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Being in two places at once

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.11.13 10:33

@joyce1938 wrote:Hi, just to add my thoughts to this...is it really possible to take it as truth, as Mr Amaral has said, there are only 3 times can be counted on, all others are open aren't they? - joyce1938
From the CMTV transcript:

Dr G Amaral:
 
"As far as accurate times are concerned, there are only three: The time at which they pick up Maddie from the crèche, which is at 5.30 p.m., the time of the payment at the restaurant by the Irish family, which is at 9.22 or 9.27 p.m., and the time of the phone call to GNR, which is at 10.47 p.m."
 
REPLY: Amaral says:   "The time at which they pick up Maddie from the crèche, which is at 5.30 pm..."

I disagree that the above statement is the truth.

I don't of course question that there's the Smiths' dinner bill at the Dolphin 9.22pm or 9.27pm, nor with the 'phone call to the GNR at 10.47pm. The Smiths have not yet proved that they were ever in Kelly's Bar that night

 

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2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by chillyheat on 21.11.13 10:37

@Tony Bennett wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
Tony, do you think as an ex copper Goncalo Amaral would not have been analysing the case since he left?  

REPLY: I am not sure to what extent he has occupied himself in keeping up with developments on the case - and in any case, the investigation is shelved - and so nothing much is happening within the Portuguese Police. Even if it was, it's far from certain that he would be told about anything significant. His recent statements suggest that if he has kept his eye on anything, it is the way the mainstream press in the UK continues to give a wholly one-sided picture of the case. He most certainly won't know what DCI Redwood has been up to

If we have been then why shouldn't he? He was at the centre of it after all and he is is much better placed to carry on analysing it.  He probably still has contacts, and he was also privy to far more information than we have.  For a start there is much information we are missing from the files, including maybe Mrs Smiths statement.  

REPLY: I think there is a very simple explanation for that. Mrs Mary Smith, along with the 3 other Smiths, visited a police station in Ireland originally to give statements, some time between 16 and 26 May 2007. However, Mrs Smith did not travel to Portugal on 26 May to make a statement to the PJ; that is why her statement is not there. It will bprobably be held by the Irish Gardai. Incidentally, Mrs Smith is reported as claiming that she spoke to the man, a statement not backed up by her husband and two sons
  

I am sure that as ex coordinator of the case he will still be studying it in great detail and I'm sure he knows more than any of us.

REPLY: I do not necessarily agree with you there. I think there are many things, many analyses, quite a bit of information on this very forum for example that he may be unaware of.

Is it not strange, if not bizarre, that Goncalo Amaral's attachment of great significance to the Smith sighting is now being taken up so enthusiastically by the McCann Team, the BBC and Scotland Yard?

If so many great people agree, why should I even think of raising any doubts?



Is it not strange, if not bizarre, that Goncalo Amaral's attachment of great significance to the Smith sighting is now being taken up so enthusiastically by the McCann Team, the BBC and Scotland Yard?



What do you make of this strangeness Tony, I mean could you elaborate please ?
Personally, I tend not to trust investigators involved within the whole case....Not one....My opinion big grin 

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by PeterMac on 21.11.13 10:47


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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Guest on 21.11.13 10:48

@Tony Bennett wrote:

Is it not strange, if not bizarre, that Goncalo Amaral's attachment of great significance to the Smith sighting is now being taken up so enthusiastically by the McCann Team, the BBC and Scotland Yard?





Perhaps the comprehensive phone analysis places Gerry's phone somewhere else at the key moment?

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Mirage on 21.11.13 11:08

@PeterMac wrote:
What's with the walk?? Does he think he's wearing an invisibility cloak?

 Not quite the Fred Astaire tripping the light fantastic outside the Lisbon courthouse. More like Quasimodo on his way up Notre Dame to ring the bells.

ETA Is the woman behind ape-ing him, thinking this is the correct way to walk when in PdL?

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Guest on 21.11.13 11:15

@Mirage wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
What's with the walk?? Does he think he's wearing an invisibility cloak?

 Not quite the Fred Astaire tripping the light fantastic outside the Lisbon courthouse. More like Quasimodo on his way up Notre Dame to ring the bells.
What is interesting about that is, assuming it was taken in 2007, Gerry had much more hair than I realised. Not long as such, but more like Tannerman than I originally thought quite thick at the back, not shaved. Did he get it cut in the following days?

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Guest on 21.11.13 12:59

@lj wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:1. Who was in a 'desperate situation' and why?  If there had been an accident, there'd be no need to cover it up.

2. No-one can say with any certainty that no other person or persons saw what the Smiths' claim to have seen.

3. If you look at map of Luz you'll see there is a beach nearer to 5A than the one which is situated close to the Smiths' sighting.   Why head for the beach which carried a greater risk of being seen - unless, perhaps, that beach was not the intended destination?

