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Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by aiyoyo on 14.01.14 16:27

@Tangled Web wrote:Would anyone care to speculate as to the reasons why this story has made it into the public domain?

Is it because Clarence is no longer fighting for them?

Dunno.

He's no longer employed by the Fund if published accounts is accurate.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by mysterion on 14.01.14 16:36

Can`t do the Daily Mail link but it is well worth reading. The anti-McCann comments are overwhelming.See Oakeydokey post above. 

Certainly raises the spirits.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by sallypelt on 14.01.14 16:40

@plebgate wrote:The Welsh lady was spared jail, so did the magistrates agree with the lawyer on a point of law or for some other reason?

Plebgate, there are no magistrates in a Crown court, only those on the jury......and the judge, of course


Opps, my mistake plebgate. I thought you were asking if the JUDGE agreed with the magistrates. I really need to read more carefully  spin soz 

And yes, she was tried in a magistrates' court, not a Crown court.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Daisy on 14.01.14 16:40

@Okeydokey wrote:
I just took a look! It's amazing the number of up arrows for those agreeing with Gareth Morgan drawing comparison and/or pointing out the McCanns left three children, not just one.

I have never seen such numbers in such a short time - they must have opened the floodgates. There are some with nearly 5000 up arrows.
I agree Okeydokey, this story has drawn an amazing public response and certainly not in favour of the McCann's.

 All organised on 'hate sites' egged on by PeterMac though. According to one of the cesspits.  laughat 

And this little pearl of wisdom from the lovely BB1

 "As usual, the haters are the abductor's best friends. And it wouldn't be at all surprising if the chavvy drunk driver turned out to be a hate site member."

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by aiyoyo on 14.01.14 16:43

@ultimaThule wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@Jemmied_Shatter wrote:I think we can comfortably request a ruling statement from both regional Social Services Child Protection departments. The well publicised McCann version as being "well within the boundaries of responsible parenting" versus the drunk mother who left her son for a short time to drive out and get a takeaway. .  
Perhaps now is the time for the "Professional" who told the Mccanns that it was "well within the bounds" . .  to step forward and to explain exactly what s/he meant.
The McCanns must remember who s/he is, surely.
Mitchell can handle the details.
It seems possible the professional in question may have been Angus McBride but please don't quote me on that, PeterMac, until I've gone through the various and assorted information that's 'out there' as it may be more properly attributable to self-styled 'trauma counsellor' Alan Pike who, despite being an unqualified social worker, apparently worked for some years in the field of child protection for a local authority.

Mdm Rebekah Brooks was seen on CCTV entering Angus's office 2 days before her interview appt with the Police.  Angus McBridge appears to be reputation damage limitation lawyer, so maybe.

Alan Pike, hired directly by the Mccanns (undoubtedly paid by the Fund) working closely with Kate in particular, befriending the Mccanns may also come under the suspect category as having given mccanns such advice.

That said, since Mccanns could not and did not supply the name of the professional, it could well be something they plucked out of thin air - something they can't support if under scrutiny in Court.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by plebgate on 14.01.14 16:45

@sallypelt wrote:
@plebgate wrote:The Welsh lady was spared jail, so did the magistrates agree with the lawyer on a point of law or for some other reason?

Plebgate, there are no magistrates in a Crown court, only those on the jury......and the judge, of course
Thanks SallyP.  I thought I read it was a magistrate in the first report about it, but I wonder then if the judge spared her jail on  a point of law or for some other reason?

ETA - just seen your second post SallyP smilie

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by NickE on 14.01.14 16:57

O.T but....
Have heard rumors that Gerry is a Freemason,does anyone know if true?

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Okeydokey on 14.01.14 20:50

@Tangled Web wrote:Would anyone care to speculate as to the reasons why this story has made it into the public domain?

Is it because Clarence is no longer fighting for them?

It was said in open court and therefore enjoys absolute privilege as far as I know. Same if an MP stood up and said it in Parliament.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by sallypelt on 15.01.14 0:12

It even found its way to Portugal:

Advogado britânico acusa pais de ‘Maddie’ de negligência

Gareth Morgan recorreu ao caso do desaparecimento de Madeleine McCann para defender, em tribunal, uma mãe que deixou o filho sozinho em casa.
O advogado britânico Gareth Morgan acusou os pais de 'Maddie', Kate e Gerry McCann, de negligência enquanto defendia, em tribunal, uma mãe que deixou o filho, de cinco anos e com Síndrome de Asperger, sozinho em casa à noite.

