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Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Cristobell on 15.04.14 15:16

There is a very clear distinction between Particulars of Claim and Statement of Claim, in that the actions are heard in entirely different courts.  Civil courts hear claims with a financial limit of 38,000 Euros.  Its immaterial whether whether we are discussing the correct name of the Portuguese document, its UK equivalent we are discussing, ie, the Statement of Claim, the document used in the High Courts.  The Portuguese equivalent of a Particulars of Claim incidentally would be a document used in their small claims courts, not a libel action worth over 1.25 million Euros.  Whilst old fashioned legal terms might be charming, they are never used in the form filled world of lawyers offices as they would cause far too much confusion.

How does a trial collapse UT? Are there any precedents?  We have seen the sensational ones where, who can forget the unfortunate Eastenders actress carried out of the Courtroom on a stretcher.  Many I believe collapse in a trickle, or a few whispers of 'why has everything gone quiet'. 

We cannot brush aside the unique factors that surround this case.  Some might see it as a perfect storm.  One point, that seems particularly close to your own heart, is the WOC issue.  All the Claimants on the Writ will be liable for the costs, if indeed it is the practice in Portugal to award costs to the victor, ergo who will be liable for Madeleine's costs?  One fifth of whatever the total comes to, will it be Courts, who pay or the parents.

That is supposing that children under 18 can be made libel for costs in a Civil Action, I'm not sure on this as I didn't do much Court of Protection work, but perhaps someone can clarify. 

The fact that the trial is taking place during two criminal investigations makes this case unique, it is not something we have ever seen before, there are no precedents.  The revelations that have come to light since the trial began directly affect the McCanns claim that Goncalo Amaral's book stopped people searching for Madeleine.  Even if the Judge buried her head in the sand, she couldn't have missed Smithman and the efforts of the McCanns to suppress him.  

It may be that certain parties are prolonging the end, unwilling or unable to return to the battlefield.  I doubt very much anyone is telling them they have a good chance of winning anymore, and GA's money that Isabel was to keen to get her hands on when the trial began, is but a distant memory.

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by tigger on 15.04.14 15:49

@Cristobell wrote:There is a very clear distinction between Particulars of Claim and Statement of Claim, in that the actions are heard in entirely different courts.  Civil courts hear claims with a financial limit of 38,000 Euros.  Its immaterial whether whether we are discussing the correct name of the Portuguese document, its UK equivalent we are discussing, ie, the Statement of Claim, the document used in the High Courts.  The Portuguese equivalent of a Particulars of Claim incidentally would be a document used in their small claims courts, not a libel action worth over 1.25 million Euros.  Whilst old fashioned legal terms might be charming, they are never used in the form filled world of lawyers offices as they would cause far too much confusion.

How does a trial collapse UT? Are there any precedents?  We have seen the sensational ones where, who can forget the unfortunate Eastenders actress carried out of the Courtroom on a stretcher.  Many I believe collapse in a trickle, or a few whispers of 'why has everything gone quiet'. 

We cannot brush aside the unique factors that surround this case.  Some might see it as a perfect storm.  One point, that seems particularly close to your own heart, is the WOC issue.  All the Claimants on the Writ will be liable for the costs, if indeed it is the practice in Portugal to award costs to the victor, ergo who will be liable for Madeleine's costs?  One fifth of whatever the total comes to, will it be Courts, who pay or the parents.

That is supposing that children under 18 can be made libel for costs in a Civil Action, I'm not sure on this as I didn't do much Court of Protection work, but perhaps someone can clarify. 

The fact that the trial is taking place during two criminal investigations makes this case unique, it is not something we have ever seen before, there are no precedents.  The revelations that have come to light since the trial began directly affect the McCanns claim that Goncalo Amaral's book stopped people searching for Madeleine.  Even if the Judge buried her head in the sand, she couldn't have missed Smithman and the efforts of the McCanns to suppress him.  

It may be that certain parties are prolonging the end, unwilling or unable to return to the battlefield.  I doubt very much anyone is telling them they have a good chance of winning anymore, and GA's money that Isabel was to keen to get her hands on when the trial began, is but a distant memory.

Now I'm getting very confused.

1) does the Portuguese state have a small claims court?
2) surely the two criminal investigations are completely separate from the libel court case?  
3) I can't see the physical collapse of an Eastenders' actress having any bearing on the libel case in Portugal
4) So far we've seen how protracted this libel case is - what's a few more months?
5) if the case had collapsed we'd know by nowas I expect this would have to be formally declared. i'm not willing to believe that a public court case can suddenly collapse in secrecy.
6) the details of court cases in the UK are surely irrelevant, what we need to know is exactly how the judicial system in Portugal works in this case. So far it seems the judge was on the ball. Didn't miss a trick imo.

