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Red Flags

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Re: Red Flags

Post by Guest on 06.03.14 13:53

@kimHager wrote:See it bothers me that TM's whole demeanor we could probably all agree is a red flag, actions and feelings doesn't fit an abduction scenario. If they have nothing to hide then nothing needs to be hidden... Simple as that... If they would take the polygraph it would show up.. Whatever the truth is. I believe the lengths they have gone to to avoid answering questions and such is the biggest red flag. Why would they question the dogs? The dogs reputations aren't in question as animals don't lie....

Oh but they are notoriously unreliable.

If your child were abducted and you were shown a video of a police dog indicating that it can smell a corpse in the apartment where she was last seen, well, you'd find yourself relaxing wouldn't you? Wouldn't you?

 winkwink

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Re: Red Flags

Post by frost on 06.03.14 14:07

The problem with a polygraph now is that they have told so many lies that they probably actually believe certain elements of what they have said as this version will have imprinted in their minds . I do not think so far down the line that a polygraph would be reliable , also there are issues with polygraph results as it is and research both for and against their reliabilty . 

I think the only way that this will ever come to court is if one of the group actually cracks and reveals the real version of events as Gerry has said 'confusion is good ' and their is so much confusion surrounding this case that at the moment a good defence lawyer could probably get it thrown out of court  despite all the circumstantial evidence .

Everyone who was on that holiday needs to ask themselves whether they can live with the version of events that they have stated for the rest of their lives and if they have told lies , bended the truth ,  however you want to put it they need to think about Maddie and start to put this little girl first . 

Its not uncommen for 'friends' to try and protect other friends and this is often done out of really believing  at the time that someone is innocent but could they still look back at those events in portugal and still come to the same conclusion now  ?

If I was one of them and I now had any doubts whatsoever that what I thought had happened  at the time or any statements I had given at the time were now incorrect I would have to speak out I could not live the rest of my life living a lie .

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Re: Red Flags

Post by Woofer on 06.03.14 14:15

From Kate's diaryhttp://www.mccannfiles.com/id166.html THURSDAY, JULY 12: I hate the person who took my Madeleine—the same one who has caused all this trouble, who made us feel worthless and mistrustful and mainly who has frightened my beautiful Madeleine. I will never forgive that person/those people for this. Never. wrote:


I hope you don't mind Woofer but I've snipped the rest of your post because the paragraph from 12 July leapt out at me. There's just so much wrongness in that first sentence:

Why on earth would you feel worthless if your child was abducted? Angry - yes, but worthless? I cannot think of a single abduction scenario that would cause that emotion.

Hello Poe - I think it was actually Casey5 that provided the link which I then quoted.  Yes, I thought those were odd things to write - you`d surely feel guilt if your child had been abducted, not worthlessness.  I wonder if this is a childhood script - the ingrained script received from parents. Taking a quote from Personality Adaptations by Vann Joines & Ian Stewart - "In narcissistic personality disorders the child develops into believing it is either wonderful or defective therefore the child adapts by always attempting to be wonderful but underneath the grandiose false-self facade is a terrified child who is afraid of ceasing to exist if he is not special and unique."   In times of crisis the adult would revert to script.

Yes, she is pre-occupied with the beauty of Madeleine but this, again, would fit with the narcissistic personality disorder.  One of the clues to NPD is "pre-occupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty and ideal love".

I thought is was weird writing that she hates the person who has taken her `and caused all this trouble` - eh !!!

Apologies to Casey5. These huge long strings of quotes send me cross-eyed.

@ Woofer, my mother is a narcissist and that quote describes her to a T. She tries to project an image of perfection to the point that she will argue black is white rather than admit to being wrong. My role, in public, is to be the pretty, clever, perfect daughter making her the perfect mother but in private I used to be subjected to verbal assaults as I could do and say nothing right. Reading your quote the penny dropped - if this had happened to me as a child rather than Madeleine, my mother would adopt the image of the grieving martyr while emphasising my perfection purely to enhance her own image.

Poe - it made me shiver reading your post.  I do hope you have managed to find who you really are rather than the labels your mother put on you.

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Re: Red Flags

Post by Woofer on 06.03.14 14:35

@Research_Reader wrote:I assume the aforementioned software systems that Peter Mac has described currently work on noting factual inconsistencies. However, I wonder in the future (with the increasing power of computers) if there will be equivalent systems that monitor videos of those involved, analysing minute facial expressions, voice stress analysis, speech patterns and the like for signs of probable lying. Like a more sophisticated version of a lie detector test, but with the benefit that you wouldn't even need the 'co-operation' of the person, just audio/video of them, to run the analysis.

