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Question about Amaral's legal fees

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Question about Amaral's legal fees

Post by fuzzyslippers on 16.11.13 14:51

Perhaps this has already been answered; if so, I apologize. If (and when, I hope) the Mccann's lose their libel case, will they be liable for the costs of Amaral's defense?

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Re: Question about Amaral's legal fees

Post by suzyjohnson on 16.11.13 15:59

I don't know. You would think so wouldn't you?

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Re: Question about Amaral's legal fees

Post by fuzzyslippers on 16.11.13 16:08

@suzyjohnson wrote:I don't know. You would think so wouldn't you?
I hope so. That would offer some measure of gratification.

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Re: Question about Amaral's legal fees

Post by PeterMac on 16.11.13 16:10

Normally legal costs follow the event.
I cannot imagine it is different in Portugal, but I suspect we can look it up.

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Re: Question about Amaral's legal fees

Post by Estelle on 16.11.13 16:12

Usually the person who loses the case has to pay the other person's legal fees.

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Re: Question about Amaral's legal fees

Post by ultimaThule on 16.11.13 16:15

@fuzzyslippers wrote:Perhaps this has already been answered; if so, I apologize. If (and when, I hope) the Mccann's lose their libel case, will they be liable for the costs of Amaral's defense?
If they lose and costs are awarded against them, they'll be liable for their own costs and for the legal costs of Dr Amaral and for the legal costs of the three other defendants named in their Plaint.

There have been 2 appeals in this case;  the first being Dr Amaral, his publisher, and the book distributor's appeal against the injunction imposed by the court on the sale of his book which was upheld by the Appellate Court, and the second being the McCanns' appeal to the Supreme Court against the Appellate Court's judgement. 

The Supreme Court upheld the Appellate Court's judgement and it's my understanding costs were awarded against the McCanns on both occasions.

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Re: Question about Amaral's legal fees

Post by Snifferdog on 16.11.13 16:22

No wonder Gerry looked so muderously angry when he lost the case - it hurt him where it hurts him the most - his pocket - and Kate has been trying to soothe it - As Seen Oin TV

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Found it.

Post by PeterMac on 16.11.13 16:23

Note that all the payments made shall be afforded, at the end, by the loser. For that purpose, the court and the winner shall present to the loser a detailed account with all the charges incurred because of the litigation – see Articles 4 and 32 of the current Portuguese Legal Costs’ Code.

2. Who bears the costs?  
How are the costs ultimately divided between the parties and/or others (the state etc)?

The main principle is that legal costs shall be paid by the loser. Even the expenses paid by the various interveners in a procedure are able to be reimbursed later on by the loser, at the end of the procedure – see Article 33-A of the Portuguese Legal Costs’ Code.

Who reimburses/indemnifies/pays which of the items listed in paragraphs 1.1-1.7 above?

Portuguese Law provides for the responsibility of the loser to pay all the costs arising from the claim. This rule is based on the principle that the costs incurred in civil litigation must be borne by the party that led to the litigation. Thus, the court shall present the final account to the loser of the action for payment. On its turn, the winner can demand the payment of any expenses incurred because of the claim, including the lawyers’ fees (determined according to equity) and justice fees - see Articles 32 and 89 of the Portuguese Legal Costs’ Code.

So pretty much the same as other sensible systems.

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Re: Question about Amaral's legal fees

Post by Guest on 16.11.13 16:41

@Snifferdog wrote:No wonder Gerry looked so muderously angry when he lost the case - it hurt him where it hurts him the most - his pocket - and Kate has been trying to soothe it - As Seen Oin TV
Didn't Brian Kennedy promise to meet all the McCs litigation expenses forever and forever, no matter what?

No reason at all for GM to feel aggrieved then, whatever the outcome

And there is still the Limited Fund

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Re: Question about Amaral's legal fees

Post by Snifferdog on 16.11.13 16:50

it is hard for me to know what to believe when it comes out of TM  aaah the fund  IMO the fund is a limited co. for the benefit of the mccanns too.  i think that they view the fund as theirs IMO.sorry for yping errors t using my ailing cellphone and it jumps around ad freezes.

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Re: Question about Amaral's legal fees

Post by ultimaThule on 16.11.13 17:02

This will be my bedtime reading tonight:
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.csls.ox.ac.uk%2Fdocuments%2FPORTUGAL.doc&ei=4aCHUuzXDYTPhAfH8YHIBg&usg=AFQjCNEpcoH0WdFLW9XaP6eLxdY9XVinMA&bvm=bv.56643336,d.ZG4

Instead of counting flying pigs, I'll be counting the number of hours Izzy and her assistants, and the Court translators, have spent on the case. plus the probable cost of the number of times the McCanns have flown themselves and their witnesses to and from Lisbon with overnight hotel stays, + court and lawyer costs for appeals x 2, etc etc.  I expect to be in the land of nod long before reaching 500,000euros big grin

Can you provide a link to the Portuguese Legal Costs Code, Petermac,  as I can only find references to certain sections?

