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Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by sami on 02.03.14 18:03

I don't understand exactly how the dogs findings are expected to be portrayed by SY at this point in time.

Other than us knowing for certain they have not spoken publically about them, we cannot be certain they have been ignored.

For Redwood to simply mention them makes a very big implication, in the direction of the parents.  He has never, to my knowledge, publically declared that the statements do not match or make sense to any rational person, or made any public declaration about any of the other evidence - the shutters lie etc.  

So I don't agree that not talking about the dogs is an automatic sign of the team disagreeing or ignoring them.

The dogs evidence is what it is and cannot be disputed until such time as Madeleine turns up alive and well.  Otherwise their evidence will be taken along with all of the other evidence SY see fit to include in their case at the appropriate time.

It is clear to me Redwood is not looking for an alive child, I'm sure the dogs evidence will have gone at least some way in coaxing him in that direction.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by marconi on 02.03.14 18:28

The laywer from Lisbon still didn't reply me.
I was hoping he was protestant or muslim but I fear he is Catholic and he could be enjoying carnival right now.
we have to wait.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by diatribe on 02.03.14 18:36

@sami wrote:

For Redwood to simply mention them makes a very big implication, in the direction of the parents. He has never, to my knowledge, publically declared that the statements do not match or make sense to any rational person, or made any public declaration about any of the other evidence - the shutters lie etc.


If he only mentioned the aforementioned, Sami, it certainly would indicate that his investigation was firmly focused on the parents. But we have to consider that he has stated that he is reviewing every piece of evidence, something along the lines of believing nothing until checked.

It may well be that he is factoring the unlikelihood of a forced entry, the dogs findings, the inconsistencies of witness statements etc. into the equation. If this is in fact the case, then we would have to assume that the 2013 edition of Crimewatch, which was diametrically opposed to this hypothesis, was merely a circa £700,000 exercise in lulling the McCanns into a false sense of security at a time of austerity and cutbacks in police resources.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by diatribe on 02.03.14 18:45

@marconi wrote:The laywer from Lisbon still didn't reply me.
I was hoping he was protestant or muslim but I fear he is Catholic and he could be enjoying carnival right now.
we have to wait.

Maybe he's jewish and doesn't work on the Sabbath.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Doug D on 02.03.14 18:52

Hard hat time I believe.
 
I can’t really come to terms with any logical reason for Grange being implemented (even at RB’s apparent insistence) with the sole objective of ‘no conclusion’ or a ‘whitewash’ at the end.
 
If that had been the intended result, it was best just left alone to expire in it’s own time, instructions given to the Mc’s & CM to shut up, get out of the limelight, (no ambassadorial roles or photo-shoots) and just hope that us nutters would eventually go away or die off.
 
There must therefore have been, what was considered to be, a compelling reason to open the review/investigation process.
 
Possibilities that I can think of:
 
1/. RB insistence. This just doesn’t wash as a reason. It could however be used as a convenient excuse for a reason, if it was felt that there was no option other than to open a review.
 
2/. Pressure from social media sites. Again doesn’t wash.
 
3/. Government perception that to not to be seen to be doing something in the light of future revelations would prove embarrassing. This I feel must have been the reason, but why? An easier (and less costly) answer must have been to do nothing in the hope that ‘it’ doesn’t materialize. If it does, it wasn’t down to you anyway, it was thoroughly investigated under the Blair/Brown regime and if new information was now being revealed, a review could have been commenced at that stage.
 
Possible scenarios under (3) could be:
 
PJ’s ongoing (unofficial at that time) investigation behind the scenes. Were awkward questions already being asked that were seen as likely to result in embarrassment at the end of the day? Now it is official this is likely to be the case.
 
Libel trial. A report to DC even at that early stage that it was unlikely to be successful with the result that the PJ’s original investigation & conclusions were likely to become common knowledge, raising the inevitable questions as to why we had knowingly hindered the PJ investigation, withheld and obstructed the obtaining of potentially case-breaking information and sheltered and protected suspects, way beyond ‘normal’ consular assistance and protection levels.
 
I am not completely convinced, but feel that this last argument probably has most merit. There is no way that anyone could have foreseen the trial dragging on this long, but having started the review, with AR instructed to keep it going until after the verdict, you have both eventualities covered.
Amaral (& therefore PJ) vindicated – ‘Well we knew something was amiss that’s why we started the review process’
Mc’s win. ‘We weren’t happy with what had gone before & felt a review was appropriate, but PJ are stupid and our whitewash scenario now fits the bill’.
 
