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The Barn

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Re: The Barn

Post by sharonl on 02.02.14 10:14

The alleged visit to the barn/farmhouse took place on June 10 2007.  It appears that the building was located 28Km SE of Praia Da Luz, there were reports of an old mine nearby. 

Can anyone locate this building?

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Re: The Barn

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 02.02.14 10:45

@sharonl wrote:The alleged visit to the barn/farmhouse took place on June 10 2007.  It appears that the building was located 28Km SE of Praia Da Luz, there were reports of an old mine nearby. 

Can anyone locate this building?
There is nothing South East of Pria de Luz apart from the sea. I,ve read the 28km  and thought it reffered to trips to the Triangle to the West and the barn was in the South East Area of Pria De Luz itself. ( FYI one of the Portuguese word for Barn is the same as for Cellar, is it a miss-translation?)

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Re: The Barn

Post by onehand on 02.02.14 11:17

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/madeleine-agora-caa-centra-se-num.html

it looks like this map is from a german source, i will give it a try to find it, but from 2007 it would not be easy, lots of blogs sites or forum are already gone. but it could be from one of the german tabloids like bild or der spiegel.

not south-east at all! but at least it is on land and in portugal.

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Re: The Barn

Post by bobbin on 02.02.14 11:33

@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:
@sharonl wrote:The alleged visit to the barn/farmhouse took place on June 10 2007.  It appears that the building was located 28Km SE of Praia Da Luz, there were reports of an old mine nearby. 

Can anyone locate this building?
There is nothing South East of Pria de Luz apart from the sea. I,ve read the 28km  and thought it reffered to trips to the Triangle to the West and the barn was in the South East Area of Pria De Luz itself. ( FYI one of the Portuguese word for Barn is the same as for Cellar, is it a miss-translation?)

Definition Pron.
{N} (M) celeiro garner
{N} (M) celeiro granary
{N} (M) celeiro barnyard
{N} (M) celeiro barn
{N} (M) celeiro storehouse
{N} (M) celeiro church-owl
{N} (M) celeiro cellar
{N} (M) celeiro loft
{N} (M) celeiro mow

Could it have been that PdL is 28 Km south east of the barn rather than the other way round.
Was the first report in Portuguese or English. If Portuguese perhaps the meaning can be better identified, since a position SE of PdL is not really possible, unless it was a barn ship out at sea, which is really unlikely since they went by car.
Does anyone have an original reference.  spin 

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Re: The Barn

Post by onehand on 02.02.14 11:39

i put the article from joanna's blog in a translation site and get this:

Matt Drake in the Sunday Express article article
 
The search for Madeleine McCann last night focused in a barn near the Praia da Luz where the police found a blood-stained towel, that may have traces of blood of the missing child.
Fibers found on the towel correspond to those that were allegedly found in the rental car by Maddie's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann.

Portuguese Detectives discussed this progress when they met with the English police and an employee of service last week at the police station in Leicester.
Today, for the first time the Sunday Express put some light on the line of thinking that the cops are chasing in hopes of finding a development in this case so puzzling.

Based on recent information from a wiretap the phones the cops found a towel, with a drawing azteca, around a barn abandoned in a deserted area near the Praia da Luz.
Portuguese sources said forensic scientists used a substance called Luminol to search blood depots and found three, at the ends of the towel. The police compared the blood on the towel with Madeleine's DNA.
.Although the samples were not of good quality scientists were able to do the analysis using the method of Low Copy Number * which showed a moderate match with Madeleine's blood. Although not conclusive results are taken as evidence credible enough to be used as evidence in court. The cops still found a bread (loaf?) and a plastic bag (carrier bag?) that did not provide significant information, but a careful analysis revealed that the towel fibers were of the same material the towel. These fragments of fibres were microscopically examined in relation to previously fibers found in the Renault Scenic hired 25 days after Madeleine went missing. Portuguese police sources say exist "strong possibility" that the fibers found on the towel are corresponding to the trunk of the car. One possibility considered by Portuguese police is that the towel has been at some point in the trunk of the car of the Renault Scenic, which would explain how the fibers there have arrived.
 
Article from 2007, december 2

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/madeleine-agora-caa-centra-se-num.html


om the little map on joanna's blog pdl could be indeed south east of that marked red circle on it. 


vermuteter fundort is german and means possible finding place or site.

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Re: The Barn

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 02.02.14 12:18

@bobbin wrote:
@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:
@sharonl wrote:The alleged visit to the barn/farmhouse took place on June 10 2007.  It appears that the building was located 28Km SE of Praia Da Luz, there were reports of an old mine nearby. 

