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Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by aquila on Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:53 pm

I don't think there is anything intriguing about this case - now it's actually IN a court of law. It's a libel case in a Portuguese court under Portuguese law.

I believe that the Judge is acting in accordance with Portuguese law - how could she do otherwise?

There is nothing that can stop the legal process. The case is being heard, a judge is presiding and there will be a ruling.

Whoever loses will appeal. That's the way it goes.

There is only one thing that stands out for me and that is should the Mc's lose, how far are TM prepared to go to keep up the litigation and at what financial/personal/emotional cost? Will it be the libel trial of the century? Will it be a never-ending story? How can the ongoing costs of such legal representation be explained? What lawfirm/underwriter would happily continue and not cut their losses/draw a line in the sand?

Just my opinion.

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by Smokeandmirrors on Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:58 pm

@aquila wrote:I don't think there is anything intriguing about this case - now it's actually IN a court of law. It's a libel case in a Portuguese court under Portuguese law.

I believe that the Judge is acting in accordance with Portuguese law - how could she do otherwise?

There is nothing that can stop the legal process. The case is being heard, a judge is presiding and there will be a ruling.

Whoever loses will appeal. That's the way it goes.

There is only one thing that stands out for me and that is should the Mc's lose, how far are TM prepared to go to keep up the litigation and at what financial/personal/emotional cost? Will it be the libel trial of the century? Will it be a never-ending story? How can the ongoing costs of such legal representation be explained? What lawfirm/underwriter would happily continue and not cut their losses/draw a line in the sand?

Just my opinion.

Ask yourself why the Judge will not let Amaral speak in this. This particular case is small fry and has been in the making for 4 years. What has now become more important, and why Amaral cannot speak in this case is because there is the possibility that the JIT will bring something to the Judicial table in due course. Amarals powder needs to be kept dry.

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by aquila on Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:02 pm

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
@aquila wrote:I don't think there is anything intriguing about this case - now it's actually IN a court of law. It's a libel case in a Portuguese court under Portuguese law.

I believe that the Judge is acting in accordance with Portuguese law - how could she do otherwise?

There is nothing that can stop the legal process. The case is being heard, a judge is presiding and there will be a ruling.

Whoever loses will appeal. That's the way it goes.

There is only one thing that stands out for me and that is should the Mc's lose, how far are TM prepared to go to keep up the litigation and at what financial/personal/emotional cost? Will it be the libel trial of the century? Will it be a never-ending story? How can the ongoing costs of such legal representation be explained? What lawfirm/underwriter would happily continue and not cut their losses/draw a line in the sand?

Just my opinion.

Ask yourself why the Judge will not let Amaral speak in this. This particular case is small fry and has been in the making for 4 years. What has now become more important, and why Amaral cannot speak in this case is because there is the possibility that the JIT will bring something to the Judicial table in due course. Amarals powder needs to be kept dry.
I understand what you're saying but it's pure speculation on your part.

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by Smokeandmirrors on Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:15 pm

Of course it is pure speculation, like many things. I am speculating that the McCanns being refused permission to speak may not be very interesting or relevant in the bigger picture at this moment in time. Gerry's disappointment and belief he has the RIGHT to speak, in their DAMAGES claim (not libel IIUC) is IMO neither here nor there.

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by Christina on Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:57 pm

I read the Court Reports from Anne Guedes as they came in and, from what I can remember, many are correct here. The McCanns and Dr Amaral couldn't 'testify'? under the old rules. The Law changed before the hearing in September, and leading up to that they could have applied to speak. They all opted not to. Then later they did.. Then it was up to the Judge to decide if she needed to hear them in order to make a judgement. It appears she doesn't.

I'm awaiting the last day, and the judgement. I can't remember if there will be more time for that. I think so but not sure.

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by suzyjohnson on Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:02 pm

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:

And it would be more relevant if we turn our attention away from the McCanns, just for a moment. It could be that she refused THEM in order to refuse AMARAL. The reason for not wanting to hear him is IMO  far more interesting and promising…..   eyebrows 

The McCanns would LIKE to think it's all about them, their importance and right to air their imagined grievances. I'm wondering if this is all taking an intriguing turn.