In the likelihood that Amaral wins, possibly resulting in the Mc’s  bankruptcy, the review could then fall into line with the PJ who could be properly assisted in running the case to it’s logical conclusion. The trouble with this though is that it doesn’t allow for the original reason (whatever that may be) for the protection given, unless a level of plea bargaining can be introduced whereby a token sentence for a token charge can be negotiated if everybody keeps stum. With no money left in the pot, going after the fund would be pointless. I don’t know how the PJ would feel about this either, unless at this stage they would just be happy to get it wrapped up.
Could the Government could get away with this? Probably not.  A lot of the papers and others would be looking for their ‘pound of flesh’, even if not available in financial terms and I think would have a field day at this type of solution.
 
Sorry PeterMac, I tried but think I’ve failed!

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by j.rob on 02.03.14 19:00

Surely if the last photo can be confirmed as being a fake (and it is so obviously photo-shopped - part of Amelie's arm is missing) that in itself is incredibly damning? The whole photo situation is just weird. The McCanns used a photo of Madeleine in the initial poster campaign that was not up-to-date. That is peculiar. Surely at least one person on that holiday would in the normal course of events have taken a photo of Madeleine? An up-to-date photo would, you would think, help in a search to find her. Any of the family members could have sent over an up-to-date photo from home if necessary by email or mobile. 

Which begs the question that they specifically chose a photo that was neither up to date or accurate (she either has a colomba or she doesn't. If she doesn't have a colomba, then the photo seriously misrepresents her). Therefore, the poster campaign was based on misleading information.

They chose to emphasize her eye defect, initially, despite police warnings that this could well spell her death sentence at the hands of an abductor. This eye defect was then played down by the McCanns to the extent that it appears she may not have had one at all, or at least not the type initially flagged up. Just these factors alone are highly suspicious. (And I know there have been some theories about what might be indicated by flecks or dark patches in her iris.) It now appears that what at one stage was being called a colomba

Even if you only focus on these inconsistencies and peculiarities, you are forced to reach a certain conclusion - and it does not look good for the credibility or indeed honesty of the McCanns.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by j.rob on 02.03.14 19:02

 It now appears that what at one stage was being called a coloboma (incorrect spelling above) was, in actual fact, dark specs on the iris.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Cristobell on 02.03.14 19:25

@j.rob wrote: It now appears that what at one stage was being called a coloboma (incorrect spelling above) was, in actual fact, dark specs on the iris.


A coloboma carries all sorts of health implications, and few years ago, Goncalo Amaral pointed these out, and wondered why the McCanns were not making any pleas for the return of their daughter on health grounds. It was shortly after that, that Kate told Piers Morgan they didn't make a big deal of Maddie's eye defect!

Two doctors should have known if Maddie's eye defect was a coloboma or not. The blurring of the issue was deliberate of course, but the coloboma is worrying, it meant Madeleine was not perfect.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Guest on 02.03.14 19:29

In general: surely police wouldn't give "useful" information to the public aka their actual suspects. *) They have to say something from time to time and it's wrapped in cottonwool. E.g. "the parents and their friends are no persons of interest" could be a white lie, meaning: they're not interesting, as we know or strongly suspect what they've been doing. Equally "they are not suspects", meaning: not officially, as they haven't been questioned under caution or charged yet ... Same goes for the consequent use of the word "abduction". Removal of a corpse would fall into that category. It's all semantics IMO

I'm in agreement with those, who think that
- a whitewash would not have taken this much time and money. A review of 6 months or so, could have been closed with we all tried, but "no solution";
- neither NSY nor PJ would have been allowed to move their REVIEWS into full-blown INVESTIGATIONS, if there wasn't any indication, that there might be enough [indication of] evidence to charge and prosecute [CPS wouldn't have been involved either, if there wasn't something "solid" IMO]
- a seasoned team of detectives of this size, even if it WOULD be a whitewash, could NOT be silenced collectively.


*) there's a horrible crime in the Netherlands, where a couple of weeks ago an 80-year-old [intelligent, socially engaged, competent and absolutely lovely!] Minister of State was beaten to death in her garage. The police have been giving many statements, but none that would really reveal what they found and think ...

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by aquila on 02.03.14 19:34

I wonder if BHH regrets his balloon launch

snipped from BBC News


The four-year-old was snatched from her bed while on holiday in Portugal's Praia da Luz resort on 3 May.

The local community want to show support for the appeal.