Can anyone locate this building?
There is nothing South East of Pria de Luz apart from the sea. I,ve read the 28km  and thought it reffered to trips to the Triangle to the West and the barn was in the South East Area of Pria De Luz itself. ( FYI one of the Portuguese word for Barn is the same as for Cellar, is it a miss-translation?)

Definition Pron.
{N} (M) celeiro garner
{N} (M) celeiro granary
{N} (M) celeiro barnyard
{N} (M) celeiro barn
{N} (M) celeiro storehouse
{N} (M) celeiro church-owl
{N} (M) celeiro cellar
{N} (M) celeiro loft
{N} (M) celeiro mow

Could it have been that PdL is 28 Km south east of the barn rather than the other way round.
Was the first report in Portuguese or English. If Portuguese perhaps the meaning can be better identified, since a position SE of PdL is not really possible, unless it was a barn ship out at sea, which is really unlikely since they went by car.
Does anyone have an original reference.  spin 
this is in the circle of the article 
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=praia+da+luz&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0xd1b312c02146729:0x500ebbde490b460,Luz,+Portugal&gl=uk&ei=9iDuUpLkKvPo7AbDgYHoBg&ved=0CMEBELYD

(From the street view of it it has been rebuilt)

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Re: The Barn

Post by bobbin on 02.02.14 12:38

@onehand wrote:i put the article from joanna's blog in a translation site and get this:

Matt Drake in the Sunday Express article article
 
The search for Madeleine McCann last night focused in a barn near the Praia da Luz where the police found a blood-stained towel, that may have traces of blood of the missing child.
Fibers found on the towel correspond to those that were allegedly found in the rental car by Maddie's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann.

Portuguese Detectives discussed this progress when they met with the English police and an employee of service last week at the police station in Leicester.
Today, for the first time the Sunday Express put some light on the line of thinking that the cops are chasing in hopes of finding a development in this case so puzzling.

Based on recent information from a wiretap the phones the cops found a towel, with a drawing azteca, around a barn abandoned in a deserted area near the Praia da Luz.
Portuguese sources said forensic scientists used a substance called Luminol to search blood depots and found three, at the ends of the towel. The police compared the blood on the towel with Madeleine's DNA.
.Although the samples were not of good quality scientists were able to do the analysis using the method of Low Copy Number * which showed a moderate match with Madeleine's blood. Although not conclusive results are taken as evidence credible enough to be used as evidence in court. The cops still found a bread (loaf?) and a plastic bag (carrier bag?) that did not provide significant information, but a careful analysis revealed that the towel fibers were of the same material the towel. These fragments of fibres were microscopically examined in relation to previously fibers found in the Renault Scenic hired 25 days after Madeleine went missing. Portuguese police sources say exist "strong possibility" that the fibers found on the towel are corresponding to the trunk of the car. One possibility considered by Portuguese police is that the towel has been at some point in the trunk of the car of the Renault Scenic, which would explain how the fibers there have arrived.
 
Article from 2007, december 2

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/madeleine-agora-caa-centra-se-num.html


om the little map on joanna's blog pdl could be indeed south east of that marked red circle on it. 


vermuteter fundort is german and means possible finding place or site.
Thanks onehand.
I looked at the Portuguese version in Joanna's blog, and in neither the British nor the Portuguese is there any mention of distance or geographical reference.
The map cannot be interpreted at PdL south east of the barn if it is the area marked in red circle.
It would be south west of circle if at all.
I notice the marked area is very near to the 'via do infante' the 'the road of the infant' but that might just be circumstantial and not the cause for a choice of concealment in that area.
I don't know where the 28 km South East reference comes from, but it's not that important.
Obviously the police know where it is since they found the towel with blood stains on it, and deemed it to show sufficiently that it matched enough to Madeleine's blood.
The Portuguese police did speak about this with the Leicester police, so even if the Leicester police (which have caused us some doubt) don't show themselves to be above board, the Portuguese police have got it noted, and this came from analysing mobile phone pings, so I'm content that it's in the right hands, vis a vis the risk of an attempted UK based whitewash.
The Portuguese won't let this go. IMO.

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Re: The Barn

Post by ultimaThule on 02.02.14 12:50

Sagres is 28km south west of Praia de Luz. 

I seem to recall tigger recently made a reference to Sagres - maybe on the Dongal thread?

ETA in Spain and Portugal 'Infante' (male) and 'Infanta' (female) is/was used to denote the child of a monarch as opposed to a child or children in general.  In English, Vio de Infante would translate as 'road of the prince' or Prince (Prince's) Road/Avenue etc.

