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MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by tiny on 18.02.14 10:26

@gbwales wrote:If Clarence is reading this thread he can feel rightly proud of the effect his work has. Proof that he really does earn his ongoing money from The Fund.

If that lowlife reads here I hope he tells us how much money he has made out of the death of a little girl.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by AndyB on 18.02.14 10:34

@Bishop Brennan wrote:
@AndyB wrote:
@Bishop Brennan wrote:
Given the general apathy of the public, I doubt there would more than a concentrated flurry of outraged online posting in the event of a whitewash.  The evidence so far suggests that neither will happen, rather that the case will just fade away with a bland official SY summary along the lines of: "The evidence points to an abduction by person or persons in the area at the time. There are strong suspicions about Tractorman / Gypsies / Burglars, however, there is insufficient evidence to prosecute anyone of anything."  
If that is the objective, and despite what I'm about to write I do share your concern that it may be, then why drag it out? We'd have heard the summary you suggest already. Instead we got a statement that the review was upgraded to an investigation. Why bother upgrading given the apathy and gullibility of the majority of the public? I really can't see any reason for the government to allow it to go on this long if the intention was to whitewash it.

I'm not sure the objective ever was to whitewash it.  I think Cameron genuinely believed there was a chance that SY could crack the case. SY didn't offer or volunteer. They were instructed to do it.  By now SY know that there is no chance of that and yet are obliged to see it through to the end. They are being paid to do it, and getting some nice trips too.  CW proved that no breakthrough will happen and SY are not allowed to go after the McCann.  

So the end I suggest is just a logical one to a case that should never have been reopened in the first place. It could take months though because of the inbuilt delays of the ILR process.  
If Cameron did believe that the case could be cracked, who is preventing SY from investigating the McCanns?

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by Guest on 18.02.14 10:39

Well said Nigel   big grin 


Nigel Moore ‏@mccannfiles · 14 mins
@JerryLawton On a weekly basis, The Beano works out cheaper than the Daily Star and the stories are much better. #mccann


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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by Tony Bennett on 18.02.14 10:41

@ultimaThule wrote:
As I thought I'd explained some pages back, the police have no power to issue rogatories or international letters of request to other countries, Tony, and if any ILORs have been issued they will not have come from Redwood or bear his signature or that of any of his superior officers, or the Home Secretary for that matter. 
You've missed the point.

Whoever issues the rogatory letter does so because the Senior Investigating Officer, in this case Andy Redwood, wants one issued. 

Redwood requests one; the government issues it.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by ultimaThule on 18.02.14 10:49

It doesn't work like that, Tony, and, as I thought I'd also made clear some days ago on another thread, ILORs are customarily used for the formal transfer of evidence which enables it to be submitted in courts of law and not for the arrest or questioning of 'persons of interest' or 'suspects'.   

What we're reading in the press about ILORs is a load of bolleaux.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by Tony Bennett on 18.02.14 10:59

@ultimaThule wrote:It doesn't work like that, Tony, and, as I thought I'd also made clear some days ago on another thread, ILORs are customarily used for the formal transfer of evidence which enables it to be submitted in courts of law and not for the arrest or questioning of 'persons of interest' or 'suspects'. 
If you are right...

1. who is transferring evidence to whom?

2. evidence is to be submitted in which courts of law (Portugal or England)?

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by ultimaThule on 18.02.14 11:08

In this particular case, if and when ILORs are being sent to Portugal it will be for the purpose of formally acquiring evidence which can be submitted to an English court of law.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by Cristobell on 18.02.14 11:12

@sami wrote:Z
@AndyB wrote:
@Bishop Brennan wrote:
Given the general apathy of the public, I doubt there would more than a concentrated flurry of outraged online posting in the event of a whitewash.  The evidence so far suggests that neither will happen, rather that the case will just fade away with a bland official SY summary along the lines of: "The evidence points to an abduction by person or persons in the area at the time. There are strong suspicions about Tractorman / Gypsies / Burglars, however, there is insufficient evidence to prosecute anyone of anything."  
If that is the objective, and despite what I'm about to write I do share your concern that it may be, then why drag it out? We'd have heard the summary you suggest already. Instead we got a statement that the review was upgraded to an investigation. Why bother upgrading given the apathy and gullibility of the majority of the public? I really can't see any reason for the government to allow it to go on this long if the intention was to whitewash it.


The question that still needs answering is why did Portugal re-open the case ?

Their reported reluctance to entertain the tractorman/burglar  stories suggest they have a different opinion.