Failed search

The balloons will cost a pound to sponsor and all money will go to the Madeleine appeal fund.

The Chief Constable of Merseyside Police - Bernard Hogan Howe will lead the release of balloons on the highest point of Liverpool inner city on Mossley Hill Field at 1400 BST.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6761027.stm



Not bad when a very senior police officer can head up your Fund appeal a little over 5 weeks after your daughter's disappearance whilst the PJ are investigating.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Guest on 02.03.14 19:39

Oh jeez, Aquila. This has been discussed to death and put to bed  sad  There is NO indication, that he was there. Au contraire.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Tangled Web on 02.03.14 19:39

Châtelaine wrote:In general: surely police wouldn't give "useful" information to the public aka their actual suspects. *) They have to say something from time to time and it's wrapped in cottonwool. E.g. "the parents and their friends are no persons of interest" could be a white lie, meaning: they're not interesting, as we know or strongly suspect what they've been doing. Equally "they are not suspects", meaning: not officially, as they haven't been questioned under caution or charged yet ... Same goes for the consequent use of the word "abduction". Removal of a corpse would fall into that category. It's all semantics IMO

I'm in agreement with those, who think that
- a whitewash would not have taken this much time and money. A review of 6 months or so, could have been closed with we all tried, but "no solution";
- neither NSY nor PJ would have been allowed to move their REVIEWS into full-blown INVESTIGATIONS, if there wasn't any indication, that there might be enough [indication of] evidence to charge and prosecute [CPS wouldn't have been involved either, if there wasn't something "solid" IMO]
- a seasoned team of detectives of this size, even if it WOULD be a whitewash, could NOT be silenced collectively.


*) there's a horrible crime in the Netherlands, where a couple of weeks ago an 80-year-old [intelligent, socially engaged, competent and absolutely lovely!] Minister of State was beaten to death in her garage. The police have been giving many statements, but none that would really reveal what they found and think ...

I agree. During police investigations, the public are not usually privy to forensic information. We are given details to 'outline' what has occurred for the purpose of potential witnesses coming forward but we aren't aware of what is going on 'behind the scenes' so I don't see evidence being ignored here, it's just not something that will be talked about publicly by the police and rightly so.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by onehand on 02.03.14 19:41

The most convenient scenario i could think of is this:
 
Let some poor chaps of lower rang, from the met have a booze night in a pub, while the table is wired by some tabloid media supporter, a nice anonymous phone call on a non traceable mobile will do as a tip and let them take a good laugh about the portugese police and spill some beans about the portugese leads of investigation.
 
Then the portugese could make a complaint to the eu court for interfering in a portugese investigation and yes, as you know, the eu is easily blamed in political uk, so they could bravely close their part of the investigation on court order.
 
So everyone could score his points. The anti-eu-lobby, could smear some at how they dare to interfere. Cameron could say, sorry we are still bound to the eu court decisions and close operation grange. The portugese could still investigate as they like and as the long they like or not.
 
To bring the lines op diplomacy between the uk and portugal in order, the uk send some nice rare zoo-animal as a gift and name it maddie. Plus the portugese leader may sit once next to the queen on the first possible banket, charles can visit portugal to hold a eco friendly talktalk in the portugese language. And all is forgotten and all will live for ever hapily after, except a little blond girl....
 

Worked pretty well in the old days, so why teach old dogs new tricks?

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by aquila on 02.03.14 19:52

Châtelaine wrote:Oh jeez, Aquila. This has been discussed to death and put to bed  sad  There is NO indication, that he was there. Au contraire.
I'm getting the feeling I've irritated you Châtelaine. I understand it to be true and that's why I've quoted the BBC article. I wasn't aware that it had been discussed to death and put to bed as you say.

Can someone point me in the right direction of a link on here? I've done a search but nothing much is coming up.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Guest on 02.03.14 19:56

I'm preparing dinner and have no time to search, Aquila, but I know by heart that there were at the time articles to announce the release of thousands of balloons, lead by BHH. And that there were 3 follow-up articles, that I know of. Two mentioning the presence of Kate's parents for the release of hundreds and one mentioning the presence of "someone" at Mersey police, but NOT BHH  ...