“Os pais de Madeleine McCann são muito mais culpados de negligência infantil por deixarem a sua filha sozinha do que a minha cliente. E eles nunca foram processados. A mãe, neste caso, está envergonhada e arrependida de ter colocado a criança em risco”, argumentou Gareth Morgan em tribunal, avança o jornal ‘Daily Mirror’.

Face à argumentação utilizada por Gareth Morgan, e uma vez que a sua cliente admitiu o ato de neglicência, o tribunal acabou por não condenar a mulher, de 44 anos.

Rothley Leics, um amigo próximo do casal McCann, já reagiu às declarações do advogado, acrescentando que “os comentários são insensíveis” e que os pais de 'Maddie' “vão ficar furiosos”.

Recorde-se que Madeleine McCann, de três anos, desapareceu depois de Kate e Gerry a terem deixado sozinha num apartamento na Praia da Luz, no Algarve, em maio de 2007.

GOOGLE TRANSLATION:

British lawyer blames parents ' Maddie ' negligence

Gareth Morgan appealed the case of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann to defend in court , a mother who left her son home alone .
The British lawyer Gareth Morgan accused 's parents ' Maddie ' , Kate and Gerry McCann , neglect while defending in court a mother who left her son , five years and with Asperger Syndrome , home alone at night.

" The parents of Madeleine McCann are far more guilty of child neglect for leaving his daughter alone than my client. And they were never prosecuted. The mother in this case is ashamed and sorry to have put the child at risk, " Gareth Morgan argued in court advances the newspaper ' Daily Mirror' .

Face the arguments deployed by Gareth Morgan , and once that his client admitted the act of negligence , the court eventually did not condemn the woman , 44 years.

Rothley Leics , a close friend of the McCanns , has already responded to the statements of counsel, adding that " the comments are insensitive " and that the parents ' Maddie ' " will be furious ."

Remember that Madeleine McCann , three years , disappeared after Kate and Gerry had left alone in an apartment in Praia da Luz in the Algarve in May 2007.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/


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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by jeanmonroe on 15.01.14 1:32

Shamefully 'snipped'


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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by tigger on 15.01.14 7:10

A year or so ago  a British couple had their child taken into temporary care in Portugal.  Iirc they were both drunk and the child was alone and crying for some time.

Tabloids did their best with cruel Portuguese but TM didn't touch it.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by tigger on 15.01.14 7:13

@Daisy wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:
I just took a look! It's amazing the number of up arrows for those agreeing with Gareth Morgan drawing comparison and/or pointing out the McCanns left three children, not just one.

I have never seen such numbers in such a short time - they must have opened the floodgates. There are some with nearly 5000 up arrows.
I agree Okeydokey, this story has drawn an amazing public response and certainly not in favour of the McCann's.

 All organised on 'hate sites' egged on by PeterMac though. According to one of the cesspits.  laughat 

And this little pearl of wisdom from the lovely BB1

 "As usual, the haters are the abductor's best friends. And it wouldn't be at all surprising if the chavvy drunk driver turned out to be a hate site member."


Taking conspiracy theory to a whole new level!  spit coffee

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by flamingboy on 15.01.14 7:16

@tigger wrote:A year or so ago  a British couple had their child taken into temporary care in Portugal.  Iirc they were both drunk and the child was alone and crying for some time.  


Any parent/s that places a child / children into potential danger by leaving them unattended should be made an example of, named and shamed along with the full force of the law coming down on them.

I don't care who they are or how 'high profile' they are.  It's disgraceful to say the least.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by PeterMac on 15.01.14 8:19

The story and comments have been whooshed from the Olive Press.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by tigger on 15.01.14 8:33

@PeterMac wrote:The story and comments have been whooshed from the Olive Press.

