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Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Guest on 16.02.14 20:54

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
[b]May be it goes like this:

Senior investigator in England wants a suspect to be interviewed in Portugal.

So:

Letter Redwood to Bernard Hogan-Howe (1)

Then:

Letter Bernard Hogan-Howe to Minister for Justice (2)

Then

Letter Minister for Justice to Home Secretary (3)

Then

Letter Home Secretary to Foreign Secretary (4)

Then

Foreign Secretary gets approval from Prime Minister (5)

Then

British Foreign Secretary writes to Portugese Foreign Secretary  (6)

Then

Portuguese Foreign Secretary writes to Attorney-General (7)

Then

Attorney-General writes to Minsterio Publico (8)

Then

Minsterio Publico writes to Head of PJ (9)

Then

Head of PJ contacts whoever is running the Portugese side of the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance. (10)

It was reported 2nd ILOR was received by AG (hand delivered personally?); and was forwarded to the Publico Miinsterio.
If report is accurate then (1) it could be sitting in Pblico Ministerio's in-tray awaiting perusal, or (2) it was seen and rejected, so a 3rd ILOR to be delivered quickly.  Given the close timing of the 2nd and 3rd ILOR, and close visits by MET officers, It could well be that the 3rd ILOR might be an adjusted/revised one replacing the 2nd ILOR.  I'm just speculating here, else it does not make sense for another ILOR to follow suit so closely when the previous one is still awaiting approval and/or action.

So long as the Public Ministerio does not approve it, it does not go further down the chain.

The MET elites sometimes overt and sometimes covert appearance in Portugal is harder to explain, as it has to be about more than just hand delivering the letter.
Moreover one would have thought any meeting with AG and/or Public Ministry would have to be done with counterpart/s of equal position meaning CPS and not MET.






This is my understanding of it - that the 2nd ILOR has not been forwarded to Faro PJ for action because the Public Ministry has not agreed to its demands, therefore it could well be that the 3rd ILOR is a revised version of the 2nd.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by sharonl on 16.02.14 21:22

This wont help much but I will post it anyway 

Scotland Yard sent third letter rogatory although the second did not get to PJ .

By Rui Gomes Pando - Reuters

Although the Judicial Police ( PJ ) have not yet met any of the approaches applied in the second letter rogatory sent to the Portuguese authorities in the investigation to the Maddie case , Scotland Yard has now announced that it will send a third legal order , with the most inquiries alleged suspects.

After another visit by British police for a routine meeting , yesterday , as the CM reported , this new request for help is seen as a sign of ' pressure ' on the Portuguese police .

When the CM was found , the second letter rogatory has not formally come to the inspectors of the Judicial Police of Faro.

" The British police can ask to understand . 's Prosecutor , before the Portuguese law , can not authorize " the CM con - fidenciou judicial source .

According to the British press revealed Commissioner Martin Hewitt , who is coordinating the British investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann ? occurred on May 3, 2007 , in Praia da Luz ? was " sent a letter with detailed requests," on Friday , a judicial act "as part of an ongoing process ." Added that " are procedures for the investigation to proceed effectively ."


If anyone can offer a better translation, here is the original text


Scotland Yard enviou terceira carta rogatória apesar de a segunda não ter chegado à PJ.

Por Rui Pando Gomes - Correio da Manhã

Apesar de a Polícia Judiciária (PJ) ainda não ter cumprido nenhuma das diligências pedidas na segunda carta rogatória enviada às autoridades portuguesas, no âmbito da investigação ao caso Maddie, a Scotland Yard anunciou agora que vai enviar um terceiro pedido judiciário, com mais inquirições a alegados suspeitos. 

Depois de mais uma visita da polícia inglesa, para uma reunião de rotina, anteontem, tal como o CM noticiou, este novo pedido de ajuda é visto como um sinal de 'pressão' sobre a polícia portuguesa.

Ao que o CM apurou, a segunda carta rogatória ainda não chegou formalmente aos inspetores da Polícia Judiciária de Faro. 