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by diatribe on 15.04.14 16:13

As a complete ignorami( that's the closest I can get to an attempt at latin, UT) when it comes to the matter of civil litigation, it would appear strange that no official announcement has been made if the trial has in fact concluded, whatever the reasons.

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Guest on 15.04.14 16:35

My O-level Latin comes in useful at times - you're an ignoramus diatribe not an ignorami! The plural is ignoramuses.

I have heard via Facebook from someone in Portugal that the stopping and starting of court cases is nothing out of the usual with their court system.

Perhaps one of our members in Portugal will be able to confirm this?

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by diatribe on 15.04.14 16:49

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:My O-level Latin comes in useful at times - you're an ignoramus diatribe not an ignorami! The plural is ignoramuses.


Why thank you for your lesson in latin, Ms. De'ath, at least I'm only in the singular and I appreciate I did sleep walk into that one. :)

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by PeterMac on 15.04.14 17:05

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:
I have heard via Facebook from someone in Portugal that the stopping and starting of court cases is nothing out of the usual with their court system.
Perhaps one of our members in Portugal will be able to confirm this?

Ego operor illud, dum loquimur,
Working on it even as we speak.

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Guest on 15.04.14 19:26

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:My O-level Latin comes in useful at times - you're an ignoramus diatribe not an ignorami! The plural is ignoramuses.  

I have heard via Facebook from someone in Portugal that the stopping and starting of court cases is nothing out of the usual with their court system.

Perhaps one of our members in Portugal will be able to confirm this?

Sorry, if Diatribe is a female she is an ignorama; plural ignoramae

And if he is a man, his plural is still ignoramus (I think): 4th declination.

Mr Bennett or anyone else really in the know, am I right?

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Guest on 15.04.14 19:31

ignorami first person plural, declination male words ending on -us

kindest regards
parapono

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Guest on 15.04.14 19:32

I wish I'd taken A-level in Latin now!

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Guest on 15.04.14 19:35

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I wish I'd taken A-level in Latin now!

The only time it comes in handy is when you try to read a Portuguese newspaper and stuff; so don't feel too bad about it!

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Okeydokey on 15.04.14 19:58

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:My O-level Latin comes in useful at times - you're an ignoramus diatribe not an ignorami! The plural is ignoramuses.  

I have heard via Facebook from someone in Portugal that the stopping and starting of court cases is nothing out of the usual with their court system.

Perhaps one of our members in Portugal will be able to confirm this?


Not that I'm learned in Latin, but...

Ignorami is an acceptable alternative plural...but ignoramus is not actually a Latin noun. It's an English coinage from the Latin phrase for "We do not know..." applied to a character in a play back in 1615. 

All thanks to the wonderful Google.

Anyway I'm sure none of us here are ignorami or ignoramuses.

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Guest on 15.04.14 20:27

I cannot contribute to the discussion, as all of my [rather poor] Latin is based on RC liturgy. "Credo in unum Deo", e.g. However, if need be, I can help in many more current languages  big grin 

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by PeterMac on 15.04.14 22:18

Châtelaine wrote:I cannot contribute to the discussion, as all of my [rather poor] {very poor , see Me after class. PM}   Latin is based on RC liturgy. "Credo in unum DeUM",  

Yeah, but no, but yeah , but no,  but Which one ?

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Guest on 15.04.14 22:54

Ignoramus means we don't know/understand. Ignorare is the verb. And "I'm an ignoramus" is correct, derived from the name of a character somewhere in literature.

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by PeterMac on 16.04.14 8:03

How can anyone
ignor a moose  ?
" />

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Okeydokey on 16.04.14 11:15

@PeterMac wrote:How can anyone
ignor a moose  ?
" />

Indeed. Reminds me of what my Uncle Rudolf told me. He was a meteorologist and a Communist.  He told me: "Rudolf the Red knows rain, dear."

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by ultimaThule on 16.04.14 11:25

@tigger wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:There is a very clear distinction between Particulars of Claim and Statement of Claim, in that the actions are heard in entirely different courts.  Civil courts hear claims with a financial limit of 38,000 Euros.  Its immaterial whether whether we are discussing the correct name of the Portuguese document, its UK equivalent we are discussing, ie, the Statement of Claim, the document used in the High Courts.  The Portuguese equivalent of a Particulars of Claim incidentally would be a document used in their small claims courts, not a libel action worth over 1.25 million Euros.  Whilst old fashioned legal terms might be charming, they are never used in the form filled world of lawyers offices as they would cause far too much confusion.

How does a trial collapse UT? Are there any precedents?  We have seen the sensational ones where, who can forget the unfortunate Eastenders actress carried out of the Courtroom on a stretcher.  Many I believe collapse in a trickle, or a few whispers of 'why has everything gone quiet'. 