What is that ?  We have been told previously substantial new evidence would be required in order to re-commence an investigation in Portugal.  Either that goalpost has moved or the Portugese review team found sufficient reason.


That is what I would be interested to know, what is the basis for the Portugese investigation.  This latest story tells us it is something other than the pink bull printed in recent weeks.





Agree Sami. Portugal were not being put under pressure by the McCann Publicity machine to review the case, that pressure was on the British Government and it called for a British Review. When the British Review was granted via a sensational tabloid headline, we discovered that the Portuguese were carrying out a Review of their own.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by aiyoyo on 18.02.14 11:19

The title is a dead giveaway that the story is just more rubbish from McSewer.
Either that (the Mccanns are so insolent) or the Press is enjoying pissing off the Mccanns printing such rubbish and attributing it to Mcsewer.
If the OFM webmaster's statement is to be believed, then personally I think the Press is hyperventilating just to fill up column space.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by Pershing36 on 18.02.14 11:28

Could this be the start of an exit strategy from SY?

They can then avoid having to come up with a Whitewash or challenge the Tapas group.   They can simply say they cannot continue any further as the bungling PJ will not co-operate.

Basically they could get away with not having to explain why so much money has been spent for absolutely no result.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by PeterMac on 18.02.14 11:28

Letter rogatory
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A letter rogatory or letter of request is a formal request from a court to a foreign court for some type of judicial assistance. The most common remedies sought by letters rogatory are service of process and taking of evidence.
. . .
. . .
Taking of evidence
Another reason why a court may require assistance from a foreign court is to obtain evidence from a witness. This evidence may be to answer questions relevant to the determination of an issue of fact, or for disclosure of documents.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by Cristobell on 18.02.14 11:29

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:

SY cannot control negative stories about themselves, let alone those about a foreign police force. I also tend to think that if the Portuguese police were being asked to waste their time carrying out ridiculous enquiries about random gypsies, burglars and tractormen, they would protest.  They have already been dragged through the mire by the McCanns and the British press, they won't let them do it again.  
OK, I suggest that what is happening is that Scotland Yard is coming up with the names of possible suspects, not the PJ.

I struggle to see how Scotland Yard (based in Belgravia) would have the local knowledge to come up with the names of petty criminals operating on the Algarve.

That is why, e.g., there is apparently a team of six British detectives occupying an office in Faro.

Again, I really can't see six of Scotland Yard's finest occupying an office in Faro to faff about with an assortment of low lives while their Portuguese counterparts get on with the REAL investigation. It would be humiliating on every level.


The rogatory letters are about interviewing these possible suspects/persons of interst etc.

The Portuguese Police have said on the record that, as per international protocol, they will conduct the interviews, they will provide translators etc.

I may be wrong, but I interpret all the signals as suggesting that the Portuguese are co-operating very unwillingly with this process. They are only doing so because they have to.

Hence the leak to Correia da Manha pointing out that the PJ had not yet actioned the second rogatory letter, forcing Redwood to issue a third. I think this leak is to cause deliberate embarrassment to Redwood. Hence the 'bungling cops' response - which I believe was directed by Redwood in frustration.

Never in criminal history, so far as I am aware, has a police force given repeated advance warnings, e.g. to the 'three burglars', that they might be under suspicion and face arrest.

If there was the perfect co-operation that some on here are suggsting - maybe just wishful thinking - the three burglars would have been swooped on at 5am, as is customary with arresting susepcts, and interviewed under caution, months ago.

There is 'bad blood' between the two police forces, and they are sniping at each other via the newspapers in their respective countries


I am surprised you believe the burglar stories etc, Tony. Scotland Yard made it quite clear on Crimewatch, Smithman was their prime suspect, there was no mention of burglars or tractormen.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by Guest on 18.02.14 11:30

Can't you just smell the desperation oozing from the McCanns?

Going by the increasingly ridiculous newspaper headlines and nastiness of the pro-McCann twitterers, the panic levels in Rothley seems to be ramping up.

Hopefully with good reason.

 fingers crossed 


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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by haroldd2 on 18.02.14 11:33

@ultimaThule wrote:ILORs are customarily used for the formal transfer of evidence which enables it to be submitted in courts of law and not for the arrest or questioning of 'persons of interest' or 'suspects'.    
I don't know the details on this area of procedure, and corrections will be welcome, but I thought an ILOR was judiciary-to-judiciary. Of course in some countries where the criminal judicial system is inquisitorial the judiciary run a police service directly, but let's not get side-tracked by that. So my question is...if an English court has issued an ILOR, then doesn't that mean that they are asking for Portuguese judicial assistance which may help with a prosecution in England? Wouldn't any other reason for applying for the ILOR be an abuse of process?

