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In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by diatribe on Wed 5 Mar 2014 - 14:04

''I clocked that too,diatribe. It brought a certain cynical smile.''


Indeed, these are halcyon times for we cynics. big grin

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Guest on Wed 5 Mar 2014 - 14:31

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@Mirage wrote:
International politics are the high stakes here. Power-brokers. There are players who are expendable and players who must be protected. There is a discussion on another thread regarding those who may be thrown to the wolves. Getting certain ducks in a row perhaps.  I personally believe the barometer of public opinion can influence to a certain point, hence a move away from a waning witch hunt of celebrities to some with a little more meat on their bones.


Good post yet again Mirage.

There's one figure in particular who I'm very interested in. Please don't press me on who as I will not tell. However, once you know what you're looking for, well.... I'm also sure Clarence knows due to something that he once said.

If this figure was ever shown to be complicit it would be the biggest British political scandal of all time.
Do share Clay..... Sounds intriguing....

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Cristobell on Wed 5 Mar 2014 - 14:44

@Mirage wrote:Thank you for taking the time to respond, Cristobell.
Collaboration as in co-operation, of course. Perhaps the word has become unduly loaded since the Vichy government.

Whilst the key players may have moved on in terms of politicos, they are/were guardians of the nation's skeletons and there is a universal desire for a mess of someone else's making not to explode on the current scene: the rationale being that mud sticks, perhaps unfairly, to present incumbents. My comment re Portuguese supremacy remains as per my previous observations, in that "on paper" bears no relation to de facto as we have previously seen in this case. As you say, seven years have passed but  there is more evidence that the Portuguese Investigation is being disrupted rather than enhanced. Hence the PJ statement of complaint which I take on face value and not part of a game. I simply don't think an elaborate "good cop, bad cop" scenarion is being enacted - a difficult thing to pull off at the best of times between cops talking the same language. Both the language barrier and geographical distance mitigate against the psychological nuances and timing needed to wrong-foot this pair

The good cop, bad cop idea is an interesting theory, but logic would dictate that SY are concentrating on the UK end of the operation, whilst the Portuguese are concentrating on the locus in quo.  

I try to look at the bigger picture Mirage, and I don't believe skeletons can survive the Whitehall closets.  Only this week Harriet Harman and Patricia Hewitt have had rattling old bones back to haunt them.  Had they been Tory politicians would the Mail have featured the story so highly?  No doubt as we speak canny journalists are going through reams of files and microfiche to find out who else's name was on the PIE list, or who else had any affiliations to them, and asking themselves, do we want to destroy them?  Anyone being protected will be soon be named by those whose heads are currently on the chopping block.

A new administration cannot be held responsible for the errors of the old administration.  Those are the rules, its just not cricket, so I'm afraid I really don't see any mud sticking to those who (currently) have clean hands over the whole Madeleine affair.  Cameron can justify responding to public demand - a call for a review - but he cannot give immunity from justice to British citizens, its just not within his power.
 

To my mind the key players are the McCanns and the tapas group who cannot move on because they are mired in what they thought would be shelved and forgotten about. Maybe the politicos once opined the same and are floundering. This would explain the most bizarre policing op we have ever seen in this country

Agreed the McCanns and their friends are the key players and stuck in a time warp.  However, what the McCanns are demanding, no government, no Pope. nor even God himself can give them, and that is absolution, a Not Guilty Certificate for the Media and the film studios and the go ahead to demand money with menaces from every bastad that has ever criticised them.  

This brings me to your comment about the Labour party,and here I fundamentally depart from this being a party political issue. Look at the RB case with Blair and Cameron part of her scene for example. Whilst individuals may vie for personal power under the flag of a professed ideology, I am convinced the real power resides elsewhere; and the shots are called elsewhere. This is why party politics are moveable feasts back and forth across the centre ground to centre right or centre left, to keep the public mind focussed on this fiction.

LOL, they do seem to have all merged into one don't they. A bit reminiscent of George Orwell's pigs in suits drinking brandy with the farmers and the beasts and the humans becoming indistinguishable from each other.  Yes, all grey men, and sadly I fear a future where politicians will resemble puppet Ken and Barbie's, with moguls operating their strings.  That aside, winning elections remains very important to both parties, 'that all happened under the last government' - is  standard party political language (spot how many times it is said on BBCQT).  