"A polícia inglesa pode pedir o que entender. O Ministério Público, perante a lei portuguesa, pode é não autorizar", con- fidenciou ao CM fonte judicial. 

Segundo revelou à imprensa inglesa o comissário Martin Hewitt, que está a coordenar a investigação britânica ao desaparecimento de Madeleine McCann ? ocorrido a 3 de maio de 2007, na praia da Luz ? foi "enviada uma carta com pedidos detalhados", na sexta-feira, um ato judicial que "faz parte de um processo contínuo". Adianta que "são procedimentos para que a investigação prossiga com eficácia".

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by marconi on 17.02.14 0:14

Mr. Bennett, when I wrote that a police lie, I did not mean corruption. I meant that the police are protecting an investigation. They have to be careful with their work.
I believe that all of the police officers who are working for Operation Grange are all honest.

Of course there could be corruption in an establishment with 53.000 employees.
But it definitely is not the rule.
I don't believe that the second letter didn't arrive in Portimão.  It has being said for some reason, it is my belief.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by marconi on 17.02.14 0:21

Mr. Bennett, when I wrote about the trap, I meant the 2nd letter not arriving in Portimão.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by CynicAl on 17.02.14 9:27

Thinking about what I would do... 

If I was an investigator, and I suspected the neglectful parents, and I suspected they had accomplices in Portugal, who had been paid for their involvement, but otherwise had no loyalty, no honour, and were open to better offers or persuasion...

If I wanted to turn up the heat on a couple of extremely stressed control freaks who can't abide having no information to such a degree that they use a professional spin machine to saturate the media with comment, chum in the water, flailing around trying to catch a bite of real information... 

I'd identify my key suspects in Portugal - the complicit - and I'd make my presence known informally. But not until I'd tapped or monitored every possible line of communication between the two countries. Then I'd make repeated visits strung out over a long time. Maybe more informal chats, maybe turn the heat up on the PortoSuspects to uncomfortable levels. But long and drawn out. A combination of public appearances and secret missions. Keep all the suspects confused, anxious and guessing. Line in the water... Bait gently hanging... Patient... 

And wait for someone to make a call, to reach out... 

Will it be "McCann... I wasn't paid enough for this kind of heat... I need half a mill to get out of here and go hole up in Thailand." Will it be "Kate here... Has the fuzz bin rownd your gaff, like? Have ya herd anythin'? Worra they lookin' faw?" Will it be "Mitchell here... Our mutual friend is asking if he can depend upon your co-operation?" 

Pressure on duly stressed people in an informational vacuum can have very strange effects in fomenting the kind of rash attempts at enlightenment that the guilty control freak needs in order to sleep at night, which can be all it takes for the stalking predator to get a single claw beyond the armour. The guilty control freak will always, personally or by agency, utilise means of going back to check that the clean up was thorough. 

And having thought that the sum of all police evidence existed in the PJ files, and having been shown time and again that new and undisclosed evidence exists which has brought both police forces out of stasis, with repeated demonstrations that the evidence is in Portugal, where the conspirator has least control, least access, I bet he's going absolutely bananas right about now. And I suspect the police know it. They've got their claws in an armadillo, and he's curled up tight, straining and rolling to make a break for it. They're waiting for the inevitablemoment when he releases himself for just a moment to try to find a more com fortable position to make the fight for survivaleasier...

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Hope Marconi is right

Post by utahagen on 17.02.14 11:15

Marconi, what you outlined is plausible and I so hope you are correct.

Do you think eventually police in Portugal or the UK will announce that they think the McCanns were involved in Madeleine's disappearance? I can't even care anymore if they'll ever be brought to trial, but I long for the satisfaction of hearing someone in authority officially point his finger at them.

What do you think will happen within, say, three years?

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Cristobell on 17.02.14 11:32

@CynicAl wrote:Thinking about what I would do... 

If I was an investigator, and I suspected the neglectful parents, and I suspected they had accomplices in Portugal, who had been paid for their involvement, but otherwise had no loyalty, no honour, and were open to better offers or persuasion...