I agree that the Smiths may not have made an immediate connection between news of a missing child and the child they allegedly saw apparently being carried home by her father, but I cannot agree that any of the doctor members of the Tapas 9 would panic in an emergency and I'd like to know why you believe differently.
Alcohol does funny things, even to doctors. A group of cardiologists had diner in a restaurant. One of them slipped on the last steps of the stairs, alcohol played a role there too. What followed was almost a slapstick film. His drunk colleagues started an unnecessary and unprofessional CPR that costed him most of  his ribs. By the time the ambulance arrived he really needed emergency care.  

The panic here could very well have been caused by a guilty conscience. Add some New Zealand wine, a daiquiri, more wine and you have the perfect mix for stupid decisions.
And maybe one or more of the good doctors had no drinks at all and were cold sober;

KHs strong emphasis on her own and GMs heavy drinking -pre-Tapas- has always seemed rather suspicious to me

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by galena on 21.11.13 13:41

@roy rovers wrote:Say MM had been dead for days. GM and KM had scoped out a hiding place to which GM was to take MM under cover of darkness and under cover of the confusion of the 'abduction' alarm - say the church. Before he gets out of the complex GM bumps into Jez Wilkins and has to hide MM at the foot of the steps for a bit putting the plan into disarray. Then off he heads down the hill past the Smiths etc.  What's wrong with that for a theory?
The bit in bold is what's wrong with your theory.  If the Smith sighting was of Gerry or someone else carrying Madeleine, it seems pretty certain that she was either still alive or at least could still pass for being asleep.  Which would probably not be the case if she had been dead for days!

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Nightfly on 21.11.13 13:50

Perhaps I'm getting a bit too predictable but I am still convinced that a car/van was used - who, even if drunk would think that running through the streets with a (dead) child would be a good idea especially educated professional people?  I just dont believe anybody saw the removal. The town was swamming with police, dogs, hotel workers helpful concerned holiday makers, journalists, helicopters and then to believe that she would be left just down the road at the local beach? No, no chance especially if pre-planned as everyone appears to hypothesize. I think anyone with a modicum of intelligence would go in the opposite direction out of town, off route to derelict house or rented villa (and we know who rented them!) - or more likely held in boot of car for a day or two at a safe distance away, before moving again. The Smiths are like Tannerman and the couple of dozen other drawings and sightings - all designed to take your mind away from the obvious - I dont believe anyone saw anything. I also had to laugh at the report of man on moped riding off and throwing his moped in the back of a van - who was he giant haystacks!!

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Guest on 21.11.13 14:25

@Nightfly wrote:Perhaps I'm getting a bit too predictable but I am still convinced that a car/van was used - who, even if drunk would think that running through the streets with a (dead) child would be a good idea especially educated professional people?  I just dont believe anybody saw the removal. The town was swamming with police, dogs, hotel workers helpful concerned holiday makers, journalists, helicopters and then to believe that she would be left just down the road at the local beach? No, no chance especially if pre-planned as everyone appears to hypothesize. I think anyone with a modicum of intelligence would go in the opposite direction out of town, off route to derelict house or rented villa (and we know who rented them!) - or more likely held in boot of car for a day or two at a safe distance away, before moving again. The Smiths are like Tannerman and the couple of dozen other drawings and sightings - all designed to take your mind away from the obvious - I dont believe anyone saw anything. I also had to laugh at the report of man on moped riding off and throwing his moped in the back of a van - who was he giant haystacks!!
What was that rather odd report of a building very close to 5A where some suspicious materials were found? I can't track it down now.

I agree with your post BTW. I jokingly made a reference elsewhere to Smithman running around with a mannequin. I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand though. But far more likely it never happened at all.

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Malinkas freezer

Post by GEROME THE GNOME on 21.11.13 14:50

The risk would be worth it if Murat had been brought back to organise the whole thing and had arranged for a temporary stay in Malinkas freezer. He lived a few yards from the Smith sighting and was in phone contact with Murat very late that same evening. David, Gerry, Robert and Serge...is there a connection?...was the eye shadow pic a warning?

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by tiny on 21.11.13 16:01

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@Nightfly wrote:Perhaps I'm getting a bit too predictable but I am still convinced that a car/van was used - who, even if drunk would think that running through the streets with a (dead) child would be a good idea especially educated professional people?  I just dont believe anybody saw the removal. The town was swamming with police, dogs, hotel workers helpful concerned holiday makers, journalists, helicopters and then to believe that she would be left just down the road at the local beach? No, no chance especially if pre-planned as everyone appears to hypothesize. I think anyone with a modicum of intelligence would go in the opposite direction out of town, off route to derelict house or rented villa (and we know who rented them!) - or more likely held in boot of car for a day or two at a safe distance away, before moving again. The Smiths are like Tannerman and the couple of dozen other drawings and sightings - all designed to take your mind away from the obvious - I dont believe anyone saw anything. I also had to laugh at the report of man on moped riding off and throwing his moped in the back of a van - who was he giant haystacks!!
What was that rather odd report of a building very close to 5A where some suspicious materials were found? I can't track it down now.