Having said that I do think there is probably some sort of 'Gentleman's Code' in Whitehall, but nothing that would put individual careers at risk.  At the end of this £10m+ police operation, if Cameron insists that Kate and Gerry McCann are innocent in the face of Portuguese evidence that proves otherwise, he is going to look a little more than a silly sausage and it may take he and his Eton chums down.  These lads come from generations of wealth and power, they are the progeny of the most ruthless, the greediest, the most go getting and the most astute of their titled and privileged ancestors who went before them. They did not get to where they were by risking their livelihoods on peasants.  


International politics are the high stakes here. Power-brokers. There are players who are expendable and players who must be protected. There is a discussion on another thread regarding those who may be thrown to the wolves. Getting certain ducks in a row perhaps.  I personally believe the barometer of public opinion can influence to a certain point, hence a move away from a waning witch hunt of celebrities to some with a little more meat on their bones.

International politics?  Other police agencies are not involved Mirage, it is only the UK and Portugal, unless they are pursuing Metodo 3 and Halligen.  Whilst mentioning M3 and Halligen, if international agencies and high stakes were involved, why were the McCanns be permitted to hire such obvious crooks?  Indeed, if it were an international game of high stakes, why were the McCanns permitted to saturate the media with hundreds of nonsense stories?  A whitewash would demand that the McCanns co-operate, it can't work if they don't.  Their reckless behaviour would scare the bejesus out of anyone working their socks off to cover their tracks.  The McCanns have left fecking great fingerprints all over the World Wide Web, and in writing courtesy of Kate's book and Gerry's blogs - both loaded with incriminating evidence!


Insofar as Amanda Knox is concerned, I agree she cannot be tried by the USA and a verdict reached that trumps the Italian one. I will watch with interest to see if the USA blocks extradition. I think they would like to, but expediency will dictate as they have no wish to hamper extraditions the other way. It they protect her from extradition she will retain a circumscribed freedom, rather like the McCanns. As I say,it all comes down to international power brokerage in the end.


Amanda has had rather a thorough makeover - fortunately for the McCanns they have been evangelical from the start, bless 'em.

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maddie justice

Post by gcampbell on Wed 5 Mar 2014 - 16:13

Andrew77R wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@Mirage wrote:
International politics are the high stakes here. Power-brokers. There are players who are expendable and players who must be protected. There is a discussion on another thread regarding those who may be thrown to the wolves. Getting certain ducks in a row perhaps.  I personally believe the barometer of public opinion can influence to a certain point, hence a move away from a waning witch hunt of celebrities to some with a little more meat on their bones.


Good post yet again Mirage.

There's one figure in particular who I'm very interested in. Please don't press me on who as I will not tell. However, once you know what you're looking for, well.... I'm also sure Clarence knows due to something that he once said.

If this figure was ever shown to be complicit it would be the biggest British political scandal of all time.
Do share Clay..... Sounds intriguing....
you really must be a simpleton.please shut up and let some great minds sort this mystery out .you are nothing but a distraction to the cause.

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Guest on Wed 5 Mar 2014 - 16:37

Where's the emoticon for *sigh* ... ?

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by justathought on Wed 5 Mar 2014 - 19:13

Firstly, thank you for those whom replied to my OP.
For the record was not trying to be controversial in asking the question. Felt it was a valid question and in many ways am now far more positive that eventually justice will be served. Whom knows what the future holds? The twins are growing older by the day, and there seems to be a slow change in the "ground swell" of public opinion. Witnessed where comments regarding Madeleine articles are not stifled by the media.
Other positives being that there are still those whom are willing to stand up for what they believe in. Even, as appears to be the case, that from every angle, their views are trying to be suppressed. So it would appear that aside from trying to get justice for Madeline, there are many other issues at stake with this case. Including those of press censorship, persecution of individuals, inequality as to the level of police investigations, misuse of donations etc.

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by ultimaThule on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 0:28

@Cristobell wrote:
@Mirage wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:
@Mirage wrote:The points you make are valid Cristobell, in respect of tolerating a foreign police task force on British soil. It just wouldn't happen would it? So why has it happened in reverse? Collaboration is the face-saver in my view.

As much as the British establishment feign abhorrence at the old Empire days and ways, when the chips are down they will not hesitate to pull rank over any country they think their political inferior. One only has to think of the ambassadorial blizzard and political interference GA suffered - police turning up wearing FM wristbands, an office given over to UK police in Portimao and data denied. A take-over really.  And that was at the very start of the Portuguese investigation! What was the message to the PJ back then? We're the big boys with all the experience so move over..