If I wanted to turn up the heat on a couple of extremely stressed control freaks who can't abide having no information to such a degree that they use a professional spin machine to saturate the media with comment, chum in the water, flailing around trying to catch a bite of real information... 

I'd identify my key suspects in Portugal - the complicit - and I'd make my presence known informally. But not until I'd tapped or monitored every possible line of communication between the two countries. Then I'd make repeated visits strung out over a long time. Maybe more informal chats, maybe turn the heat up on the PortoSuspects to uncomfortable levels. But long and drawn out. A combination of public appearances and secret missions. Keep all the suspects confused, anxious and guessing. Line in the water... Bait gently hanging... Patient... 

And wait for someone to make a call, to reach out... 

Will it be "McCann... I wasn't paid enough for this kind of heat... I need half a mill to get out of here and go hole up in Thailand." Will it be "Kate here... Has the fuzz bin rownd your gaff, like? Have ya herd anythin'? Worra they lookin' faw?" Will it be "Mitchell here... Our mutual friend is asking if he can depend upon your co-operation?" 

Pressure on duly stressed people in an informational vacuum can have very strange effects in fomenting the kind of rash attempts at enlightenment that the guilty control freak needs in order to sleep at night, which can be all it takes for the stalking predator to get a single claw beyond the armour. The guilty control freak will always, personally or by agency, utilise means of going back to check that the clean up was thorough. 

And having thought that the sum of all police evidence existed in the PJ files, and having been shown time and again that new and undisclosed evidence exists which has brought both police forces out of stasis, with repeated demonstrations that the evidence is in Portugal, where the conspirator has least control, least access, I bet he's going absolutely bananas right about now. And I suspect the police know it. They've got their claws in an armadillo, and he's curled up tight, straining and rolling to make a break for it. They're waiting for the inevitablemoment when he releases himself for just a moment to try to find a more com fortable position to make the fight for survivaleasier...





Quite brilliant!  smilie 

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Tangled Web on 17.02.14 12:03

@Cristobell wrote:
@CynicAl wrote:Thinking about what I would do... 

If I was an investigator, and I suspected the neglectful parents, and I suspected they had accomplices in Portugal, who had been paid for their involvement, but otherwise had no loyalty, no honour, and were open to better offers or persuasion...

If I wanted to turn up the heat on a couple of extremely stressed control freaks who can't abide having no information to such a degree that they use a professional spin machine to saturate the media with comment, chum in the water, flailing around trying to catch a bite of real information... 

I'd identify my key suspects in Portugal - the complicit - and I'd make my presence known informally. But not until I'd tapped or monitored every possible line of communication between the two countries. Then I'd make repeated visits strung out over a long time. Maybe more informal chats, maybe turn the heat up on the PortoSuspects to uncomfortable levels. But long and drawn out. A combination of public appearances and secret missions. Keep all the suspects confused, anxious and guessing. Line in the water... Bait gently hanging... Patient... 

And wait for someone to make a call, to reach out... 

Will it be "McCann... I wasn't paid enough for this kind of heat... I need half a mill to get out of here and go hole up in Thailand." Will it be "Kate here... Has the fuzz bin rownd your gaff, like? Have ya herd anythin'? Worra they lookin' faw?" Will it be "Mitchell here... Our mutual friend is asking if he can depend upon your co-operation?" 

Pressure on duly stressed people in an informational vacuum can have very strange effects in fomenting the kind of rash attempts at enlightenment that the guilty control freak needs in order to sleep at night, which can be all it takes for the stalking predator to get a single claw beyond the armour. The guilty control freak will always, personally or by agency, utilise means of going back to check that the clean up was thorough. 

And having thought that the sum of all police evidence existed in the PJ files, and having been shown time and again that new and undisclosed evidence exists which has brought both police forces out of stasis, with repeated demonstrations that the evidence is in Portugal, where the conspirator has least control, least access, I bet he's going absolutely bananas right about now. And I suspect the police know it. They've got their claws in an armadillo, and he's curled up tight, straining and rolling to make a break for it. They're waiting for the inevitablemoment when he releases himself for just a moment to try to find a more com fortable position to make the fight for survivaleasier...





