP; we've all made blunders of varying magnitude and sometimes our screw-ups lead to more indepth debate which leaves us better informed, as has been the case here. 

You've got 'more accurate comments'?  Bring 'em on!  The more the merrier - I'm an advocate of merriment as a form of light relief because this case is one of the darkest I've encountererd and I've frequently felt the need for a stiff drink shower after contemplating the possible means by which a 3 year old child was made to vanish off the face of the earth.

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by columbostogeys on 13.03.14 6:21

@Judex Venturus wrote:I have so much  admiration for the  many intelligent posters on here that I feel absolutely dreadful that my very first post should contain such a goofy mistake!
Admin, could you possibly please "whoosh" my first post so that I can 'move on' ?? I do have more accurate comments to make in future posts!!  Thanks!!
Dont worry hun, everyone makes errors this case is highly complex and confusing.

The thing is, as you say the window is at least 12 feet drop, and this is one the police think the child could have fallen out of looking for her dad, hence the alert by the dog.

Anyway, the bedroom window well no one is going to lift that at night, first its right by the car park and in full view, and secondly the shutters would make a racket, and at the time of the alleged snatched there were many people about and would have heard it. 

For me the only way to take the child is walking through the front door with the excuse they were going to look for mum and dad, IF she was taken.

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by russiandoll on 13.03.14 8:30

columbostogeys :  
 
  " The thing is, as you say the window is at least 12 feet drop, and this is one the police think the child could have fallen out of looking for her dad, hence the alert by the dog. "

 Wasn't the alert inside the apartment close to that window, the theory of the police being that Maddie had climbed on that sofa to try and see her father after hearing his voice as he was talking outside, result being  that she fell down behind the sofa, landing on those tiles where the dog alerted to blood?  I have not read any theory that Maddie died outside other than as a result from a fall from the balcony wall down into the garden area or down those steps...not heard anything about a fall from that window.

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by kimHager on 13.03.14 18:13

Hi Judex :) please don't let this stop talking. I blunder a lot lol keep posting don't worry if it's a major thing admin will let u know

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by Jayneykul on 16.03.14 12:42

Petermac I know I'm being thick here but could you expand on your post above? I'm really intrigued by what you say that you think the photo could be the key to the whole mystery. Apologies if it is glaringly obvious

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by Newintown on 16.03.14 14:10

@Jayneykul wrote:Petermac I know I'm being thick here but could you expand on your post above? I'm really intrigued by what you say that you think the photo could be the key to the whole mystery. Apologies if it is glaringly obvious

Don't worry, you're not the only one who is completely baffled.  I've been wracking my brain as to what Petermac is referring to but I'm still at a loss.  He's an ex-police officer so it's probably more obvious to him then us ordinary plebs.   smilie

I haven't read KM's book so perhaps I'm at a disadvantage (didn't want to contribute to their "(Not) Finding Madeleine Fund").

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by ultimaThule on 16.03.14 14:28

As PeterMac said, the photo of the living room of 5A showing some of the McCanns' possessions, including their camera, was taken by the PJ at 2am after the McCanns and the twins had been removed from the premises and were dossing down for the night in the Paynes' apartment upstairs.  

That being the case, either the McCanns had more than one camera or the member of the Tapas 7 who'd taken their camera in order to spend the night making vast quantities of 'silly posters' had returned it to them within a short time of taking it. 

It seems to me that what we can be sure of is that the camera shown on the table contained no photos of anyone or anything which would be of interest to the police.

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by SixMillionQuid on 16.03.14 14:38

Didn't Gerry send the pictures from that camera on CD to the police along with his Powerpoint presentation?

I noticed the pad of paper and pen near the glass


Is missing here



EDIT canda12 already spotted this. I wonder if this is when the timeline was written.

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by PeterMac on 16.03.14 14:45

@ultimaThule wrote:
It seems to me that what we can be sure of is that the camera shown on the table contained no photos of anyone or anything which would be of interest to the police.
Except that the camera on the table is a Canon Powershot A 620.
The Last Photo was taken on a Canon Powershot A 620
The Canon was in Kate's possession on 10th
On 10th Gerry said in his statement
"Asked, he clarifies that, apart from the personal photos already delivered by him to the police
authorities after the disappearance of his daughter MADELEINE, he has no others in his
possession. He adds that it is his wife KATE who usually takes pictures, he does not recall
taking any pictures during this holiday, at night.
SNIPPED
Reads, confirms, ratifies and signs."

