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I want to believe - I really do ! !

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by Okeydokey on 23.02.14 2:23

Sorry to complicate things Mac, but if you truly want to believe, you will also have to work out how to believe that Matt Oldfield could see (on his 9.30pm visit)  the rise and fall of the twins' chests through the mesh sides of the cots in semi-darkness at a distance of some seven feet...assuming of course that Matt is telling the truth.  You may also wish to ponder how - having ascertained in such detail that the twins were indeed alive and breathing - that he couldn't give a toss to check on Madeleine.

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by ultimaThule on 23.02.14 2:38

It seems Saturday 5th May was just another day for the McCanns, Mirage.  With the twins in the creche, they were free to play tennis, loll around the pool, go for a run or stroll down to the beach, and the holiday lifestyle carried on much as it had the previous week - the only alteration being they had no need to encumber themselves with wallets or purses as MW was picking up the tab. 

Drinks on the house? That'll be trebles all round and I suspect their purpose in going to the Tapas Bar, where they'd so recently sat while their daughter was being abducted from her bed by a paedophile, was to take full advantage of their now extended holiday which had been upgraded from half board to all inclusive. 

If it wasn't for the fact that Bridget was booked to return to Faro on the bus driven by the OC driver whose mobile phone records indicate he made a couple of calls on the night of 3rd May, she may have written a piece which encompassed the grief of K&G's numerous friends and relatives who flocked to console them in their hour of greed need courtesy of MW's generousity  sarcastic 

As for Kate's living statue impression of the 'silent scream', we've all seen that image and many of us have observed how quickly the look of tormented anguish can change to one of carefree delight.  As for Gerry, the wee one's thin lips naturally compress themselves into a line of contemptuous disdain, albeit of late he appears to be developing a trout pout.  Maybe the top up intended for his unfurrowed forehead was injected into the wrong area while his manicurist was plucking his monobrow?  big grin

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by PeterMac on 23.02.14 9:26

The first wave of panic hit me. As I ran back into the children's room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear. Dear God, no! Please no!
One thing is sure: Kate or her ghost writer ain't no physicist with an understanding of gas pressure.

And her ghost writer did not know that she and Gerry had previously stated that the curtains were wide open.
The closed and whooshing was a much later invention
The ghost writer also did not realise that the full Meteorological reports would be in the public domain, proving that there was no wind that night and certainly not two sudden gusts,
nor that local ex-pat residents would keep such accurate contemporaneous diaries about the weather conditions, proving exacly the same from a different perspective
nor that photos on Flickr would give confirmation that the weather pattern was largely as the Tapas group reported. Cold cloudy and raining.
Which also proves beyond a reasonable whatsit that the Last Photo was NOT taken on Thursday, but more probably at lunchtime on Sunday.
Which in turn raises the question about why they made such a fuss over its having been the Thursday
and it all begins to fall into place.[/quote]

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by plebgate on 23.02.14 10:19

@PeterMac wrote:
The first wave of panic hit me. As I ran back into the children's room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear. Dear God, no! Please no!
One thing is sure: Kate or her ghost writer ain't no physicist with an understanding of gas pressure.

And her ghost writer did not know that she and Gerry had previously stated that the curtains were wide open.
The closed and whooshing was a much later invention
The ghost writer also did not realise that the full Meteorological reports would be in the public domain, proving that there was no wind that night and certainly not two sudden gusts,
nor that local ex-pat residents would keep such accurate contemporaneous diaries about the weather conditions, proving exacly the same from a different perspective
nor that photos on Flickr would give confirmation that the weather pattern was largely as the Tapas group reported.  Cold cloudy and raining.
Which also proves beyond a reasonable whatsit that the Last Photo was NOT taken on Thursday, but more probably at lunchtime on Sunday.
Which in turn raises the question about why they made such a fuss over its having been the Thursday
and it all begins to fall into place.
[/quote]
Oh deary, deary me.   Does the ghost writer normally work in Hollywood, sounds like the beginning of a film script to me?

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by PeterMac on 23.02.14 11:39

@plebgate wrote:
Oh deary, deary me.   Does the ghost writer normally work in Hollywood, sounds like the beginning of a film script to me?
May have submitted scripts and screenplays before, only to have them rejected as "ludicrous".
Even films have to have some type of internal cohesion.

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by Monty Heck on 23.02.14 14:12

@j.rob wrote:You also have to wrap your brain around how quickly the McCanns and their friends can do a 360 degree turn in terms of the apparent safety of leaving the children without a babysitter and instead doing their own baby-listening.

"As the restaurant was so near, we collectively decided to do our own child-checking service. .....Speaking for myself, I can say, hand on heart,  that it never once crossed my mind that this might not be a safe option. If I'd had any doubts whatsoever, I would simply never have entertained it. ......I would never knowingly place them at risk, no matter how small a risk it might seem to be." ((p53-54).

