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Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by aiyoyo on 13.08.14 9:47

@Carrry On Doctor wrote:
@jeanmonroe wrote:[
Just like Stuart Prior, of Leicester Police, had to face, not realising, his, er, 'helpfulness', to the Madeleine 'investigation' he led, would be released, by the PJ. He never, in his worst nightmare, THOUGHT his er, 'input' into his investigation with the PJ would EVER 'see the light of day'


Exactly, and OG know the PJ will do the same again.

The PJ have not re-opened the case and co-operated with SY simply to go through the motions. They want a result. Payback time after their reputation being trashed.

SY daren't risk a whitewash as it will be a massive own goal for them and the British Government.

So I have faith, but the delay is frustrating.

IMO

That's a very good question - ie would the PJ release the reopened investigation process files?
I would think not.

The way I understand it, PT law legislates that when investigation is abandoned as in shelved, the process files had to be released so that public are informed why investigation stopped.
If case is left status quo indefinitely unclose without declaring it shelved arguidos have to be held regardless, until investigation is declared exhaustive, reach an impasse, can't be solved, hence shelved. When the investigation leads to indictment then naturally person/s held as suspect/s is/ are either prosecuted or released depending on the evidence whereby the investigation is deemed spent and closed.

This time around, there is no arguido involved, oh no wait a minute they did interview burglars et al under  arguidos status.  OMG, to release them of the arguidos status the case will have to be re-declared shelved or closed, and the process files released too, if the law is to be observed to the Ts.

Oh Lordie, it must mean they must come to a conclusion about the reopened investigation one way or another (1) re close the case, relieve arguidos of their 'suspect' status or (2) indict and prosecute somebody for the crime in which case the case shall be deemed solved and closed.  

The pertinent question is : what is the rationale for their legislation that process files had to be released when case is shelved or closed?  Any one any idea?

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by jeanmonroe on 13.08.14 10:03

The pertinent question is : what is the rationale for their legislation that process files had to be released when case is shelved or closed? Any one any idea?
-----------------------------------

Because it's their LAW?

They are HONEST 'brokers'?

They have NOTHING to 'hide/cover up'?

OH, my mastick, i thought you were asking about the greatest police force in the world!  winkwink 

The ELITE UK Metropolitan Police.  thumbsup 


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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Doug D on 13.08.14 10:14

As I understand it, the Portugese process is that the files become ‘open’ at the end of an investigation and are available for public scrutiny in the local police office or court building, can’t remember exactly which, and it doesn’t matter.
 
In the Mc’s case, it was felt that the demand to see the files would be so great that a decision was made to release them on disc to prevent meltdown at the local copshop.
 
This is likely to be the case again at the end of this investigation, so, logically, they will have to do the same.
 
As an aside, I wonder if anyone has ever trawled through the actual papers to see if anything is actually available that is not on disc?
 
Can't see that the ‘rationale for their legislation that process files had to be released’ is relevant. Their law is what their law is.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by jeanmonroe on 13.08.14 11:00

As I understand it, the Portugese process is that the files become ‘open’ at the end of an investigation and are available for public
---------------------------------------------------------

As i understand it, the Portuguese process is that the 'files' become public at the end of, or SHELVING of, whilst NOT actually 'closing', an investigation.

And SHELVED, not CLOSED, 'files' can remain 'valid' for up to 20 years, pending new and relevent information, becoming forthcoming, in which case the SHELVED, not CLOSED, file case, can be UN-SHELVED and the new, pertinent and  relevent, 'information' to ESTABLISH the MATERIAL TRUTH of a SHELVED, not CLOSED, case, can be acted upon.

ISTBC.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Praiaaa on 13.08.14 11:09

@PeterMac wrote:

OR, might not a dawn raid be AR's parting shot.
Organises the raid, sets the scene, quietly exits stage- left,  and lets his team of professionals get on with it, with no further intervention from him.
Dawn raid - now there's something to hope for...

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by jeanmonroe on 13.08.14 11:32

@Praiaaa wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:

OR, might not a dawn raid be AR's parting shot.
Organises the raid, sets the scene, quietly exits stage- left,  and lets his team of professionals get on with it, with no further intervention from him.

Dawn raid - now there's something to hope for...

More likely a Dawn Chorus 'mantra' chanted by 38, solely dedicated, "McCann Cops" at OG, daily:

"McCanns and friends, are NOT suspects"
"McCanns and friends, are NOT suspects"
"McCanns and friends, are NOT suspects"

(to be repeated constantly, in one's mind, throughout the working day, 9am-5pm, because OG staff don't do 'investigating' McCann 'abduction' case after 5pm daily,....... or do they?  winkwink )

All in my fevered imagination, of course.

