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More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by Guest on 21.12.13 10:44

@PeterMac wrote:It is a fascinating piece of social history.
The upper clases had "Dinner" at 8pm
The lower classes had "Tea" immediately after finishing work.

Why ?

Answers on a postcard.  There is an incredibly simple answer.


$$$$$?

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by Woburn_exile on 21.12.13 11:01

@Portia wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:It is a fascinating piece of social history.
The upper clases had "Dinner" at 8pm
The lower classes had "Tea" immediately after finishing work.

Why ?

Answers on a postcard.  There is an incredibly simple answer.


$$$$$?

Is it something to do with the upperclass Ladies having "afternoon tea"?

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by Penfold on 21.12.13 11:12

Or because the 'lower classes' had been at work since the crack of dawn and were knackered and starving hungry when they got home?

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by Daisy on 21.12.13 11:20

@Penfold wrote:Or because the 'lower classes' had been at work since the crack of dawn and were knackered and starving hungry when they got home?
That would be my guess too. The working classes needed their meal earlier because they'd been working.

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by jeanmonroe on 21.12.13 11:25

@PeterMac wrote:It is a fascinating piece of social history.
The upper clases had "Dinner" at 8pm
The lower classes had "Tea" immediately after finishing work.

Why ?

Answers on a postcard.  There is an incredibly simple answer.

So there would be a bit more time to fabricate an 'alibi' should one of their children go 'missing'?

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by PeterMac on 21.12.13 11:28

Lighting.
Until gas lighting of houses in the mid 1850s the only lights were candles or oil lamps.
The mantle, giving the intense bright light was not invented until 1891
The beginnings of electric lighting were around 1900 +

IN 1750 (google Dr Johnsons London), a whole pig cost 2/6d
ONE pound of candles cost 2/10d
Weekly wage for a labourer 9/-. Enough for 3 lbs of candles.

Now look at the chandeliers, and work out how much it cost to have "dinner" after the sun had gone down.

A social distinction which is with us today.
Dinner parties often, or usually have candles on the table.
People have forgotten what a statement of wealth that one was.

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by aquila on 21.12.13 11:29

@jeanmonroe wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:It is a fascinating piece of social history.
The upper clases had "Dinner" at 8pm
The lower classes had "Tea" immediately after finishing work.

Why ?

Answers on a postcard.  There is an incredibly simple answer.

So there would be a bit more time to fabricate an 'alibi' should one of their children go 'missing'?
don't forget the 'tea stain' too.

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by Guest on 21.12.13 14:06

Petermac, thanks for that illuminating (no pun intended) bit of social history. I love that sort of stuff.

A couple of centuries ago, when workers farmed the land and mined the pits the main meal would've been eaten at the end of the day after a 12 hour shift, with break in the middle to eat pie or whatever was brought to work as 'pack-up'. Only later, when people started to work in factories etc would there have been a dinnerbreak long enough for the workers to return home and eat their main meal - dinner - at midday. There are various words to describe working class mealtimes as we've seen on this thread, mainly because of the varying structures of the working day and also geographical differences.

When I grew up, we had breakfast, dinner, tea and supper just before bed. My dad, a lorry driver, had breakfast, packed lunch, dinner then supper. His dinner was his main meal when he got home at night, a special plate for him either cooked from scratch by mum, or reheated from the rest of the family's dinner from earlier.

The upper classes have never suffered such confusion as they've never had to work. Their mealtimes are, and have always been breakfast, lunch (luncheon still in very grand and royal houses), afternoon tea, dinner and sometimes supper too! Whomever, now fewer have grand houses and fleets of servants, dinner is often now eaten in the kitchen and has become 'supper', or 'kitchen sups'. High tea was served to children in the nursery by their nannies about 5 or 6 o'clock as children were not permitted to attend dinner unless it was a special occasion.

The middle classes, as always desperate to distance themselves from the working class and climb towards the aristocracy, started calling the midday meal 'lunch', and 'tea' became dinner. The middles' ghastly 'high tea' was introduced to disinguish from 'afternoon tea' and is a less formal form of dinner, again, often given to children as an earlier meal and seperate from the adults who'll later have 'dinner'.

It's fascinating. Ultimately, the working and uppers classes are very similar as a result in the words that they use and the middle classes, in their attempt to refine themselves, have merely become stigmatized with unintentional labels that give them away. The working and upper classes both say 'pudding' for example, the middles have adopted 'dessert'. This hideous give-away would raise eyebrows across the upper-class table as it not only reveals the utterer to be not quite the thing, but refers to a totally different course - the fruit at the very end of the meal.