Quite brilliant!  smilie 

I so hope you're right CynicAl  pray2 

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by lj on 17.02.14 13:40

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Doug D wrote:Posting on McCannfiles today:
 
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html
 
By Nigel Moore
14 February 2014 11:30am
 
What the Evening Standard reports:
 
'Mr Hewitt said so far the Yard had not asked the Portugese (sic) authorities to interview or arrest any suspects.'
 
What the Press Association reports:
 
'Deputy Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt said that so far no requests to carry out interviews or arrests had been made.'
 
What the Daily Mirror reports:
 
'He said no requests for interviews or arrests have been made so far.'
 
What the Daily Mail reports:
 
'However, the Met Police has refused to comment on the reports - with Mr Hewitt claiming no requests for interviews or arrests have been made so far.'
 
What Martin Hewitt actually said (courtesy of Daily Express):
 
"Nobody has been arrested. We have not asked for anyone to be arrested. So far no one has been interviewed as a witness."
 
- In other words, Mr Hewitt does not rule out the possibility that interview requests have been made, only that 'so far' no interviews have been carried out.
 
This is consistent with the report in Jornal de Notícias, which states that the second letter of request - seemingly a request to interview certain people - has yet to be carried out.
 
………………………………………………….
 
Interestingly they ‘believe’ the Express, which ‘quotes’ Hewitt, whilst the Mail actually attributes some of the story to the Express (bit vague as to which bits though, can be interpreted as some or even all), even though the Express story sits below a ‘burglars’ headline.
 
There has however still been nothing posted about the third letter on the Met Police site, which states:
'Our press releases are usually published first on this web site. We also send our press releases by email to members of the Crime Reporters' Association (CRA) and to the newsdesks of, or appropriate news groups for, media organisations'. 
 
so I take it that Hewitt is talking unofficially (ie not a press release) which falls in line with the Mails 'However, the Met Police has refused to comment on the reports’
 
From personal experience (not in the police though), there would be hell to pay for attributable quotes such as these coming out without formal sanction by the Press Office (content, format, grammar, legal bits, etc – that’s what they’re paid for!) and I have no doubt that this must be the case within the Met. A senior officer such as Hewitt would certainly be aware of  procedural niceties and would not go out on a limb like this unless given the OK, which begs the question ‘Why?’
 
Is this a deliberate attempt to further muddy the waters between the nonsense we have been reading over the last few months and Redwood’s forthcoming ‘truth’.
Very interesting, Doug D, thanks very much for posting this.

There is a very simple comment to make on this. And a very simple question.

COMMENT: The Met Police could have made this perfectly straightforward by making a simple, plain one-paragraph statement e.g. by way of an update on their website, explaining that they've made a 3rd rogatory request, or whatever it was. Instead, as Nigel Moore has brought out so well, we have multiple versions in 5 newspapers.

QUESTION: Why didn't they?

He's listened to Gerry: confusion is good.
BTW that quote is not really Gerry's: it's a very often used one on all educational levels.

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http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by marconi on 17.02.14 13:42

@utahagen wrote:Marconi, what you outlined is plausible and I so hope you are correct.

Do you think eventually police in Portugal or the UK will announce that they think the McCanns were involved in Madeleine's disappearance? I can't even care anymore if they'll ever be brought to trial, but I long for the satisfaction of hearing someone in authority officially point his finger at them.

What do you think will happen within, say, three years?

Already in 2007, the PJ said that the child died in the apartment and the parents were involved in the concealing of the body.
My theory is that when the police confirm that, the McCanns will be at least in house arrest, also because they could escape to somewhere.  Besides I think the twins are at risk.


The parents are in a war of nerves, scared to death, and I wonder if they kept any of the Tapas friends.



"...three years?"   Good Lord, angels and saints, no!  This is going to be resolved very soon.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by lj on 17.02.14 13:50

@RIPM wrote:IMO the case is simple, it is now a contest of ego's, concern over loss of face, who shows sound judgement, about not looking stupid, by politicians, celebrities and the police.