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Just change the signpost !

Post by PeterMac on 28.08.14 14:47


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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Bishop Brennan on 28.08.14 15:41

With the latest timing of SY's visit, the last vestiges of respectability have been abandoned and SY are effectively admitting that Grange is a whitewash.  How embarrassing for them and for the UK.  I wonder if it was a whitewash from the start or if it just became one as soon as they realised that there was no break-in, no evidence, no abduction.  And that the only evidence found to date implicated the parents?

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Dont Make Me Laff on 28.08.14 19:16

I think most of us realised it was a given that the 'elite' would return to Portugal just as the trial reconvenes.

I don't want to derail this thread, but I can't understand why a 'situation/crime' which occurred on foreign soil warranted the input of a police force outside of the jurisdiction in that country - (sorry if I am sounding thick)
but if I were foolish enough to get myself arrested/suspected of a crime whilst on holiday outside the UK can I expect the country of my domicile to intervene and get me off?

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Newintown on 28.08.14 22:01

@Dont Make Me Laff wrote:I think most of us realised it was a given that the 'elite' would return to Portugal just as the trial reconvenes.

I don't want to derail this thread, but I can't understand why a 'situation/crime' which occurred on foreign soil warranted the input of a police force outside of the jurisdiction in that country - (sorry if I am sounding thick)
but if I were foolish enough to get myself arrested/suspected of a crime whilst on holiday outside the UK can I expect the country of my domicile to intervene and get me off?

Don't forget the "Find Madeleine fund", which turned out to be "Assist the family" Fund.  The Ltd Company Fund is operating in the UK and therefore would have to be investigated by the UK police.  There may be many people involved in the "Fund" who live in Portugal/Spain and elsewhere who the UK police will need to contact and interview hence the assistance required from the Portuguese police and other police forces in Europe and from around the World (off shore accounts to be looked at, maybe).

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Dont Make Me Laff on 28.08.14 22:26

@Newintown wrote:
@Dont Make Me Laff wrote:I think most of us realised it was a given that the 'elite' would return to Portugal just as the trial reconvenes.

I don't want to derail this thread, but I can't understand why a 'situation/crime' which occurred on foreign soil warranted the input of a police force outside of the jurisdiction in that country - (sorry if I am sounding thick)
but if I were foolish enough to get myself arrested/suspected of a crime whilst on holiday outside the UK can I expect the country of my domicile to intervene and get me off?

Don't forget the "Find Madeleine fund", which turned out to be "Assist the family" Fund.  The Ltd Company Fund is operating in the UK and therefore would have to be investigated by the UK police.  There may be many people involved in the "Fund" who live in Portugal/Spain and elsewhere who the UK police will need to contact and interview hence the assistance required from the Portuguese police and other police forces in Europe and from around the World (off shore accounts to be looked at, maybe).

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Praiaaa on 29.08.14 6:22

@Dont Make Me Laff wrote:

Don't forget the "Find Madeleine fund", which turned out to be "Assist the family" Fund.  The Ltd Company Fund is operating in the UK and therefore would have to be investigated by the UK police.  There may be many people involved in the "Fund" who live in Portugal/Spain and elsewhere who the UK police will need to contact and interview hence the assistance required from the Portuguese police and other police forces in Europe and from around the World (off shore accounts to be looked at, maybe).
Good post. I have often thought that if TM knew how M disappeared, and that she  was dead, it would be the 'Al Capone' method that would need to be employed to put them behind bars. IMO

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Realist on 03.01.15 13:23

A the end of the day, there can only be two possible conclusions that can be derived for the raison detre of Operation Grange, the first being that the Met. Police are privy to information/evidence that we are unaware of which leads them to the conclusion that some kind of Kidnapping by a third party transpired, or it is a blatant cover up operation to exonerate the McCanns from any culpability in the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Guest on 03.01.15 13:40

@Realist wrote:A the end of the day, there can only be two possible conclusions that can be derived for the raison detre of Operation Grange, the first being that the Met. Police are privy to information/evidence that we are unaware of which leads them to the conclusion that some kind of Kidnapping by a third party transpired, or it is a blatant cover up operation to exonerate the McCanns from any culpability in the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine.
Still doesn't explain the dog alerts in the apartment,they alerted to something to which they were trained to do.That something is a cadaver alert and blood alerts.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by espeland on 06.01.15 8:20

WMD wrote:
@Realist wrote:A the end of the day, there can only be two possible conclusions that can be derived for the raison detre of Operation Grange, the first being that the Met. Police are privy to information/evidence that we are unaware of which leads them to the conclusion that some kind of Kidnapping by a third party transpired, or it is a blatant cover up operation to exonerate the McCanns from any culpability in the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine.
Still doesn't explain the dog alerts in the apartment,they alerted to something to which they were trained to do.That something is a cadaver alert and blood alerts.