I agree with your post BTW. I jokingly made a reference elsewhere to Smithman running around with a mannequin. I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand though. But far more likely it never happened at all.
there was no one around when the Smith Family saw who they said was Gerry.what do you mean by this bit in blue.

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Hicks on 21.11.13 18:56

@GEROME THE GNOME wrote:The risk would be worth it if Murat had been brought back to organise the whole thing and had arranged for a temporary stay in Malinkas freezer. He lived a few yards from the Smith sighting and was in phone contact with Murat very late that same evening. David, Gerry, Robert and Serge...is there a connection?...was the eye shadow pic a warning?
I think you have something here. I didn't know that Malinka lived yards away from the Smith sighting, this could be where Smithman was heading all along. I am sure that Murat is involved, he and Malinka could have provided the breathing space until a plan could be thought out properly.
Murat hired the car in a hurry from the 12th May to the 15th. Phone records show that these dates are very important to the investigation.

I don't believe Murat was brought back to organise the whole thing, I think M died on the evening of the 3rd, Murat was seen by EIGHT independent witnesses around the OC, I think he was doing some organising that night.

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Guest on 21.11.13 19:54

@Hicks wrote:[...] Murat was seen by EIGHT independent witnesses around the OC, I think he was doing some organising that night.
***
Eight!? I've been following this case since 6+ years and I am not aware of EIGHT Independent witnesses ...
Could you elaborate, please?

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Guest on 21.11.13 20:11

***
I'd still be grateful for you to point out the EIGHT independent witnesses, without referring me to tabloid articles and websites.
Or at least copy the relevant parts of it.
TA

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.11.13 20:23

@Hicks wrote:
 Murat was seen by EIGHT independent witnesses around the OC, I think he was doing some organising that night.
It might have been eight, there might have been a tabloid story to this effect in the autumn of 2007. 

At least four of them, if not all, were not independent.

Three were the 'Tapas 3' (FP, RO'B, RO), who all said they'd seen Murat 'around the OC' that night. They told thje police on 15 May, the day after Murat was pulled in for questioning in a blaze of publicity. All these three later changed their story and said it wasn't him and that they might have mistaken him for David Payne or Angus Symington. Someone at the time helpfully supplied the tabloids with photos of those two looking very like Murat (I wonder who?).

A fourth was 'an unnamed barrister' who seems to pop up everywhere in this story like an unwanted pop-up advert on the internet.

I suspect if you look very closely at the other four 'sightings' of Murat (if there were indeed eight altogether), there might be some doubts about the 'independence' of those other four as well. 

Smoke...

...and...

...mirrors...

____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Hicks on 21.11.13 20:26

McCannfiles ok as a source?

I understand that you question the number as eight as three of the McCann's group gave statements to this fact. I count them in because they may have been telling the truth.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id218.html
.

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 21.11.13 20:43

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Hicks wrote:
 Murat was seen by EIGHT independent witnesses around the OC, I think he was doing some organising that night.
It might have been eight, there might have been a tabloid story to this effect in the autumn of 2007. 

At least four of them, if not all, were not independent.

Three were the 'Tapas 3' (FP, RO'B, RO), who all said they'd seen Murat 'around the OC' that night. They told thje police on 15 May, the day after Murat was pulled in for questioning in a blaze of publicity. All these three later changed their story and said it wasn't him and that they might have mistaken him for David Payne or Angus Symington. Someone at the time helpfully supplied the tabloids with photos of those two looking very like Murat (I wonder who?).

A fourth was 'an unnamed barrister' who seems to pop up everywhere in this story like an unwanted pop-up advert on the internet.

I suspect if you look very closely at the other four 'sightings' of Murat (if there were indeed eight altogether), there might be some doubts about the 'independence' of those other four as well. 

Smoke...

...and...

...mirrors…
You called, Sir?  laughat 

I've always found these "sightings" of Murat by members of the Tapas mob odd. He lives a few yards down the lane, why the Dickens shouldn't be in his own neighbourhood? Regardless of his change in story, in theory, the proximity of his house doesn't exactly make a sighting of him extraordinary.

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.11.13 20:52

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
I've always found these "sightings" of Murat by members of the Tapas mob odd. He lives a few yards down the lane, why the Dickens shouldn't be in his own neighbourhood? Regardless of his change in story, in theory, the proximity of his house doesn't exactly make a sighting of him extraordinary.
Don't forget that Murat (bless him) purported on the morning of 4 May not to know what had gone on the night before.