This was the apparent mind-set of the Mccanns when they supposedly tucked up their children in bed on the evening of Thursday 3 May 2007. That was exactly how happy and safe Kate felt with their own baby-listening arrangements. They would have felt like this at 8.30pm when the left the children sleeping alone. Gerry would have felt like this at 9.05pm when he, allegedly, saw all three children sleeping peacefully.

They would both have felt like this when they were quite happy for someone else who they did not know very well - Matt - to allegedly check that that there was no crying coming from the McCann children's bed room. They wouldn't have been worried whether he looked in the room or not, because they were so confident that their child-listening system was without risk - however small. And as long as there was no crying coming from the room or signs of noise, it was okay. We know that they were quite happy with Matt's alleged check at 9.30pm because. when he returned, neither of the McCann parents asked if Matt had actually gone into the room or actually seen Madeleine in there. If they had been worried, they would have asked. But they didn't, despite the fact that the Russell child had, allegedly,  been violently sick while unattended that very evening - necessitating, Russell staying behind in the apartment to clean up. The child also, apparently, had a badly upset stomach during the holiday, according to the parents. 

But the McCanns were clearly not concerned on about their children on that score. The McCanns were happy that their children were safe. 

However illogical this belief system is, given that accidents in the home are not in the least unusual - especially for the under 5 year group and that the risk of an accident is going to be far higher if children are left unattended, I am simply highlighting it to indicate the belief system of the parents. It is clearly illogical as the risk of an adult not being there immediately in the event of accident or illness - to administer first aid and/or call an ambulance or take your child to A+E can, literally, be life-threatening,, not to mention hugely distressing and upsetting for the child. But, despite its illogicality (and, frankly, it's downright negligence)  it is, nevertheless what the McCanns are adamant that they believed at the time.

(I do agree with the McCanns however on one point, and one point only, that the risk of a complete stranger stealing or molesting or harming or even killing you child is, indeed, extremely low. Usually these horrible things happen at the hands of the parents or a family member of someone the child knows. And in such cases the adult responsible will quite often claim that the child has disappeared, or had an unexplained accident or was kidnapped, as a way of covering up the crime.  Helpfully, as always, Kate provides statistics in her book that support this, for instance one of the quoted statistics is: 'The majority of completed child abductions are parental/family abductions, with 16% involving abduction by a stranger.') Indeed, Kate.

Anyway, I have digressed, but I think it is important to be very clear about how Kate felt and what Kate did and said on that fateful evening. And Gerry too.

At 10pm, when Kate goes to check on the children, as she walks up to the apartment, she is still a happy and contented little bunny, knowing that their children are at no risk of harm.

She looks inside and, so confident is she that the children are happy and safe and absolutely fine that she almost doesn't bother to look into the children's bedroom (which you must admit is a bit negligent, given that Russell had told Matt that his own child had been violently sick and to tell everyone at the table that was the reason he was staying in the apartment. Don't you think it's a bit odd that Kate wouldn't have been worried about her own three children as being violently sick as if another child in the group had a tummy bug these can sweep around holiday resorts like the plague....anyway....clearly both Kate and Gerry had much more pressing issues to deal with)

However, noticing that the bedroom door is open quite wide, not how they had apparently left it: "At first I assumed that Matt must have moved it. I walked over and gently began to pull it to." (ie: not go inside)

The only reason she became suspicious that something wasn't right was when: "Suddenly it slammed shut, as if caught by a draught."

This surprises her a little so she checks that she closed the patio doors behind her, which apparently she did. So she then goes back to the children's bedroom (remember, she is still happy that the children were not put at risk at any time) and 'glanced' at Madeleine's bed. Seeing her not in it, she checks that she hasn't gone into the parent's bed. 

Okay, so far, so logical - or at least as logical as the McCann's health and safety beliefs are (and social workers could have a field day with them!)  Their children are not at any risk from being stolen from their beds by a stranger.

From this point onwards, however, the McCann logic, such as it was, flies right out of the open window, presumably closely behind the mystery abductor. Kate's belief system dramatically rotates around 360 degrees and, on discovering that Madeleine has not got into their own bed:

"The first wave of panic hit me. As I ran back into the children's room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear. Dear God, no! Please no!


You wouldn't want Kate to be the first medic at the scene of a car crash, would you? 

Within the space of less than a minute - in fact I think that Kate said in an interview that she KNEW within 30 seconds ('there was no doubt in my mind') that Madeleine 'had been taken'.

That must be the fastest piece of detective work in history. It should go into the Guinness Book of Records. Kate doesn't hang around with making a diagnosis! Aren't doctors supposed to rule out the statistically most likely scenarios before considering the least likely scenarios?  How does this diagnosis fit in with the McCann's carefully considered risk assessment method? 