Well, that's Clark off my Christmas list, not that he was ever on it but this simply confirms my first impressions of this 'journalist'.
He does what he's told to do imo.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 15.01.14 9:14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uD1n-1hUvow

I think this video is worth a reviewing. Has anyone kept up to date with any recent reporting in the Irish press?

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by PeterMac on 15.01.14 9:20

@tigger wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:The story and comments have been whooshed from the Olive Press.

Well, that's Clark off my Christmas list, not that he was ever on it but this simply confirms my first impressions of this 'journalist'.
He does what he's told to do imo.
He used to be thrall to NI, but more recently seems to have branched out on his own a bit more.
This one is strange, because for a couple of days they allowed restrained comments.
The ones they allowed did not mention the McCanns by name, but spoke in more circumspect ways, about doctors and leaving the door open so that the police did not have to break in . . .

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Ristretto on 15.01.14 9:48

Just a few comments about the original article.

Gareth Morgan, the lawyer, seems to miss a few pertinent points.

The McCanns were specifically cleared of the relevant crime of abandonment by the Portuguese prosecutors in the Archival report, That is why they were not prosecuted - the Attorney General lays out at length the reasons they had not committed neglect under Portuguese law. It was fully investigated and it was found that there was no case to bring against them.

As for the UK, the McCanns were not under English law at the time, so it is of no business to a UK court. And no matter what happens in a foreign jurisdiction that cannot be precedent for an English court to follow. This lawyer is simply trying to create a class issue to defend a drunk driver and attempting to deflect blame from her.

The reality is that the McCanns' actions in leaving Madeleine alone should have been a clear warning to everyone (including this woman) rather than an excuse for her to do the same.

The main issues are that:

1) The McCanns were not in the UK, so there is no reason to say couple X in another country did Y and were not prosecuted. It is not actually legally relevant to the case being brought in this UK court.

2) The McCanns were not drunk. No witness or police officer reports them as being so.

3) The McCanns were not in the process of committing another crime i.e drink driving, driving dangerously or leaving the scene of an accident and failing to report it..

4) The McCanns were fifty metres away, this woman was miles away

5) The McCanns left their children asleep in their beds, not in the living room.

8) Gareth Morgan, the woman's lawyer, claims she was absent only 20 minutes but she was heavily drunk (2 and a half times the drink drive limit) when the police eventually caught up with her after she fled the scene. So she had either been intoxicated whilst at home with this vulnerable child or had been drinking whilst driving. Her intoxication is clear evidence of neglecting her son.

7) Whilst Gareth Morgan cannot commit slander because he is in speaking in court (and therefore there is no possibility that the McCanns can take action against him), he can get into serious trouble as he has misled the court, by stating the McCanns were guilty of neglect. In the context in which he is speaking he is suggesting that they were guilty of the crime of neglect yet they were never charged or prosecuted for that crime and therefore are not guilty. He has lied.. Lawyers cannot lie about known facts to judges or juries. It would not be surprising to find that he is reported to the Solicitiors' Disicplinary Tribunal.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Guest on 15.01.14 9:50

Never seen that clip before smoke and mirrors.
Did you notice Gerrys reaction to Kates answer at 3.20 ish? Kate says 'she could be closer to us in the UK for all we know' (not exact quote sorry).

The interview was 47days after Madeleine went missing.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Guest on 15.01.14 9:56

To add,
Views are still mixed in Ireland about the parents,the independent newspaper often reports on the case and for a rubbish broadsheet I find their mccann articles quite surprising.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Mirage on 15.01.14 9:58

@Ristretto wrote:Just a few comments about the original article.

Gareth Morgan, the lawyer, seems to miss a few pertinent points.

The McCanns were specifically cleared of the relevant crime of abandonment by the Portuguese prosecutors in the Archival report, That is why they were not prosecuted - the Attorney General lays out at length the reasons they had not committed neglect under Portuguese law. It was fully investigated and it was found that there was no case to bring against them.

As for the UK, the McCanns were not under English law at the time, so it is of no business to a UK court. And no matter what happens in a foreign jurisdiction that cannot be precedent for an English court to follow. This lawyer is simply trying to create a class issue to defend a drunk driver and attempting to deflect blame from her.