The EU hierarchical structure - in which Britain claims tacit superiority - feeds this country's overweaning sense of entitlement and inflated sense of global importance. Look at Hague arriving in Savile Row suit in Kiev for evidence of similar hubris.

A graphic assertion of superiority by British police came in the form of glossy photographs recently; a photo shoot to remind any members of the awkward squad in the backwaters of Faro who the big boys were. And what a cock of the walk preening it was. No wonder the PJ have released their criticisms of the MET. The message is clear, they've had enough.


I'm not quite sure what you mean by collaboration Mirage?  

I've no doubt that the political interference in 2007 stymied the case and led to loss of evidence.  What happened to the clothes worn by Maddie on the Thursday she disappeared, the band that she wore in her hair, her toothbrush, the pink blanket etc, etc. The police were specifically told to be nice to the parents, don't put pressure on them (see People who flew out to Portugal thread) and by Saturday Kate was able to wash all the forensics away by doing the family wash. (WTF?).  The word was 'don't treat the parents as suspects'.  Somehow among all those calls bouncing out of Apartment 5A that night, they reached someone who knew someone who could put pressure on the right people.  

It does indeed look as though we are seeing the old Imperial Great British Empire in action Mirage, but I don't think they will be able to pull it off.  Portugal has primacy. No matter how Great, Britain might be, it can no more declare the McCanns innocent, than the USA can overrule Italy and declare Amanda Knox innocent.

If DCI Redwood and the officers stationed in the Algarve find a burglar/tractorman/swarthyperson to charge with the crime, they will have to present their evidence to the Portuguese AG, and it must be strong enough to enable a criminal trial to go ahead, in the same way that if the case were in the UK, they would have to present their evidence to the CPS.

So what exactly can this British task force achieve?  
I'm not sure why you query my use of the word collaboration, Christobell. What did you think I meant?

No offence intended Mirage, I just wondered who is collaborating with who? (or is it whom?) :)  

Portugal has primacy on paper but what does that mean in reality? If the UK police have stymied, as you say, a foreign investigation at its inception (the golden hour almost) what does that suggest about possible future conduct?

I'm not sure it says anything Mirage. Almost 7 years have passed, and most of the key players have moved on.  The direct Government assistance came from a Labour government, not the government we have now.


I sincerely hope you are right and that the Portuguese do not fall victim once again to the bully tactics that saw GA removed from the investigation. It depends who has got what on whom it seems,nationally and internationally. And seeds sewn along the way can spring up in due season to claim the day - such as Mrs Healey's early accusation that DNA had been planted to incriminate.





Again, I urge you (and anyone interested in political machinations) to watch The Thick of It.  Secrets do not remain secrets for very long in the corridors of Whitehall and most politicians carry flick knives in their pockets to stick into the backs of friends and foes alike.  Memoirs are written and beans are spilled on a regular basis.  Everyone likes to leave a legacy, politicians more than most, and unless the McCann case falls within the Official Secrets Act (unlikely given all the publicity surrounding it) 'my part in Missing Madeleine' will turn up somewhere, and as we near the 7 year anniversary, it will be sooner rather than later.

As for Portugal having primacy, only on paper, I would strongly disagree there (in the nicest possible way). If we compare the case again to that of Amanda Knox, it would be like the USA overruling the verdict of the Italian Court.  The British can't try a crime that has been committed in Portugal, anymore than Amanda Knox could have been tried in the USA for the murder she committed in Italy.

I respect your opinion Mirage and read and digest your posts carefully, with quite a few nods and well saids.  I am trying to convince myself that there is no whitewash, as much as I am trying to convince you :)
Could you please explain why, if crimes against Madeleine McCann are suspected of being committed by British nationals, 'the British can't try a crime that has been committed in Portugal', Cristobell,  and also why Amanda Knox could not 'have been tried in the USA for the murder she committed in Italy'?

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by ultimaThule on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 2:02

@PeterMac wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:Why, this is hell, nor am I out of it.
Think'st thou that I, who saw the face of God
And tasted the eternal joys of heaven,
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells
In being deprived of everlasting bliss?”


To my mind both Gerald Patrck McCann has many traits in common with Lucifer and, in particular, that 'aspring pride and insolence for which God threw him from the face of Heaven'.