The McCanns are a typical example of a lower-middle class couple striving to become middle-middle.

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by PeterMac on 21.12.13 14:22

Dee Coy wrote:
It's fascinating. Ultimately, the working and uppers classes are very similar as a result in the words that they use and the middle classes, in their attempt to refine themselves, have merely become stigmatized with unintentional labels that give them away. .
How many lower and striving-to-be-middle howlers can people spot here ?
And can they explain why they are non-U.
Non native English speakers will have a lot of fun / difficulty !

[quote]How To Get On In Society by John Betjeman

Phone for the fish knives, Norman
As cook is a little unnerved;
You kiddies have crumpled the serviettes
And I must have things daintily served.

Are the requisites all in the toilet?
The frills round the cutlets can wait
Till the girl has replenished the cruets
And switched on the logs in the grate.

It's ever so close in the lounge dear,
But the vestibule's comfy for tea
And Howard is riding on horseback
So do come and take some with me

Now here is a fork for your pastries
And do use the couch for your feet;
I know that I wanted to ask you -
Is trifle sufficient for sweet?

Milk and then just as it comes dear?
I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;
Beg pardon, I'm soiling the doileys
With afternoon tea-cakes and scones.
[/quote]

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by Miraflores on 21.12.13 14:29

Pudding/dessert was usually referred to in our household as 'afters', as in 'what's for afters?'. It might then have been rice pudding, tinned fruit with carnation evaporated milk, or banana and custard. For special occasions, an apple pie might be served up.

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by aquila on 21.12.13 14:34

Dee Coy wrote:Petermac, thanks for that illuminating (no pun intended) bit of social history. I love that sort of stuff.

A couple of centuries ago, when workers farmed the land and mined the pits the main meal would've been eaten at the end of the day after a 12 hour shift, with break in the middle to eat pie or whatever was brought to work as 'pack-up'. Only later, when people started to work in factories etc would there have been a dinnerbreak long enough for the workers to return home and eat their main meal - dinner - at midday. There are various words to describe working class mealtimes as we've seen on this thread, mainly because of the varying structures of the working day and also geographical differences.

When I grew up, we had breakfast, dinner, tea and supper just before bed. My dad, a lorry driver, had breakfast, packed lunch, dinner then supper. His dinner was his main meal when he got home at night, a special plate for him either cooked from scratch by mum, or reheated from the rest of the family's dinner from earlier.

The upper classes have never suffered such confusion as they've never had to work. Their mealtimes are, and have always been breakfast, lunch (luncheon still in very grand and royal houses), afternoon tea, dinner and sometimes supper too! However, now fewer have grand houses and fleets of servants, dinner is often now eaten in the kitchen and has become 'supper', or 'kitchen sups'. High tea was served to children in the nursery by their nannys about 5 or 6 o'clock as children were not permitted to attend dinner unless it was a special occasion.

The middle classes, as always desperate to distance themselves from the working class and climb towards the aristocracy, started calling the midday meal 'lunch', and 'tea' became dinner. The middles' ghastly 'high tea' was introduced to disinguish from 'afternoon tea' and is a less formal form of dinner, again, often given to children as an earlier meal and seperate from the adults who'll later have 'dinner'.

It's fascinating. Ultimately, the working and uppers classes are very similar as a result in the words that they use and the middle classes, in their attempt to refine themselves, have merely become stigmatized with unintentional labels that give them away. The working and upper classes both say 'pudding' for example, the middles have adopted 'dessert'. This hideous give-away would raise eyebrows across the upper-class table as it not only reveals the utterer to be not quite the thing, but refers to a totally different course - the fruit at the very end of the meal.

The McCanns are a typical example of being lower-middle class striving to become middle-middle.
What a great post. It sums things up nicely, your observations and facts are excellent.

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by Mirage on 21.12.13 14:44

My Aunt Mary was just like Margot in "The Good Life". I suppose she would be classed as OCD nowadays but going to stay with her was a daily revelation of quirky ways - insistence on coming downstairs once only, bringing all you needed for the day with you to save wear on the stair carpet. Shoes had to be turned upside down and left on top of the dustbin outside the back door. I have no memory of when they were eventually allowed house room but they were always dry for the next outing, so couldn't have been forgotten and left out in rain .