The reality is that the McCanns' actions in leaving Madeleine alone should have been a clear warning to everyone (including this woman) rather than an excuse for her to do the same.

The main issues are that:

1) The McCanns were not in the UK, so there is no reason to say couple X in another country did Y and were not prosecuted. It is not actually legally relevant to the case being brought in this UK court.

2) The McCanns were not drunk. No witness or police officer reports them as being so.

3) The McCanns were not in the process of committing another crime i.e drink driving, driving dangerously or leaving the scene of an accident and failing to report it..

4) The McCanns were fifty metres away, this woman was miles away

5) The McCanns left their children asleep in their beds, not in the living room.

8) Gareth Morgan, the woman's lawyer, claims she was absent only 20 minutes but she was heavily drunk (2 and a half times the drink drive limit) when the police eventually caught up with her after she fled the scene. So she had either been intoxicated whilst at home with this vulnerable child or had been drinking whilst driving. Her intoxication is clear evidence of neglecting her son.

7) Whilst Gareth Morgan cannot commit slander because he is in speaking in court (and therefore there is no possibility that the McCanns can take action against him), he can get into serious trouble as he has misled the court, by stating the McCanns were guilty of neglect. In the context in which he is speaking he is suggesting that they were guilty of the crime of neglect yet they were never charged or prosecuted for that crime and therefore are not guilty. He has lied.. Lawyers cannot lie about known facts to judges or juries. It would not be surprising to find that he is reported to the Solicitiors' Disicplinary Tribunal.

Just when you thought sophistry had reached its zenith, another invitation to pass through distorting mirrors and enter world McCann.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 15.01.14 10:14

Bellisa wrote:Never seen that clip before smoke and mirrors.
Did you notice Gerrys reaction to Kates answer at 3.20 ish? Kate says 'she could be closer to us in the UK for all we know' (not exact quote sorry).

The interview was 47days after Madeleine went missing.

What strikes me at 2:30 is Gerry seems to struggle a little to describe Madeleine, it seems like he is fishing around to find the words to describe his daughter. Then at around 2:38 Kate says they have a "very special relationship with Madeleine", listen to the emphasis on the video clip. Why is she trying to imply that their special relationship is above and beyond any other loving parent? Which appears to be the implication.

Then when asked about the criticism, Gerry at 2:50 says no-one can hurt them more than they have hurt themselves, unless your name is Goncalo it seems. Then at 3:08 referring to themselves as being very responsible parents, he starts saying "ex…" - was he going to use the word extremely, or excellent? Why did he change tack? Before going on to say that what they did, they didn't think was in any way irresponsible. Would he think A.N.Other irresponsible for making the same choice? Under other circumstances, I hardly see a pair of Doctors condoning this choice in others, if they were in the role of observer, the way the news story panned out.

I really can't help but feel every statement is uttered with the intention to distort and abdicate responsibility, rather than be a natural out-flow in response to the questions.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Ristretto on 15.01.14 10:45

@Mirage wrote:
@Ristretto wrote:Just a few comments about the original article.

Gareth Morgan, the lawyer, seems to miss a few pertinent points.

The McCanns were specifically cleared of the relevant crime of abandonment by the Portuguese prosecutors in the Archival report, That is why they were not prosecuted - the Attorney General lays out at length the reasons they had not committed neglect under Portuguese law. It was fully investigated and it was found that there was no case to bring against them.

As for the UK, the McCanns were not under English law at the time, so it is of no business to a UK court. And no matter what happens in a foreign jurisdiction that cannot be precedent for an English court to follow. This lawyer is simply trying to create a class issue to defend a drunk driver and attempting to deflect blame from her.

The reality is that the McCanns' actions in leaving Madeleine alone should have been a clear warning to everyone (including this woman) rather than an excuse for her to do the same.

The main issues are that:

1) The McCanns were not in the UK, so there is no reason to say couple X in another country did Y and were not prosecuted. It is not actually legally relevant to the case being brought in this UK court.

2) The McCanns were not drunk. No witness or police officer reports them as being so.

3) The McCanns were not in the process of committing another crime i.e drink driving, driving dangerously or leaving the scene of an accident and failing to report it..

4) The McCanns were fifty metres away, this woman was miles away

5) The McCanns left their children asleep in their beds, not in the living room.