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by aquila on 02.03.14 19:59

Châtelaine wrote:I'm preparing dinner and have no time to search, Aquila, but I know by heart that there were at the time articles to announce the release of thousands of balloons, lead by BHH. And that there were 3 follow-up articles, that I know of. Two mentioning the presence of Kate's parents for the release of hundreds and one mentioning the presence of "someone" at Mersey police, but NOT BHH  ...
Thank you.  Bon apetit.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by ultimaThule on 02.03.14 20:12

The remit of Operation Grange is to 'investigate the abduction as if it occurred in the UK' which should provide a clue, namely that the courts of England and Wales have jurisdiction in this matter as the only conclusion which can be reached when a 3 year old child is reported to have been abducted from her bed and there has been no credible sighting of her during a period of almost 7 years, is that what was a review of a cold case has become a proactive investigation into the child's murder.  

To this end, AR heads a MIT whose officers are free to interview and/or formally question British nationals wherever in the world they may be, to interview and/or formally question Portuguese nationals resident in the UK and, unless or until a JIT is established wherein Met police officers and those of the PJ will be free to operate coercively in both Portugal and the UK, to speak to those Portuguese residents who voluntarily make contact with officers of AR's team regardless of whether they are based in the Algarve or London. 

The McCanns' suit for libel against Dr Amaral and his 3 co-defendants is a civil matter, the proceedings and outcome of which have no bearing on the criminal investigations currently being undertaken by SY and the PJ.  

As, IMO, the McCanns have been systematically bleeding the lifestyle fund dry for purposes which I suspect have very little to do with expenditure on legal fees, I will sprinkle any reports of their imminent bankruptcy with the same pinch of salt I reserve for news of spurious suspects, disagreement and discord between the two police forces, and other such fairy tales which can only be attributed to the ever present 'source' who is a proponent of the wee one's mantra that 'confusion is good'.

I await to see whatever freshly minted or rehashed distraction will shortly be unveiled in the UK's MSM in an attempt to divert attention from the resumption of the libel trial which will reportedly take place in the coming week.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by aquila on 02.03.14 20:24

@ultimaThule wrote:The remit of Operation Grange is to 'investigate the abduction as if it occurred in the UK' which should provide a clue, namely that the courts of England and Wales have jurisdiction in this matter as the only conclusion which can be reached when a 3 year old child is reported to have been abducted from her bed and there has been no credible sighting of her during a period of almost 7 years, is that what was a review of a cold case has become a proactive investigation into the child's murder.  

To this end, AR heads a MIT whose officers are free to interview and/or formally question British nationals wherever in the world they may be, to interview and/or formally question Portuguese nationals resident in the UK and, unless or until a JIT is established wherein Met police officers and those of the PJ will be free to operate coercively in both Portugal and the UK, to speak to those Portuguese residents who voluntarily make contact with officers of AR's team regardless of whether they are based in the Algarve or London. 

The McCanns' suit for libel against Dr Amaral and his 3 co-defendants is a civil matter, the proceedings and outcome of which have no bearing on the criminal investigations currently being undertaken by SY and the PJ.  

As, IMO, the McCanns have been systematically bleeding the lifestyle fund dry for purposes which I suspect have very little to do with expenditure on legal fees, I will sprinkle any reports of their imminent bankruptcy with the same pinch of salt I reserve for news of spurious suspects, disagreement and discord between the two police forces, and other such fairy tales which can only be attributed to the ever present 'source' who is a proponent of the wee one's mantra that 'confusion is good'.

I await to see whatever freshly minted or rehashed distraction will shortly be unveiled in the UK's MSM in an attempt to divert attention from the resumption of the libel trial which will reportedly take place in the coming week.
ultimaThule wrote:

The remit of Operation Grange is to 'investigate the abduction as if it occurred in the UK' which should provide a clue, namely that the courts of England and Wales have jurisdiction in this matter as the only conclusion which can be reached when a 3 year old child is reported to have been abducted from her bed and there has been no credible sighting of her during a period of almost 7 years, is that what was a review of a cold case has become a proactive investigation into the child's murder.  

To this end, AR heads a MIT whose officers are free to interview and/or formally question British nationals wherever in the world they may be, to interview and/or formally question Portuguese nationals resident in the UK and, unless or until a JIT is established wherein Met police officers and those of the PJ will be free to operate coercively in both Portugal and the UK, to speak to those Portuguese residents who voluntarily make contact with officers of AR's team regardless of whether they are based in the Algarve or London. 

................................................................................................

ultimaThule, are you absolutely certain of your statement? I'm curious as to the specific info you give on the powers of SY as no-one seems to know exactly what their powers are and there is much speculation on the forum. Do you have some sort of legal background/link to clarify this? I'd really appreciate it because I so want to understand this issue.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Guest on 02.03.14 21:44

great post petermac.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by Guest on 02.03.14 21:57

Bellisa wrote:great post petermac.
***
hear, hear!