There is a third conclusion: that OG are hiding their true thoughts/activities from the McCanns (and us, but we are important only in that we can publicise them) - as has been said elsewhere, this is an enormous crime to be investigated and will take considerable time.

If it is a cover-up, SY will have to explain away the dog alerts. With Richard Hall and now Sonia Poulton on the case, SY won't find it so easy.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by nomendelta on 06.01.15 10:55

SY won't have to explain the dog alerts if there's a whitewash. The topic will (as it already is) be sidelined into the same bin as conspiracy theories. The dogs made a mistake or else the dogs will be totally ignored.

Even if SY announce with certainty that Maddie was killed by an intruder they can't possibly go into the dogs alerts. Not without outright stating that the timelines were completely made up and Maddie must have been alone long enough for an intruder to kill her (accidentally or otherwise) make a mess and clean up all dna traces, all the blood, have her body around various points long enough to leave cadaverine...no, the dogs cannot be integrated into any scenario SY might come up with a whitewash so they'll be ignored or dismissed.

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Since we are back on the dogs

Post by PeterMac on 06.01.15 13:18

Quick update on the main cases, but I would love to hear of others to include,  Please let me have the names

On the Reliability of Cadaver dogs

Dogs trained to detect the smell of human cadaverine are now routinely used throughout the world.  We examine some of the leading cases.

From the outset it is important to note that a dog cannot give “evidence“ in a criminal trial. In most jurisdictions evidence has to be subject to examination and cross examination by learned counsel, and this is clearly impossible.  On many occasions the alert by the dog will result in the discovery of remains and it will be that which becomes the primary evidence. The fact that the dog indicated where to look becomes a side issue, of no particular legal importance.

Here we look at some occasions when the dog alerts, but no significant physical evidence can be found at the time.   The best that can be achieved in these circumstances is that the handler of the animal gives evidence of the dog’s reactions, often with video confirmation, and can then be cross examined on his interpretation of the animal’s behaviour.

(I shall refer to the cases by the name of the deceased or missing person, rather than by the Trial reference, because of the ways in which these differ across jurisdictions)

1 The case with a legal significance may not yet have been fully appreciated, is that of Jeanette Zapata. in Dane Country, USA.   In 1976 she served her husband Eugene Zapata with divorce papers.  She went missing shortly afterwards.  29 years later dogs alerted in the basement of the family home, and in several other places where the family had lived over the intervening time.   At trial his lawyer persuaded the judge that the dog’s finding could not be admitted, since the places in which they had alerted indicated that he had carried the body round to everywhere he had lived, and it was suggested that this was preposterous.   The jury failed to reach a verdict.    Before his retrial however, he confessed, and crucially confirmed that he had in fact transported the body round before disposing of it.    The dogs had been absolutely accurate.   No body has been found.  

2 The recent case of  Bianca Jones, a 2 year old girl murdered by her father D’Andre Lane in Detroit USA, with the added details of an alleged abduction, was an occasion when Mr Martin Grime, a British retired police officer, was working for the FBI.  His evidence of the alerts by his dog was admitted to show that Bianca was dead whilst in the back of the car, and not taken by armed men as was being alleged. Lane was convicted, though no body has been found.

3 The trial of Adrian Prout, in 2010, for the murder of Kate Prout, his wife, in the UK, was notable again for a verdict of guilty, despite no body having been found. Dogs had indicted the presence of a body in the house, but nothing had been found.  Some time after his conviction Prout confessed, and indicted the location of the body, confirming that the dogs had been absolutely accurate in their findings.

4 In the murder of Susan Pilley in Edinburgh, by her colleague David Gilroy, in 2010, the court heard that the dogs had alerted in the office basement garage and in two areas of the boot of Gilroy’s car, even though this had been cleaned recently with fluid or air freshener.  The defence failed to convince the jury that the absence of physical evidence entitled his client to acquittal.  He was convicted.   No body has been found.