You could have something there Smoleandmirrors, it may be because of the evidence Amaral would need to give in order to win the case, possibly

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by marconi on Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:20 am

My opinion is that the McCanns want to delay the sentence that will be given by the Judge.

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by tiny on Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:55 am

@marconi wrote:My opinion is that the McCanns want to delay the sentence that will be given by the Judge.

you could be right,but it looks like its not going to happen

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by plebgate on Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:55 am

@tiny wrote:
@marconi wrote:My opinion is that the McCanns want to delay the sentence that will be given by the Judge.

you could be right,but it looks like its not going to happen
Oh No, they will be furious.   titter

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:58 am

@plebgate wrote:
@tiny wrote:
@marconi wrote:My opinion is that the McCanns want to delay the sentence that will be given by the Judge.

you could be right,but it looks like its not going to happen
Oh No, they will be furious.   titter

Sorry, no sentence on the 7th: the final summings up by all 4 parties involved; then, date set for decision; then decision, probably much later

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:26 am

Madeleine McCann Parents In Court Setback

A request by Madeleine McCann's parents to give evidence at a Portuguese libel trial over a book by a former local police chief has been rejected, according to a family source.

Kate and Gerry McCann are suing Goncalo Amaral over claims he made in The Truth of the Lie, which they say damaged the hunt for their missing daughter and greatly added to their anguish.

The McCanns are also taking legal action against his publisher and the makers of a documentary based on the book.

They had wanted to testify in the court case, which is taking place in Lisbon.

A request by Madeleine McCann's parents to give evidence at a Portuguese libel trial over a book by a former local police chief has been rejected, according to a family source.

Kate and Gerry McCann are suing Goncalo Amaral over claims he made in The Truth of the Lie, which they say damaged the hunt for their missing daughter and greatly added to their anguish.

The McCanns are also taking legal action against his publisher and the makers of a documentary based on the book.

They had wanted to testify in the court case, which is taking place in Lisbon.

Madeleine McCann disappeared from her family's holiday apartment in 2007
Madeleine's mother travelled to Lisbon at the start of the trial, and her husband has attended several times in the hope of being able to give evidence.

Madeleine, who was then nearly four, disappeared from her family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in the Algarve on May 3, 2007, as her parents dined at a nearby restaurant with friends.

British detectives launched a fresh investigation into the youngster's disappearance in July this year - two years into a review of the case - and made renewed appeals on television in the UK, the Netherlands and in Germany.

After shelving their inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance in 2008, Portuguese authorities said in October that a review had uncovered enough new information to justify reopening it.

http://news.sky.com/story/1190033/madeleine-mccann-parents-in-court-setback

No burglars, no suspects, just reporting the trial, the've even got a photo of GA

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:31 am

Cherry Blossom wrote:Madeleine McCann Parents In Court Setback

A request by Madeleine McCann's parents to give evidence at a Portuguese libel trial over a book by a former local police chief has been rejected, according to a family source.

Kate and Gerry McCann are suing Goncalo Amaral over claims he made in The Truth of the Lie, which they say damaged the hunt for their missing daughter and greatly added to their anguish.

The McCanns are also taking legal action against his publisher and the makers of a documentary based on the book.

They had wanted to testify in the court case, which is taking place in Lisbon.

A request by Madeleine McCann's parents to give evidence at a Portuguese libel trial over a book by a former local police chief has been rejected, according to a family source.

Kate and Gerry McCann are suing Goncalo Amaral over claims he made in The Truth of the Lie, which they say damaged the hunt for their missing daughter and greatly added to their anguish.

The McCanns are also taking legal action against his publisher and the makers of a documentary based on the book.

They had wanted to testify in the court case, which is taking place in Lisbon.

Madeleine McCann disappeared from her family's holiday apartment in 2007
Madeleine's mother travelled to Lisbon at the start of the trial, and her husband has attended several times in the hope of being able to give evidence.

