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Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Newintown on 16.02.14 18:37

candyfloss wrote:I thought that was a mirror (not window partition)  as there was a chest of drawers there originally I think, and it was over that.

Yes, you could be right having looked at the photos again.  I've just added a link to the photos.

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Clocker on 16.02.14 19:11

@worriedmum wrote:Just looking at the picture above again,I am surprised Matt didn't say ' I thought she was in the bed under the window'.
To paraphrase Kate,''I looked at the bed and I couldn't quite make it out, was that the bedding or was that Madeleine..''

Matt would have seen bedding rumpled and his view obscured by two cots.

SO

I repeat, AT WHAT POINT DID MATT KNOW WHICH BED MADELEINE WAS SLEEPING IN?

Also,
HOW COULD MATT 'MAKE OUT THE TWINS BREATHING' BUT KATE COULDN'T TELL IF IT WAS' MADELEINE OR THE COVERS'? 

The bed looks tidier on other pictures, with the covers neatly folded back. Which would fit in with Gerry's version of Madeleine lying on top of the covers?
Mathew states he never saw M.  The following is in his statement with LP.

"So I just sort of went towards the doorway, I didn't step over the threshold, I didn't see Madeleine and I didn't check, I turned round and came back out,"


Rachel, said he never saw M. The following is in her statement with LP. 


"he didn’t put his head round the door to see if Madeleine was in her bed, but he said he did wonder where she slept, erm poked his head, well you know kind of looked into Gerry and Kate’s room, just saw there was a double bed there, so you know, assumed they were all in together or, I mean I think he knew that they were all in together, erm but he didn’t actually look to see whether Madeleine was there or not”.


Yet he saw the bed by the window was empty, it was also unmade, I wonder why he didn't presume that was M's and wondered where she was? Because he did wonder where she slept because he looked in K and G's room but saw she wasn't there. 


He also says later in his statement: 


Reply "No, no, we've talked about that before, I didn't smell anything, I mean, I could see the children breathing, but I didn't clock it as abnormal, erm, it'd be completely to speculate to say whether their breathing was fast or, I couldn't say, I mean, they were breathing and that's what, you know, and that was what I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh".


If that is what he was checking i wonder why he didn't check to see if M was breathing? 

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Guest on 16.02.14 19:17

He didn't CLOCK their breathing as abnormal. This is what the man himself declares!

So: how did he do the clocking?

Did he use his watch, checking their breathing a/o their heartbeats?

Why did he clock?

Did all the other Tapas clock all the other children including their own?

No?

Why not?

Why were the McCann twins an exception?

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Hobs on 16.02.14 20:00

Given the state of the bedding on the bed under the window why did they not claim that was the bed Maddie was sleeping in before she was abducted? That would have been far more believable as an abduction from the bedroom than the immaculately made up bed by the door?

I wonder what would have been founc on the sheets on the messy bed that wasn't found on the neat and tidy bed?

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by stillsloppingout on 16.02.14 20:13

@Clocker wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:Just looking at the picture above again,I am surprised Matt didn't say ' I thought she was in the bed under the window'.
To paraphrase Kate,''I looked at the bed and I couldn't quite make it out, was that the bedding or was that Madeleine..''

Matt would have seen bedding rumpled and his view obscured by two cots.

SO

I repeat, AT WHAT POINT DID MATT KNOW WHICH BED MADELEINE WAS SLEEPING IN?

Also,
HOW COULD MATT 'MAKE OUT THE TWINS BREATHING' BUT KATE COULDN'T TELL IF IT WAS' MADELEINE OR THE COVERS'? 

The bed looks tidier on other pictures, with the covers neatly folded back. Which would fit in with Gerry's version of Madeleine lying on top of the covers?
Mathew states he never saw M.  The following is in his statement with LP.

"So I just sort of went towards the doorway, I didn't step over the threshold, I didn't see Madeleine and I didn't check, I turned round and came back out,"


Rachel, said he never saw M. The following is in her statement with LP. 


"he didn’t put his head round the door to see if Madeleine was in her bed, but he said he did wonder where she slept, erm poked his head, well you know kind of looked into Gerry and Kate’s room, just saw there was a double bed there, so you know, assumed they were all in together or, I mean I think he knew that they were all in together, erm but he didn’t actually look to see whether Madeleine was there or not”.