And Mitchell as Mephistopheles, and the Tapas group as other fallen angels,
Unhappy spirits that fell with Lucifer,
Conspired against our God with Lucifer,    
And are forever damned with Lucifer.


And I believe they will be forever damned. All of them
Until one by one they admit what they did and ask forgiveness

(And how can we ignore the line
"Be a physician, Faustus, Heap up wealth "   ! ! !)
A Faustian pact indeed, PeterMac.   

I see so much irony in this case, but it is not a work befitting the pen of Marlowe so much as a tale of greed and deception which oozes forth from the squalid underbelly of society. 

IMO redemption in this life is entirely beyond such as the McCanns and those who have conspired with them.  May their god forgive them as I cannot find it in me to forgive those who commit crimes against children.

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by tigger on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 6:22

I think The thick of it  simply glorifies spin - it did little else.
Dreadful series imo. The pseudo 'fly on the wall'  filming, the parody of Alistair Campbell was played by a very good actor but the script was dire.  As for plots I've seen better ones in the Magic Roundabout.
The series stands as an example of the self glorification  and ambitions of minor politicians, but said nothing new.

it is not funny or even revealing. Yes minister is a much better example of how power works.
Bremner is a far more astute observer of the corridors of power than the writers of The thick of it. Not funnier, because that implies that it  contains some degree of original humour.

Faustus is a brilliant analogy imo as long as you take away conscience and accountability  winkwink

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Guest on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 9:33

@gcampbell wrote:
you really must be a simpleton.please shut up and let some great minds sort this mystery out .you are nothing but a distraction to the cause.

Hmmm. Touchy, much?

Anyway, can you do "Wichita Lineman"? It's my favourite.....

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Cristobell on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 10:11

@tigger wrote:I think The thick of it  simply glorifies spin - it did little else.
Dreadful series imo. The pseudo 'fly on the wall'  filming, the parody of Alistair Campbell was played by a very good actor but the script was dire.  As for plots I've seen better ones in the Magic Roundabout.
The series stands as an example of the self glorification  and ambitions of minor politicians, but said nothing new.

it is not funny or even revealing. Yes minister is a much better example of how power works.
Bremner is a far more astute observer of the corridors of power than the writers of The thick of it. Not funnier, because that implies that it  contains some degree of original humour.

Faustus is a brilliant  analogy imo as long as you take away conscience and accountability  winkwink



Sorry can't let you get away with dissing The Thick of It!

I'm actually not even sure you have seen it, it isn't about self glorification and ambitions of minor politicians, its set in the offices of a Cabinet Minister. As for original humour, it has received dozens of awards and accolades and the spin off film In the Loop was nominated for an Oscar for best original screenplay, the rubbish plot for that being the sexing up of a student's dissertation in order to start a war - which of course couldn't possibly happen in real life, could it?




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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 10:14

@Cristobell wrote:
Sorry can't let you get away with dissing The Thick of It!

I'm actually not even sure you have seen it, it isn't about self glorification and ambitions of minor politicians, its set in the offices of a Cabinet Minister.  As for original humour, it has received dozens of awards and accolades and the spin off film In the Loop was nominated for an Oscar for best original screenplay, the rubbish plot for that being the sexing up of a student's dissertation in order to start a war - which of course couldn't possibly happen in real life, could it?

I've not seen it but I certainly shall now, if only so that I can have a listen to our new Doctor Who's potty mouth ;-)

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Cristobell on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 10:34

@ultimaThule wrote:[
Could you please explain why, if crimes against Madeleine McCann are suspected of being committed by British nationals, 'the British can't try a crime that has been committed in Portugal', Cristobell,  and also why Amanda Knox could not 'have been tried in the USA for the murder she committed in Italy'?


Goodness, where do I begin.  All countries have borders Ultima and the responsibility to govern and protect all the people within those borders lies with their individual governments.  Each country is responsible for its own law and order, Portugal has no jurisdiction in the UK and the UK has no jurisdiction in Portugal.  One country cannot overrule another country's laws, just because they are bigger or richer or both.  

The idea that a criminal trial relating to the disappearance of Madeleine could be held in the UK is ridiculous imo - are you suggesting the UK will host a trial and fly over all the witnesses from Portugal to testify?  All the staff from Warners, the Tapas Bar and the police who were first to attend the scene?

To be fair, I think its you who needs to convince me a trial in the UK is possible, because even with the wildest stretch of the imagination, I just don't see it.