We cannot brush aside the unique factors that surround this case.  Some might see it as a perfect storm.  One point, that seems particularly close to your own heart, is the WOC issue.  All the Claimants on the Writ will be liable for the costs, if indeed it is the practice in Portugal to award costs to the victor, ergo who will be liable for Madeleine's costs?  One fifth of whatever the total comes to, will it be Courts, who pay or the parents.

That is supposing that children under 18 can be made libel for costs in a Civil Action, I'm not sure on this as I didn't do much Court of Protection work, but perhaps someone can clarify. 

The fact that the trial is taking place during two criminal investigations makes this case unique, it is not something we have ever seen before, there are no precedents.  The revelations that have come to light since the trial began directly affect the McCanns claim that Goncalo Amaral's book stopped people searching for Madeleine.  Even if the Judge buried her head in the sand, she couldn't have missed Smithman and the efforts of the McCanns to suppress him.  

It may be that certain parties are prolonging the end, unwilling or unable to return to the battlefield.  I doubt very much anyone is telling them they have a good chance of winning anymore, and GA's money that Isabel was to keen to get her hands on when the trial began, is but a distant memory.

Now I'm getting very confused.

1) does the Portuguese state have a small claims court?
2) surely the two criminal investigations are completely separate from the libel court case?  
3) I can't see the physical collapse of an Eastenders' actress having any bearing on the libel case in Portugal
4) So far we've seen how protracted this libel case is - what's a few more months?
5) if the case had collapsed we'd know by nowas I expect this would have to be formally declared. i'm not willing to believe that a public court case can suddenly collapse in secrecy.
6) the details of court cases in the UK are surely irrelevant, what we need to know is exactly how the judicial system in Portugal works in this case. So far it seems the judge was on the ball. Didn't miss a trick imo.
I've become confused too, Cristobell.

Are you saying that the civil courts of Portugal hear "claims with a financial limit of 38,000 euros" and that claims in excess of this sum are heard in other or higher courts?

I don't recall the incident you've referred to where an "unfortunate Eastenders actress" was stretchered out of court but, unless the collapse of a vital witness or similar proved fatal, this in itself would not cause a trial to 'collapse' and, in any event, the reason or cause of sudden or unexpected termination of a public trial would be recorded in court documents and announced accordingly.

It may be that when you address tigger's questions some of mine will be answered but as I've no wish to jump the queue, so to speak, I'll wait for your further post before responding to the issues you've raised.

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Guest on 16.04.14 11:33

A link to the EastEnders actress case.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/soap-opera-actress-in-courtroom-scenes-to-rival-tv-drama-1409399.html

Note the quote from a certain Peter Carter-Ruck! Where have the last 20 years gone, it seems like yesterday.

I didn't know until now that Geoff Knights (Gillian's former partner) died last year.

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by diatribe on 16.04.14 12:22

parapono wrote:ignorami first person plural, declination male words ending on -us

kindest regards
parapono
So I was correct, I am indeed an ignorami, after all. big grin

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by aquila on 16.04.14 12:42

@Okeydokey wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:How can anyone
ignor a moose  ?
" />

Indeed. Reminds me of what my Uncle Rudolf told me. He was a meteorologist and a Communist.  He told me: "Rudolf the Red knows rain, dear."
Thank you for the belly laugh.

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Guest on 16.04.14 12:55

Yes, that's a good one  big grin 

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Cristobell on 16.04.14 17:39

@ultimaThule wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:There is a very clear distinction between Particulars of Claim and Statement of Claim, in that the actions are heard in entirely different courts.  Civil courts hear claims with a financial limit of 38,000 Euros.  Its immaterial whether whether we are discussing the correct name of the Portuguese document, its UK equivalent we are discussing, ie, the Statement of Claim, the document used in the High Courts.  The Portuguese equivalent of a Particulars of Claim incidentally would be a document used in their small claims courts, not a libel action worth over 1.25 million Euros.  Whilst old fashioned legal terms might be charming, they are never used in the form filled world of lawyers offices as they would cause far too much confusion.

How does a trial collapse UT? Are there any precedents?  We have seen the sensational ones where, who can forget the unfortunate Eastenders actress carried out of the Courtroom on a stretcher.  Many I believe collapse in a trickle, or a few whispers of 'why has everything gone quiet'. 

We cannot brush aside the unique factors that surround this case.  Some might see it as a perfect storm.  One point, that seems particularly close to your own heart, is the WOC issue.  All the Claimants on the Writ will be liable for the costs, if indeed it is the practice in Portugal to award costs to the victor, ergo who will be liable for Madeleine's costs?  One fifth of whatever the total comes to, will it be Courts, who pay or the parents.

That is supposing that children under 18 can be made libel for costs in a Civil Action, I'm not sure on this as I didn't do much Court of Protection work, but perhaps someone can clarify. 