Madeleine, who was then nearly four, disappeared from her family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in the Algarve on May 3, 2007, as her parents dined at a nearby restaurant with friends.

British detectives launched a fresh investigation into the youngster's disappearance in July this year - two years into a review of the case - and made renewed appeals on television in the UK, the Netherlands and in Germany.

After shelving their inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance in 2008, Portuguese authorities said in October that a review had uncovered enough new information to justify reopening it.

http://news.sky.com/story/1190033/madeleine-mccann-parents-in-court-setback

No burglars, no suspects, just reporting the trial, the've even got a photo of GA


An no use of the word 'abducted'

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:31 am

maybe OTH spoke to their boss after all!
That's the most straightforward piece I've seen in a while afaik.

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:40 am

Bellisa wrote:maybe OTH spoke to their boss after all!
That's the most straightforward piece I've seen in a while afaik.

Yes me too Bellisa,

That's right candyfloss, missed that  titter 

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by Rasputin on Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:51 am

@suzyjohnson wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote:

And it would be more relevant if we turn our attention away from the McCanns, just for a moment. It could be that she refused THEM in order to refuse AMARAL. The reason for not wanting to hear him is IMO  far more interesting and promising…..   eyebrows 

The McCanns would LIKE to think it's all about them, their importance and right to air their imagined grievances. I'm wondering if this is all taking an intriguing turn.

You could have something there Smoleandmirrors, it may be because of the evidence Amaral would need to give in order to win the case, possibly
This indeed ! ...It will be most interesting to see Amaral win this libel case WITHOUT delivering his knock-out blow .

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by PeterMac on Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:05 pm

IF this is a LIBEL trial, - strictly so called - then the Plaintiff's reaction to the defamation is irrelevant.
The fact that they did not like it is evidenced by the bringing of the proceedings.
The questions are
1 Were the words used false ?
2 Did what was written harm the reputation of the individual concerned.

Have the Mccanns in fact submitted a long Jeremiad, bemoaning their fate and the misfortune which has been heaped upon them,
but without a single FACT about the case, without a single evidenced refutation of anything that Dr Amaral or any of the others said.

If so, the judge may well have decided that this is simply not part of the legal process, and have dismissed it as irrelevant.
As in fact was most of the evidence given by their paid stooges. None of it went to the facts

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by Guest on Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:23 pm

@PeterMac wrote:IF this is a LIBEL trial, - strictly so called - then the Plaintiff's reaction to the defamation is irrelevant.
The fact that they did not like it is evidenced by the bringing of the proceedings.
The questions are
1  Were the words used false ?
2  Did what was written harm the reputation of the individual concerned.

This might be relevant - what the Portuguese Court of Appeal said about all the above in thier October 2010 judgment (imperfect translation form Portugal):

Snipped from the judgment:

The book that was written by the first defendant, Dr. Gonçalo Amaral, presents a thesis that was at one time defended by several participants in the police investigation: that little Madeleine died accidentally and that her parents, here the first applicants, were suspected of concealing the cadaver.

This defendant was the Coordinating Inspector of the investigation into the case of the disappearance, thus being the most qualified police officer who intervened in the investigation until the time when, through a decision from the Judiciary Police’s (PJ) directory, he was removed from that function.

In that role, the defendant was deeply involved in the entire investigation and had the opportunity to formulate all of the possible conclusions about the case, while it was under investigation.

Approximately 5 months later, Dr. Gonçalo Amaral was removed from the investigation through a decision of the PJ's directory.

As he clarifies several times throughout the book, the author felt the need to write it right away in order to, as he says, “recover my good name, which was publicly dragged through the mud while the institution that I served for 26 years, the Portuguese Judiciary Police, did not allow me to defend myself, nor defended me institutionally. I asked for permission to speak out in that sense, a request that remains unanswered to this day. I fully respected the PJ's rules, and remained in silence. Nevertheless, said silence was tearing my dignity apart.

Later on, I was removed from the investigation. I then decided that it was time for me to defend myself in a public way. Therefore, I immediately requested my retirement, so I could regain the plenitude of my freedom of expression.”