5 Cori Baker from Oklahoma was murdered by her sister’s boyfriend Marquis Bulloch, in 2007. He changed his story several times whilst being investigated, and the dogs, partly funded by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, were brought into search a large area after a skull had been found.  They alerted in several places.  No other physical evidence was discovered.  He was convicted

6 The case of  Guadeloupe Montano from Kane County, USA, is now complete. It is alleged that she was murdered by her husband Aurelio Montano in 1990.  It may be the first time that the dog’s alerts have been used as evidence in that State.  They indicate that the body lay in one position and was then moved to another. The trial took place in October 2013.   No body has been found.   He was convicted

7 The case of Amir Jennings, allegedly killed by her mother Zinah Jennings in 2011, involves a mother who reported her son missing.   Dogs searched the house and the car, and human blood was then found. No body has been found. Zinah Jennings was convicted on a charge of unlawful conduct toward a child, and sentenced to 10 years

8 The trial of Albert Fine, the partner of Catherine Hoholski, from Lorain USA, is  pending.  In this case the body was found within 60 seconds of the dog being deployed, and it was then used to identify other locations relevant to the prosecution case.  He faces the death penalty if convicted.

9 The alleged abduction of Isabel Mercedes Celis has been called into question by the findings of two dogs, one a cadaver dog, in the family home.  The findings were said to be “significant”,  the house is being treated as a crime scene and the matter is still under investigation.   No body has been found.

10 The disappearance of 6 year old Etan Patz in New York 33 years ago, has already shown the almost unbelievable feats of which cadaver dogs are capable. In this case pads of absorbent material were left for a time on the concrete floor of the basement and then presented to the dogs for testing.  As a result the concrete floor  was then ripped up. The handler Englebert said.  "We as human beings never lose our scent. If [a body] had been there for a while, that scent would still be there," she said, indicating that even if investigators do not find remains in the basement, it is possible human remains may have once been there before being moved.”  The trial of Pedro Hernandez, who has admitted kidnapping and murder, is pending.  No body has been found.

11 The parents of Lisa Irwin, from Kansas City, also allege that she must have been abducted in the middle of the night.  The mother told Police she did not search, “because she was afraid of what she might find”.    Disturbed earth was found behind the house, and the dog alerted in the parent’s bedroom.  As a result a full search warrant was granted, and the police say they want to talk to the parents Jeremy Irwin and Deborah Bradley, one to one.

12 The cold case of 14 year old Melanie Melanson, from Massachusetts USA, who disappeared 20 years ago, has been given fresh impetus through the findings of a cadaver dog which alerted in an area targeted following a tip off to Police.

13 Another mother, Shakara Dickens, of Memphis USA, reported in 2010 that she had given up her daughter Lauryn Dickens for adoption, but the various stories turned out to be false. A dog identified cadaver odour in the house and in the boot of the car, and despite defence arguments, she was found guilty of Murder.  No body has been found.

14 The infamous case of Caylee Anthony, whose mother Casey Anthony was accused of murdering her in Orlando USA, in 2011, was also notable in that the evidence of the cadaver dog handler was admitted, even though the body was found later at a different location.  The dog alerted in the boot of the car, and it was alleged that the mother had then dumped the body.  The evidence was highly detailed, with full description of the system of ‘final trained alert’ by the dog showing an exact position, distinguished from a more general interest.   In the event  Anthony was not found guilty of the murder, but was convicted of several lesser offences.  There are moves to have the case reopened at Federal level.

15 In the UK, the case of Kirsi Gifford-Hull, in Winchester in 2005, is of interest since although the body was discovered by a man walking a dog, and the offender Mike Gifford-Hull had made a public appeal at a press conference for his wife to return, cadaver dogs had already alerted some weeks earlier in the house and in his car during the initial search for a “missing person”.   After the trial he told officers that when he saw the dogs alerting in the car he had contemplated making a full admission.  He was convicted.    After the trial  Judge Guy Boney QC ”. . .added that the police inquiry was so superior it could be matched with that of any other police force in the world.”