Washing the dishes was a strange ritual of pouring freshly boiled water over the washed pots and pans in the drainer. Left to dry then, with the tea towel covering only - no wiping. When dry, put away.

Lunch was passed to us children through the dining room window to the garden  where, on fine days, we would eat . Then the dishes passed back through the window; all to avoid the scourge of crumbs indoors.  

It was here that I was first introduced to the strange hybrid of "brunch" (breakfast and lunch, although Aunt M called it luncheon).  I think this was done to minimise the mess of two meals when they could be amalgamated into one.

So "brunch" everyone. Anyone else know of this repast?

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by mysterion on 21.12.13 14:58

Aspiration - In Georgian times it was fashionable and sexy to be fat because it infered wealth. If you weren`t fat, and you wanted to appear so, you could add clothes and insert cork in your mouth to puff out your cheeks. The plummy voice was born and copied by the aspirational as the correct way to speak.

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by aquila on 21.12.13 14:58

@Mirage wrote:My Aunt Mary was just like Margot in "The Good Life". I suppose she would be classed as OCD nowadays but going to stay with her was a daily revelation of quirky ways - insistence on coming downstairs once only, bringing all you needed for the day with you to save wear on the stair carpet. Shoes had to be turned upside down and left on top of the dustbin outside the back door. I have no memory of when they were eventually allowed house room but they were always dry for the next outing, so couldn't have been forgotten and left out in rain .

Washing the dishes was a strange ritual of pouring freshly boiled water over the washed pots and pans in the drainer. Left to dry then, with the tea towel covering only - no wiping. When dry, put away.

Lunch was passed to us children through the dining room window to the garden  where, on fine days, we would eat . Then the dishes passed back through the window; all to avoid the scourge of crumbs indoors.  

It was here that I was first introduced to the strange hybrid of "brunch" (breakfast and lunch, although Aunt M called it luncheon).  I think this was done to minimise the mess of two meals when they could be amalgamated into one.

So "brunch" everyone. Anyone else know of this repast?
Your Aunt sounds quite a 'character'.


I know what I call brunch. I make brunch most Sundays. It's an English breakfast (bacon, sausages, eggs, tomatoes, black pudding, mushrooms (field mushrooms) fried bread, sometimes fried potatoes, toast, marmalade, tea and orange juice, all served up very late (about 11am to midday) so it's neither breakfast nor lunch. Then it's read the newspapers - well not the papers - the supplements. It's a pleasure to cook and a pleasure to eat.

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by aquila on 21.12.13 15:04

@Miraflores wrote:Pudding/dessert was usually referred to in our household as 'afters', as in 'what's for afters?'. It might then have been rice pudding, tinned fruit with carnation evaporated milk, or banana and custard. For special occasions, an apple pie might be served up.
Do you remember having tinned fruit with bread and butter? I do.

I hated rice pudding and still can't look at it. Evaporated milk I love to this day. Bananas and custard I still love and still make for afters. I love bread and butter pudding and I wish I knew how to make 'chocolate concrete' the stuff we used to get in school.

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by joyce1938 on 21.12.13 15:28

Hi all, I have visited Scotland a few times ,and each time was taken out for High Tea,means same as our evening meal, I too thought it was to be cakes and sandwich ,nothing of class to it I think ,just different names in a different area . joyce1938

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by aquila on 21.12.13 15:39

@joyce1938 wrote:Hi all, I have visited Scotland a few times ,and each time was taken out for High Tea,means same as our evening meal, I too thought it was to be cakes and sandwich ,nothing of class to it I think ,just different names in a different area . joyce1938
My Mother was Scottish. I went to Scotland many, many times with my Mum and stayed with family. I've never heard the term 'high tea' in an ordinary household in Scotland. It's not a Scottish term - in fact I'll chance my arm and say that it's a very English thing and the Scottish avoid English terminology (don't blame them btw).

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by joyce1938 on 21.12.13 15:48

O K .the high tea was something you went out to eat ,as far as I can tell,this was in  Aberdeenarea ,I may ask my Swedish friend who  I had stayed with ,not certain when she will reply ,if I heari will say .would it maybe depend on age groups or areas? joyce1938

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by J4MM on 21.12.13 16:21

@aquila wrote:
@Miraflores wrote:Pudding/dessert was usually referred to in our household as 'afters', as in 'what's for afters?'. It might then have been rice pudding, tinned fruit with carnation evaporated milk, or banana and custard. For special occasions, an apple pie might be served up.
Do you remember having tinned fruit with bread and butter? I do.