You know, the one that acknowledges that stranger abductions are so rare that it had never occurred to either Kate or Gerry that it could possibly happen in this safe, family-friendly resort? (There are many interviews in which these are pretty much their exact words. )

Thirty seconds earlier, Kate had considered the risk of a stranger abducting the children as zero risk, And half a minute later Kate is  100% certain that this is precisely what has happened. There are no other options, according to Kate. "Refusing to acknowledge what I already knew.......I knew, deep down.......I knew that Madeleine had been abducted."

So much so that Kate writes that she is frustrated when David Payne says, 'Let's just check the apartment.' (I wonder why she added that sentence which David Payne apparently thinks it is worth searching the apartment while Kate knows there is no point - is it planted there to suggest that DP doesn't know what Kate knows? Or for some other reason?)

"I'd done that, and I knew, I knew, that Madeleine had been abducted."

But when had Kate searched the apartment? She gives no description of doing this in her book. None whatsoever.  The only search that she did for Madeleine, according to her book, is looking inside their bedroom and discovering that Madeleine had not got into their bed. She did not look in the kitchen. She did not search the lounge or the dining area. She did not look in the wardrobes either in the children's bedroom or in their room. She does not describe looking into the bathroom, which would be one of the most logical places that Madeleine would be if not in her bed. She does not open the front door and look outside - Madeleine could have let herself out of the front door to go and try to find her parents. She could have been standing on the door step. Or anywhere near the apartment if she had let herself out.

But, no. She does none of those things. Instead, she is, apparently 'hit by panic' and when she sees the window open and the shutters up she is hit by 'nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear.'

The stupid woman hasn't even searched the apartment?! How does Kate know that Madeleine isn't hiding under a bed? Or in a cupboard? Or someone opened the window and shutters for an innocent reason? Or that Madeleine hadn't opened them? (If I remember rightly, in one interview Kate very indignantly scotches the idea that Madeleine could have got out this way saying: how could Madeleine open them all - and close them all behind her - ooops - get the story right Kate! You discovered the window and shutters open, remember, so Madeleine wouldn't have had to close them behind her?!)

Stark raving bonkers, the whole thing. You couldn't make it up. The biggest load of bilge and codswallop I have ever heard in my entire life. 

Both the McCann are seriously personality disordered, imo. Narcissistic, psychopathic, anti-social, entirely delusional. You could laugh at them except for the fact that they have got away with........at the expense of so many people.

Not least Madeleine.
The tale would have a lot more credibility were it admitted that the children were being sedated in the evenings, thus not in danger of getting into mischief when left alone.  It's one way (the only way?) of being certain that they would be fine when left alone and would explain the parental confidence that this was ok, which otherwise makes no sense whatever.  It would explain why KMcC instantly knew M was abducted when thoughts of danger had never previously entered her mind, if K was in a position to be certain M was incapable of leaving the apartment on her own.  If this kind of detail is added it instantly makes  the tale as told actually quite plausible, whereas the lack of it transforms it into the unbelievable nonsense we have before us.

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by Penfold on 23.02.14 14:42

@Monty Heck wrote:

The tale would have a lot more credibility were it admitted that the children were being sedated in the evenings, thus not in danger of getting into mischief when left alone.  It's one way (the only way?) of being certain that they would be fine when left alone and would explain the parental confidence that this was ok, which otherwise makes no sense whatever.  It would explain why KMcC instantly knew M was abducted when thoughts of danger had never previously entered her mind, if K was in a position to be certain M was incapable of leaving the apartment on her own.  If this kind of detail is added it instantly makes  the tale as told actually quite plausible, whereas the lack of it transforms it into the unbelievable nonsense we have before us.
It would definitely have backed up her certainty that M could not have woken and wandered off, but imo it would seriously have hampered the image of 'responsible parenting' and consequently affected contributions to the Fund?
If I had been of a mind to donate cash to find Madeleine [which I wasn't!], I would be much less likely to contribute had I heard that they'd sedated the children in order to go out wining and dining.

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by canada12 on 23.02.14 15:39

The most amazing thing is that one of the other children was vomiting and ill, and not much is made of this at all. The danger of a small child aspirating vomit and suffocating is there, and yet the Tapas crew blithely left their kids alone and one of them only returned to stay and look after their child AFTER it transpired it was quite ill and vomiting. If I was a responsible parent that alone would have sent me back to my kids to check on them - as someone mentioned above - to make sure they, too, weren't vomiting and in danger of aspirating the vomit and suffocating.

To my mind, this tells me one of three things:

1. The entire group of parents were negligent in leaving their children alone night after night, with not a thought about the possibility of something happening such as a suddenly ill child vomiting or worse
2. The entire group of parents were quite responsible and one parent was always staying behind to look after the group of children, all sleeping in one room, so that if one of them became ill, someone was on hand to look after them
3. None of the children were ill that night, but the mention of vomiting is a red herring. Is it possible Madeleine vomited and aspirated the vomit and died that way, earlier in the holiday - and the mention of it regarding the other child would be to explain away the washing of sheets, which might not have belonged to the other child, but might have belonged to Madeleine.