There is already one called The Silent Talker developed at Manchester University

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Talker_Lie_Detector

It was mentioned in a programme on dectecting liars recently shown on TV.

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Re: Red Flags

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 06.03.14 14:36

@frost wrote:The problem with a polygraph now is that they have told so many lies that they probably actually believe certain elements of what they have said as this version will have imprinted in their minds . I do not think so far down the line that a polygraph would be reliable , also there are issues with polygraph results as it is and research both for and against their reliabilty

I think the opposite of this.  Having lied for 7 years will ring bells in any polgraph test.  Heck, Kate doesn't even seem fully in control of the right side of her face now. There is a tendency here to think of the McCanns as 'evil genuises'. Neither of those two demonstrate any genius qualities.

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Re: Red Flags

Post by Guest on 06.03.14 14:53

@Woofer wrote:
From Kate's diaryhttp://www.mccannfiles.com/id166.html THURSDAY, JULY 12: I hate the person who took my Madeleine—the same one who has caused all this trouble, who made us feel worthless and mistrustful and mainly who has frightened my beautiful Madeleine. I will never forgive that person/those people for this. Never. wrote:


I hope you don't mind Woofer but I've snipped the rest of your post because the paragraph from 12 July leapt out at me. There's just so much wrongness in that first sentence:

Why on earth would you feel worthless if your child was abducted? Angry - yes, but worthless? I cannot think of a single abduction scenario that would cause that emotion.

Hello Poe - I think it was actually Casey5 that provided the link which I then quoted.  Yes, I thought those were odd things to write - you`d surely feel guilt if your child had been abducted, not worthlessness.  I wonder if this is a childhood script - the ingrained script received from parents. Taking a quote from Personality Adaptations by Vann Joines & Ian Stewart - "In narcissistic personality disorders the child develops into believing it is either wonderful or defective therefore the child adapts by always attempting to be wonderful but underneath the grandiose false-self facade is a terrified child who is afraid of ceasing to exist if he is not special and unique."   In times of crisis the adult would revert to script.

Yes, she is pre-occupied with the beauty of Madeleine but this, again, would fit with the narcissistic personality disorder.  One of the clues to NPD is "pre-occupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty and ideal love".

I thought is was weird writing that she hates the person who has taken her `and caused all this trouble` - eh !!!

Apologies to Casey5. These huge long strings of quotes send me cross-eyed.

@ Woofer, my mother is a narcissist and that quote describes her to a T. She tries to project an image of perfection to the point that she will argue black is white rather than admit to being wrong. My role, in public, is to be the pretty, clever, perfect daughter making her the perfect mother but in private I used to be subjected to verbal assaults as I could do and say nothing right. Reading your quote the penny dropped - if this had happened to me as a child rather than Madeleine, my mother would adopt the image of the grieving martyr while emphasising my perfection purely to enhance her own image.

Poe - it made me shiver reading your post.  I do hope you have managed to find who you really are rather than the labels your mother put on you.

It's difficult.

Becoming a mother really drove home to me how badly I had been treated. Now, despite living a few minutes walk away, I only see my mother at big family get togethers. From a distance, I can see her for the petty, jealous, frightened, spiteful child-woman that she is but at these get togethers I revert to a frightened child treading on eggshells and trying desperately to be invisible.

Funnily enough, she's brilliant with my son but, then again, she needs to be because I won't ever allow her to treat him the way she treated me.

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Re: Red Flags

Post by jeanmonroe on 06.03.14 15:17

@PeterMac wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
If the scenario the MCs insist on were true, and KM had a little insight the paragraph might have read like this:

"As the mother of a child who disappeared though my own neglect, my own actions, my own selfishness I am worthless.
I did not protect my daughter as was my duty and responsibility.
I hate the person who took Madeleine and I will never forgive them. But I will also never forgive myself for allowing this to happen to her.
I knew the danger I exposed my child to and I am now mistrustful of my decisions."

Neatly put.  And adding even more certainty to the belief that what the McCanns say happened is emphatically NOT the truth.
"I know IT happened under other circumstances "  in fact.

Rachael Oldfield:

"Anyone with an ounce of common sense really would be able to see that they couldn’t have done IT. I was there and I know that they didn’t do IT"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Small word 'IT' innit?

So what is the 'IT' the McCanns couldn't have done or didn't do, Rachael?
------------------------------------
Rachael Oldfield: I was there on the night. I spent time with Gerry and Kate during the week, you know, before the 3rd of May and afterwards
-------------------------------------------------
"I was THERE"  
"I was THERE (on the night, AFTER 'disappearance')

Although actually she is saying she spent time with the McCanns BEFORE the 3rd of May and AFTERWARDS of the 'disappearance'

Not actually spending time WITH the McCanns ON the 3rd May 2007 BEFORE 8:45pm.