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Cristobell on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 10:53

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:
Sorry can't let you get away with dissing The Thick of It!

I'm actually not even sure you have seen it, it isn't about self glorification and ambitions of minor politicians, its set in the offices of a Cabinet Minister.  As for original humour, it has received dozens of awards and accolades and the spin off film In the Loop was nominated for an Oscar for best original screenplay, the rubbish plot for that being the sexing up of a student's dissertation in order to start a war - which of course couldn't possibly happen in real life, could it?

I've not seen it but I certainly shall now, if only so that I can have a listen to our new Doctor Who's potty mouth ;-)

Its hilarious WLBTS, I recently re-watched the series on Netflix, and according to a friend of my son's who works in Whitehall, scarily close to what really goes on!

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by ultimaThule on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 11:21

@Cristobell wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:[
Could you please explain why, if crimes against Madeleine McCann are suspected of being committed by British nationals, 'the British can't try a crime that has been committed in Portugal', Cristobell,  and also why Amanda Knox could not 'have been tried in the USA for the murder she committed in Italy'?


Goodness, where do I begin.  All countries have borders Ultima and the responsibility to govern and protect all the people within those borders lies with their individual governments.  Each country is responsible for its own law and order, Portugal has no jurisdiction in the UK and the UK has no jurisdiction in Portugal.  One country cannot overrule another country's laws, just because they are bigger or richer or both.  

The idea that a criminal trial relating to the disappearance of Madeleine could be held in the UK is ridiculous imo - are you suggesting the UK will host a trial and fly over all the witnesses from Portugal to testify?  All the staff from Warners, the Tapas Bar and the police who were first to attend the scene?




To be fair, I think its you who needs to convince me a trial in the UK is possible, because even with the wildest stretch of the imagination, I just don't see it.
are you suggesting the UK will host a trial and fly over all the witnesses from Portugal to testify?

Yes I am, Cristobell, and, having quoted the relevant statute and cited case law, I would appreciate it if you would kindly explain why it is beyond your wildest stretch of the imagination when the remit of Operation Grange, together with the activities of the CPS and other signs which will not have escaped the attention of those who are accustomed to seeing the bigger picture, give every indication that, should they be British nationals, those suspected of committing heinous crimes against Madeleine McCann will be brought to justice in the UK.

In addition, can you please provide explanation as to why Amanda Knox was not tried in the USA for a murder she committed in Italy?

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by AndyB on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 11:24

@Cristobell wrote:All countries have borders Ultima and the responsibility to govern and protect all the people within those borders lies with their individual governments.  Each country is responsible for its own law and order, Portugal has no jurisdiction in the UK and the UK has no jurisdiction in Portugal.  One country cannot overrule another country's laws, just because they are bigger or richer or both.  

The idea that a criminal trial relating to the disappearance of Madeleine could be held in the UK is ridiculous imo - are you suggesting the UK will host a trial and fly over all the witnesses from Portugal to testify?  All the staff from Warners, the Tapas Bar and the police who were first to attend the scene?

The facility for the UK to prosecute certain offences committed abroad does exist and its possible that the decision to upgrade grange to a full investigation was because evidence of one of them was discovered. Abduction is not one of the offences, but both paedophilia and manslaughter are.

This is from the CPS website (https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/jurisdiction/)

Generally, an offence will only be triable in the jurisdiction in which the offence takes place, unless there is a specific provision to ground jurisdiction, for instance where specific statutes enable the UK to exercise extra-territorial jurisdiction:

  •  sexual offences against children (section 72 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003) A new section 72 was substituted by the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 which came into effect from 14 July 2008 onwards. It is important to ensure that any prosecution is brought under the provision in force at the time the alleged conduct occured as the terms of the substantive provisions and details of the offences they cover are not identical;
  •  murder and manslaughter (subsection 9 and 10 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861)
  •  fraud (the 2006 Act imposes extra territorial jurisdiction in respect od offences in subsection. 1, 6, 7, 9 and 11 of the Fraud Act 2006) and dishonesty (Criminal Justice Act 1993 Part 1 still applies to the remaining unrepealed sections of the Theft Act 1968);
  •  terrorism (subsection 59, 62-63 of the Terrorism Act 2000 and section 17 of the Terrorism Act 2006);
  •  bribery (The Bribery Act 2010 repeals the common law and the statutory offences of corruption for offences committed wholly on or after 1 July 2011. For those offences the Bribery Act imposes extra-territorial jurisdiction. Section 109 of the Anti-Terrorism and Security Act 2001 still applies to provide extre-territorial jurisdiction in respect of offences committed wholly or partially before 1 July 2011.