Yet he saw the bed by the window was empty, it was also unmade, I wonder why he didn't presume that was M's and wondered where she was? Because he did wonder where she slept because he looked in K and G's room but saw she wasn't there. 


He also says later in his statement: 


Reply "No, no, we've talked about that before, I didn't smell anything, I mean, I could see the children breathing, but I didn't clock it as abnormal, erm, it'd be completely to speculate to say whether their breathing was fast or, I couldn't say, I mean, they were breathing and that's what, you know, and that was what I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh".


If that is what he was checking i wonder why he didn't check to see if M was breathing? 
Spoke once to the only snapper who has ever took pics in that room. ex screws . He said could not believe how small the room actually is ,and he also changed his opinion re this case based on that fact. "  this has been said a few times too
the " trouble is every body knows  they did It, it's just proving it "

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by aquila on 16.02.14 20:25

2 beds, one headboard - perhaps the burglars nicked a headboard.

Seriously, it's below bog standard accommodation (compare it with the super duper living area in the Met Crimewatch programme (UK production).

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Doug D on 16.02.14 20:35

Aquila,

One headboard is behind the chest of drawers, the other headboard is obvious. They have moved 'Maddies' bed against the wall & swopped the chest of drawers over.

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by ultimaThule on 16.02.14 20:37

@aquila wrote:2 beds, one headboard - perhaps the burglars nicked a headboard.

Seriously, it's below bog standard accommodation (compare it with the super duper living area in the Met Crimewatch programme (UK production).
Before the travel cots were placed in the room, it contained 2 single beds separated by a small bedside chest of drawers and positioned under the headboards which are fixed to the wall. 

The chest of drawers shown partially hiding one of the headboards was situated under the mirror which is fixed to the wall against which one of the single beds has been pushed, with the other bed having been moved to under the window which opens on to the front of the apartment.

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by aquila on 16.02.14 20:42

@ultimaThule wrote:
@aquila wrote:2 beds, one headboard - perhaps the burglars nicked a headboard.

Seriously, it's below bog standard accommodation (compare it with the super duper living area in the Met Crimewatch programme (UK production).
Before the travel cots were placed in the room, it contained 2 single beds separated by a small bedside chest of drawers and positioned under the headboards which are fixed to the wall. 

The chest of drawers shown partially hiding one of the headboards was situated under the mirror which is fixed to the wall against which one of the single beds has been pushed, with the other bed having been moved to under the window which opens on to the front of the apartment.
Aaah, thanks Doug D and uT.

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Guest on 16.02.14 20:53

@stillsloppingout wrote:
@Clocker wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:Just looking at the picture above again,I am surprised Matt didn't say ' I thought she was in the bed under the window'.
To paraphrase Kate,''I looked at the bed and I couldn't quite make it out, was that the bedding or was that Madeleine..''

Matt would have seen bedding rumpled and his view obscured by two cots.

SO

I repeat, AT WHAT POINT DID MATT KNOW WHICH BED MADELEINE WAS SLEEPING IN?

Also,
HOW COULD MATT 'MAKE OUT THE TWINS BREATHING' BUT KATE COULDN'T TELL IF IT WAS' MADELEINE OR THE COVERS'? 

The bed looks tidier on other pictures, with the covers neatly folded back. Which would fit in with Gerry's version of Madeleine lying on top of the covers?
Mathew states he never saw M.  The following is in his statement with LP.

"So I just sort of went towards the doorway, I didn't step over the threshold, I didn't see Madeleine and I didn't check, I turned round and came back out,"


Rachel, said he never saw M. The following is in her statement with LP. 


"he didn’t put his head round the door to see if Madeleine was in her bed, but he said he did wonder where she slept, erm poked his head, well you know kind of looked into Gerry and Kate’s room, just saw there was a double bed there, so you know, assumed they were all in together or, I mean I think he knew that they were all in together, erm but he didn’t actually look to see whether Madeleine was there or not”.


Yet he saw the bed by the window was empty, it was also unmade, I wonder why he didn't presume that was M's and wondered where she was? Because he did wonder where she slept because he looked in K and G's room but saw she wasn't there. 


He also says later in his statement: 


Reply "No, no, we've talked about that before, I didn't smell anything, I mean, I could see the children breathing, but I didn't clock it as abnormal, erm, it'd be completely to speculate to say whether their breathing was fast or, I couldn't say, I mean, they were breathing and that's what, you know, and that was what I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh".