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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by Watching on 23.02.14 15:56

@canada12 wrote:The most amazing thing is that one of the other children was vomiting and ill, and not much is made of this at all. The danger of a small child aspirating vomit and suffocating is there, and yet the Tapas crew blithely left their kids alone and one of them only returned to stay and look after their child AFTER it transpired it was quite ill and vomiting. If I was a responsible parent that alone would have sent me back to my kids to check on them - as someone mentioned above - to make sure they, too, weren't vomiting and in danger of aspirating the vomit and suffocating.

To my mind, this tells me one of three things:

1. The entire group of parents were negligent in leaving their children alone night after night, with not a thought about the possibility of something happening such as a suddenly ill child vomiting or worse
2. The entire group of parents were quite responsible and one parent was always staying behind to look after the group of children, all sleeping in one room, so that if one of them became ill, someone was on hand to look after them
3. None of the children were ill that night, but the mention of vomiting is a red herring. Is it possible Madeleine vomited and aspirated the vomit and died that way, earlier in the holiday - and the mention of it regarding the other child would be to explain away the washing of sheets, which might not have belonged to the other child, but might have belonged to Madeleine.

And not much, is made of (and as told by Mr & Mrs) that on the morning of 3rd May 2007 Madeleine she told them that she had been crying the previous night, her younger brother too, upset. This, if true, should have had Mr & Mrs in a state of shame and remorse at what they had done to their children.  Should have shook them to the core, the thought of all the dangers, if Madeleine had got out of bed.   More than anything else, knowing their children had been crying and upset, should have had them, like any normal parents, filled with guilt, for the pain and suffering they had caused their little ones.  No normal, loving parent would have left these children alone again -EVER, and not just on that holiday!    Mr & Mrs?  They went out as usual!  I find it disturbing that those who interview Mr & Mrs sit there and accept their account when they say 'Madeleine just moved on.'   Even if the child did so.   It was reckless conduct on their part to leave these kids again.   Yet they sit at interviews, bold as brass and repeat this story time and time again, as though it was a normal thing to do?   And not one of those interviewing got the balls to say so!

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by lj on 23.02.14 19:23

@canada12 wrote:The most amazing thing is that one of the other children was vomiting and ill, and not much is made of this at all. The danger of a small child aspirating vomit and suffocating is there, and yet the Tapas crew blithely left their kids alone and one of them only returned to stay and look after their child AFTER it transpired it was quite ill and vomiting. If I was a responsible parent that alone would have sent me back to my kids to check on them - as someone mentioned above - to make sure they, too, weren't vomiting and in danger of aspirating the vomit and suffocating.

To my mind, this tells me one of three things:

1. The entire group of parents were negligent in leaving their children alone night after night, with not a thought about the possibility of something happening such as a suddenly ill child vomiting or worse
2. The entire group of parents were quite responsible and one parent was always staying behind to look after the group of children, all sleeping in one room, so that if one of them became ill, someone was on hand to look after them
3. None of the children were ill that night, but the mention of vomiting is a red herring. Is it possible Madeleine vomited and aspirated the vomit and died that way, earlier in the holiday - and the mention of it regarding the other child would be to explain away the washing of sheets, which might not have belonged to the other child, but might have belonged to Madeleine.


Read "mother" Rachel's rogatory.She did not want to do the check, because it was so scary in the dark.

It's amazing she can even say that. Yes they were all negligent

and sociopaths.

All IMO

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by lj on 23.02.14 19:29

@Watching wrote:
@canada12 wrote:The most amazing thing is that one of the other children was vomiting and ill, and not much is made of this at all. The danger of a small child aspirating vomit and suffocating is there, and yet the Tapas crew blithely left their kids alone and one of them only returned to stay and look after their child AFTER it transpired it was quite ill and vomiting. If I was a responsible parent that alone would have sent me back to my kids to check on them - as someone mentioned above - to make sure they, too, weren't vomiting and in danger of aspirating the vomit and suffocating.

To my mind, this tells me one of three things:

1. The entire group of parents were negligent in leaving their children alone night after night, with not a thought about the possibility of something happening such as a suddenly ill child vomiting or worse
2. The entire group of parents were quite responsible and one parent was always staying behind to look after the group of children, all sleeping in one room, so that if one of them became ill, someone was on hand to look after them
3. None of the children were ill that night, but the mention of vomiting is a red herring. Is it possible Madeleine vomited and aspirated the vomit and died that way, earlier in the holiday - and the mention of it regarding the other child would be to explain away the washing of sheets, which might not have belonged to the other child, but might have belonged to Madeleine.