Who knows what IT is they could have done before she met them at 8:45pm, 3rd May 2007?

She wouldn't KNOW, would she?

She was NOT with them!

But apparently she does!

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Re: Red Flags

Post by jeanmonroe on 06.03.14 16:03

RED FLAG

R O'B (first handwritten timeline)

8:45pm ALL assembled at poolside for food

R O'B (second handwritten timeline, SIGNED, GERALD)

8:45 Pool

So ALL assembled at poolside at 8:45pm?

That would include the Paynes then?

Strangely MO had to leave the poolside at 9:00pm to 'chivvy up' the Paynes who were not at the poolside!

And this

J TANNER

Around 21h00 her husband arrived at the restaurant, Ev, meanwhile, having fallen asleep.

As usual, the Paynes and mother, were late. A few minutes to 21h00 MO left the restaurant and went to the apartment area, saying that he would 'hurry up' the couple that was already late enough.

SO Rob were YOU even 'assembled' at poolside at 8:45pm?

Your own partner Jane says NOT!

So with my bad math i reckon that at least 4 of the T9 were NOT 'assembled' at poolside at 8:45pm

Whaddya say to that Rob?


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Re: Red Flags

Post by jeanmonroe on 06.03.14 16:14

RED FLAG

WHY is there LESS 'information' on the second R O'B handwritten timeline? (SIGNED by GERALD)

Surely there would be MORE 'information', as people 'remembered' MORE about what supposedly happened

EG. J Tanner's 'memory' improved' remarkedly AFTER the 'event' didn't it?.

Description of Man:
- Age 35 to 40.
- 1.7m tal1 approximately with a slim build.
- Good head of dark glossy hair, with possible flick of hair to the right. The hair was longer at the back (i.e not clippered or shaven).
- The central and the left side of the face were not seen.
- Full length trousers, casual, the material hanging without creases. The colour was possibly a browny mustard. They were not jeans.
- Long sleeved jacket, fastened at the front, possibly by a zipper. It had a gathered lower hem and was also possibly brownish in colour.
- Shoes may have been a semi-formal brogue.
- Whether he was wearing gloves or not could not be ascertained.
- He was not wearing a rucksack or any other identifiable objects.
- He was only carrying a child, with the head against the left upper chest away from JT and the feet to the right - i.e. cradling the child like a baby.
- He appeared to be walking in a rush to get somewhere.
- He was not someone JT recognised from the week.
- He was not dressed typically for a "tourist," or at least his clothing did not seem to be of UK origin and may well have been purchased in Portugal.
-----------------------------------

"Long sleeved jacket, fastened at the front, possibly by a zipper"

Strangely 'our' Jane did NOT see the front of the jacket but says it was fastened at the front, possibly by a zipper!

Not buttons then, Jane?

What EXACTLY does 'clothing' of UK origin look like?

"(clothing) may well have been purchased in Portugal."

NOT Italy or Spain or France then, Jane?

X-Ray, Eagle Eyed, Jane!

How many eggs does it take to 'over egg' a pudding?

ASK Jane, Sandra!

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Re: Red Flags

Post by ultimaThule on 06.03.14 16:26

For someone who only saw a sideview of this man who crossed the road walking in a rush while carrying a child across his body, JT must have extraordinarily acute eyesight to have seen that his 'long sleeved jacket' was 'fastened at the front, possibly by a zipper'.

Clothing of UK origin?  That'll be Primarni  big grin 

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Re: Red Flags

Post by Guest on 06.03.14 16:28

@jeanmonroe wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
If the scenario the MCs insist on were true, and KM had a little insight the paragraph might have read like this:

"As the mother of a child who disappeared though my own neglect, my own actions, my own selfishness I am worthless.
I did not protect my daughter as was my duty and responsibility.
I hate the person who took Madeleine and I will never forgive them. But I will also never forgive myself for allowing this to happen to her.
I knew the danger I exposed my child to and I am now mistrustful of my decisions."

Neatly put.  And adding even more certainty to the belief that what the McCanns say happened is emphatically NOT the truth.
"I know IT happened under other circumstances "  in fact.

Rachael Oldfield:

"Anyone with an ounce of common sense really would be able to see that they couldn’t have done IT. I was there and I know that they didn’t do IT"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Small word 'IT' innit?