So Portugal's finest police brains came to the conclusion M died in 5a, on the 3rd May 2007 and the Macs were involved.  But now we are expected to accept that SY's finest are telling them they are idiots.  M was abducted and the Macs and Tapas 7 are completely innocent and you the PJ need to spend millions more looking at anything other than the Macs.

There can only be two conclusions, the PJ and  Portuguese Government will never admit they got everything completely wrong, pride and national prestige will never allow it.

SY and the British government will never admit they are completely wrong and the Macs are prime suspects.  Pride and national prestige will never allow it.

So Redwood is the holder of the poisoned chalice.  While publicly stating SY are working with the PJ they are briefing the British media with stories highlighting how useless the PJ were and are by ignoring the reports of burglars etc etc.

Anyone who believes if ever there was a court case, the lies told by SY over creche/Tanner man would be glosssed over is imo simply deluded.

The end result will be, "the PJ will not help us in our enquiries", "they ignore our letters and due to their intransigence, we are unable to proceed any further", M was abducted by persons unknown.


Yep, exactly my opinion. It won't bring you much kudo's though.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by ultimaThule on 17.02.14 13:57

@lj wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:< snip >
There is a very simple comment to make on this. And a very simple question.

COMMENT: The Met Police could have made this perfectly straightforward by making a simple, plain one-paragraph statement e.g. by way of an update on their website, explaining that they've made a 3rd rogatory request, or whatever it was. Instead, as Nigel Moore has brought out so well, we have multiple versions in 5 newspapers.

QUESTION: Why didn't they?

He's listened to Gerry: confusion is good.
BTW that quote is not really Gerry's: it's a very often used one on all educational levels.
I'm glad you've pointed that out, lj, as, despite his inflated opinion of his intellect, the wee one doesn't have an original thought in his head.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Cristobell on 17.02.14 14:32

I don't think it is deluded to think Scotland Yard's Crecheman will cause problems at any future trial.  I have no personal experience of the police and hopefully Petermac can help out here, but from the cases I have studied, it seems to me that police can and do, go to extraordinary lengths when they are out to trap a perpetrator.  When they are dealing with criminal minds, straightforward question and answer sessions will get them nowhere, especially when the criminal minds have a higher than average education.  

I don't know how far police are permitted to go in any subterfuge - again, perhaps Petermac can give us a clue there. I don't know if anyone remembers the case of Colin Stagg.  It was believed he was the murderer of Rachel Nickell on Wimbledon Common in 1992.  There was a lengthy, convoluted investigation that involved in a 'honey trap'.  Colin Stagg was befriended by a policewoman and they entered into correspondence.  There was much controversy over the methods used by the police at the time, and ultimately, it transpired that the real killer was found.  

I cite this case to demonstrate that we actually know very little about the way in which the PJ and SY are investigating the case of missing Madeleine.  Whilst we may be experts on PJ files and the minutiae of the facts, we know nothing about the actual methods the police use.  

What we do know, is that the PJ have primacy, the crime was committed in Portugal.  We do know that SY visit Portugal, not the other way round.  We also know top officials from our own CPS travelled to Portugal, again the Portuguese AG did not come to London.  

If we think about the complexity of this case, we can appreciate the length of time it is taking (the Colin Stagg case took 10 years and was far simpler).  God forbid, things should drag on that long, and I don't believe it will.  Human nature dictates that the macho men (and women) of the PJ and SY will be eager to reach the finishing line, and I doubt the recent hotting up of mccann news has anything to do with random swarthy people.  

If the McCanns are brazen enough to claim their daughter was stolen in the night, they are brazen enough to blame gypsies, burglars and assorted low lives. In fact they have to, the abduction story is falling apart, it has been held up to public scrutiny via Crimewatch, and it failed the test. Droves of former believers saw the huge holes in the McCanns' version of events, and the efit looked just like Gerry!