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Re: Question about Amaral's legal fees

Post by fuzzyslippers on 16.11.13 17:10

@PeterMac wrote:
Note that all the payments made shall be afforded, at the end, by the loser. For that purpose, the court and the winner shall present to the loser a detailed account with all the charges incurred because of the litigation – see Articles 4 and 32 of the current Portuguese Legal Costs’ Code.

2. Who bears the costs?  
How are the costs ultimately divided between the parties and/or others (the state etc)?

The main principle is that legal costs shall be paid by the loser. Even the expenses paid by the various interveners in a procedure are able to be reimbursed later on by the loser, at the end of the procedure – see Article 33-A of the Portuguese Legal Costs’ Code.

Who reimburses/indemnifies/pays which of the items listed in paragraphs 1.1-1.7 above?

Portuguese Law provides for the responsibility of the loser to pay all the costs arising from the claim. This rule is based on the principle that the costs incurred in civil litigation must be borne by the party that led to the litigation. Thus, the court shall present the final account to the loser of the action for payment. On its turn, the winner can demand the payment of any expenses incurred because of the claim, including the lawyers’ fees (determined according to equity) and justice fees - see Articles 32 and 89 of the Portuguese Legal Costs’ Code.
So pretty much the same as other sensible systems.

Thanks for your and everyone else's help. I'm a Yank so I'm not up to speed on the court systems in European countries.

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Re: Question about Amaral's legal fees

Post by PeterMac on 16.11.13 21:23

Sorry.
Tricky to get as it downloads the pdf immediately and doesn't leave the reference on screen ! ! !

www.csls.ox.ac.uk/documents/PORTUGAL.doc‎
which is
University of Oxford
Centre for Socio-Legal Studies

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Re: Question about Amaral's legal fees

Post by ultimaThule on 16.11.13 22:30

It is tricky... your link (which doesn't work for me) is one and the same I provided! big grin  Here's one of the opening paragraphs:

           "Concerning the justice fees, the amount that shall be paid depends on the value of the claim and the type of civil procedure, whether it is a declarative action, an enforcement action or an injunction or any other special procedure. According to these criteria, the justice fee of a declarative action is paid in two installments, usually known as initial justice fee and subsequent justice fee – see article 22 of the current Portuguese Legal Costs’ Code. The amount of the justice fee on a declarative action will be different, according to the value of the claim. Thus, when the value of the claim is between € 500 and € 250,000, it shall vary from € 96 to € 2,304; when the value of the claim is up to € 250,000 it is necessary to pay, at the end of the procedure, an additional sum of € 480 of justice fee for each additional amount of € 25,000. On an enforcement action, the justice fee will vary from € 24 to € 48 and finally, in the case of special procedure to obtain the payment of a debt arising from commercial relationships, the justice fee will vary from € 24 to € 91
            The Portuguese Legal Costs’ Law provides for some exemptions of payment of justice charges in some special cases and to specially defined people, such as the State institutions, children’ s related actions, People Actions, political parties, Public Prosecution Services when acting on its own duty – see Articles 2 and 3 of the current Portuguese Legal Costs’ Code.
         Those exemptions do not cover charges and costs incurred by the counterparty in the action, so that when a party loses a civil action, he/she shall pay the costs borne by the winner – see Article 33 of the current Portuguese Legal Costs’ Code.
from which it appears the plaintiffs, who are claiming c1.2million euros from the defendants, have already invested some 160,000+ euros in justice (court) fees excluding their legal costs and other expenses and, presumably, whatever justice fees if any were applicable to their unsuccessful appeal to the Supreme Court.  

I am wondering whether this sum has been in any way reduced by the plaint containing "children's related actions" and I'm curious to know whether the fines of the 'old system' which, as far as I can ascertain, doubled or tripled the justice costs, are still handed down where losers have been found to have acted in bad faith.  
It appears more googling is required  yes   but, in the meantime, that total of 500,000 euros I mentioned earlier would seem not to be far off the amount the McCanns have invested to date in their attempt to grab 1 million+ euros unless, of course, Izzy is working on a no win - no fee basis and I trust she's far too astute to enter into that type of arrangement with clients who are not domiciled in Portugal. 
Here's hoping Dr Amaral and his co-defendants get a gi-normous bang from the McCanns' bucks sarcastic

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