With apologies to all the Twitter Shills and pros who are not going to like this at all.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 07.01.15 9:13

@Praiaaa wrote:
@Dont Make Me Laff wrote:

Don't forget the "Find Madeleine fund", which turned out to be "Assist the family" Fund.  The Ltd Company Fund is operating in the UK and therefore would have to be investigated by the UK police.  There may be many people involved in the "Fund" who live in Portugal/Spain and elsewhere who the UK police will need to contact and interview hence the assistance required from the Portuguese police and other police forces in Europe and from around the World (off shore accounts to be looked at, maybe).
Good post. I have often thought that if TM knew how M disappeared, and that she  was dead, it would be the 'Al Capone' method that would need to be employed to put them behind bars. IMO
If the Fraudation Limited were to be investigated then BIS & Uncle Vinnie would need to be involved as they are in charge of company regulation. Maybe an FOI to them to see if they have been or are involved.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by woodforthetrees on 08.01.15 9:39

@Praiaaa wrote:
@Dont Make Me Laff wrote:

Don't forget the "Find Madeleine fund", which turned out to be "Assist the family" Fund.  The Ltd Company Fund is operating in the UK and therefore would have to be investigated by the UK police.  There may be many people involved in the "Fund" who live in Portugal/Spain and elsewhere who the UK police will need to contact and interview hence the assistance required from the Portuguese police and other police forces in Europe and from around the World (off shore accounts to be looked at, maybe).
Good post. I have often thought that if TM knew how M disappeared, and that she  was dead, it would be the 'Al Capone' method that would need to be employed to put them behind bars. IMO

TM have known Madeleiene was 'most likely deceased' very early on and were informed as such by people around them when this all started. They were also informed that this would be more of a certainty if they published certain pictures of her, with certain features....which they did. 

If this wasn't enough, cadaver scent and blood DNA found in the apartment was a whopping indication that she was most certainly deceased prior to being moved from there.

A final nail in the coffin (excuse the pun) was OG digging up the hillside looking for a body after claiming she may not have left the apartment alive.

All of the above proves that the 'find Madeleine Fund' has been a fraud from day 1. Unfortunately, the McCanns continue to claim "there is no proof she is dead, show me the body" etc etc and as a result can openly say they BELIEVE she isn't dead. With this in their back pocket the charade continues and they can continue to ask for donations.

With regard to who can charge people with what, from my understanding, the McCanns can only be charged with fraud in the UK, any neglect, perverting the course of justice, other charges relating to the case would have to be issues by the PJ. OG remit is to review the information and assist the Portuguese.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by plebgate on 08.01.15 16:18

It was reported a little while ago that Mr. & Mrs. had asked for certainty from SY.

If SY can't say for certain at the end of their investigation what happened Mr. & Mrs. will be able to say they still believe that Maddie is alive and will be able to continue asking gen. public for donations.

There will always be people willing to give.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by woodforthetrees on 09.01.15 9:50

@plebgate wrote:It was reported a little while ago that Mr. & Mrs. had asked for certainty from SY.

If SY can't say for certain at the end of their investigation what happened Mr. & Mrs. will be able to say they still believe that Maddie is alive and will be able to continue asking gen. public for donations.

There will always be people willing to give.
Yes this.

The McCanns need to keep the 'she could be alive' theory going, not only to justify why they keep the fund going (regardless of the fact that they have been informed multiple times right from the initial week that she is no longer alive) but more importantly.... if she cannot be confirmed deceased, then the cadaver scent in the apartment cannot be attributed to Madeleine.... it is vital that this connection is not made, as if it is, it means that Madeleiene was deceased for a number of hours before being moved.... which blows the whole tapas checking rota clean out of the water.

Regardless of who took Madeleine from the apartment and whether is was a lone paedo (OG's theory) or Papa Mc (Amarals theory), unless there is a body, or the perp admits what went on in the apartment, the 'pact' continues, there are no neglect and fund fraud charges looming

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by PeterMac on 09.01.15 10:40

" />

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by ultimaThule on 09.01.15 11:05

Nice one, PeterM clapping1 - a most apt slogan for a vigil in Trafalgar Square should it become neccessary to organise a formal protest at Op Grange's inability to bring the perpetrators of heinous crimes against this child to account. .

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by woodbine on 09.01.15 16:18

Assuming this is one of the biggest whitewashes of our time, I'd be interested to know who people think is the 'Tapas10' - the incredibly important person whose involvement has led to this cover-up. I've heard various names here and there and recent news has led me to thinking along particular lines. Am I right in thinking that it's impossible to discuss anywhere due to potentially opening up the site to libel action? Or would you be opening yourself up to a ConBruntation by even making suggestions?

My thoughts are that this will be like the Jimmy Saville episode where the news doesn't come out until the person involved is in the ground. And then it's open-season on everyone else involved.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by aiyoyo on 09.01.15 20:20

@PeterMac wrote:" />


Pourquoi pas "Je Suis Maddie" ?  Plus facile a dire, non ?

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