According to Murat/Stephen Carpenter, Murat only found out by chatting to Carpenter over the garden hedge as he sauntered by between 9am and 10am that morning.

A likely story - especially as he'd spoken both Sergei Malinka and Michaela Walczuk at near midnight the night before - a fact he denied when first questioned by the PJ on 14 May.

When forced by phone antenna records to tell something more like the truth to the PJ two months later (10 and 11 July), he claimed he had been 'too tired' to tell the truth on 14 May.

Yet another likely tale!

____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Hicks on 21.11.13 20:53

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Hicks wrote:
 Murat was seen by EIGHT independent witnesses around the OC, I think he was doing some organising that night.
It might have been eight, there might have been a tabloid story to this effect in the autumn of 2007. 

At least four of them, if not all, were not independent.

Three were the 'Tapas 3' (FP, RO'B, RO), who all said they'd seen Murat 'around the OC' that night. They told thje police on 15 May, the day after Murat was pulled in for questioning in a blaze of publicity. All these three later changed their story and said it wasn't him and that they might have mistaken him for David Payne or Angus Symington. Someone at the time helpfully supplied the tabloids with photos of those two looking very like Murat (I wonder who?).

A fourth was 'an unnamed barrister' who seems to pop up everywhere in this story like an unwanted pop-up advert on the internet.

I suspect if you look very closely at the other four 'sightings' of Murat (if there were indeed eight altogether), there might be some doubts about the 'independence' of those other four as well. 

Smoke...

...and...

...mirrors…
You called, Sir?  laughat 

I've always found these "sightings" of Murat by members of the Tapas mob odd. He lives a few yards down the lane, why the Dickens shouldn't be in his own neighbourhood? Regardless of his change in story, in theory, the proximity of his house doesn't exactly make a sighting of him extraordinary.
Except RM insists he was at home , never ventured out at all that evening.

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Guest on 21.11.13 20:57

@Hicks wrote:McCannfiles ok as a source?

I understand that you question the number as eight as three of the McCann's group gave statements to this fact. I count them in because they may have been telling the truth.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id218.html
.
***
Dear Hicks, mccannfiles is a completely reliable source, yet in the above link is only documenting tabloids. That's not evidence ...

ETA And I would, under circumstances, NOT count 3 of Tapas 9 as "telling he truth" ... They've been telling many porkies, as IS evidenced.

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Hicks on 21.11.13 21:00

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
I've always found these "sightings" of Murat by members of the Tapas mob odd. He lives a few yards down the lane, why the Dickens shouldn't be in his own neighbourhood? Regardless of his change in story, in theory, the proximity of his house doesn't exactly make a sighting of him extraordinary.
Don't forget that Murat (bless him) purported on the morning of 4 May not to know what had gone on the night before.

According to Murat/Stephen Carpenter, Murat only found out by chatting to Carpenter over the garden hedge as he sauntered by between 9am and 10am that morning.

A likely story - especially as he'd spoken both Sergei Malinka and Michaela Walczuk at near midnight the night before - a fact he denied when first questioned by the PJ on 14 May.

When forced by phone antenna records to tell something more like the truth to the PJ two months later (10 and 11 July), he claimed he had been 'too tired' to tell the truth on 14 May.

Yet another likely tale!
Tony, am I right in thinking that Murat's- then-girlfriend MW, claimed that on the night of the 3rd she was at a Jehovah meeting however this was denied as it was said she had been thrown out of the group some time before?

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Guest on 21.11.13 22:26


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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 21.11.13 22:36

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
I've always found these "sightings" of Murat by members of the Tapas mob odd. He lives a few yards down the lane, why the Dickens shouldn't be in his own neighbourhood? Regardless of his change in story, in theory, the proximity of his house doesn't exactly make a sighting of him extraordinary.
Don't forget that Murat (bless him) purported on the morning of 4 May not to know what had gone on the night before.

According to Murat/Stephen Carpenter, Murat only found out by chatting to Carpenter over the garden hedge as he sauntered by between 9am and 10am that morning.

A likely story - especially as he'd spoken both Sergei Malinka and Michaela Walczuk at near midnight the night before - a fact he denied when first questioned by the PJ on 14 May.

When forced by phone antenna records to tell something more like the truth to the PJ two months later (10 and 11 July), he claimed he had been 'too tired' to tell the truth on 14 May.

Yet another likely tale!
The whole thing has been a "likely tale". Not ONE SINGLE THING that has gone on, nothing, has been consistent or probable. Every last point has a dirty great question mark hanging over it, doesn't add up or is plain ridiculous. From the phone records, creche records, hire car forms, who took photos, Tapas bookings, up and down and round the houses like yo-yo's with a tangled string. The whole motley crew should be had up on wasting police time.

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