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by AndyB on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 11:29

@ultimaThule wrote:Yes I am, Cristobell, and, having quoted the relevant statute and cited case law, I would appreciate it if you would kindly explain why it is beyond your wildest stretch of the imagination when the remit of Operation Grange, together with the activities of the CPS and other signs which will not have escaped the attention of those who are accustomed to seeing the bigger picture, give every indication that, should they be British nationals, those suspected of committing heinous crimes against Madeleine McCann will be brought to justice in the UK.
I agree its possible that there could be a trial in the UK (and this possibility is my only hope that the institutionally racist and endemically corrupt Met might be doing the right thing), but try as I might I can't see any evidence that indicates a UK trial is where we are heading

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Guest on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 11:44

Hypothetically, the perpetrators of possible crimes in this case would be put in a catch 22*, if there would be a wrongful murderdeath prosecution in Portugal, parallel to prosecution for a heap of vile let's say irregularities in England.
 
I mean what do you choose? Decades in jail for murder, or decades in jail for everything around it that implicates you're a murderer, I fantasise.
 
* DCI Woodsaw: "I want to play a game."

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Cristobell on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 11:46

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:[
Could you please explain why, if crimes against Madeleine McCann are suspected of being committed by British nationals, 'the British can't try a crime that has been committed in Portugal', Cristobell,  and also why Amanda Knox could not 'have been tried in the USA for the murder she committed in Italy'?


Goodness, where do I begin.  All countries have borders Ultima and the responsibility to govern and protect all the people within those borders lies with their individual governments.  Each country is responsible for its own law and order, Portugal has no jurisdiction in the UK and the UK has no jurisdiction in Portugal.  One country cannot overrule another country's laws, just because they are bigger or richer or both.  

The idea that a criminal trial relating to the disappearance of Madeleine could be held in the UK is ridiculous imo - are you suggesting the UK will host a trial and fly over all the witnesses from Portugal to testify?  All the staff from Warners, the Tapas Bar and the police who were first to attend the scene?




To be fair, I think its you who needs to convince me a trial in the UK is possible, because even with the wildest stretch of the imagination, I just don't see it.
are you suggesting the UK will host a trial and fly over all the witnesses from Portugal to testify?

Yes I am, Cristobell, and, having quoted the relevant statute and cited case law, I would appreciate it if you would kindly explain why it is beyond your wildest stretch of the imagination when the remit of Operation Grange, together with the activities of the CPS and other signs which will not have escaped the attention of those who are accustomed to seeing the bigger picture, give every indication that, should they be British nationals, those suspected of committing heinous crimes against Madeleine McCann will be brought to justice in the UK.

Perhaps you could just cite one case where a British national has been tried for a crime committed in another country, I can't think of any.

The crime was committed in Portugal and investigated by the Portuguese, and indeed, things have moved on so far, that the Portuguese investigation has been re-opened. Are you suggesting that SY can 'nick' the entire case from them and relocate it to a British court? Seriously? This case is highly political and I don't think the Portuguese are the pussycats you seem to think they are. Portugal is not a third world country, and the British no longer have an empire.




In addition, can you please provide explanation as to why Amanda Knox was not tried in the USA for a murder she committed in Italy?


Err, the murder was committed in Italy! It needs no more explanation than that. Perhaps you could provide an explanation as to why the crime should have been tried in the USA?

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Cristobell on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 12:06

@AndyB wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:All countries have borders Ultima and the responsibility to govern and protect all the people within those borders lies with their individual governments.  Each country is responsible for its own law and order, Portugal has no jurisdiction in the UK and the UK has no jurisdiction in Portugal.  One country cannot overrule another country's laws, just because they are bigger or richer or both.  

The idea that a criminal trial relating to the disappearance of Madeleine could be held in the UK is ridiculous imo - are you suggesting the UK will host a trial and fly over all the witnesses from Portugal to testify?  All the staff from Warners, the Tapas Bar and the police who were first to attend the scene?

The facility for the UK to prosecute certain offences committed abroad does exist and its possible that the decision to upgrade grange to a full investigation was because evidence of one of them was discovered. Abduction is not one of the offences, but both paedophilia and manslaughter are.