So what is the 'IT' the McCanns couldn't have done or didn't do, Rachael?
------------------------------------
Rachael Oldfield: I was there on the night. I spent time with Gerry and Kate during the week, you know, before the 3rd of May and afterwards
-------------------------------------------------
"I was THERE"  
"I was THERE (on the night, AFTER 'disappearance')

Although actually she is saying she spent time with the McCanns BEFORE the 3rd of May and AFTERWARDS of the 'disappearance'

Not actually spending time WITH the McCanns ON the 3rd May 2007 BEFORE 8:45pm.

Who knows what IT is they could have done before she met them at 8:45pm, 3rd May 2007?

She wouldn't KNOW, would she?

She was NOT with them!

But apparently she does!

jeanmonroe, another person who was there at the time of MBM's disappearance was Philip Edmonds.  He said in a letter to TB that there was not one shred of doubt in his mind that the events as reported were correct; he saw all of the events first hand.

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Re: Red Flags

Post by jeanmonroe on 06.03.14 16:33

@ultimaThule wrote:For someone who only saw a sideview of this man who crossed the road walking in a rush while carrying a child across his body, JT must have extraordinarily acute eyesight to have seen that his 'long sleeved jacket' was 'fastened at the front, possibly by a zipper'.

Not to mention the "semi-formal brogue shoes"

Not FULL formal brogue shoes, you'll understand, but "SEMI-formal brogue shoes", if you please!

And don't ever forget she saw all THIS from FIFTY (50) METRES AWAY!

As Gerry and Kate McCann have TOLD us!

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Re: Red Flags

Post by PeterMac on 06.03.14 16:34

@jeanmonroe wrote:
Rachael Oldfield:
"Anyone with an ounce of common sense really would be able to see that they couldn’t have done IT. I was there and I know that they didn’t do IT"
Small word 'IT' innit?
So what is the 'IT' the McCanns couldn't have done or didn't do, Rachael?

An extremely important point.
We can only use IT when the person to whom we are speaking understands to what IT refers.
IT is being used as a convenient shorthand form.

So to what is she referring ?
Clearly not an abduction, because the idea of the parents abducting their own child is logically and semantically impossible (in this case)
So the IT must refer to something else, and by inference some other crime or illegal act.
And Rachael knows exactly what that IT really is. And has blundered by wording the sentence in this way.


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Re: Red Flags

Post by jeanmonroe on 06.03.14 16:40

Ladyinred wrote:

jeanmonroe, another person who was there at the time of MBM's disappearance was Philip Edmonds.  He said in a letter to TB that there was not one shred of doubt in his mind that the events as reported were correct; he saw all of the events first hand.
--------------------------------------------------------------

He SAW all of the events first hand?

Even the 'abduction'?

Wow, if SY/Met are reading this they'd better get around to Mr Edmonds and spin his drum and have a word with him!

Him being a key witness to ALL the 'events' first hand and all that!

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Re: Red Flags

Post by Guest on 06.03.14 16:44

@jeanmonroe wrote:Ladyinred wrote:

jeanmonroe, another person who was there at the time of MBM's disappearance was Philip Edmonds.  He said in a letter to TB that there was not one shred of doubt in his mind that the events as reported were correct; he saw all of the events first hand.
--------------------------------------------------------------

He SAW all of the events first hand?

Even the 'abduction'?

Wow, if SY/Met are reading this they'd better get around to Mr Edmonds drum and have a word with him!

Him being a key witness to ALL the 'events' first hand and all that!
http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3471-would-this-account-for-the-unprecedented-high-level-of-political-support?highlight=philip+edmonds

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Re: Red Flags

Post by Guest on 06.03.14 16:52

Ladyinred wrote:

jeanmonroe, another person who was there at the time of MBM's disappearance was Philip Edmonds.  He said in a letter to TB that there was not one shred of doubt in his mind that the events as reported were correct; he saw all of the events first hand.

That's probably what he was there for.

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Re: Red Flags

Post by jeanmonroe on 06.03.14 17:01

jeanmonroe, another person who was there at the time of MBM's disappearance was Philip Edmonds.  He said in a letter to TB that there was not one shred of doubt in his mind that the events as reported were correct; he saw all of the events first hand.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even the 'jemmied' window (TC) and SMASHED 'shutter'? (KM to Jon C)

Well, those 'details of events' were CORRECT then, as 'reported' according to Mr Edmonds!

Oh, hang on, NO they weren't!

Mr Edmonds must have been at a 'different abduction'!

Hmmmm.