What might that prosecution be?

If a non-British person has murdered a British person in Portugal, he hasn't committed an offence in the jurisdiction of the English courts - unless for example the offence is in a group which includes war crimes and the sexual abuse of children, those being two of the areas where the English courts claim universal jurisdiction.

A British person, however, can be prosecuted in England for an offence committed overseas, not only if it's one of the offences in that group, but also for manslaughter or murder. But that hardly makes sense in this case, because you would expect a manslaughter or murder in Portugal to be prosecuted in Portugal.

Whatever the intended prosecution is for, you would not expect the Portuguese judiciary to agree to help bring about a prosecution in England of someone who is thought to have committed a crime in Portugal, whatever the person's nationality and whatever the crime (war crime being a possible exception). They'd either prosecute the person in Portugal or tell Britain to take a hike.

What are the Brits actually doing?

My suspicion is that a lot of this is PR connected with what may soon happen in the libel trial.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by Cristobell on 18.02.14 11:38

@Pershing36 wrote:Could this be the start of an exit strategy from SY?

They can then avoid having to come up with a Whitewash or challenge the Tapas group.   They can simply say they cannot continue any further as the bungling PJ will not co-operate.

Basically they could get away with not having to explain why so much money has been spent for absolutely no result.



If SY are looking for an exit strategy, why did they open a review, a full investigation and publicly request more funds to carry on? Their actions to date suggest the opposite of an exit strategy, and in fact, one might even say that with each development they are upping the ante.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by ultimaThule on 18.02.14 11:58

Poe wrote:Can't you just smell the desperation oozing from the McCanns?

Going by the increasingly ridiculous newspaper headlines and nastiness of the pro-McCann twitterers, the panic levels in Rothley seems to be ramping up.

Hopefully with good reason.

 fingers crossed 

After a blessed but all too brief respite over Christmas and New Year, the eau d'cod began to permeate the press round about twelfth night which, coincidentally no doubt, was the eve of the date on which closing arguments in the libel trial were due to be heard, since when the UK media has bombarded us with ever more ludicrous scenarios while taking a sideswipe at the PJ, and the Portuguese press have followed suit in portraying SY as a bunch of incompetents who are unable to post a letter and have it arrive at the correct address.  

I don't wonder why?  big grin

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by ultimaThule on 18.02.14 12:07

@PeterMac wrote:Letter rogatory
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A letter rogatory or letter of request is a formal request from a court to a foreign court for some type of judicial assistance. The most common remedies sought by letters rogatory are service of process and taking of evidence.
. . .
. . .
Taking of evidence
Another reason why a court may require assistance from a foreign court is to obtain evidence from a witness. This evidence may be to answer questions relevant to the determination of an issue of fact, or for disclosure of documents.
Here's a poser for you, Peter  big grin  Why would an English court request assistance from a Portuguese court in a matter which has not come before it? 

In other words, in the specific matter of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, there is no case before either a criminal or civil court of England/Wales which would require assistance from the Portuguese judiciary. 

Useful tip: when considering possible answers take the Wardship proceedings out of any deliberations as they are not relevant to the answer and do not allow any notion of inquests/presumption of death to cloud clear thinking.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by nglfi on 18.02.14 12:13

If, as Petermac described above,  a letter rogatory can be used to request that evidence is obtained from a witness,  might not this simply be SY following up the leads they claim to have regarding 'persons of interest', which may or may not be burglars/former employees etc? Does it necessarily mean their requests are related to a pending court case in the UK?

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by Woofer on 18.02.14 12:28

dantezebu wrote:Don't forget this is the Daily Star we are talking about.

Yes...... and don`t forget who wrote the piece ... Jerry Lawton.

Who gave evidence at the Leveson Inquiry saying that the papers only write negative stuff when the police are unco-operative.  He gave the impression that `us journalists will make things worse if you police people don`t give us info`.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id415.html

IMO he has taken over as the McCann`s mouthpiece - the wording has come from the McCann camp, not from any policeman.  No policeman would say `they are putting a little girl`s life at risk` - unless of course he is totally corrupt and being paid handsomely by someone.

And ....  wasn`t Jerry Lawton also the journo who went on the Nancy Grace show spouting disinformation about the case?

