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Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by mysterion on 15.01.14 13:43

With both cases, the actions of the parent/s were neglectful though not legally so in one case. What makes the McCann situation so much worse is the effect of that neglectfulness.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by lj on 15.01.14 14:03

@Mirage wrote:
@Ristretto wrote:
@Mirage wrote:
@Ristretto wrote:Just a few comments about the original article.

Gareth Morgan, the lawyer, seems to miss a few pertinent points.

The McCanns were specifically cleared of the relevant crime of abandonment by the Portuguese prosecutors in the Archival report, That is why they were not prosecuted - the Attorney General lays out at length the reasons they had not committed neglect under Portuguese law. It was fully investigated and it was found that there was no case to bring against them.

As for the UK, the McCanns were not under English law at the time, so it is of no business to a UK court. And no matter what happens in a foreign jurisdiction that cannot be precedent for an English court to follow. This lawyer is simply trying to create a class issue to defend a drunk driver and attempting to deflect blame from her.

The reality is that the McCanns' actions in leaving Madeleine alone should have been a clear warning to everyone (including this woman) rather than an excuse for her to do the same.

The main issues are that:

1) The McCanns were not in the UK, so there is no reason to say couple X in another country did Y and were not prosecuted. It is not actually legally relevant to the case being brought in this UK court.

2) The McCanns were not drunk. No witness or police officer reports them as being so.

3) The McCanns were not in the process of committing another crime i.e drink driving, driving dangerously or leaving the scene of an accident and failing to report it..

4) The McCanns were fifty metres away, this woman was miles away

5) The McCanns left their children asleep in their beds, not in the living room.

8) Gareth Morgan, the woman's lawyer, claims she was absent only 20 minutes but she was heavily drunk (2 and a half times the drink drive limit) when the police eventually caught up with her after she fled the scene. So she had either been intoxicated whilst at home with this vulnerable child or had been drinking whilst driving. Her intoxication is clear evidence of neglecting her son.

7) Whilst Gareth Morgan cannot commit slander because he is in speaking in court (and therefore there is no possibility that the McCanns can take action against him), he can get into serious trouble as he has misled the court, by stating the McCanns were guilty of neglect. In the context in which he is speaking he is suggesting that they were guilty of the crime of neglect yet they were never charged or prosecuted for that crime and therefore are not guilty. He has lied.. Lawyers cannot lie about known facts to judges or juries. It would not be surprising to find that he is reported to the Solicitiors' Disicplinary Tribunal.

Just when you thought sophistry had reached its zenith, another invitation to pass through distorting mirrors and enter world McCann.

Sorry, do you have an actual response to the points I made? Or are you going to pretend the points don't exist?

No, I don't.

The hour I would spend answering your points is not worth the personal effort to me  or to the cause of justice in general. One recognises intractability when one meets it these days. There is no meeting point. No launch pad of premise. To enter dialogue with you would be the equivalent of slugging it out in a boxing ring. Not something I'm prepared to do .

I am entitled to draw a line in the sand to show readers coming to the forum that I disagree with your world view. Rather like Kate McCann herself - see I'm learning - I  knowingly choose to answer "no comment".

Your points exist. That is all that should matter to you. They have arrived on an energetic wave of unmistakeable signals. Readers read them and agree or disagree.  I disagree with your thinking en bloc.

The fact that I issue a grunt in response will have to suffice. Grunts can sometimes be eloquent, you know,  when moral relativism raises its ugly head .

My existential choice today, therefore, is that for 24 hours, at least,  the Mcs, and any wider evidence of their skewed morals, shall not exist in my world.


I started on answering. Then I realized he was just baiting. I hope he'll let his kids go for a sleepover at the McCanns.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by suzyjohnson on 15.01.14 14:08

@Ristretto wrote:
The main issues are that:

1) The McCanns were not in the UK, so there is no reason to say couple X in another country did Y and were not prosecuted. It is not actually legally relevant to the case being brought in this UK court.

2) The McCanns were not drunk. No witness or police officer reports them as being so.

The McCann's said they had been drinking before they went out that evening, they had more to drink at the Tapas (the restaurant staff said they usually had about 4 bottles of wine over dinner, so that's roughly about half a bottle of wine each) and presumably, had MM not gone missing, they would have continued drinking on that Thurs evening. On at least one previous evening they had stayed in the Tapas bar until 11.45 pm. Is that roughly equal to the amount of alcohol consumed by the woman in Wales? 

3) The McCanns were not in the process of committing another crime i.e drink driving, driving dangerously or leaving the scene of an accident and failing to report it..