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Re: Red Flags

Post by plebgate on 06.03.14 17:57

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:

jeanmonroe, another person who was there at the time of MBM's disappearance was Philip Edmonds.  He said in a letter to TB that there was not one shred of doubt in his mind that the events as reported were correct; he saw all of the events first hand.

That's probably what he was there for.
I think this has been said before but,  is he saying  he was in the apartment when Mrs. found Maddie gone?

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Re: Red Flags

Post by PeterMac on 06.03.14 18:49

@plebgate wrote:
I think this has been said before but,  is he saying  he was in the apartment when Mrs. found Maddie gone?
NO. He is a "ludicrous' fantasist, like many of the McCann support team.
Grange will have a long list of them.
Just as the McCans had a "loonies' basket for letters they did not want to address, or which had embarrassing facts or questions.

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Re: Red Flags

Post by Casey5 on 06.03.14 20:08

@Okeydokey wrote:Casey - I was replying to Millie, not querying your sources.
Oops, sorry Okeydokey. laughat
But at least it got me to check it out, memory's a funny thing when you get to my great age.

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Re: Red Flags

Post by petunia on 06.03.14 20:33

Red flag.....Kate Mccann we need people to believe it was an abduction.

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Re: Red Flags

Post by Hobs on 06.03.14 21:19

From Kate's diary

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id166.htm

THURSDAY, JULY 12: I hate the person who took my Madeleine—the same one who has caused all this trouble, who made us feel worthless and mistrustful and mainly who has frightened my beautiful Madeleine. I will never forgive that person/those people for this. 

Oh dear, she just can't help herself leak marbles can she?

Order is important

I hate the person who took my Madeleine—the same one who has caused all this trouble, who made us feel worthless and mistrustful

Here she tells us she hates the person (no gender specified despite the claims she was abducted by a man)
This is followed by the why she hates said person and here the order is important.

She hates the person because they made her and gerry feel worthless and mistrustful.


This is then followed by mainly:

Who has frightened Madeleine.

Surely the main reason you would hate someone in this situation is the frightened Madeleine, yet, here the main reason is the last reason.
Kate's personal main reasons, ie, those which she has placed first are worthless and mistrustful.


Yet again we see kate's priority is herself and how she is perceived by others rather than her missing daughter.


This is unexpected and concerning.


She blames the person for causing all this trouble.
This is close, that is distancing, she is close to all the trouble.
She doesn't tell us what this trouble is so we can't assume.


The trouble however is linked to them feeling worthless and mistrustful.


This would imply that their concern is not for Maddie's wellbeing or feelings but rather how the public perceives them which is as neglectful parents who put having a good time before their children.


Since the children were never left home alone in the first place (the absent adult each night) they had to claim neglect in order for there to be a window of opportunity for an abduction.


if there was no window of opportunity (the children were being babysat in one apartment) then there could not have been an abduction and if there was no abduction then the finger points right back at the parents in regard to harm befalling Maddie.


This was the lesser of two evils, neglect could be plea dealt down to a couple years or even probation, murder  is a whole different matter.


How can she claim mistrust when she and gerry happily dumped their remaining children in the creches every day or with sundry relatives as they gallivanted round the world.


If they were truly mistrustful, those twins would never have left their sight and no one even family would be trusted to look after them such would be the fear and worry of losing another one.


They would have become hypervigilant yet they weren't.

They remained as casual as before regarding the care of the twins, and, with all the relatives showing up, unlimited babysitters.



They had to be told to remove the twins from the creche due to the disruption being caused.


Sounds like they were anything but mistrustful.

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Re: Red Flags

Post by Woofer on 06.03.14 21:52

" the same one who has caused all this trouble " - I find that weird.  To say a person who has taken your child has just caused trouble !   It has surely placed one in hell, not just caused trouble.

The way they talk sometimes makes me think that someone took a dead Madeleine and mucked up their plans for her.  She wasn`t meant to be taken at that moment.

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Re: Red Flags

Post by Varriott on 06.03.14 21:54

@Hobs wrote:
She hates the person because they made her and gerry feel worthless and mistrustful.

Surely the main reason you would hate someone in this situation is the frightened Madeleine, yet, here the main reason is the last reason.
Kate's personal main reasons, ie, those which she has placed first are worthless and mistrustful.

Yet again we see kate's priority is herself and how she is perceived by others rather than her missing daughter.

This is unexpected and concerning.

Just when I thought I had seen it all, you managed to freak me out even more about how strange the parents' behaviour is.  It's every kind of wrong.

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Re: Red Flags

Post by petunia on 06.03.14 21:57

Hobs..what a time bomb those poor twins must be living in... with not one but two narcissistic parents

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