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The McCanns didn't check

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 02.02.14 10:09

Hi Bobby18, not sure yet how to include your own post in my reply, still getting used to becoming a full member.

I have gone back and forward on whether MBM died on the evening of the 3rd or beforehand. A few months ago I was in agreement with you and with Pat Browns simplistic view. I am now swayed to death occurring prior to the 3rd because;

1. Existence of cadaver scent in several places in the apartment (suggesting movement and temporary storage)
2. The apartment being cleaned/sanitised prior to the arrival of the police
3. The 'last photo' being blatantly photo shopped (this was a recent discovery for me)
4. The cresh records being questionable
5. The circumstances and duration and of the meal on the 3rd
6. Smithman could have chosen to avoid meeting the smiths, and so wanted to be seen. An alternative sleepy blonde child being available as a decoy
7. Timing of GM phone silence prior to the 3rd, which I find very suspicious.

Overall, I feel that death before the 3rd fits events and statements better than a genuine panic situation on the evening. I could be wrong of course, and this forum is a great place to exchange theories.

I do believe the truth will out, and given recent events, soon. Portugal will have had a good reason to re-open their investigation.

IMO of course

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by PeterMac on 02.02.14 10:14

@Jayneykul wrote:If that is correct about smith man and GM is Smithman why was there no evidence of cadaverine on his clothing
Because he had weeks, if not months to dispose of it. Beige trousers with buttons disappeared the first night from the bed, for example.
The mystery to me is why Kate hung onto all her stuff.
But that may be a male / female thing - chucking out favourite items

But IF SY are now looking for 3 Burglars / 3 Ocean Club employees / three Kings of Orient,
THEN Smithman has also by implication been trashed.
No one who knew the resort and had planned their getaway would take that route.
And with the trashing of Smithman, THEN also the trashing of the 10pm timeline.
So we now have no timeline, and no suspects.

Well done DCI Redwood

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by canada12 on 02.02.14 10:17

Perhaps GM got rid of his clothing because he knew he'd been seen in it (planned or otherwise), and the idea of the scent of cadaverine didn't even enter into it. Thus KH kept her clothing, not realizing the scent would be on it.

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by suep on 02.02.14 10:37

@Carrry On Doctor wrote:Hi Bobby18, not sure yet how to include your own post in my reply, still getting used to becoming a full member.

I have gone back and forward on whether MBM died on the evening of the 3rd or beforehand. A few months ago I was in agreement with you and with Pat Browns simplistic view. I am now swayed to death occurring prior to the 3rd because;

1. Existence of cadaver scent in several places in the apartment (suggesting movement and temporary storage)
2. The apartment being cleaned/sanitised prior to the arrival of the police
3. The 'last photo' being blatantly photo shopped (this was a recent discovery for me)
4. The cresh records being questionable
5. The circumstances and duration and of the meal on the 3rd
6. Smithman could have chosen to avoid meeting the smiths, and so wanted to be seen. An alternative sleepy blonde child being available as a decoy
7. Timing of GM phone silence prior to the 3rd, which I find very suspicious.

Overall, I feel that death before the 3rd fits events and statements better than a genuine panic situation on the evening. I could be wrong of course, and this forum is a great place to exchange theories.

I do believe the truth will out, and given recent events, soon. Portugal will have had a good reason to re-open their investigation.

IMO of course

I agree with the above points, Carry on Doctor. I'd also add my opinion that there's a high probability that the twins were sedated and the deletion of phone records by both McCanns. The absence of any photographs of the Tapas 9 at dinner could also be due to deletion because those photographs may have proved certain members were at the table when they said they were off checking children.

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 02.02.14 10:39

@tigger wrote:But... If the block booking at the Tapas is in doubt, then  the checking is off the table as well.
If the block booking was one of the excuses MW corroborated  (see the Tapas sheets topic)  then there was only the Thursday night  performance.
It does seem strange to me that the Tapas could only seat 20  and supplied free meals. not just Tapas meals as imo that doesn't  include grilled steak and so on.
If it was an extra facility and not included in the price it makes more sense.

Then there was the occasion soon after 3/5 when MW allowed Gerry free drinks and he ordered 14 bottles of wine iirc.
So clearly the wine wasn't free?
Whereas Chaplins had a  menu of 'normal' meals and Happy Hour with half price drinks.

Amaral wanted to see photographs taken at night,  but there were none despite the group having cameras with them on Thursday night.  No night photos at all, not from a single night. Amaral found it strange..



I hope the investigators realised it is easy to recover deleted pictures from digital camera memory sticks.

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by mysterion on 02.02.14 10:52

The Tapas 9 - I have never seen a group photograph. If none exists then that is very odd for a group family holiday. Surely that would be the most important memory of all. It just makes me wonder if one of that group wasn`t who he/she claims to be so photographic evidence had to be deleted. Might also explain the political follow up to the disappearance.

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 02.02.14 11:09

Totally agree mysterion, the lack of group photos speaks volumes. You would expect many photographs of the children, particularly together in their different groups and activities. If mundane holiday activity such as travelling on a bus is worthy of video recording, then surely there would be plenty more to follow. Unless something happened to put a damper on things and put everyone on ..........and before the 3rd.