Actually we don't know that, the policeman in charge of investigating the case appears to think they were

4) The McCanns were fifty metres away, this woman was miles away

From what I have read the woman intended to be 20 mins there and back, the McCanns said they checked on their children every half hour, neither risk is acceptable, and in fact something happened during their absence in both cases

8) Gareth Morgan, the woman's lawyer, claims she was absent only 20 minutes but she was heavily drunk (2 and a half times the drink drive limit) when the police eventually caught up with her after she fled the scene. So she had either been intoxicated whilst at home with this vulnerable child or had been drinking whilst driving. Her intoxication is clear evidence of neglecting her son.

Also, the McCanns (two doctors) have stated that what they had done 'was well within the bounds of responsible parenting' 'we've had so many letters from people who have done the same thing' and made reference in the past that what had happened to them, Madeleine going missing, was so very, very unlikely to happen to anyone, so far from learning from their example, the woman from Wales may have believed that what she was doing was perfectly acceptable 

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Jemmied_Shatter on 15.01.14 14:13

@tasprin wrote:This mum was arrested, taken to a police station and cautioned for child neglect. She left her two-year-old home alone for 20 minutes to walk her other children to school This was a one off situation, a friend usually walked them but was sick and unable to take them on that day. The little boy was unharmed.

Mum of home-alone tot rescued from attic window 'a good parent'

Croydon Advertiser
July 20, 2013

A HOUSEWIFE whose two-year-old son climbed out of an attic window after she left him home alone, is a "very good parent", her husband has said.
This terrifying image shows the toddler dangling from a top floor window nearly 20ft above the ground. The boy climbed out on to the ledge after being left at home while his mother took her other children to school at 9.15am on Monday.

Horrified neighbour Tracey McLaren spotted the toddler sitting on the window ledge and tried to keep him calm before the fire brigade arrived. As police forced entry through the front door of the house in Egerton Road, South Norwood, firefighters used a ladder to climb up and safely rescue the child. The child's mother, 37, returned home after 20 minutes and was arrested and taken to a police station before being cautioned for child neglect. Speaking at the family home, her husband told the Advertiser what happened was a "one off" and would never happen again. We have agreed not to identify the family.

The father-of-four, who was at work in Harrow when the drama unfolded, explained his wife had "panicked" after the friend who usually walks their children to school had called in sick. "Most of the kids had managed to wake up and get ready pretty quickly but our youngest son didn't want to get up," he said. "Time was ticking so – and this was a mishap, once in a life time – she chanced it and took them to school without him.
"We're humans, we all make mistakes."
The inquisitive toddler woke up and climbed the stairs to the attic, which the family use as a storage room. "We had put lots of boxes there to cover [the window] but he took it all out," said his father. "There were all these bags and he was even throwing things outside as well. He cleared everything to get outside. I don't know how he did it."

While out on the ledge, the little explorer acted as though nothing was wrong; waving and saying hello to the crowd of people gathering outside. The couple have since been recovering from the shock at home, though their son is as bubbly and adventurous as ever. "I could understand why the police punished her," said his father, "but it would have been nice if she had been let off because it was a one off."
"We've got four children and it's a very difficult situation with what she has been through. I fully support her. She's a very good parent.
"Being a housewife is the toughest job in the world. Particularly with our children, it's impossible."
"This was like a 'never event'. Something which should never happen but sometimes does. People make mistakes. It will never happen again. It's a warning about what can happen. You risk it and you get hit, unfortunately." Inspector Harvey Martin said the decision to leave the child at home had been "extremely misguided". He added: "Fortunately in this case, the child came to no harm, but were it not for members of the public seeing him in danger and contacting emergency services, we could have been talking about a much more serious incident."
http://legacy.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/Mum-home-tot-rescued-attic-window-good-parent/story-19542364-detail/story.html#ixzz2qTAt2os7


Well it is Croydon. Y'know that town of exemplary virtue just south of London. Mr 

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by ultimaThule on 15.01.14 14:18

'Would you let your kids go for a sleepover at the McCanns?' has no doubt been a subject of debate among numerous Rothley parents, lj.