I can understand why some are cynical, but logically, a whitewash is impossible. At some point there will have to be a trial. Putting a confused drug/alcohol addicted misfit in the dock charged with the Crime of the Century, just won't cut the mustard. Are 37 experienced murder detectives seriously going to put their careers and reputations at risk by perverting the course of justice?


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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 17.02.14 14:45

@Cristobell wrote:
If we think about the complexity of this case, we can appreciate the length of time it is taking (the Colin Stagg case took 10 years and was far simpler).  God forbid, things should drag on that long, and I don't believe it will.  Human nature dictates that the macho men (and women) of the PJ and SY will be eager to reach the finishing line, and I doubt the recent hotting up of mccann news has anything to do with random swarthy people.  

I have an insight into what the investigation team may be going through (if it isn't a white-wash), from my experience in a completely unrelated field - the games industry. Triple-A games can take up to 2 years to develop (sometimes more - I worked on one for 5 years). The closer you get to the deadline, the more paranoid you get about bugs in the code, stuff that hasn't been fixed. Eventually the publishers put their feet down and demand that the game goes out for release, but if it was up to the developers we would probably spend another year just making sure that stuff works like it's supposed to. I can imagine detectives doing the same thing, ensuring that all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed, until somebody above them orders them to make a move. The procrastination doesn't have to be about 'milking' the trips to Portugal etc. - the longer something takes to near completion, the more paranoid the team gets that they haven't covered all bases. At some point, someone in authority will order them to make arrests based on what they have, or drop the case.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by PeterMac on 17.02.14 15:03

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
I have an insight into what the investigation team may be going through . . .  I can imagine detectives doing the same thing, ensuring that all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed, until somebody above them orders them to make a move.  The procrastination doesn't have to be about 'milking' the trips to Portugal etc. - the longer something takes to near completion, the more paranoid the team gets that they haven't covered all bases.  At some point, someone in authority will order them to make arrests based on what they have, or drop the case.
Exactly.
Detectives preparing DPP files (as they used to be) were notorious for hanging on, and 'moving commas' trying to make the whole thing absolutely watertight.
One of the jobs of the DS or the DI is to impose deadlines.

The same thing happens with an MA or PhD dissertation. At some point you have to let it go.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by marconi on 17.02.14 15:06

@Cristobell wrote:I don't think it is deluded to think Scotland Yard's Crecheman will cause problems at any future trial.  I have no personal experience of the police and hopefully Petermac can help out here, but from the cases I have studied, it seems to me that police can and do, go to extraordinary lengths when they are out to trap a perpetrator.  When they are dealing with criminal minds, straightforward question and answer sessions will get them nowhere, especially when the criminal minds have a higher than average education.  

I don't know how far police are permitted to go in any subterfuge - again, perhaps Petermac can give us a clue there. I don't know if anyone remembers the case of Colin Stagg.  It was believed he was the murderer of Rachel Nickell on Wimbledon Common in 1992.  There was a lengthy, convoluted investigation that involved in a 'honey trap'.  Colin Stagg was befriended by a policewoman and they entered into correspondence.  There was much controversy over the methods used by the police at the time, and ultimately, it transpired that the real killer was found.  

I cite this case to demonstrate that we actually know very little about the way in which the PJ and SY are investigating the case of missing Madeleine.  Whilst we may be experts on PJ files and the minutiae of the facts, we know nothing about the actual methods the police use.  

What we do know, is that the PJ have primacy, the crime was committed in Portugal.  We do know that SY visit Portugal, not the other way round.  We also know top officials from our own CPS travelled to Portugal, again the Portuguese AG did not come to London.  

If we think about the complexity of this case, we can appreciate the length of time it is taking (the Colin Stagg case took 10 years and was far simpler).  God forbid, things should drag on that long, and I don't believe it will.  Human nature dictates that the macho men (and women) of the PJ and SY will be eager to reach the finishing line, and I doubt the recent hotting up of mccann news has anything to do with random swarthy people.  

If the McCanns are brazen enough to claim their daughter was stolen in the night, they are brazen enough to blame gypsies, burglars and assorted low lives.  In fact they have to, the abduction story is falling apart, it has been held up to public scrutiny via Crimewatch, and it failed the test.  Droves of former believers saw the huge holes in the McCanns' version of events, and the efit looked just like Gerry!