IMO of course.

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by Carrry On Doctor on 02.02.14 11:10

on edge

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by Guest on 02.02.14 11:22

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HOLIDAY-PHOTOS-LIST.htm

The Paynes certainly took many photos, including some with several members of the group, but unfortunately most of them are indecipherable online.

The very last photo (155, though it doesn't say so) is interesting as it purports to include Madeleine.

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by suzyjohnson on 02.02.14 11:45

@bobby18 wrote:
I just base this on my strong belief that Smithman had Madeleine and the apparently panicky manner of his actions according to statements given suggest the removal of MBM was unplanned e.g. no transport, light clothing, open(ish) streets 

Most importantly and again IMO, with the emphasis placed by SY to this point, SY also believe Smithman to be the perpretator.

Tiny: 'I also think this,a  panic removal of Madeleine'

Me too, Tiny and Bobby18

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by tigger on 02.02.14 11:51

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HOLIDAY-PHOTOS-LIST.htm

The Paynes certainly took many photos, including some with several members of the group, but unfortunately most of them are indecipherable online.

The very last photo (155, though it doesn't say so) is interesting as it purports to include Madeleine.

That's fine nfwtd, you can purport all you like, Gerry said it's allowed.  laughat 

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by Monty Heck on 02.02.14 12:02

@mysterion wrote:MO did the last check before the great announcement by KM. Is there any statement made about KM & GM's conversation with MO at that time. I would imagine that a lot of parent`s would have wrongly lashed out verbally, out of panic.
This one stands out among the red flags in the published accounts.  A parent has checked children; all well.  Fifteen minutes later a friend offers to check children and reports all well.  Thirty minutes later the other parent checks children and one now missing.  Following this discovery friend admits to not having actually seen child now missing during his check.  Reaction of parents to revelation - none. 

In spite of the howling despair/anger/rage/vitriol directed at an upstairs neighbour and the GNR reported during the immediate aftermath, apparently not a word of reproach to the hapless MO.

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by Guest on 02.02.14 12:04

....and of course nothing said to Jane Tanner about the delay in imparting the news of what appeared to be a crucial sighting.

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by pennylane on 02.02.14 12:06

@suzyjohnson wrote:
@bobby18 wrote:
I just base this on my strong belief that Smithman had Madeleine and the apparently panicky manner of his actions according to statements given suggest the removal of MBM was unplanned e.g. no transport, light clothing, open(ish) streets 

Most importantly and again IMO, with the emphasis placed by SY to this point, SY also believe Smithman to be the perpretator.

Tiny: 'I also think this,a  panic removal of Madeleine'

Me too, Tiny and Bobby18
Me three! hello

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by ultimaThule on 02.02.14 12:09

Three of you?  Have you thought of auditioning for the Scottish play?  big grin

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by pennylane on 02.02.14 12:24

@ultimaThule wrote:Three of you?  Have you thought of auditioning for the Scottish play?  big grin

No way.... the McCann's have put me off staged events for the rest of my life!

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by ultimaThule on 02.02.14 12:37

Oh what a shame, penny.  I've always enjoyed a good pantomime and the McCanns' amateur performance has provided lots of opportunity for audience participation of the 'o no s/he didn't, o yes s/he did' variety, albeit after the event     yes

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by Monty Heck on 02.02.14 13:06

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:....and of course nothing said to Jane Tanner about the delay in imparting the news of what appeared to be a crucial sighting.
Yes, not one but two alleged major blunders by the inner circle, either or both of which if reported and in good time could have made all the difference to the outcome, if this were a case of abduction. And yet, amid the reported hysterical behavioiur of the McCs in the immedaite aftermath, nor subsequently, was a cross word or accusation directed at either friend.  This is incredibly difficult to accept particularly when so much vitriol was directed towards others in the vicinity which, although unpleasant seems fairly normal as feelings running high would be directed at anyone percieved as offending in even any insignificant way.  Yet towards those who allegedly did misdirect the McCs, markedly increasing the abuctor's getaway time prior to discovery all was mild and amicable?  The contrast in behaviour is stark indeed but like so many things has never been explained.

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by bobbin on 02.02.14 13:21

@PeterMac wrote:
@Jayneykul wrote:If that is correct about smith man and GM is Smithman why was there no evidence of cadaverine on his clothing
Because he had weeks, if not months to dispose of it. Beige trousers with buttons disappeared the first night from the bed, for example.
The mystery to me is why Kate hung onto all her stuff.
But that may be a male / female thing - chucking out favourite items

But IF SY are now looking for 3 Burglars / 3 Ocean Club employees / three Kings of Orient,
THEN Smithman has also by implication been trashed.
No one who knew the resort and had planned their getaway would take that route.
And with the trashing of Smithman, THEN also the trashing of the 10pm timeline.
So we now have no timeline, and no suspects.