Unless they change their names and emigrate at some future date, the McCann twins are unlikely to experience anything approaching a 'normal' life free of pointing fingers and speculation, both covert and overt.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by ultimaThule on 15.01.14 14:33

@Jemmied_Shatter wrote:< snip >
Well it is Croydon. Y'know that town of exemplary virtue just south of London. Mr

It would appear that a cage or two has been thoroughly rattled again.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Dr What on 15.01.14 14:34

Sadly for the whole McCann family, it almost appears as though the parents have decided that their deceptions,half-truths, evasions have been worth it, since they have been able to finance their lifestyle and no doubt that of the twins in the future on the back of the Fund.It has been a calculated trade-off.The McCann name has come to represent very negative aspects of life, but as you say, the twins can change their names if necessary.
In short, the deception has proved very lucrative at this moment in time.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Searcher on 15.01.14 14:49


@Ristretto wrote:
Also, the McCanns (two doctors) have stated that what they had done 'was well within the bounds of responsible parenting' 'we've had so many letters from people who have done the same thing' and made reference in the past that what had happened to them, Madeleine going missing, was so very, very unlikely to happen to anyone, so far from learning from their example, the woman from Wales may have believed that what she was doing was perfectly acceptable 

".. so very, very unlikely to happen to anyone"; yet the "very, very real possibility" - even probability - of small children waking in abject terror, alone and in a darkened room - even leaving aside the possibility of falling, hurting themselves, trying to get out of the apartment - is left out of the equation entirely.  This can only be seen as denial at the very least.  From doctors?   I am grateful that this is being aired and discussed properly here.  Well done to the lawyer who raised the issue in court.  About time.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Guest on 15.01.14 14:49

It must really rankle with the McCanns that people can see past their apparent legal absolution with regards to the subject of neglect and will not forgive the moral guilt of leaving three young children unattended.

To make the situation even more humiliating, they probably didn't even leave their children alone but they need us all to think they did otherwise their alibi falls apart.



With regard to taking care of pre-school children, I'm reminded of the following quote from a Doctor who is arguably more famous than the McCanns:

They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back. Don't look away. And don't blink. Good Luck.




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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Guest on 15.01.14 14:53

That sounds like something out of Doctor Who - the Weeping Angels?!

Yes I can remember leaving my son for a minute in his pushchair in the living room not strapped in. He dived headlong out of it onto the stone hearth......

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by SixMillionQuid on 15.01.14 15:04

@Ristretto wrote:
The reality is that the McCanns' actions in leaving Madeleine alone should have been a clear warning to everyone (including this woman) rather than an excuse for her to do the same.

None of that matters as the McCanns 'got away with' being prosecuted for neglect. The other T7 left their children under the same circumstances and they're still around (including the twins). So the only lesson that may be learned is...

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by suzyjohnson on 15.01.14 15:09

@Searcher wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:

Also, the McCanns (two doctors) have stated that what they had done 'was well within the bounds of responsible parenting' 'we've had so many letters from people who have done the same thing' and made reference in the past that what had happened to them, Madeleine going missing, was so very, very unlikely to happen to anyone, so far from learning from their example, the woman from Wales may have believed that what she was doing was perfectly acceptable 

".. so very, very unlikely to happen to anyone"; yet the "very, very real possibility" - even probability - of small children waking in abject terror, alone and in an darkened room - even leaving aside the possibility of falling, hurting themselves, trying to get out of the apartment - is left out of the equation entirely.  This can only be seen as denial at the very least.  From doctors?   I am grateful that this is being aired and discussed properly here.  Well done to the lawyer who raised the issue in court.  About time.

Searcher can you edit your post avove, just to avoid confusion, that's actually my quote in response to Ristretto's post (I have altered it here)

Anything could have happened to those children.When asked about the possibility of fire, they said that's one reason they left the door open so that Madeleine could go and look for them in the dark. Incredible.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by SixMillionQuid on 15.01.14 15:11

From the archive report

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html


It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:
 
"1 – Whoever places another person's life in danger,
 
a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or
 
b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"
 
This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf. In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent. The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.
 
The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.


Didn't Kate discuss the issue of security with Mrs Payne before the dissaperance?

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Searcher on 15.01.14 15:27

".. so very, very unlikely to happen to anyone"; yet the "very, very real possibility" - even probability - of small children waking in abject terror, alone and in an darkened room - even leaving aside the possibility of falling, hurting themselves, trying to get out of the apartment - is left out of the equation entirely.  This can only be seen as denial at the very least.  From doctors?   I am grateful that this is being aired and discussed properly here.  Well done to the lawyer who raised the issue in court.  About time.

Searcher can you edit your post avove, just to avoid confusion, that's actually my quote in response to Ristretto's post (I have altered it here)

Anything could have happened to those children.When asked about the possibility of fire, they said that's one reason they left the door open so that Madeleine could go and look for them in the dark. Incredible.
Many apologies Suzyjohnson - I hope it is now corrected.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by tasprin on 15.01.14 15:38

@Ristretto wrote:
The reality is that the McCanns' actions in leaving Madeleine alone should have been a clear warning to everyone (including this woman) rather than an excuse for her to do the same.