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by PeterMac on 18.02.14 12:31

@ultimaThule wrote:
. . .
Here's a poser for you, Peter  big grin  Why would an English court request assistance from a Portuguese court in a matter which has not come before it? 
In other words, in the specific matter of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, there is no case before either a criminal or civil court of England/Wales which would require assistance from the Portuguese judiciary. 
Useful tip: when considering possible answers take the Wardship proceedings out of any deliberations as they are not relevant to the answer and do not allow any notion of inquests/presumption of death to cloud clear thinking.

I reply with another question,
Why would the two most senior officers of the Crown Prosecution Service go to Portugal for discussions with their counterparts, in a matter which has not been presented to their departments, and is still at the stage of a police investigation ?       [Well officially anyway !]

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by thegoat on 18.02.14 12:44

The "leaks" are getting more desperate now.... I hope this means good news is not too far away.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by aiyoyo on 18.02.14 13:04

@PeterMac wrote:Letter rogatory
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A letter rogatory or letter of request is a formal request from a court to a foreign court for some type of judicial assistance. The most common remedies sought by letters rogatory are service of process and taking of evidence.
. . .
. . .
Taking of evidence
Another reason why a [b]court may require assistance from a foreign court is to obtain evidence from a witness. [/b]This evidence may be to answer questions relevant to the determination of an issue of fact, or for disclosure of documents.

Nothing to stop one judiciary asking another judiciary to transfer power to them to interview witnesses in the UK.
The three seedy characters hinted by the Press maybe a-shifty-eye-pompous-man and his scrawny wife, and a mousy-hair-spokescreature.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by ultimaThule on 18.02.14 13:13

@PeterMac wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
. . .
Here's a poser for you, Peter  big grin  Why would an English court request assistance from a Portuguese court in a matter which has not come before it? 
In other words, in the specific matter of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, there is no case before either a criminal or civil court of England/Wales which would require assistance from the Portuguese judiciary. 
Useful tip: when considering possible answers take the Wardship proceedings out of any deliberations as they are not relevant to the answer and do not allow any notion of inquests/presumption of death to cloud clear thinking.

I reply with another question,
Why would the two most senior officers of the Crown Prosecution Service go to Portugal for discussions with their counterparts, in a matter which has not been presented to their departments, and is still at the stage of a police investigation ?       [Well officially anyway !]

Except in matters of traffic offences and similar cases, the decision as to what charge(s) is/are brought against suspected offenders rests with the CPS. 

In the case of extremely serious and/or high profile crimes, it is my experience that senior police officers liaise with the CPS at an early stage before investigations are complete and before all the facts are known.

In the specific case of Madeleine McCann, it's inconceivable that the CPS was not brought to the table, so to speak, back in 2007 and I have no doubt its input was sought in various of the decision making processes current at that time, nor do I have any doubt that the CPS held a watching brief until such time as Operation Grange moved from review to investigation, at which point its part in the proceedings became proactive.

The inference which can be drawn from the 3 meetings senior officers of the CPS held with their Portuguese counterparts in Lisbon is  that if it is found that British nationals are complicit in the heinous crime which was committed against a 3 year old British child in Portugal, they will be prosecuted in the criminal courts of England/Wales.

If it has not supplied the answer, the above should at the very least have provided a large clue as to the solution to the poser I've put before you  big grin

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by jeanmonroe on 18.02.14 13:13

Would everyone agree that DCI Redwood, his entire team and the Met/SY would have scrutinised, proof read and dotted every i and crossed every t before allowing BBC CW to be broadcast last October (2013)?

With DCI Andrew Redwood appearing, in person, on the CW programme.

The BBC would have only 'portrayed' with accuracy and in full agreement with DCI Redwood's team 'findings' to that date.

The most 'accurate' dipiction of events, as confirmed by the entire, 38 strong, Met Operation Grange team, after 2 years 5 months 'investigation', about what they think supposedly 'happened' in PDL, 3rd May 2007?

After DCI Redwood and the Met 'team' had full access to ALL the PJ 'files' released, into the public domain and probably the remaining PJ 'files' that were not released.

And ALL the ILOR are 'related' to CW programme 'suspects/poi' portrayed on the programme?

No 'Tannerman' for the PJ to 'find'. Andy's team found him. 'Smithman' to 'find' etc

Charity collecters, 'burglars', Dutch/German 'guys' etc.

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Re: MADDIE: COPS AT WAR - Daily Star 18/2/14

Post by mysterion on 18.02.14 13:18

This morning`s Wright Stuff showed the desk with this morning`s papers. On the top was the Daily Star. The actual review, which covered 12 other stories, failed to mention it.

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