An Olympus C-50 was delivered to Hampshire, and all the other known photos seem to be from that one.
That camera was still there on 9th.
Food for thought ?

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by Newintown on 16.03.14 14:51

[quote="ultimaThule"]As PeterMac said, the photo of the living room of 5A showing some of the McCanns' possessions, including their camera, was taken by the PJ at 2am after the McCanns and the twins had been removed from the premises and were dossing down for the night in the Paynes' apartment upstairs.

Post erased, am confused about camera in situ, will rethink my post,  big grin 

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by Briohazard on 16.03.14 15:01

PeterMac wrote:Except that the camera on the table is a Canon Powershot A 620. wrote:The Last Photo was taken on a Canon Powershot A 620
The Canon was in Kate's possession on 10th
On 10th Gerry said in his statement
"Asked, he clarifies that, apart from the personal photos already delivered by him to the police
authorities after the disappearance of his daughter MADELEINE, he has no others in his
possession. He adds that it is his wife KATE who usually takes pictures, he does not recall
taking any pictures during this holiday, at night.
SNIPPED
Reads, confirms, ratifies and signs."

An Olympus C-50 was delivered to Hampshire, and all the other known photos seem to be from that one.
That camera was still there on 9th.
Food for thought ?

So. Either the authorities had possession of "the last photo"... Or "the last photo" wasn't on the camera SD they had in PdL before the 10th of May...

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Another clue

Post by PeterMac on 16.03.14 16:18

OK, here is another clue.

This it taken from Verdad de le Mentira.  If you haven't read it, it can be a strange experience, part documentation of facts and part thought processes.
It is also, frustratingly, not in strict chronological order, but takes themes and runs them through.

Anyway here is some. HEAVILY SNIPPED
Madeleine McCann: L'Enquête Interdite - The Forbidden Investigation - Chapter 11
ANALYSIS OF A CRIME SCENE. APARTMENT 5A

It's 10am. [on 8th or 9th, - see below]   After dealing with everyday matters, I join the team of investigators responsible for the Madeleine case. The Leicestershire police are present at these meetings, as well as José Freitas. . . . .
We take stock of the different operations set up, then we examine the photos taken on the night of May 3rd.
We then examine the photo of the lounge. . . .

At this stage of the investigation, we have already requested the holiday photos from all of them. On the dining table, we notice a digital camera and we decide that we must acquire its contents.

- We are really going to need the photos. That would allow us to see exactly what happened during dinner, how they were seated round the table, what they drank, what they ate, how they were dressed, everything is important.

Chapter 6
After Madeleine's disappearance, the first English police officer whom we welcome to the Portimão Department of Criminal Investigation, on May 5th,
Two days later, English colleagues begin to arrive.  [ ie 7th]


So the PJ did NOT have the Canon on 4th, and realised as late as 8th that they needed it.
And note that he says they have "requested" not that they have GOT.
The Olympus was sent to Hampshire (? ? ?) arriving on 8th and examined in detail on 9th, but Kate had the Canon with her on 10th going through the photos to look at times and dates ( too much information, yet again)
Did the PJ ever get hold of the Canon ?   Or did they have the Olympus plus Gerry's statement that he handed everything over, and assumed that was it.
We do not know, except to observe that the Last Photo is not included in any evidential bundle that any of us has ever found.  Nor indeed is it in the book
It is released to the French Press Agency - clearly by Mitchell - on 22nd or 23rd and to the world on 24th - along with all the bo*****s  about the time being wrong.

(Would it not be priceless if the thing that broke the case open was an act which could be traced back to Clarence Mitchell ?)