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by diatribe on 02.03.14 22:18

@aquila wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:

The remit of Operation Grange is to 'investigate the abduction as if it occurred in the UK' which should provide a clue, namely that the courts of England and Wales have jurisdiction in this matter as the only conclusion which can be reached when a 3 year old child is reported to have been abducted from her bed and there has been no credible sighting of her during a period of almost 7 years, is that what was a review of a cold case has become a proactive investigation into the child's murder.  

To this end, AR heads a MIT whose officers are free to interview and/or formally question British nationals wherever in the world they may be, to interview and/or formally question Portuguese nationals resident in the UK and, unless or until a JIT is established wherein Met police officers and those of the PJ will be free to operate coercively in both Portugal and the UK, to speak to those Portuguese residents who voluntarily make contact with officers of AR's team regardless of whether they are based in the Algarve or London. 

................................................................................................

ultimaThule, are you absolutely certain of your statement? I'm curious as to the specific info you give on the powers of SY as no-one seems to know exactly what their powers are and there is much speculation on the forum. Do you have some sort of legal background/link to clarify this? I'd really appreciate it because I so want to understand this issue.

Petermac
''Nor do I.
The PJ are clearly looking at the circumstances of Madeleine's disappearance, and have stated officially and had recorded that they do not believe she was abducted by a stranger.
SY are, in my view, playing a game, and with the trashing of Tannerman have revealed that they too are not interested in Abduction by stranger.
The PJ Probably want to interview them all again, but can't because they won't attend voluntarily, and would claim "arguido" status and remain silent even if they did,
and there is not quite enough evidence to go for EAWs
SY probably want to interview them properly, but can't since they have no jurisdiction over the main offences committed in Portugal. 

And there's a hole in my bucket, Dear Liza, Dear Lisa.

So both forces are spending their time closing of all possible loopholes, eliminating every burglar, cleaner, pruner, white van man, heroin addict, and dead Paedo
so that what remains must be the truth"
And waiting for a sudden outbreak of common decency, or possibly fear of being locked up for Conspiracy to Pervert from just one prepared to tell.

They have to be able to, as we used to say "Charge on a denial".
In other words have the charge sheet prepared before the interview, so that the interview, under caution, in the presence of solicitor, is merely to give the opportunity to present mitigation.''

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by marconi on 03.03.14 0:51

Châteleine, I think the honoraire Minister of State was already 81, nearly 82 and the Dutch police are not telling anything.
I believe it was not a burgarly because the perpetrator did not take anything with him, her purse, money, etc
She fought back, the poor thing, and I hope there is DNA found under her nails. And I hope that there are enough CCTVs around in that town. Tragic, very tragic.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by ultimaThule on 03.03.14 4:09

The following is an extract from an exchange on Tuesday 25 February between TB and diatribe which can be found on pages 73-75 of the COPS AT WAR thread:

"diatribe wrote:  Returning briefly to Tony's correction of Wikipedia's translation as to why his private prosecution failed at the first hurdle on the grounds of it not being within the jurisdiction of the England and Wales judicial system. I find it interesting to note that his application was referred to the Attorney General in the first instance, when surely such matters would normally be decided by a stipendary Mag, or in the case of a lay Mag. the Clerk of the Court. (I'm on uncertain territory here and stand to be corrected).

Tony Bennett replied
: I see that since posting this you have found the exact words from the Magistrates Court's letter, which settles the argument: The case was rejected because I could not satisfy the Magistrates that they had jurisdiction. It would be unusual, but by no means unprecedented, for a Chief Clerk to consult a higher authority such as the Attorney-General's office about a tricky query. What amazed me at the time was the breakneck speed in which I received a reply. 

diatribe wrote
: Tony then goes on to state that the Attorney General made his decision and dispensed with his application swiftly, which is a clear indication that at this early stage in 2007, there was a distinct reluctance on the part of the British authorities to prosecute the McCanns in the UK even for the comparatively minor charge of child neglect.

Tony Bennett replied: Maybe, but not necessarily. See above.


diatribe wrote: Therefore, unless there has been a seismic change of attitude from the British authorities, it is extremely unlikely that recent CPS visits to their Portugese counterparts had anything to do with persuading them to relinquish jurisdiction rights over this matter.  As previously stated, it is my opinion that if there were ever any prosecution involving the McCanns in relation to the disappearance of their daughter, those proceedings would transpire in Portugal, as opposed to the UK. Further that the aforementioned would be in spite of the intervention of both the British gov. and police, not because of it.