Well done DCI Redwood

I believe the button trousers were seen in later (Gerry) photos, around PdL, surrounded by lots of journos etc., at least for a while afterwards. Then not seen anymore, certainly not around 'doggie visit' time.
With Kate washing cuddle cat, and (hopefully) also her own trousers several times at least, she obviously and incorrectly thought that the washing would be enough to get rid of cadavour odour.
These very clever McCs are a figment of their own clever imagination, they are not that clever at all...ask the dogs, Sandra.  lol4  lol4 
True, they were not seen after those few pictures but in terms of where it leaves us, with Smithman in the trash-can, is with Gerry and Kate's word only, that (a) Madeleine was alive on 3rd (b) that she was 'abducted'.
Given the cast-iron metal cladding of the McCs being more riddled with lies than the holes in a sieve, the thought of taking their word for anything is so funny it's not funny at all.

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by suzyjohnson on 02.02.14 13:29

@pennylane wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@bobby18 wrote:
I just base this on my strong belief that Smithman had Madeleine and the apparently panicky manner of his actions according to statements given suggest the removal of MBM was unplanned e.g. no transport, light clothing, open(ish) streets 

Most importantly and again IMO, with the emphasis placed by SY to this point, SY also believe Smithman to be the perpretator.

Tiny: 'I also think this,a  panic removal of Madeleine'

Me too, Tiny and Bobby18
Me three! hello
You, four, Penny Lane

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by suzyjohnson on 02.02.14 13:38

@Monty Heck wrote:
@mysterion wrote:MO did the last check before the great announcement by KM. Is there any statement made about KM & GM's conversation with MO at that time. I would imagine that a lot of parent`s would have wrongly lashed out verbally, out of panic.
This one stands out among the red flags in the published accounts.  A parent has checked children; all well.  Fifteen minutes later a friend offers to check children and reports all well.  Thirty minutes later the other parent checks children and one now missing. 

You might think that KM's first questions upon running back to the tapas would be to Matthew, asking 'Where's my daughter?' 'Was she asleep when you saw her?' 'Did you see anything unusual?' Etc. 

As far as I know, it isn't in KM's statements or MO's statements that she ever asked.

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by tiny on 02.02.14 13:43

@bobby18 wrote:
@Carrry On Doctor wrote:The twins may have been checked routinely on the evening of the 3rd, them having been sedated in order that they would sleep through;

1. the planned removal of MBM (having died prior to the 3rd), and
2. the expected chaos of the simulated abduction.

All IMO.
I just base this on my strong belief that Smithman had Madeleine and the apparently panicky manner of his actions according to statements given suggest the removal of MBM was unplanned e.g. no transport, light clothing, open(ish) streets as a means of excess.

Most importantly and again IMO, with the emphasis placed by SY to this point, SY also believe Smithman to be the perpretator.

but not by burglars

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by pennylane on 02.02.14 13:48

@suzyjohnson wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@bobby18 wrote:
I just base this on my strong belief that Smithman had Madeleine and the apparently panicky manner of his actions according to statements given suggest the removal of MBM was unplanned e.g. no transport, light clothing, open(ish) streets 

Most importantly and again IMO, with the emphasis placed by SY to this point, SY also believe Smithman to be the perpretator.

Tiny: 'I also think this,a  panic removal of Madeleine'

Me too, Tiny and Bobby18
Me three! hello
You, four, Penny Lane
 Oh yes, duh! laughat

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by Monty Heck on 02.02.14 13:53

@suzyjohnson wrote:
@Monty Heck wrote:
@mysterion wrote:MO did the last check before the great announcement by KM. Is there any statement made about KM & GM's conversation with MO at that time. I would imagine that a lot of parent`s would have wrongly lashed out verbally, out of panic.
This one stands out among the red flags in the published accounts.  A parent has checked children; all well.  Fifteen minutes later a friend offers to check children and reports all well.  Thirty minutes later the other parent checks children and one now missing. 

You might think that KM's first questions upon running back to the tapas would be to Matthew, asking 'Where's my daughter?' 'Was she asleep when you saw her?' 'Did you see anything unusual?' Etc. 

As far as I know, it isn't in KM's statements or MO's statements that she ever asked.
Exactly. That there was no record of any demand from K or G for more information from MO in the statements of either, or indeed any of the T9 leaves quite a black hole in the accounts given.  No information sought, no recriminations aired in the heat of the moment - going by the lack of reaction from the McCs it was almost as if MO had never set foot in 5A that night.

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Re: The McCanns didn't check

Post by bobby18 on 02.02.14 13:59

@tiny wrote:
@bobby18 wrote:
@Carrry On Doctor wrote:The twins may have been checked routinely on the evening of the 3rd, them having been sedated in order that they would sleep through;

1. the planned removal of MBM (having died prior to the 3rd), and
2. the expected chaos of the simulated abduction.

All IMO.
I just base this on my strong belief that Smithman had Madeleine and the apparently panicky manner of his actions according to statements given suggest the removal of MBM was unplanned e.g. no transport, light clothing, open(ish) streets as a means of excess.

Most importantly and again IMO, with the emphasis placed by SY to this point, SY also believe Smithman to be the perpretator.

but not by burglars
Absolutely, tiny, I firmly believe that Smithman is the same person as the general consensus believe on this forum.

The only things that alleged burglars would leave with would be fraught nerves.

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