This is a first point – and one that is not small – that should be registered: the author feels he is the victim of injustice and wants to re-establish the truth, at least his truth or his vision of truth, even more so as he felt that his honour was being diminished and the police force that he owed obedience to did not allow him to reply, as a police officer, to those attacks against his professional pride and his honour as a qualified criminal investigation police officer.

In the book that is at stake here – “Maddie – the Truth of the Lie” – the author presents a vast multiplicity of facts and then offers his interpretation of said facts.

Those facts are all part of the investigation and are exhaustively considered and weighed in the archiving dispatch of the process that is on the DVD which has been appended to this court case (page 441).

In that description, there are main facts and others that are secondary, but which the author attributes value to, based on his experience as a police investigator, an activity that he has performed for 26 years.

The author describes, in detail, several facts and circumstances that were not coherent in between each other, from the outset of the investigation, thus prompting contradictory conclusions.

In the archiving dispatch that is signed by two Public Ministry Magistrates, it is written that “From the analysis of the set of depositions that were made it became evident that important details existed which were not fully understood and integrated, which needed to be tested and verified on the location of events itself, thus rendering it possible to establish the apparent failures to meet and the lack of synchronisation, even divergences, in a diligence that is suited for that effect, which was the reconstitution, which was not possible to perform, despite the commitment that was displayed by the Public Ministry and by the PJ, to attain that purpose…”

In that very same dispatch, the result of the tests that were performed by the sniffer dogs “Eddie” (a dog that was specially trained to signal cadaver odour) and “Keela” (specially trained to detect the presence of human blood) are mentioned.

“Eddie” marked (signalled) cadaver odour:

• in the McCann couple’s bedroom in apartment 5-A (from where little Madeleine disappeared) in the area next to the wardrobe;

• in an area next to the living room window that has direct access to the street, behind a sofa;

• and in an area of the same apartment’s garden.

The dog “Eddie” again marked the signal of cadaver:

• at the “Vista do Mar” villa, which was rented by the McCann couple after Madeleine’s disappearance, in the area of a wardrobe that contained a soft toy that had belonged to the little girl;

• on clothing that belonged to the applicant Kate Healy, Madeleine’s mother;

• on the outside of the Renault Scenic vehicle with the license plate number 59-DA-27, that was rented by the McCann couple after the disappearance, next to the driver’s door;

• and on that vehicle’s key/card.

The dog “Keela” detected residues of human blood:

• in the same living room of apartment 5-A, which had already been signalled by “Eddie”;

• after the floor tiles that had been signalled during the first inspection had been removed, she again signalled the spot where the floor tiles had been;

• on the lower part of the window curtain that had already been signalled by “Eddie” before;

• on the inside of the boot of the Renault Scenic vehicle that had already been signalled by “Eddie”;

• and in the door storage compartment on the vehicle’s driver’s side, which contained the car key/card;

The dogs’ indications cannot be used as evidence in court, but in multiple cases they provided precious help in terms of collection of evidence for the Scotland Yard and the FBI, with positive results.

In possession of that new data, and crossing it with the data that had been collected before, the Portuguese authorities - the Public Ministry and the Judiciary Police - tried to perform a reconstitution of the facts, they did and tried everything, but due to the lack of availability of the McCann couple and their friends, who did not show up, said diligence could not be performed and those facts still remain to be clarified.

Concerning that matter, it is written in the final dispatch that “(…) despite the fact that the national authorities took all measures to render their travelling to Portugal possible, due to motives that are unknown, after the many doubts that they raised concerning the need and the opportunity of their travelling were clarified several times, they chose not to show up, which rendered the diligence impossible to perform.

In any case, the fact is that the indications that were mentioned above were sufficient to make the McCann couple arguidos.

The subsequent collection and production of evidence, namely the forensics evidence that was collected and treated in laboratory, weakened that conviction and thus the couple stopped being arguidos.