I can understand why some are cynical, but logically, a whitewash is impossible.  At some point there will have to be a trial.  Putting a confused drug/alcohol addicted misfit in the dock charged with the Crime of the Century, just won't cut the mustard.  Are 37 experienced murder detectives seriously going to put their careers and reputations at risk by perverting the course of justice?


 goodpost

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Cristobell on 17.02.14 15:12

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:
If we think about the complexity of this case, we can appreciate the length of time it is taking (the Colin Stagg case took 10 years and was far simpler).  God forbid, things should drag on that long, and I don't believe it will.  Human nature dictates that the macho men (and women) of the PJ and SY will be eager to reach the finishing line, and I doubt the recent hotting up of mccann news has anything to do with random swarthy people.  

I have an insight into what the investigation team may be going through (if it isn't a white-wash), from my experience in a completely unrelated field - the games industry.  Triple-A games can take up to 2 years to develop (sometimes more - I worked on one for 5 years).  The closer you get to the deadline, the more paranoid you get about bugs in the code, stuff that hasn't been fixed.  Eventually the publishers put their feet down and demand that the game goes out for release, but if it was up to the developers we would probably spend another year just making sure that stuff works like it's supposed to.  I can imagine detectives doing the same thing, ensuring that all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed, until somebody above them orders them to make a move.  The procrastination doesn't have to be about 'milking' the trips to Portugal etc. - the longer something takes to near completion, the more paranoid the team gets that they haven't covered all bases.  At some point, someone in authority will order them to make arrests based on what they have, or drop the case.


Good analogy WLBTS! Could be.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by marconi on 17.02.14 15:18

Perhaps the second letter is carried out and the police are keeping it secret for some reason.
Could it have been about the employees of the Ocean Club? Any nanny?


If the second one got lost, the Yard could have sent a copy.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by SixMillionQuid on 17.02.14 15:19

@Cristobell wrote:I can understand why some are cynical, but logically, a whitewash is impossible.  At some point there will have to be a trial.  Putting a confused drug/alcohol addicted misfit in the dock charged with the Crime of the Century, just won't cut the mustard.  Are 37 experienced murder detectives seriously going to put their careers and reputations at risk by perverting the course of justice?

The whitewash in the UK is taking place right now. The forensics has been ignored completely and they didn't bother with a proper reconstruction. Instead we got Crimewatch deconstruction which misrepresented what's in files. If the T9 are arrested in the future it wont be as a result of Operation Grange.

My understanding is that these officers were due to retire just before the review got the go ahead - once the investigation is done the great golf course becons. They most likely have signed a non disclosure agreement anyway so what ever happened behind closed doors dont expect to hear anything in the press.

____________________
"It is my belief that Scotland Yard was set out on a mission, not one to find out what happened to Madeleine McCann but to rewrite the history of the case in such a way that the majority of the public simply forgets the past." - The Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by mysterion on 17.02.14 15:23

I know exactly what you mean having worked in IT. Even more so in this case because if it is messed up the whole thing could collapse like a pack of cards and never resurrected. There may be no scope to "fix it" later with everything that is spinning around this case.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by aquila on 17.02.14 15:27

@Cristobell wrote:
@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:
If we think about the complexity of this case, we can appreciate the length of time it is taking (the Colin Stagg case took 10 years and was far simpler).  God forbid, things should drag on that long, and I don't believe it will.  Human nature dictates that the macho men (and women) of the PJ and SY will be eager to reach the finishing line, and I doubt the recent hotting up of mccann news has anything to do with random swarthy people.  