Also ETA to add I'm with you, bobbin - now they've re-opened their investigation, the Portuguese will not let this go back on the shelf again.

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Re: The Barn

Post by onehand on 02.02.14 13:22

bobbin, you are right, i did mess up west and east, sorry for that.

the distance of 28 km is from comments about the phone tracings of o'brien and i found it in the mccann files:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id33.html

[color:40b5=000000]It is revealed that Portuguese police are investigating a mobile phone call from Russell O'Brien to Gerry McCann that was made on 10 June 2007. A team of telephone surveillance officers highlighted the call as it is understood to have contained key words that aroused police suspicions.
 

Investigators are concentrating on the exact whereabouts of Dr O'Brien when the call was made. It is understood Gerry McCann told detectives the call was made within a 4km radius of Praia da Luz but technicians working on the mobile phone network have dismissed this after examining records. It is believed the call took place 28km from Praia da Luz.


the message of the barn was on the same page as that of the 10 june 2007 call from o'brien:
http://s166.photobucket.com/user/pdoherty76/media/express.jpg.html



both are in small links under the portugese article from joanna's blog. 


i don't know of o'brien's phone was traced anywhere on route or around this barn. maybe sharoni got something more on that.


i vaguely remember also something with a find from some newspaper reporters, that had to do with the dutch scam letter and a map where madeleine would be burried. that is from the connection my head make from the picture of the man with the clot in his hand. it is in the english joanna article: http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mccanns-expess-news.html


there also must be a blog from someone about a derelict building in pdl itself near the church. the pictures are also over here: 
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Mike_Teskowski1.htm

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Re: The Barn

Post by Doug D on 02.02.14 14:26

Just a thought, but if I found a good place to hide/dispose/bury a body, why would I then leave clues lying around that could possibly lead back to such a place?

Even if I thought of it as a double-bluff and left said carpet or whatever in a completely different place, why would I want to leave any clues at all?

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Re: The Barn

Post by bobbin on 02.02.14 14:54

@ultimaThule wrote:Sagres is 28km south west of Praia de Luz. 

I seem to recall tigger recently made a reference to Sagres - maybe on the Dongal thread?

ETA in Spain and Portugal 'Infante' (male) and 'Infanta' (female) is/was used to denote the child of a monarch as opposed to a child or children in general.  In English, Vio de Infante would translate as 'road of the prince' or Prince (Prince's) Road/Avenue etc.

Also ETA to add I'm with you, bobbin - now they've re-opened their investigation, the Portuguese will not let this go back on the shelf again.

Thanks ultimaThule, I couldn't find a 'tongue in cheek' icon to put by it, but the McCs definitely wouldn't know that 'infante/a' would mean anything other than 'infant'.
The only Portuguese they appear to know is Kate's famous phrase for 'please return our child', and 'yeah, give us 14 more bottles of free wine'.  laughat 

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Re: The Barn

Post by Mustardseed on 08.06.14 19:55


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Re: The Barn

Post by Briohazard on 09.06.14 3:31

Hopefully not too OT but this is a comment from one of the OFM page members. Apparently they were told not to look in derelict houses in ther search and to leave them to police: 


Quote, copied and pasted: "I helped search for Madeleine in the early hours of the morning she went missing.  It was a shambles.  Locals had a map and were highlighting areas that had been searched but we were told if it was an old looking house or shed with a padlock on we couldn't search inside as it was owned if it had a padlock and the police were to have to search it but across all the derelict land there were lots of places like this!  The police also did not close the border off quick enough!  I pray Madeleine is eventually found.  Cannot even begin to know how your family must be feeling.  I lived in Lagos near Luz at the time.  I had a baby boy born in portimao.  And now live in the uk and am pleased to see how every now and then the press have exhibited the continued search for Madeleine.  Keep pressing on until you have an answer every blessing x"

What I got from that comment is that whoever directed the search wasn't police at that stage. If my daughter was missing I wouldn't care if places were owned or not. I certainly wouldn't be telling people to steer clear of certain areas at that highly emotional point in the first few hours. Hmmm

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Re: The Barn

Post by canada12 on 09.06.14 3:50

@Briohazard wrote:Hopefully not too OT but this is a comment from one of the OFM page members. Apparently they were told not to look in derelict houses in ther search and to leave them to police: 