What is certain is that since the start of the investigation there were incongruent and even contradictory situations concerning the witness statements; the telephone records of calls that were made and received on mobile phones that belonged to the couple and to the group of friends that were on holidays with them; the movements of people right after the disappearance of the little girl was noticed, concerning the state in which the bedroom from where the child disappeared from was found (closed window? open window? partially open window?) etc., and the mystery would only become even thicker due to the clues that were left by the already mentioned sniffer dogs.

All of this is reported in detailed manner in the book that is at stake here, reproducing the contents of some of the case files, which also had an effect on the above mentioned final dispatch that was signed by two Public Ministry Magistrates.

In the book, we do not verify any reference to any facts that are not in that dispatch.

Where the author differs from the Prosecutors who have written the dispatch, is in the logical, police-work-related and investigative interpretation that he does of those facts.

In that aspect, we stand before the exercise of freedom of opinion, which is a domain in which the author is an expert, as he was a criminal investigator for 26 years.

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by Montclair on Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:12 pm

@Tony Bennett wrote:Tony Bennett

Montclair,

Are you absolutely sure about that? Can you give us any reliable authority for that please?

It seems contrary to the most basic principles of law and natural justice.

A defendant - as in this case - can be faced with absolutely massive adverse consequences...

...And he cannot speak in his own defence?

Sallypelt

Didn't the law regarding libel, change in Portugal in July 2013, or sometime around that date, allowing defendant and plaintiff to take the stand?

Montclair

Only if the judge agrees! This is a civil case not a criminal case and it is up to the plaintiffs to prove their case.

++++++++++++++++++++++++


REPLY: This is totally bizarre.

Apart from maybe North Korea, Zimbabwe, Somalia and the Central African Republic, where else in the world apart from Portugal is one not allowed, in civil trials, to say anything in one's own defence, or 'only with the judge's permission'?

Don't be ridiculous! They had their witnesses, don't forget!

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by Okeydokey on Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:18 pm

Cherry Blossom wrote:Madeleine McCann Parents In Court Setback

A request by Madeleine McCann's parents to give evidence at a Portuguese libel trial over a book by a former local police chief has been rejected, according to a family source.

Kate and Gerry McCann are suing Goncalo Amaral over claims he made in The Truth of the Lie, which they say damaged the hunt for their missing daughter and greatly added to their anguish.

The McCanns are also taking legal action against his publisher and the makers of a documentary based on the book.

They had wanted to testify in the court case, which is taking place in Lisbon.

A request by Madeleine McCann's parents to give evidence at a Portuguese libel trial over a book by a former local police chief has been rejected, according to a family source.

Kate and Gerry McCann are suing Goncalo Amaral over claims he made in The Truth of the Lie, which they say damaged the hunt for their missing daughter and greatly added to their anguish.

The McCanns are also taking legal action against his publisher and the makers of a documentary based on the book.

They had wanted to testify in the court case, which is taking place in Lisbon.

Madeleine McCann disappeared from her family's holiday apartment in 2007
Madeleine's mother travelled to Lisbon at the start of the trial, and her husband has attended several times in the hope of being able to give evidence.

Madeleine, who was then nearly four, disappeared from her family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in the Algarve on May 3, 2007, as her parents dined at a nearby restaurant with friends.

British detectives launched a fresh investigation into the youngster's disappearance in July this year - two years into a review of the case - and made renewed appeals on television in the UK, the Netherlands and in Germany.

After shelving their inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance in 2008, Portuguese authorities said in October that a review had uncovered enough new information to justify reopening it.

http://news.sky.com/story/1190033/madeleine-mccann-parents-in-court-setback

No burglars, no suspects, just reporting the trial, the've even got a photo of GA

Yes, but they pick and choose what to report about the trial - giving it McCann spin all the time. Brunt changed sides a long time ago, a sensible, career-saving move no doubt.

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Re: Mccann's refused permission to give evidence

Post by marconi on Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:57 pm

@Portia wrote:

Sorry, no sentence on the 7th: the final summings up by all 4 parties involved; then, date set for decision; then decision, probably much later

OK, but if the Judge accepts them, the decision will be made much, much and much later.
The McCanns would make a mess of it.

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