And not much, is made of (and as told by Mr & Mrs) that on the morning of 3rd May 2007 Madeleine she told them that she had been crying the previous night, her younger brother too, upset. This, if true, should have had Mr & Mrs in a state of shame and remorse at what they had done to their children.  Should have shook them to the core, the thought of all the dangers, if Madeleine had got out of bed.   More than anything else, knowing their children had been crying and upset, should have had them, like any normal parents, filled with guilt, for the pain and suffering they had caused their little ones.  No normal, loving parent would have left these children alone again -EVER, and not just on that holiday!    Mr & Mrs?  They went out as usual!  I find it disturbing that those who interview Mr & Mrs sit there and accept their account when they say 'Madeleine just moved on.'   Even if the child did so.   It was reckless conduct on their part to leave these kids again.   Yet they sit at interviews, bold as brass and repeat this story time and time again, as though it was a normal thing to do?   And not one of those interviewing got the balls to say so!

Very telling is the face of the "mother" telling this heartwrenching story:



The disdain is almost as heartbreaking as the story. These parents are true sociopaths, look at Kate's face or listen to Gerry's "wisdom":
"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"

All just my opinion of course.

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by j.rob on 23.02.14 20:17

@canada12 wrote:The most amazing thing is that one of the other children was vomiting and ill, and not much is made of this at all. The danger of a small child aspirating vomit and suffocating is there, and yet the Tapas crew blithely left their kids alone and one of them only returned to stay and look after their child AFTER it transpired it was quite ill and vomiting. If I was a responsible parent that alone would have sent me back to my kids to check on them - as someone mentioned above - to make sure they, too, weren't vomiting and in danger of aspirating the vomit and suffocating.

To my mind, this tells me one of three things:

1. The entire group of parents were negligent in leaving their children alone night after night, with not a thought about the possibility of something happening such as a suddenly ill child vomiting or worse
2. The entire group of parents were quite responsible and one parent was always staying behind to look after the group of children, all sleeping in one room, so that if one of them became ill, someone was on hand to look after them
3. None of the children were ill that night, but the mention of vomiting is a red herring. Is it possible Madeleine vomited and aspirated the vomit and died that way, earlier in the holiday - and the mention of it regarding the other child would be to explain away the washing of sheets, which might not have belonged to the other child, but might have belonged to Madeleine.


Vomiting is one of the symptoms of an (accidental or otherwise) overdose of sedatives. I wonder why Russell and Tanner admitted that their child had vomited violently that evening so one or other of them stayed in the apartment. And washed bed clothes etc. I do believe they also suggested that their child had a badly upset stomach during the trip. Again, this is an extraordinary admission, given that they left the child alone at night despite being ill. 

Why did they not worry that the vomiting/diarrhea episodes, whether true or not might (possibly) implicate them in some way - by making them look neglectful, say, or possibly supporting a theory that the Tapas parents gave their children sedatives and hence 'knew' that they would not wander away from the apartments if they woke up.

The McCaanns and their friends always say things for a reason. If it was to place them away from the table that evening, why not just say that their child cried and they stayed? Or had a tummy ache? Why admit or make up the vomiting?

Possible reasons: for the vomiting episode: to explain why bedclothes had been washed that night (might have been bed clothes from another bed, or another child's vomit - eg: Madeleine).  For the diarrhea - to account for large amounts of washing being done. To explain away a bad smell. 

Other possible reasons: To mimimize the stress of lying, sticking to a version of events that is similar to what really happened, but just slotting in other characters (eg: their child vomited when in fact it was Madeleine).  To 'cover up' having used sedatives on their own child - as surely if they had done, and their child had vomited, then they would not admit to this. So it's  a double bluff (and we know that the McCanns and their friends are experts at the double-bluff, imo).

Overdoses of sedatives:

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/barbs/a/overdose.htm

What Are the Symptoms?
Signs and symptoms of an overdose are:


  • Slurred speech

  • Unsteadiness

  • Trouble breathing

  • Dizziness or fainting spells

  • Vomiting

  • Being unable to think or respond normally

  • Shock

  • Coma


How Is an Overdose Treated?
People who have overdosed on sedatives are admitted to the hospital and watched closely, usually in intensive care, until out of danger. Approximately 25 percent of overdose deaths occur after the person has been hospitalized.



I strongly believe that Madeleine, at least, was sedated during the holiday. It is perfectly possible that she was overdosed, either accidentally or on purpose, and vomited. She could have choked on vomit or she could have vomited and woken up with the other symptoms of overdose - unsteadiness, dizzy etc. Amaral's theory has Madeleine crying out and falling or banging her head and falling behind the sofa. This would be perfectly possible if she had violently vomited (thus ejecting some of the sedative) and then become terrified.


Treatment for sedative overdose may include:


  • Medicine to force vomiting.


Did any of the Tapas friends or the McCAnns try to administer first aid or ameliorate the effects of a sedative overdose/adverse reaction to drugs? Perhaps the Tanner/Russell admission of their own child vomiting was to cover tracks in the event of vomit being found on bedclothes - other evidence of this having happened to Madeleine.