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by ultimaThule on 16.03.14 16:42

How delicious would that be, PeterMac!  I can feel myself salivating at the prospect of just desserts being served on a table of poetic justice to one who is truly worthy of such a repast.   yes

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by Guest on 16.03.14 16:55

Both Justice and Vengeance are being served cold, as the sayings go. So they could be starters, entremets or desserts. I also go for dessert  big grin 

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by Newintown on 16.03.14 17:12

@PeterMac wrote:OK, here is another clue.

This it taken from Verdad de le Mentira.  If you haven't read it, it can be a strange experience, part documentation of facts and part thought processes.
It is also, frustratingly, not in strict chronological order, but takes themes and runs them through.

Anyway here is some. HEAVILY SNIPPED
Madeleine McCann: L'Enquête Interdite - The Forbidden Investigation - Chapter 11
ANALYSIS OF A CRIME SCENE. APARTMENT 5A

It's 10am. [on 8th or 9th, - see below]   After dealing with everyday matters, I join the team of investigators responsible for the Madeleine case. The Leicestershire police are present at these meetings, as well as José Freitas. . . . .
We take stock of the different operations set up, then we examine the photos taken on the night of May 3rd.
We then examine the photo of the lounge. . . .

At this stage of the investigation, we have already requested the holiday photos from all of them. On the dining table, we notice a digital camera and we decide that we must acquire its contents.

- We are really going to need the photos. That would allow us to see exactly what happened during dinner, how they were seated round the table, what they drank, what they ate, how they were dressed, everything is important.

Chapter 6
After Madeleine's disappearance, the first English police officer whom we welcome to the Portimão Department of Criminal Investigation, on May 5th,
Two days later, English colleagues begin to arrive.  [ ie 7th]


So the PJ did NOT have the Canon on 4th, and realised as late as 8th that they needed it.
And note that he says they have "requested" not that they have GOT.
The Olympus was sent to Hampshire (? ? ?) arriving on 8th and examined in detail on 9th, but Kate had the Canon with her on 10th going through the photos to look at times and dates ( too much information, yet again)
Did the PJ ever get hold of the Canon ?   Or did they have the Olympus plus Gerry's statement that he handed everything over, and assumed that was it.
We do not know, except to observe that the Last Photo is not included in any evidential bundle that any of us has ever found.  Nor indeed is it in the book
It is released to the French Press Agency - clearly by Mitchell - on 22nd or 23rd and to the world on 24th - along with all the bo*****s  about the time being wrong.

(Would it not be priceless if the thing that broke the case open was an act which could be traced back to Clarence Mitchell ?)

Seeing that he's reaped hundreds of thousands of £s off the back of Madeleine and let her down for his own glorification I would say that his comeuppance would be well deserved.

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by Jayneykul on 16.03.14 18:57

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to reply Petermac now I see!

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by Mirage on 16.03.14 19:26

Yes, thank you for filling in the gaps, Petermac. Very interesting. All that palaver in Hampshire was far from satisfactory so I hope that this camera and its contents were retrieved before the invisibility cloak fell over it.

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by Garrincha on 16.03.14 19:50

Hello Peter Mac – I just wanted to say that I hope that (if I ever get to retire) I would like to think that I would use my time as usefully as your good self (P.S. I’m a Peter too)

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by canada12 on 16.03.14 20:58

So what I understand from this is:

1. When the PJ requested photographs, they were not given anything that was on Kate's Canon, although they were given other photos from another camera, and Gerry signed a statement that all the photos that existed had been given to them.\
2. The PJ realized at a later point that they needed the photos on the Canon, which Kate had in her possession all along, and requested them.
3. By this time, any photos that might have been helpful on the Canon could have been deleted. Or manipulated.
4. The "Last Photo" was released several weeks later, not to the police, but to the media, by Clarence Mitchell.

Is my understanding correct, PeterMac?

If so, then "The Last Photo" may or may not have resided on the Canon. It may or may not have been taken earlier in the holiday. It may have been taken on a sunny day. Or it may have been "created" to order after May 3/4, and there's no way to prove when / where it was created unless forensic photographers are able to take the photo apart and tell us what it ISN'T rather than what it IS.

Does that pretty much sum it up?

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Re: The bedroom window

Post by Guest on 16.03.14 21:03

Pity CM didn't manage to protect these unhappy people from themselves

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