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CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Monty Heck on 24.11.13 13:01

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Monty Heck wrote:
Have been a few times in Kelly's.  IIRC the system there is the same as generally used in that part of the Algarve, you order drinks and a tab is started which you pay before you leave.  Some bars use chits of paper which are stuck on a spike then tallied at the end but others do it electronically - sorry, can't confirm though which system Kelly's uses. It wouldn't be unusual for people who are having just one round of drinks to ask to pay the bill at the bar when they get them, so they can leave without any delay as soon as they are finished.
It is claimed by the Smiths that Peter Smith's wife was pregnant and unwell and that they wanted to get back to their Estrala da Luz apartment early because they [Peter Smithj & family] were leaving early on a plane the following day.

We have their Dolphin Restaurant dinner receipt at 9.22pm or 9.27pm.

It seems strange that after having quite a lot of drinks with their meal (see the receipt), they would want to go to Kelly's Bar for 30 minutes or so drinking time after that.

If this system was used:

It wouldn't be unusual for people who are having just one round of drinks to ask to pay the bill at the bar when they get them

...then why didn't they pay for drinks on arrival, instead of waiting until 9.39pm (see list of kelly's Bar receipts)?

if this system was used

you order drinks and a tab is started which you pay before you leave

...then the only receipts that 'fit' are the three at 9.46pm, 9.49pm and 9.50pm, for either 8 or 5 euros, not much of a drinks bill for 9 people.

In other words, evidence that the Smiths were ever in Kelly's Bar that night is still absent, plus the PJ interviewed the bar manager on duty that night and he had no recollection of a party of 4 adults and 5 children being there  
Just back and catching up, thank you for your response TB.  It does seem contradictory to say that a pregnant member of the group who felt unwell and an early flight next morning curtailed the Smith family visit to Kelly's, as these would tend to support a decision to forego the visit altogether.  As you say, there seems to be no reliable corroborative evidence that the trip to Kelly's ever took place, which was what my post was intended to point out, perhaps not very successfully.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Monty Heck on 24.11.13 13:28

@ultimaThule wrote:
@currio wrote:Anyone know what ever become of the original priest?
Could he have been taken too, currio? big grin
That's quite an interesting story.  Before the previous incumbent, a Rev Eric Birt IIRC, left there had been a sustained period of lobbying by some members of the western congregation of St Vincent's Algarve, based in PDL, who wished his removal.  The parish also covers the Eastern Algarve, which congregation were supporters so there seems to have been some acrimony.  After he left, the PDL chaplaincy house underwent extensive refurbishment with a view to housing the incoming priest as he had a family of young children.  That was fairly unusual as previous priests had been nearer retirement age and therefore without family responsibilities. 

Rev Hubbard's arrival was planned well in advance and I believe he had visited the Algarve while negotiations  for his installation were underway.  His arrival with his family the weekend after MMcC disappeared seems therefore quite coincidental.  Some parishoners but by no means all seemed to find HH rather charismatic but he was by no means universally popular, not least because of his and his wfe's personal relationship with the McCanns.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Nina on 24.11.13 14:52

@Monty Heck wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@currio wrote:Anyone know what ever become of the original priest?
Could he have been taken too, currio? big grin
That's quite an interesting story.  Before the previous incumbent, a Rev Eric Birt IIRC, left there had been a sustained period of lobbying by some members of the western congregation of St Vincent's Algarve, based in PDL, who wished his removal.  The parish also covers the Eastern Algarve, which congregation were supporters so there seems to have been some acrimony.  After he left, the PDL chaplaincy house underwent extensive refurbishment with a view to housing the incoming priest as he had a family of young children.  That was fairly unusual as previous priests had been nearer retirement age and therefore without family responsibilities. 

Rev Hubbard's arrival was planned well in advance and I believe he had visited the Algarve while negotiations  for his installation were underway.  His arrival with his family the weekend after MMcC disappeared seems therefore quite coincidental.  Some parishoners but by no means all seemed to find HH rather charismatic but he was by no means universally popular, not least because of his and his wfe's personal relationship with the McCanns.