Quote, copied and pasted: "I helped search for Madeleine in the early hours of the morning she went missing.  It was a shambles.  Locals had a map and were highlighting areas that had been searched but we were told if it was an old looking house or shed with a padlock on we couldn't search inside as it was owned if it had a padlock and the police were to have to search it but across all the derelict land there were lots of places like this!  The police also did not close the border off quick enough!  I pray Madeleine is eventually found.  Cannot even begin to know how your family must be feeling.  I lived in Lagos near Luz at the time.  I had a baby boy born in portimao.  And now live in the uk and am pleased to see how every now and then the press have exhibited the continued search for Madeleine.  Keep pressing on until you have an answer every blessing x"

What I got from that comment is that whoever directed the search wasn't police at that stage. If my daughter was missing I wouldn't care if places were owned or not. I certainly wouldn't be telling people to steer clear of certain areas at that highly emotional point in the first few hours. Hmmm

How interesting! (The bolding is mine).
So that's an unintentional little nugget of information shared with us. If there was a privately owned piece of property, or a property with a lock on it, then local searchers were directed not to look there. Obviously they wouldn't be able to enter a padlocked property anyway...but there, in my opinion, would be an excellent case of misdirection. Don't look in these places because we don't have permission to go into them. I wonder who was providing that piece of misdirection? And whether one of those properties, carefully padlocked, did, in fact, conceal Madeleine's body throughout the night?

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Re: The Barn

Post by Justformaddie on 09.06.14 4:01

Is it an old barn or water treatment plant next on the list?

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Re: The Barn

Post by Justformaddie on 09.06.14 4:21

Seems it's 3 sites together, a barn, a water plant and the surrounding scrub land ( IMO)

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Re: The Barn

Post by bristow on 09.06.14 5:38

I hadn't heard of the disused mineshaft before.  Nearly impossible to search.
I wonder if the Mc's knew of it?

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Re: The Barn

Post by tigger on 09.06.14 7:55

Without going through the files:

The disused barn is iirc some 24/28 km distance from PdL.
The search there was connected to a mobile phone call - probably the one on Sunday 10th June.
When asked GM said the call was to someone - I think ROB - some 2km distant.
The 10th June the McCanns, dressed in black, flew to Morocco.
On their return GM stated that they needed time to grieve.

Apparently fibres were found in the barn relating to the same type of fibres in the hire car. The fibres may be from the pink blanket - based on hints from Dr.Amaral in a TV interview where he said the blanket was of great importance. (Not litt. quote)
A towel of Aztec design was also found in the barn.
A towel which does look to have an Aztec design can be seen in one of the interior shots of 5a, hanging over a chair.
photos in McCannfiles.com.
There was also mention of a metal sheet.

There are a great number of disused mineshafts in the area - at least that's what I've read in various accounts.

If we look further west, there is Villa do Bispo, the curious detour GM took on his return from the US.

If the PJ are looking in this area, I'm greatly encouraged.

The bag with jeans, fleece and colouring pencils was found somewhere between PdL and Lagos I believe.

All this started to play around October/November and can be found in the timelines or in the excellent - what would we do without it - McCannfiles.com where the press reports are in chronological order.

Random thought: if both the barn/mobile call, the contents of the bag are related to ROB and JT, it may well be those bits of news coming out that prompted them to announce shortly before the Rothley meeting that they wished to change their statements.
(Contents of the bag were women's clothes and JT 's rogatory has a quite unnecessary statement that she didn't take jeans on holiday).

Eta: the Sagres meeting of family and friends was on the 9 th June.



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Re: The Barn

Post by bobbin on 09.06.14 8:17

And was it the 10th when Murat had to suddenly hire a car ?
And, for the new search sites now, if mineshafts have been used, would the sniffer dogs be able to detect cadavour odour at the entrance ?
Do you remember what date it was that Gerry made that weird detour. Was it when he flew back from 'the White House, USA' visit IIRC ?

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Re: The Barn

Post by tigger on 09.06.14 8:33

End of July - around the 23rd I believe,  McCannfiles has a detailed itinerary.

This links with the dream Kate didn't have  - GM had to put the PJ straight.
Kate phoned one of the PJ.
So a short timeline of that phonecall , GM's return, detour and furious denial of his wife's dream would be good.
When exactly was GM aware of the dream and phonecall? Before or after his return, was the detour related or was G ignorant of the drama until he returned to the villa?


Clearly wasn't safe to leave her on her own.  winkwink

Eta: forgot to say that the mobile above pinged some 24 km distance from PdL, so Gerry was 'mistaken'. Which may have helped the PJ locating said barn.