8) Gareth Morgan, the woman's lawyer, claims she was absent only 20 minutes but she was heavily drunk (2 and a half times the drink drive limit) when the police eventually caught up with her after she fled the scene. So she had either been intoxicated whilst at home with this vulnerable child or had been drinking whilst driving. Her intoxication is clear evidence of neglecting her son.

7) Whilst Gareth Morgan cannot commit slander because he is in speaking in court (and therefore there is no possibility that the McCanns can take action against him), he can get into serious trouble as he has misled the court, by stating the McCanns were guilty of neglect. In the context in which he is speaking he is suggesting that they were guilty of the crime of neglect yet they were never charged or prosecuted for that crime and therefore are not guilty. He has lied.. Lawyers cannot lie about known facts to judges or juries. It would not be surprising to find that he is reported to the Solicitiors' Disicplinary Tribunal.

Just when you thought sophistry had reached its zenith, another invitation to pass through distorting mirrors and enter world McCann.

Sorry, do you have an actual response to the points I made? Or are you going to pretend the points don't exist?

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 15.01.14 11:10

@Ristretto wrote:Just a few comments about the original article.

Gareth Morgan, the lawyer, seems to miss a few pertinent points.

The McCanns were specifically cleared of the relevant crime of abandonment by the Portuguese prosecutors in the Archival report, That is why they were not prosecuted - the Attorney General lays out at length the reasons they had not committed neglect under Portuguese law. It was fully investigated and it was found that there was no case to bring against them.

As for the UK, the McCanns were not under English law at the time, so it is of no business to a UK court. And no matter what happens in a foreign jurisdiction that cannot be precedent for an English court to follow. This lawyer is simply trying to create a class issue to defend a drunk driver and attempting to deflect blame from her.

The reality is that the McCanns' actions in leaving Madeleine alone should have been a clear warning to everyone (including this woman) rather than an excuse for her to do the same.

The main issues are that:

1) The McCanns were not in the UK, so there is no reason to say couple X in another country did Y and were not prosecuted. It is not actually legally relevant to the case being brought in this UK court.


2) The McCanns were not drunk. No witness or police officer reports them as being so. They may not have been reported as being drunk, but they admit to drinking before going out, Gerry had a beer and wine before going to the restaurant. There is a good chance that he was over the drink drive limit, and regardless of whether he was going to drive a car, they were still responsible for three toddlers. Is it responsible for both parents to be consuming alcohol whilst being responsible for three tiny children? Opinions on this will vary, but I guarantee there will be some people who think it irresponsible. 

3) The McCanns were not in the process of committing another crime i.e drink driving, driving dangerously or leaving the scene of an accident and failing to report it.. 

4) The McCanns were fifty metres away, this woman was miles away As the crow flies, but we know as fact sight and sound were not possible. The actual travelling distance on foot was substantially greater. The distance as the crow flies is completely immaterial in this instance, the time it would require to physically reach the children and the fact that danger could not be seen or heard are the ONLY material facts relating to the distance.

5) The McCanns left their children asleep in their beds, not in the living room. There is no material difference, especially in a single story apartment.

8) Gareth Morgan, the woman's lawyer, claims she was absent only 20 minutes but she was heavily drunk (2 and a half times the drink drive limit) when the police eventually caught up with her after she fled the scene. So she had either been intoxicated whilst at home with this vulnerable child or had been drinking whilst driving. Her intoxication is clear evidence of neglecting her son. The McCanns had more than one drink, thus placing them at the level of intoxication regarding drink driving levels. Any more than that and it could be argued that the level of blood alcohol combined with responsibility of three toddlers who were out of sight and sound is clear evidence of neglect.