Why should the McCanns actions be a clear warning to everyone? They have spent seven years impressing upon us that repeatedly leaving three toddlers alone in a building on a street corner was well within the bounds of responsible parenting and the media has backed them to the hilt. Yet, IF this is what happened, the Madeleine has certainly come to very serious harm as a result, and is probably dead. But the McCanns were not prosecuted and according to them, their lawyer and the media, they are responsible parents and not to blame in any way for leaving their children alone. The Welsh lawyer was quite right to highlight the McCann case in defence of his client - what's good for the goose!

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by suzyjohnson on 15.01.14 15:44

@Searcher wrote:
".. so very, very unlikely to happen to anyone"; yet the "very, very real possibility" - even probability - of small children waking in abject terror, alone and in an darkened room - even leaving aside the possibility of falling, hurting themselves, trying to get out of the apartment - is left out of the equation entirely.  This can only be seen as denial at the very least.  From doctors?   I am grateful that this is being aired and discussed properly here.  Well done to the lawyer who raised the issue in court.  About time.

Searcher can you edit your post avove, just to avoid confusion, that's actually my quote in response to Ristretto's post (I have altered it here)

Anything could have happened to those children.When asked about the possibility of fire, they said that's one reason they left the door open so that Madeleine could go and look for them in the dark. Incredible.
Many apologies Suzyjohnson - I hope it is now corrected.

Still wrong on your original post, sorry. It's my quote not Ristretto's, it's just that it could get complicated if people respond to it

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by mysterion on 15.01.14 16:06

That excuse about the open door must have been hurried because they would know as doctors that more people die from the smoke than the fire and death is very quick. In any case, what about the safety of the twins?

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Mirage on 15.01.14 16:08

@tasprin wrote:
@Ristretto wrote:
The reality is that the McCanns' actions in leaving Madeleine alone should have been a clear warning to everyone (including this woman) rather than an excuse for her to do the same.

Why should the McCanns actions be a clear warning to everyone? They have spent seven years impressing upon us that repeatedly leaving three toddlers alone in a building on a street corner was well within the bounds of responsible parenting and the media has backed them to the hilt. Yet, IF this is what happened, the child has certainly come to very serious harm as a result, and is probably dead. The lawyer was right.

Unbelievable, warped logic. In a minute we'll be hearing a deal was struck on the proviso that the McCanns labour the rest of their days educating the masses: "If it can happen to a golden couple it can happen to you too ". Why, what is this I see, snaking its way down to Portugal  - a pantechnicon, bearing the message "LOOK, LISTEN and LEARN ,  riddled with coin slots. and bunting made of donation envelopes. Perhaps that's what Gerry meant by the Wider Agenda.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 15.01.14 16:12

REPLY TO RISTRETTO:

1) You suggest I am ignoring some of your points. I nor anyone else, is compelled to reply to each and every point. It is my choice what I reply to.

2) Regards the drinking: whether you (or anyone else ) disagree with my view that if you are responsible for toddlers you shouldn't drink enough to put you anywhere near intoxication (using drink driving levels, as this is a clear marker of where judgement can become compromised) I maintain the right to my view. I believe someone needs to be sober enough to drive to A & E should the need arise, not be lacking in sound judgement, or under the soporific effects, in case you cannot hear your child in the night should they need you. Just because plenty of people drink when looking after their children doesn't make it responsible. Personally, I think children deserve better from those caring for them. 

The McCanns acted in a selfish and stupid way, end of.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Guest on 15.01.14 16:16

Where is Ristretto - has he left the building?

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Guest on 15.01.14 16:25

Ladyinred wrote:Where is Ristretto - has he left the building?

He's gone to buy some PAYG phones

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by mysterion on 15.01.14 16:30

An important difference between drinking at home with young children and being in a local bar is the distraction factor. In my experience, Tapas bars are often noisy and lively with background music. It is one of the reasons why people enjoy them. So even if your child cried out for you it is questionable whether you would hear her even if quite close geographically.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Guest on 15.01.14 17:17

Have I grasped this correctly ??    Ristretto is possibly a shill or troll ?     I am still learning.     thinking

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Dr What on 15.01.14 17:32

Who knows what it was.
Probably engaged in a meaningful conversation with Cuddle Cat whilst we sit here waiting for enlightenment.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Mirage on 15.01.14 17:33

daffodil wrote:Have I grasped this correctly ??       Ristretto is possibly a shill or troll ?         I am still learning.        thinking

A hybrid, I think, daffodil. A shrill?  big grin 

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