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Re: The Barn

Post by Briohazard on 09.06.14 14:47

@canada12 wrote:
@Briohazard wrote:Hopefully not too OT but this is a comment from one of the OFM page members. Apparently they were told not to look in derelict houses in ther search and to leave them to police: 


Quote, copied and pasted: "I helped search for Madeleine in the early hours of the morning she went missing.  It was a shambles.  Locals had a map and were highlighting areas that had been searched but we were told if it was an old looking house or shed with a padlock on we couldn't search inside as it was owned if it had a padlock and the police were to have to search it but across all the derelict land there were lots of places like this!  The police also did not close the border off quick enough!  I pray Madeleine is eventually found.  Cannot even begin to know how your family must be feeling.  I lived in Lagos near Luz at the time.  I had a baby boy born in portimao.  And now live in the uk and am pleased to see how every now and then the press have exhibited the continued search for Madeleine.  Keep pressing on until you have an answer every blessing x"

What I got from that comment is that whoever directed the search wasn't police at that stage. If my daughter was missing I wouldn't care if places were owned or not. I certainly wouldn't be telling people to steer clear of certain areas at that highly emotional point in the first few hours. Hmmm

How interesting! (The bolding is mine).
So that's an unintentional little nugget of information shared with us. If there was a privately owned piece of property, or a property with a lock on it, then local searchers were directed not to look there. Obviously they wouldn't be able to enter a padlocked property anyway...but there, in my opinion, would be an excellent case of misdirection. Don't look in these places because we don't have permission to go into them. I wonder who was providing that piece of misdirection? And whether one of those properties, carefully padlocked, did, in fact, conceal Madeleine's body throughout the night?

Yes, a little unintentional nugget is very correct!

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Re: The Barn

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 09.06.14 15:05

@tigger wrote:
Random thought: if both the barn/mobile call, the contents of the bag are related to ROB and JT, it may well be those bits of news coming out that prompted them to announce shortly before the Rothley meeting that they wished to change their statements.
(Contents of the bag were women's clothes and JT 's rogatory has a quite unnecessary statement that she didn't take jeans on holiday).

Yes, and also in the same couple of weeks, JT recorded her interview for the Panorama 'documentary'. It's one thing to tell porkies (IMHO) to the Portuguese police (not realising that your statements would eventually be made public), it's another thing altogether to tell porkies (IMHO) on the BBC in front of millions of your own countrymen/women. My opinion has always been that the 'fleece and jeans' story was 'leaked' as a threat to stay 'on message'.

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Re: The Barn

Post by ultimaThule on 09.06.14 15:26

And it's yet another thing to tell porkies without realising that your words are being recorded and the voicewaves will be analysed by a forensic specialist such as that clever Dr Parton of the FBI, wlbts  sarcastic 

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Re: The Barn

Post by sar on 09.06.14 15:31

@onehand wrote:bobbin, you are right, i did mess up west and east, sorry for that.

the distance of 28 km is from comments about the phone tracings of o'brien and i found it in the mccann files:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id33.html

[color:a777=000000]It is revealed that Portuguese police are investigating a mobile phone call from Russell O'Brien to Gerry McCann that was made on 10 June 2007. A team of telephone surveillance officers highlighted the call as it is understood to have contained key words that aroused police suspicions.
 

Investigators are concentrating on the exact whereabouts of Dr O'Brien when the call was made. It is understood Gerry McCann told detectives the call was made within a 4km radius of Praia da Luz but technicians working on the mobile phone network have dismissed this after examining records. It is believed the call took place 28km from Praia da Luz.


the message of the barn was on the same page as that of the 10 june 2007 call from o'brien:
http://s166.photobucket.com/user/pdoherty76/media/express.jpg.html



both are in small links under the portugese article from joanna's blog. 


i don't know of o'brien's phone was traced anywhere on route or around this barn. maybe sharoni got something more on that.


i vaguely remember also something with a find from some newspaper reporters, that had to do with the dutch scam letter and a map where madeleine would be burried. that is from the connection my head make from the picture of the man with the clot in his hand. it is in the english joanna article: http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mccanns-expess-news.html


there also must be a blog from someone about a derelict building in pdl itself near the church. the pictures are also over here: 
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Mike_Teskowski1.htm
wire tap mentioned, interesting

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Re: The Barn

Post by tigger on 09.06.14 15:55

@ultimaThule wrote:And it's yet another thing to tell porkies without realising that your words are being recorded and the voicewaves will be analysed by a forensic specialist such as that clever Dr Parton of the FBI, wlbts   sarcastic 

George O'Toole wrote 'The assassination tapes' in 1975.

He analysed the voice of Oswald on various tapes, LHO was stressed without a doubt when he stated he'd not been given an attorney but no stress was apparent when he denied having killed Kennedy.

Fascinating book and method - seems more reliable than polygraph. i didn't know the FBI was using it.

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