Tony Bennett replied: It has already been mentioned, on another thread I think, that the British governement does have jurisdcition to try certain alleged crimes in this country, even though the crime occurred abroad. Murder was one. The rape and sexual abuse of minors was another. I forget what the third one was."
                                                                                              
This ------------------------------------------------------------------- signifies the end of TB's and diatribe's exchange

Without wishing to second guess him, it occurs to me that Tony's 'third one" may have been manslaughter but there are a number of other offences where specific statutes enable the UK to exercse extra-territorial jurisdiction when it is suspected these offences have been committed by British nationals abroad.  The offences and statutes are:

Murder and manslaughter: The Offences Against the Person Act 1861 subsections 9 and 10.

Sexual offences against children
: The Sexual Offences Act 2003 - NB a new section 72 was substituted by the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 which came into effect from 14 July 2008 onwards.

Fraud: The Fraud Act 2006 imposes extra territorial jurisdiction in respect of offences in subsections 1, 6, 7, 9 and 11 and dishonesty.  The Criminal Justice Act 1993 Part 1 continues to apply to the remaining unrepealed sections of the Theft Act 1968.

Terrorism: The Terrorism Act section 17 and subsections 59, 62-63.  Section 109 of the Anti-Terrorism and Security Act 2001 continues to provide extre-territorial jurisdiction in respect of offences committed wholly or partially before 1 July 2011.

Bribery: The Bribery Act 2010 repealed the common law and the statutory offences of corruption for offences committed wholly on or after 1 July 2011 and for those offences imposes extra-territorial jurisdiction.

If/when he reads the above, I trust it will be some consolation for Tony to know it's highly improbable a "top barrister" would have succeeded where he failed for the simple reason that the offence of child neglect when committed by British nationals abroad is not one where the UK has extra-territorial jurisdiction.

With regard to PeterMac's "SY probably want to interview them properly, but can't since they have no jurisdiction over the main offences committed in Portugal"; the issue of jurisdiction having been established (above), as I have made clear in my earlier post, AR and his team cannot act coercively in Portugal unless or until such time as a JIT is effected but, in any event, regardless of whether there is any discord between the Met and the PJ, I would not expect either force to pre-empt or prejudice the investigation of the other.

Should PeterMac read this thread, I trust he will be able to confirm that the letters 'MIT', which can be seen on the door through which AR walks into the incident room as shown on either the Crimewatch programme or its update, give probable cause to assume that homicide of a particular complexity known to the police as a Category A or Category B murder is being investigated by trained detectives, crime investigators, and Major Incident Room staff responsible for operating the HOLMES2 computerised system.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by ultimaThule on 03.03.14 4:53

@aquila wrote:ultimaThule wrote:

The remit of Operation Grange is to 'investigate the abduction as if it occurred in the UK' which should provide a clue, namely that the courts of England and Wales have jurisdiction in this matter as the only conclusion which can be reached when a 3 year old child is reported to have been abducted from her bed and there has been no credible sighting of her during a period of almost 7 years, is that what was a review of a cold case has become a proactive investigation into the child's murder.  

To this end, AR heads a MIT whose officers are free to interview and/or formally question British nationals wherever in the world they may be, to interview and/or formally question Portuguese nationals resident in the UK and, unless or until a JIT is established wherein Met police officers and those of the PJ will be free to operate coercively in both Portugal and the UK, to speak to those Portuguese residents who voluntarily make contact with officers of AR's team regardless of whether they are based in the Algarve or London. 

................................................................................................

ultimaThule, are you absolutely certain of your statement? I'm curious as to the specific info you give on the powers of SY as no-one seems to know exactly what their powers are and there is much speculation on the forum. Do you have some sort of legal background/link to clarify this? I'd really appreciate it because I so want to understand this issue.
Which statement would that be, aquila?  Fwiw, in considered matters of law I do not post in haste, I always state any uncertainty I may have with regard to various issues which may be raised therein, and I am exceedingly careful to avoid posting any information which could aid the defence of those who are responsible for heinous crimes against a three year old child.

Without wishing to give offence, you have been a member of this forum for considerably longer than I have and, having read many of your valuable contributions, it's clear to me that it is well within your capabilities to undertake your own research before questioning the veracity of the findings of others.

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Re: Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Post by marconi on 03.03.14 6:11

Uff!

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