I have an insight into what the investigation team may be going through (if it isn't a white-wash), from my experience in a completely unrelated field - the games industry.  Triple-A games can take up to 2 years to develop (sometimes more - I worked on one for 5 years).  The closer you get to the deadline, the more paranoid you get about bugs in the code, stuff that hasn't been fixed.  Eventually the publishers put their feet down and demand that the game goes out for release, but if it was up to the developers we would probably spend another year just making sure that stuff works like it's supposed to.  I can imagine detectives doing the same thing, ensuring that all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed, until somebody above them orders them to make a move.  The procrastination doesn't have to be about 'milking' the trips to Portugal etc. - the longer something takes to near completion, the more paranoid the team gets that they haven't covered all bases.  At some point, someone in authority will order them to make arrests based on what they have, or drop the case.


Good analogy WLBTS!  Could be.
I'm glad that techno games people aren't police.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by marconi on 17.02.14 15:45

We have to trust both police. We haven't seen the McCanns for ages. To me more  than obvious that they are terrified on a corner otherwise we would have heard from them.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by marconi on 17.02.14 15:56

@SixMillionQuid wrote:


The whitewash in the UK is taking place right now. The forensics has been ignored completely and they didn't bother with a proper reconstruction. Instead we got Crimewatch deconstruction which misrepresented what's in files. If the T9 are arrested in the future it wont be as a result of Operation Grange.

My understanding is that these officers were due to retire just before the review got the go ahead - once the investigation is done the great golf course becons. They most likely have signed a non disclosure agreement anyway so what ever happened behind closed doors dont expect to hear anything in the press.
 Why so negative?  None of us has any notion of what is going on. How do you come to the idea of a signed non disclose agreement?  The time that the McCanns had any power is gone, long ago.
The police know what they are doing.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Cristobell on 17.02.14 15:57

@SixMillionQuid wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:I can understand why some are cynical, but logically, a whitewash is impossible.  At some point there will have to be a trial.  Putting a confused drug/alcohol addicted misfit in the dock charged with the Crime of the Century, just won't cut the mustard.  Are 37 experienced murder detectives seriously going to put their careers and reputations at risk by perverting the course of justice?

The whitewash in the UK is taking place right now. The forensics has been ignored completely and they didn't bother with a proper reconstruction. Instead we got Crimewatch deconstruction which misrepresented what's in files. If the T9 are arrested in the future it wont be as a result of Operation Grange.

My understanding is that these officers were due to retire just before the review got the go ahead - once the investigation is done the great golf course becons. They most likely have signed a non disclosure agreement anyway so what ever happened behind closed doors dont expect to hear anything in the press.





Oooh that is very cynical SixMillion, especially the rather sweeping statement that the forensics have been completely ignored.  We have absolutely no way of knowing if it has.  I personally doubt it very much, remember both the PJ and SY are all too well aware of the sensational headlines that have accompanied this case since news of Madeleine's disappearance first broke. They have very good reason to keep their cards close to their chests. The dogs evidence will appear in ANY trial - be it a swarthy burglar in the dock, or the McCanns themselves.  It is global knowledge that a cadaver and a blood dog alerted only to McCann possessions, nobody is going to forget that - ever, and I think it naive to believe they will.  Anyone charged with Madeleine's disappearance will cite the dogs evidence in their defence, other than those who could be incriminated by it, of course.

As for the idea that the 37 detectives will be content to tar their names and reputations in order to play golf in the sun - again, I think you are being very cynical.  When we leave this world, we leave behind our reputations and that is probably the only thing we have any control over.  Who wants to be remembered as a bent cop?  These detectives are husbands, fathers and grandfathers, most of them are in the job because they genuinely care for the victims they are charged to protect.  Look at Goncalo Amaral.  Here is a detective who stills pay for a mass each year for the tragic and forgotten Joana Cipriano.  DCI Redwood has said publicly, he is fighting for Madeleine and I believe him.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Guest on 17.02.14 16:01

@Cristobell wrote:  Are 37 experienced murder detectives seriously going to put their careers and reputations at risk by perverting the course of justice?


It's well worth quoting that bit. There are thirty-seven people working on this. That is a LOT of resource to bring to bear, and they've been at it a long time. To me, the ONLY justification for them taking so long to produce anything tangible is that they are dealing with a criminal conspiracy involving many dozens of people. As it happens, I think that is the case.

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