So much neglect and (medical) negligence here. And given that the McCanns, by their own admission, think that the abductor might have sedated all three of their children on the night of Madeleine's disappearance (and maybe even the night before) how negligent was it of this group of doctors to not take the twins to hospital that night? 


The guilt and culpability of the McCAnns and their friends behaviour on that holiday drips through their accounts of what happened.


For instance: Matt when he allegedly did the 9.30pm check on the McCann children claims that he saw the twins in their cots and he could see their chests moving, in other words he could see they were breathing. If Madeleine had reacted badly to sedation, the twins might have done too. It is odd that Matt in his statement refers to seeing the twins chests moving. Was he there to check they were alive? Given that they did not wake up at all that night, it suggests they were in a coma. Perhaps this had been the plan for Madeleine too, but she either responded in a way that was unexpected, or they got the dose wrong, or she had an adverse reaction, leading to some of the symptoms outlined above.


There is so much that is negligent in the behaviour of this group of doctors, whether they were sedating their own children, or whether the McCann children were sedated by an intruder. Either way it would warrant emergency treatment.


Scandalous. Totally negligent. They really do sicken me.

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by Mirage on 23.02.14 20:22

I agree with everything you've said lj. They will not know what hits them when their children are grown and read about all this neglect, or watch that vile face-pull of KM's. It makes me sick.

In respect of RO  - to have to take on board that your mother was such a craven coward as to leave your infant self alone in a setting where she herself was fearful to walk will rebound on her faster than she can say reconstruction, Oh yes, and all the Tapas children will ask 'Mummy, Daddy, (Granny) why wouldn't you go back to Portugal and help the police find Madeleine?' And they will ask.

I believe KM has already pre-empted a little local difficulty by her declaration that she has not allowed the twins a sleepover. I think,like most things that come out of that woman's mouth for public consumption, you can turn the statement on its head. If I were a parent I most certainly would not allow my child anywhere near two parents who think reckless abandonment of three infants is within the bounds of reasonable parenting. I would be sizing up that attitude and weighing it against my child's safety.

Any mention of the McCann name carries a social stigma already. Many people regard the subject as unacceptable dinner party talk and it is a no-no at social gatherings. It has the effect of someone being sick in their lap I have discovered. People know that there is something distinctly off about them, even if they don't know the detail.

Life has a way of exacting a price, They haven't reached the age, nor level of maturity, that gives them any inkling that karma really does happen and that what you sow you will most definitely reap. Even if it isn't the judicial path we all want, they will pay for this monstrous dereliction of duty to their infants and the trauma they have caused so many who came within their wicked orbit.

Ultimately they will be judged by their own flesh and blood and I would hate to be them when that day arrives

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by Guest on 23.02.14 23:41

Two comments. 

I've never seen the pair but they do darken the steets where I live fairly frequently. Whilst as stated above they are not the topic of polite dinner conversation, I've yet to hear any sympathy for them. In fact the only comments I've ever heard are along tbe lines of I saw them on the high street/at the theatre and everyone stared at them. Doesn't say a lot for celebrity status.

Regarding sick children, my youngest was a big croupy/wheezy baby. She would be well one minute, gasping for breath the next. Now she is 10 and as as strong as a horse but on several occasions as a toddler I took her in to the doctors panicing. On all but one of those occasions (bearing on mind sometimes she was seen before other patients or in one case examined in the waiting room), I was left to look after her. Our GP, who I have the utmost respect for, would say 'Any other child I would send to hospital. In your case I want you to exercise extreme vigilance and call an ambulance immediately if anything changes.' Whilst it was a vote of confidence from him, it absolutely terrified me. Believe me, extreme vigilance was exercised and we took the ambulance/hospital route on occasion when it was clear she needed steroids. We never left her on her own. We took turns to sit on the floor in her very small room throughout those awful nights. If she was ill we stayed with her 24/7, no discussion. Most notable was the night our son had his tonsils out. Dad slept by his bedside 10 miles away in our regional hospital while I was at her bedside 7 miles in the other direction in our local hospital.

Leaving ill children on their own? Don't believe a word of it.

My children are now in their early teens and both have had a virus this week. It's been like sleeping or in reality trying to sleep in a station. They have been either going to bed in our bed or waking us up in the night. Do I mind .... no. Are we exhausted .... yes.  But that's what parents do. When they are older, going to the pub, we'll let but we will be lying in bed awake until they come in. 

10 mins delay in posting this! My daughter is up now - fell out of bed and banged her head. Nothing serious and full of beans but that's tonight's sleep disrupted. 

I am by no means an anxious parent. The statements of the T9 re their childcare arrangements, the comatose twins and the babies/todders with d&v are beyond belief from the normal population let alone a group of doctors.

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by Watching on 24.02.14 9:59

chilli wrote:Two comments. 

I've never seen the pair but they do darken the steets where I live fairly frequently. Whilst as stated above they are not the topic of polite dinner conversation, I've yet to hear any sympathy for them. In fact the only comments I've ever heard are along tbe lines of I saw them on the high street/at the theatre and everyone stared at them. Doesn't say a lot for celebrity status.