7) Whilst Gareth Morgan cannot commit slander because he is in speaking in court (and therefore there is no possibility that the McCanns can take action against him), he can get into serious trouble as he has misled the court, by stating the McCanns were guilty of neglect. In the context in which he is speaking he is suggesting that they were guilty of the crime of neglect yet they were never charged or prosecuted for that crime and therefore are not guilty. He has lied.. Lawyers cannot lie about known facts to judges or juries. It would not be surprising to find that he is reported to the Solicitiors' Disicplinary Tribunal. He hasn't lied. It was a subjective judgement, quite clearly. Because someone was not charged or brought to court, does not mean that they did not carry out the neglect. To the contrary, the McCanns admit their neglect. NSPCC guidelines, in the absence of a statute on this matter is a good starting point. It states that small children should NEVER be left alone even for a few minutes. The NSPCC is widely respected across a number of social agencies. Their word on this topic is as close to a "law" on this particular point as you can get. The neglect by this group is further evidence by the fact that they informed the staff of their intention to leave toddlers alone. And they claim only to have planned checking half hourly. This shows an intent to leave tiny children alone and at risk of harm as part of their routine.

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Re: Doing a McCann - Drunk mum spared jail for leaving boy at home as she was 'not as bad as the McCanns'

Post by Mirage on 15.01.14 11:22

@Ristretto wrote:
@Mirage wrote:
@Ristretto wrote:Just a few comments about the original article.

Gareth Morgan, the lawyer, seems to miss a few pertinent points.

The McCanns were specifically cleared of the relevant crime of abandonment by the Portuguese prosecutors in the Archival report, That is why they were not prosecuted - the Attorney General lays out at length the reasons they had not committed neglect under Portuguese law. It was fully investigated and it was found that there was no case to bring against them.

As for the UK, the McCanns were not under English law at the time, so it is of no business to a UK court. And no matter what happens in a foreign jurisdiction that cannot be precedent for an English court to follow. This lawyer is simply trying to create a class issue to defend a drunk driver and attempting to deflect blame from her.

The reality is that the McCanns' actions in leaving Madeleine alone should have been a clear warning to everyone (including this woman) rather than an excuse for her to do the same.

The main issues are that:

1) The McCanns were not in the UK, so there is no reason to say couple X in another country did Y and were not prosecuted. It is not actually legally relevant to the case being brought in this UK court.

2) The McCanns were not drunk. No witness or police officer reports them as being so.

3) The McCanns were not in the process of committing another crime i.e drink driving, driving dangerously or leaving the scene of an accident and failing to report it..

4) The McCanns were fifty metres away, this woman was miles away

5) The McCanns left their children asleep in their beds, not in the living room.

8) Gareth Morgan, the woman's lawyer, claims she was absent only 20 minutes but she was heavily drunk (2 and a half times the drink drive limit) when the police eventually caught up with her after she fled the scene. So she had either been intoxicated whilst at home with this vulnerable child or had been drinking whilst driving. Her intoxication is clear evidence of neglecting her son.

7) Whilst Gareth Morgan cannot commit slander because he is in speaking in court (and therefore there is no possibility that the McCanns can take action against him), he can get into serious trouble as he has misled the court, by stating the McCanns were guilty of neglect. In the context in which he is speaking he is suggesting that they were guilty of the crime of neglect yet they were never charged or prosecuted for that crime and therefore are not guilty. He has lied.. Lawyers cannot lie about known facts to judges or juries. It would not be surprising to find that he is reported to the Solicitiors' Disicplinary Tribunal.

Just when you thought sophistry had reached its zenith, another invitation to pass through distorting mirrors and enter world McCann.

Sorry, do you have an actual response to the points I made? Or are you going to pretend the points don't exist?

No, I don't.

The hour I would spend answering your points is not worth the personal effort to me  or to the cause of justice in general. One recognises intractability when one meets it these days. There is no meeting point. No launch pad of premise. To enter dialogue with you would be the equivalent of slugging it out in a boxing ring. Not something I'm prepared to do .

I am entitled to draw a line in the sand to show readers coming to the forum that I disagree with your world view. Rather like Kate McCann herself - see I'm learning - I  knowingly choose to answer "no comment".

Your points exist. That is all that should matter to you. They have arrived on an energetic wave of unmistakeable signals. Readers read them and agree or disagree.  I disagree with your thinking en bloc.

The fact that I issue a grunt in response will have to suffice. Grunts can sometimes be eloquent, you know,  when moral relativism raises its ugly head .

My existential choice today, therefore, is that for 24 hours, at least,  the Mcs, and any wider evidence of their skewed morals, shall not exist in my world.

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