The fact that the trial is taking place during two criminal investigations makes this case unique, it is not something we have ever seen before, there are no precedents.  The revelations that have come to light since the trial began directly affect the McCanns claim that Goncalo Amaral's book stopped people searching for Madeleine.  Even if the Judge buried her head in the sand, she couldn't have missed Smithman and the efforts of the McCanns to suppress him.  

It may be that certain parties are prolonging the end, unwilling or unable to return to the battlefield.  I doubt very much anyone is telling them they have a good chance of winning anymore, and GA's money that Isabel was to keen to get her hands on when the trial began, is but a distant memory.

Now I'm getting very confused.

1) does the Portuguese state have a small claims court? -

Common sense would suggest that small clams are not heard in the same Courts as the big claims, I don't claim to know the Portuguese legal system, but I would assume that criminal matters, civil matters etc, have their own Courts.

2) surely the two criminal investigations are completely separate from the libel court case?

Except that the two criminal investigations are directly related to the Libel trial, and as I mentioned before this case is unique, there are no precedents. 



3) I can't see the physical collapse of an Eastenders' actress having any bearing on the libel case in Portugal

I cited the case of the Eastenders' actress as an example of what happens when a libel case collapses.  The actress was claiming financial compensation for damages, but her case was shown up to be a sham.  She collapsed in the witness box as I remember, the point being, she was so humiliated in the courtroom she was unable to walk out.

4) So far we've seen how protracted this libel case is - what's a few more months?

Agree, except this trial had begun, and was in fact nearing the end when it disappeared.

5) if the case had collapsed we'd know by nowas I expect this would have to be formally declared. I'm not willing to believe that a public court case can suddenly collapse in secrecy.

Its not really so difficult to believe Tigger.  The trial has been a catastrophe for the McCanns, they have no hope whatsoever of winning that £1m+ and I doubt they, or their witnesses want to return to Portugal.  It happens.





6) the details of court cases in the UK are surely irrelevant, what we need to know is exactly how the judicial system in Portugal works in this case. So far it seems the judge was on the ball. Didn't miss a trick imo.

Agree, the Judge is nobody's fool.




I've become confused too, Cristobell.

Are you saying that the civil courts of Portugal hear "claims with a financial limit of 38,000 euros" and that claims in excess of this sum are heard in other or higher courts?

Thats not what I said at all, perhaps you would like to read it again.



I don't recall the incident you've referred to where an "unfortunate Eastenders actress" was stretchered out of court but, unless the collapse of a vital witness or similar proved fatal, this in itself would not cause a trial to 'collapse' and, in any event, the reason or cause of sudden or unexpected termination of a public trial would be recorded in court documents and announced accordingly.

The actress was humiliated in Court as she lost her libel action against the Sun and the Metropolitan police as it had been proved that she lied and she was ordered to pay the costs of  £500k. I mentioned her as an example of what can go wrong when people bring libel actions they are unable to win.  There are a number of high profile examples of people who have lost libel actions, its a very costly business and often results in complete ruin.
  


It may be that when you address tigger's questions some of mine will be answered but as I've no wish to jump the queue, so to speak, I'll wait for your further post before responding to the issues you've raised.

Thank you for your patience.  smilie 

Whilst you are here, perhaps you know whether costs can be award against claimants who are under 18 UT? The twins and Madeleine are party to this action, but I'm not sure if they would also be liable for the costs if (when) the McCanns lose?



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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by ultimaThule on 16.04.14 18:22

Unfortunately I remain confused by your statement that "Civil courts hear claims with a financial limit of 38,000 euros" Cristobell.  

As you have mentioned 'euros' am I correct in assuming you are referring to the civil courts of Portugal?

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Cristobell on 16.04.14 18:43

@ultimaThule wrote:Unfortunately I remain confused by your statement that "Civil courts hear claims with a financial limit of 38,000 euros" Cristobell.  

As you have mentioned 'euros' am I correct in assuming you are referring to the civil courts of Portugal?
County Courts in the UK have an upper limit of 38,000 euros, claims above that are heard in the HIGH Court.  In the County Court you would issue a Particulars of Claim, in the High Court, it would be a Statement of Claim.  I looked the County Court limit up on Wiki, in my earlier post on this subject, I said I thought it was around £10k, from memory, but it is actually written as euros, 38,000 odd, not an exact figure, and no longer in pounds sterling.

I don't know how the Courts in Portugal are administered, but in a complex Western society, I would imagine their Courts would have divisions in the same way that ours do, ergo smaller claims will be heard in smaller Courts, just my opinion. 

Do you know whether the children will be liable for costs if (when) the McCanns lose?

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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

Post by Judex Venturus on 16.04.14 20:12

parapono wrote:ignorami first person plural, declination male words ending on -us

kindest regards
parapono
Not first person plural -- that's verbs not nouns. It is the nominative case plural... boring but correct!

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