Regarding sick children, my youngest was a big croupy/wheezy baby. She would be well one minute, gasping for breath the next. Now she is 10 and as as strong as a horse but on several occasions as a toddler I took her in to the doctors panicing. On all but one of those occasions (bearing on mind sometimes she was seen before other patients or in one case examined in the waiting room), I was left to look after her. Our GP, who I have the utmost respect for, would say 'Any other child I would send to hospital. In your case I want you to exercise extreme vigilance and call an ambulance immediately if anything changes.' Whilst it was a vote of confidence from him, it absolutely terrified me. Believe me, extreme vigilance was exercised and we took the ambulance/hospital route on occasion when it was clear she needed steroids. We never left her on her own. We took turns to sit on the floor in her very small room throughout those awful nights. If she was ill we stayed with her 24/7, no discussion. Most notable was the night our son had his tonsils out. Dad slept by his bedside 10 miles away in our regional hospital while I was at her bedside 7 miles in the other direction in our local hospital.

Leaving ill children on their own? Don't believe a word of it.

My children are now in their early teens and both have had a virus this week. It's been like sleeping or in reality trying to sleep in a station. They have been either going to bed in our bed or waking us up in the night. Do I mind .... no. Are we exhausted .... yes.  But that's what parents do. When they are older, going to the pub, we'll let but we will be lying in bed awake until they come in. 

10 mins delay in posting this! My daughter is up now - fell out of bed and banged her head. Nothing serious and full of beans but that's tonight's sleep disrupted. 

I am by no means an anxious parent. The statements of the T9 re their childcare arrangements, the comatose twins and the babies/todders with d&v are beyond belief from the normal population let alone a group of doctors.

As parents we wish nothing more than for our children to be healthy, happy, and never to be harmed in any way.  The mere thought of our child/ren who we have brought into this world, the children we love, being harmed in any way, particularly so by another, is unbearable.  When our child is ill, as you describe Chilli we would take their place in an instant, to save them any suffering at all.  We watch over them, are there at all times especially when they are ill to be sure we can take immediate action if necessary should symptoms become worse, or if our child simply, needs a hug, comfort, re-assurance.  We are there.

It does therefore quite beggar belief that Mr & Mrs and company all abandoned their kids as they have claimed.  Some children they say were ill.

Either this entire group of parents, are the evil self serving bastards as their treatment of the children would deem them to be, frightening in itself, or perhaps more frightening, that there is a more sinister reason as to why Madeleine had to disappear, something so awful that it had to be "buried" despite it leaving them in the position of forever being known as the infamous parents who so cruelly abandoned their children, causing the disappearance and possible death of their first born.

But it is not just Mr & Mrs.  All of these parents are guilty of neglect by their own admission.   And it is their children, throughout their lives who will carry the burden of their parents actions.   These children will always be known for what happened in PDL.   There is no getting away from that for them.  And that is the tragedy. It is the children who pay the price for their  parents actions, it is they who are the victims.  Not Mr & Mrs & Co.   Though to listen to them it is all 'me,me,me.'

Matthew Oldfield said in one of his police interviews regarding the children being left alone, something along the lines, that it did not concern him, if his child woke when on her own.  His child was what, 2 years old?   He stated that if she did, she might cry for 10/15 minutes then would go back to sleep.

That statement always sends a shiver.   To know my child was in a distraught state with no one there to give comfort would cause me so much pain, the thought of my child's distress, and if I was the cause of that distress, I would never forgive myself for having left my child alone, and particularly so in strange surroundings, only adds to.   

If we are to believe these people - then Mr & Mrs gave not a toss about Madeleine telling them she and her brother had been awake and crying.   Leaving them alone in an unlocked apartment, and Matt Oldfield never gave a toss about his young child either any distress she may have suffered in her parents absence.

These are not the statements of normal, loving caring parents.  They are statements if given in evidence at any Court Hearing, by any parents, not this group alone, fighting for custody or whatever of young children, would be damning to any chance of their being given access to the children let alone having them in their care.

If any Family Court Judge was to watch film footage of Mr & Mrs telling of how Madeleine told them she and Sean had cried, and of how they then went out for the evening for a booze up,  and left their kids again, leaving them in an unlocked apartment - where do we honestly think the McCann kids would be now?   Placed no doubt with loving caring, responsible persons.   Where do we believe the McCanns would be now?  Mrs certainly wouldn't be ambassador for a children's charity.  And Mr wouldn't be grinning so widely through the jail cell bars!

You are right Chilli -their story of child neglect is hard to swallow - but if true, they should not have kids in their care!

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by sami on 24.02.14 10:11

Your posts above, give a normal, healthy insight into the "joys" of parenting !

That said, those who would not be as responsible, would rarely, if ever, admit it.