I hated rice pudding and still can't look at it. Evaporated milk I love to this day. Bananas and custard I still love and still make for afters. I love bread and butter pudding and I wish I knew how to make 'chocolate concrete' the stuff we used to get in school.

Tinned fruit (preferably fruit cocktail), evaporated milk and 'a piece' - that's bread and butter where I come from, sago pudding and, on special occasions, arctic roll.

Aquila, I was given the recipe for chocolate concrete by a school cook many years ago.  I'm not sure if I should post it here or message you.

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by aquila on 21.12.13 16:38

@J4MM wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@Miraflores wrote:Pudding/dessert was usually referred to in our household as 'afters', as in 'what's for afters?'. It might then have been rice pudding, tinned fruit with carnation evaporated milk, or banana and custard. For special occasions, an apple pie might be served up.
Do you remember having tinned fruit with bread and butter? I do.

I hated rice pudding and still can't look at it. Evaporated milk I love to this day. Bananas and custard I still love and still make for afters. I love bread and butter pudding and I wish I knew how to make 'chocolate concrete' the stuff we used to get in school.

Tinned fruit (preferably fruit cocktail), evaporated milk and 'a piece' - that's bread and butter where I come from, sago pudding and, on special occasions, arctic roll.

Aquila, I was given the recipe for chocolate concrete by a school cook many years ago.  I'm not sure if I should post it here or message you.
My Mum used to say 'a piece and jam' (a jam sandwich). Tinned fruit cocktail (and I still like it) never had enough cherries and you always hoped you'd have a cherry in your bowl. Whenever I open a tin of fruit cocktail I still look to see how many cherries there are.

My Scottish Grannie (as opposed to the Welsh Grannie) used to make tattie scones with breakfast and Scottish sliced sausage is without doubt the best sausage meat. Mutton pies...I used to go to Gardners in Edinburgh as a little girl and have mutton pie (I still buy them from the supermarket in England but they don't taste the same).

Please put the chocolate concrete recipe up on the forum and also PM it to me in case it gets lost on a thread.

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by Guest on 21.12.13 16:49

Off topic, 

I wish all of you a happy Christmas! 
I hope some of it's peace will descend on this forum!
Reading here is like visiting a war zone.
That's not in the interest of little Madeleine McCann,
nor instrumental to finding out whatever happened to her!
All imo of course
Happy Christmas


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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by Guest on 21.12.13 17:57

Perhaps the stresses and strains of the run-up to Christmas are affecting some people, Parapono! All debates whether online or in reality can get a bit heated sometimes.

Ours was definitely an "afters" household - memories of really sickly tinned fruit salad come to mind.

Season's greetings to everyone - I hope that whatever you have planned goes well.

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by joyce1938 on 21.12.13 18:06

Hallo parapona,long time no see,hope you are fine and your lovely pictures are still ongoing. yes I must say it can get a bit odd on here of late ,but seems to get sorted without too much aggro. a lot of new people that are trying to get up todate ,it takes a time as we know to get to where we all prefer to be .keep going friend   joyce 1938

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by Guest on 21.12.13 20:57

parapono wrote:Off topic, 

I wish all of you a happy Christmas! 
I hope some of it's peace will descend on this forum!
Reading here is like visiting a war zone.
That's not in the interest of little Madeleine McCann,
nor instrumental to finding out whatever happened to her!
All imo of course
Happy Christmas


parapono

I agree a certain thread has become heated, but not this one, surely. It's opened up a friendly - I won't even call it a debate - contribution of personal histories, quite wonderful. PeterMac's quoting of Betjeman's iconic poem sums up the attitude of the aspiring middle classes marvellously  big grin .

Bit off-topic, I concur, but many have cited the McCann's middle class-ness as being the vehicle which has allowed them the leeway and polictical indulgence they have enjoyed.

A bit tenuous, maybe. But certainly no nastiness from anyone on this thread   friends.

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Re: More good ones on l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun

Post by Guest on 21.12.13 21:39

parapono wrote:Off topic, 

I wish all of you a happy Christmas! 
I hope some of it's peace will descend on this forum!
Reading here is like visiting a war zone.
That's not in the interest of little Madeleine McCann,
nor instrumental to finding out whatever happened to her!
All imo of course
Happy Christmas


parapono

Dear PP,

Your best wishes are returned here, and we wish you a very happy 2014!

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