This is from the CPS website (https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/jurisdiction/)

Generally, an offence will only be triable in the jurisdiction in which the offence takes place, unless there is a specific provision to ground jurisdiction, for instance where specific statutes enable the UK to exercise extra-territorial jurisdiction:

  •  sexual offences against children (section 72 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003) A new section 72 was substituted by the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 which came into effect from 14 July 2008 onwards. It is important to ensure that any prosecution is brought under the provision in force at the time the alleged conduct occured as the terms of the substantive provisions and details of the offences they cover are not identical;
  •  murder and manslaughter (subsection 9 and 10 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861)
  •  fraud (the 2006 Act imposes extra territorial jurisdiction in respect od offences in subsection. 1, 6, 7, 9 and 11 of the Fraud Act 2006) and dishonesty (Criminal Justice Act 1993 Part 1 still applies to the remaining unrepealed sections of the Theft Act 1968);
  •  terrorism (subsection 59, 62-63 of the Terrorism Act 2000 and section 17 of the Terrorism Act 2006);
  •  bribery (The Bribery Act 2010 repeals the common law and the statutory offences of corruption for offences committed wholly on or after 1 July 2011. For those offences the Bribery Act imposes extra-territorial jurisdiction. Section 109 of the Anti-Terrorism and Security Act 2001 still applies to provide extre-territorial jurisdiction in respect of offences committed wholly or partially before 1 July 2011.


All of this might apply if the Portuguese had left the case on the shelf, but in re-opening the investigation they will be looking towards a trial of their own.

I agree the involvement of the CPS must relate to British Nationals, but I would lean towards the fraud element of the excerpt you have put above. Otherwise we will see a ridiculous situation where there will be two trials for the same crime in different countries - and btw, the British one won't count in the eyes of the world.








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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 12:37

@Cristobell wrote:
Err, the murder was committed in Italy!  It needs no more explanation than that.  Perhaps you could provide an explanation as to why the crime should have been tried in the USA?

Or the UK for that matter, seeing as the victim was British.

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by sallypelt on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 12:50

Hansard source (Citation: HL Deb, 23 April 2013, c1351)


Lord Elystan-Morgan (Crossbench)
My Lords, is it not the case that the murder of a citizen of the United Kingdom is triable in the United Kingdom wherever that murder occurs? What efforts are made in such cases to bring the perpetrators of such offences before British courts?

Baroness Warsi (Conservative)
The view of the Government and indeed of successive Governments has been that a crime has to be tried in accordance with the law of the land in which that crime was committed. It would be just as unusual for countries to make a request to us to have their nationals who commit murder in this country to be tried back in their home country. Therefore, it is right that nationals are tried in the country in which they are caught

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Cristobell on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 13:04

@sallypelt wrote:Hansard source (Citation: HL Deb, 23 April 2013, c1351)


Lord Elystan-Morgan (Crossbench)
My Lords, is it not the case that the murder of a citizen of the United Kingdom is triable in the United Kingdom wherever that murder occurs? What efforts are made in such cases to bring the perpetrators of such offences before British courts?

Baroness Warsi (Conservative)
The view of the Government and indeed of successive Governments has been that a crime has to be tried in accordance with the law of the land in which that crime was committed. It would be just as unusual for countries to make a request to us to have their nationals who commit murder in this country to be tried back in their home country. Therefore, it is right that nationals are tried in the country in which they are caught


Unfortunate choice of words there from Baroness Warsi, especially the country in which they are caught - it would have been clearer if she had repeated herself and said the land in which the crime was committed.


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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by AndyB on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 13:25

Perhaps you could just cite one case where a British national has been tried for a crime committed in another country, I can't think of any.
There aren't many I grant you but this a recent high profile example http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/06/royal-marine-blackman-10-years-jail-taliban-murder

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by diatribe on Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 14:14

@AndyB wrote:
Perhaps you could just cite one case where a British national has been tried for a crime committed in another country, I can't think of any.
There aren't many I grant you but this a recent high profile example http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/06/royal-marine-blackman-10-years-jail-taliban-murder


I'm not certain here, Andy, but wouldn't this constitute some kind of war crime. As we know, war crimes can be dealt with outside of the territory where they occurred, usually in the Hague which can reside anywhere. The americans have held some of their military personnel accountable in the US, whereas they would not normally be able to do so in the case of civilian crimes committed outside of their jurisdiction.

I don't think in any event that the case you have cited could in any way be compared to that of the McCanns. Its apples and oranges.

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