What then could be so bad, so important to hide, that these parents stood up on the world stage and admitted to being so un-caring, un-feeling and neglectful ?

Kate in particular we know was very mindful of image, "what wold her mother say" etc.

True child neglectors would never admit to it.

Their admission has to be the lessor of two evils, in their mind.  Find the second evil and therein is the reason for whatever really happened.

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by Watching on 24.02.14 10:43

j.rob


"You also have to wrap your brain around how quickly the McCanns and their friends can do a 360 degree turn in terms of the apparent safety of leaving the children without a babysitter and instead doing their own baby-listening.

"As the restaurant was so near, we collectively decided to do our own child-checking service. .....Speaking for myself, I can say, hand on heart,  that it never once crossed my mind that this might not be a safe option. If I'd had any doubts whatsoever, I would simply never have entertained it. ......I would never knowingly place them at risk, no matter how small a risk it might seem to be." ((p53-54)."





A fine example j.rob of 'Mrs' at her devious best.  Mrs trying to convince us all that what they did was an okay thing to do, or that is, convince us of her innocence in the self-confessed neglect of her kids - "it never once crossed my mind that this might not be a safe option."      Stupid, stupid, evil woman!   I''d like to hear her tell that one in Court!


On top of her other story at the dinner table of how Madeleine told them she had been crying, telling her doctor mates, she had left the door open, yet had no doubts that doing this was not a safe option!


Think about it Mrs - What options did you have?

1.  Stay at home with your kids, one or both of you.
2.  Take your kids with you. (which reminds me of Mr' stupid comment - we couldn't take our kids with us, our kids were sleeping at that time!  Doh!)
3.  Hire nanny service to come in and look after them.
4. Hire the night creche, take the kids there where they could sleep until your return in the care of responsible adults.
5. Do your 'collective' thing and apply it to each set of parents taking it in turn stay home and look after kids.
6. Leave them alone in the holiday apartment.   Leave the patio door unlocked allowing your child to get out.  Leave without checking if the front door was locked.  Without checking if all windows and shutters were locked.   


Now Mrs, after having perused the options - which do you think is the safest?


Well it isn't NUMBER 6 - as that has the highest 'risk' factor!   Which begs the question, how does Mrs measure the risk factor, what system does she use?


That is the type of question which would be put to Mrs by the prosecution if she was ever to appear in a Court of Law charged with child neglect.  Even a junior lawyer for prosecution would rip her and 'Mr' apart.


So what makes all those who interview Mr & Mrs who hear them tell these stories, not question the ridiculousness of the statements they make?   A child is missing, missing because of Mr & Mrs, and the interviewers, sit there nodding like the ornamental dogs on 1970's car dashboards, and ooh and ah, with silly looking sympathetic expressions on their faces, when they should be saying - What a load of bollocks, you pair are getting away with murder!  Is not NUMBER 6 the least safe option, any fool can see that?


As to 'Mrs' her 'hand on her heart' crap, enough to make you want to vomit.   What heart is that?  From where I'm sitting, she and Mr Heart Doctor don't possess one between them.   She can put a hand on each butt cheek if it takes her fancy,  and it wouldn't make her story any more believable.

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by Doug D on 24.02.14 11:11

Watching:
‘And not much, is made of (and as told by Mr & Mrs) that on the morning of 3rd May 2007 Madeleine she told them that she had been crying the previous night, her younger brother too, upset. This, if true, should have had Mr & Mrs in a state of shame and remorse at what they had done to their children’.
 
P.239
‘Why didn’t you come earlier?
‘Shh,’ answered Clara, cooling Nora’s brow. ‘I’m here now’
 
SORRY, I'M QUOTING FROM THE WRONG BOOK!, that was Gerry’s bit of holiday reading ‘The Interpretation of Murder’ by Jed Rubenfeld, and this quote is followed up by a p.129 moment.
 
According to the bewk p.62, M. said (to us at breakfast time):
 
‘Why didn’t you come when Sean & I cried last night?’
 
Gerry’s holiday reading? Kate’s holiday reading? Maybe it was Madeleine’s holiday reading, we are told she was ‘bright & articulate’.


It just all gets so confusing.

Was this really Thursday, Wednesday or Tuesday morning. Was it dark at night or cold, hot, sunny, windy, rainy?

Light streaming through the shutters, so much so that you could see the (presumably very shallow) breathing of the twins from 'does not know how far away he was from the bedroom door' MO and through the solid ended cot. 

Why was it only M. & Sean crying? Was Amelie in the other cot in the parents room, as seen by the maid on Wednesday morning?

Which night did Kate get upset by Gerry's snoring/watching football/big b'd bar maids/other, so slept with the kid's?




COME ON REDWOOD, IT REALLY IS TIME TO GET TO GRIP's WITH ALL THIS NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




 

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Re: I want to believe - I really do ! !

Post by russiandoll on 24.02.14 14:51

on twitter


 

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             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


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