If that is what he was checking i wonder why he didn't check to see if M was breathing? 
Spoke once to the only snapper who has ever took pics in that room. ex screws . He said could not believe how small the room actually is ,and he also changed his opinion re this case based on that fact. "  this has been said a few times too
the " trouble is every body knows  they did It, it's just proving it "

Learning so much here; now knowing what a snapper is already: please what is: 'ex screws" ?

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Woofer on 16.02.14 20:55

Screws = prison warders

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by aquila on 16.02.14 20:59

@Woofer wrote:Screws = prison warders
My understanding of 'screws' in this context was 'News of the Screws' which was 'News of the World'.

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by ultimaThule on 16.02.14 21:01

You're welcome, aquila.

If I'd re-arranged the beds to accomodate 2 travel cots, I'd have moved the bedside cabinet and pushed them both to the window wall while leaving the chest of drawers in it's original position as this would have taken far less effort and provided more room at the point of access. 

This arrangement would have also enabled the 3 children to sleep together as a holiday treat and, if necessary, a single cot could have been used to prevent one or t'other of them falling out of the bed.   As there were no stairs to worry about, it would have been an ideal time to get the twins accustomed to the transition which they were very soon to make at the rented villa.

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Woofer on 16.02.14 21:08

@aquila wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Screws = prison warders
My understanding of 'screws' in this context was 'News of the Screws' which was 'News of the World'.

Oh - could be - maybe my understanding was determined by the poster`s name being `stillslopingout`  titter

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by aquila on 16.02.14 21:12

@Woofer wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Screws = prison warders
My understanding of 'screws' in this context was 'News of the Screws' which was 'News of the World'.

Oh - could be - maybe my understanding was determined by the poster`s name being `stillslopingout`  titter
who knows Woofer, it's hearsay anyway.

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Guest on 16.02.14 21:13

@aquila wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Screws = prison warders
My understanding of 'screws' in this context was 'News of the Screws' which was 'News of the World'.

Of the Shrew(s)?

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Clocker on 16.02.14 21:25

@aquila wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Screws = prison warders
My understanding of 'screws' in this context was 'News of the Screws' which was 'News of the World'.

Screws = northern slang for police  big grin

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by brixham on 16.02.14 21:26

It has always struck me as strange that MO checks on the children to the degree that he can discern that the twins are breathing ( to quote –“I mean, they were breathing and that's what, you know, and that was what I was there to check”) but does not even know if Maddie is present.

But if you look again at what he actually says, he says he was there to check if the twins were breathing – not to check if they were there.

So a possible scenario could be that GM is taking such a long time with his 9.05 check that when MO gets up to check at 9.30, KM asks him to check if all is OK.  On arrival at 5a MO finds a distraught GM with Maddie, injured or worse. A panicked  GM asks MO to check if the twins are breathing.

Only my opinion.

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by ultimaThule on 16.02.14 21:49

Really, Brixham?

And then what happens?  Maddie dies and a distraught Gerry carries her corpse out into the night in order to conceal it?  Why would he do that?

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Woofer on 16.02.14 21:53

@brixham wrote:It has always struck me as strange that MO checks on the children to the degree that he can discern that the twins are breathing ( to quote –“I mean, they were breathing and that's what, you know, and that was what I was there to check”) but does not even know if Maddie is present.

But if you look again at what he actually says, he says he was there to check if the twins were breathing – not to check if they were there.

So a possible scenario could be that GM is taking such a long time with his 9.05 check that when MO gets up to check at 9.30, KM asks him to check if all is OK.  On arrival at 5a MO finds a distraught GM with Maddie, injured or worse. A panicked  GM asks MO to check if the twins are breathing.

Only my opinion.

Good one Brixham ..........  but need to get round the possibility that GM was in the road outside at around 9.15 when Jane and Jeremy saw him ......  unless GM was only on his way into the flat at 9.15 and not coming out.

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Guest on 16.02.14 21:55

@ultimaThule wrote:Really, Brixham?

And then what happens?  Maddie dies and a distraught Gerry carries her corpse out into the night in order to conceal it?  Why would he do that?

What independent proof do we have that GM joined the Tapas at the Great Round Table at all, on May 3rd?

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by ultimaThule on 16.02.14 22:03

I seem to recall that there are independent witnesses who put both of the McCanns at the great square table shortly after 8pm on the night of 3 May 2007 and that Gerry initiated a conversation with one or other of them.

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by brixham on 16.02.14 22:09

@Woofer wrote:
@brixham wrote:It has always struck me as strange that MO checks on the children to the degree that he can discern that the twins are breathing ( to quote –“I mean, they were breathing and that's what, you know, and that was what I was there to check”) but does not even know if Maddie is present.

But if you look again at what he actually says, he says he was there to check if the twins were breathing – not to check if they were there.

So a possible scenario could be that GM is taking such a long time with his 9.05 check that when MO gets up to check at 9.30, KM asks him to check if all is OK.  On arrival at 5a MO finds a distraught GM with Maddie, injured or worse. A panicked  GM asks MO to check if the twins are breathing.

Only my opinion.

Good one Brixham ..........  but need to get round the possibility that GM was in the road outside at around 9.15 when Jane and Jeremy saw him ......  unless GM was only on his way into the flat at 9.15 and not coming out.
Yes Woofer he may have been on his way in.  I am just trying to get my head around how someone can go to check on 3 kids, report that two of them are breathing, in fact noticing that they are breathing 'normally', but does not even look for the other child. Utter rubbish.  There is something really not right here.

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Guest on 16.02.14 22:11

We've been here before, but allow me to repeat: WHY would a mother allow / accept  a "stranger" to her children [as MO himself stated ; he didn't know them very well - or at all] to check on them? He might have frightened them. And then only could run back to Tapas to alert the parents to come and calm them again ...

ETA and if memory serves me [but I would to check on that], MO supposedly offered to check on Madeleine [not: the children] ...

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Re: Sunday Express 9 Feb 2014 - MADELEINE - There REALLY WAS a COVER-UP

Post by Doug D on 16.02.14 22:12

brixham,
 
For what it's worth, MO says 'that five minutes later GM came back to the group in the restaurant' (so about 9.10). Oh s***, what happened to his chat with Jez then? You just can't get the staff nowadays.

Portia,

'independent proof'? Them who must be believed have spoken.

Matthew Oldfield's statement 4th May:
 
'That Gerry would have entered  into his apartment and that he checked to make sure that Madeleine and the twins were sleeping in their bedroom, where it was quite dark. The bedroom door was left open [ajar]. That five minutes later, Gerry came back to the group in the restaurant'.
 
Nice of him to know what Gerry did at his 9.05 check. It was quite dark. The bedroom door was left open. ?????? How could you give a statement on someone else's behalf? Rachel went on to do the same thing for him!
 
'At around 9.25pm, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. That he couldn't see the bed occupied by Madeleine, but as it was all quiet, he deduced that she was sleeping. That the light was not from an artificial source inside the apartment, but perhaps something coming from outside through the bedroom window. That it seemed to him that the shutters of the Master bedroom window were open without knowing if the window was also open……….
……… The couple's bedroom has a window which is visible from the restaurant. The children's bedroom windows look out on the road……….
 
Matthew Oldfield 10th May 2007
   
‘That he did not enter the bedroom where MBM and the twins were sleeping. He recalls that the bedroom door was half open, making an angle of 50 degrees. He does not know how far away he was from the bedroom door....................
 
‘Asked, he relates that when he entered the apartment, from memory, he did not approach MBM's bedroom therefore cannot provide any details about its condition.’
 
If there was enough light in the room to see that the twins were breathing, without entering the room, (through the solid end of the right hand cot), the disheveled bed under the window would have been obvious, giving rise to anybody checking the kids, concern that M was not in bed. Had she fallen out? Woken & wandered to the bathroom, parents bed etc?
You would have to go into the room to see what had happened and look for her.
He would not have known that she was allegedly in the bed immediately to the left.
 
He does not know how far away he was from the bedroom door!!!!!!!!!
 
It also seemed to him that the shutters of the master bedroom window were open, as opposed to the children’s bedroom windows to which he also refers.
 
As for ‘not approaching MBM’s bedroom’ who knows? Were the twins (or one of them) in the front bedroom, in the cot as reported by the maid on the Wednesday morning? What does he mean by MBM's bedroom?
 
Then we come to Version 3, back in Leicester with the ‘technical problems’.

Then you come to the bewk and KM's admission that she was only pulling the door to, so she didn't intend checking either.
 
You just couldn’t make this nonsense up, could you????????

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