So the Chaplaincy House, which is close to the church was empty the night of the 3rd. I understand also that it wasn't quite ready when the Hubbard family arrived and they had to be either in an hotel or another apartment but I cannot find the link now. Also from  friend who lived very close to PdL was told there is a small private chapel within the house and grounds. I cannot prove that but assume it is correct as would be likely for the resident priest's private prayer.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Nina on 24.11.13 14:53

@Nina wrote:
@Monty Heck wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@currio wrote:Anyone know what ever become of the original priest?
Could he have been taken too, currio? big grin
That's quite an interesting story.  Before the previous incumbent, a Rev Eric Birt IIRC, left there had been a sustained period of lobbying by some members of the western congregation of St Vincent's Algarve, based in PDL, who wished his removal.  The parish also covers the Eastern Algarve, which congregation were supporters so there seems to have been some acrimony.  After he left, the PDL chaplaincy house underwent extensive refurbishment with a view to housing the incoming priest as he had a family of young children.  That was fairly unusual as previous priests had been nearer retirement age and therefore without family responsibilities. 

Rev Hubbard's arrival was planned well in advance and I believe he had visited the Algarve while negotiations  for his installation were underway.  His arrival with his family the weekend after MMcC disappeared seems therefore quite coincidental.  Some parishoners but by no means all seemed to find HH rather charismatic but he was by no means universally popular, not least because of his and his wfe's personal relationship with the McCanns.


So the Chaplaincy House, which is close to the church was empty the night of the 3rd. I understand also that it wasn't quite ready when the Hubbard family arrived and they had to be either in an hotel or another apartment but I cannot find the link now. Also from  friend who lived very close to PdL was told there is a small private chapel within the house and grounds. I cannot prove that but assume it is correct as would be likely for the resident priest's private prayer.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by mysterion on 24.11.13 14:57

Was the chaplaincy house searched by the police?

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Guest on 24.11.13 14:59

@Nina wrote: [...]

So the Chaplaincy House, which is close to the church was empty the night of the 3rd. I understand also that it wasn't quite ready when the Hubbard family arrived and they had to be either in an hotel or another apartment but I cannot find the link now. Also from  friend who lived very close to PdL was told there is a small private chapel within the house and grounds. I cannot prove that but assume it is correct as would be likely for the resident priest's private prayer.
***
Yes, I heard about that too, Nina, a small chapel at the chaplain's house. And remember, that Kate mentioned, she found peace in a "small chapel", when being in PdL. I'll try and find a map for the exact location of the chaplaincy.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Nina on 24.11.13 15:06

Châtelaine wrote:
@Nina wrote: [...]

So the Chaplaincy House, which is close to the church was empty the night of the 3rd. I understand also that it wasn't quite ready when the Hubbard family arrived and they had to be either in an hotel or another apartment but I cannot find the link now. Also from  friend who lived very close to PdL was told there is a small private chapel within the house and grounds. I cannot prove that but assume it is correct as would be likely for the resident priest's private prayer.
***
Yes, I heard about that too, Nina, a small chapel at the chaplain's house. And remember, that Kate mentioned, she found peace in a "small chapel", when being in PdL. I'll try and find a map for the exact location of the chaplaincy.
Thank you Châtelaine. I am experiencing Internet problems at the moment and struggling to find anything. And also read that the builders were still in on the 6th and the Hubbards couldn't move in for a couple of days.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Guest on 24.11.13 15:13

@Mirage wrote:
@mysterion wrote:Would it be possible for a catholic not to be aware of the "not in communion" status? I have read somewhere that KM was not a devout or church going catholic.
Although I get the impression that KM was not a regular communicant. I think, as a cradle Catholic she would certainly be aware of all other denominations not being "The True Faith" and therefore not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

I have seen a photo of her as a young girl of about eight or nine in her First Communion dress with another first communicant. The catechism she would have received would have left her in no doubt about the supremacy of the RC Church over all other branches of the faith through the direct succession to Peter, Christ's Vicar on earth, regarded as the first pope. This is so, even today in catechising. In a Catholic school of the 70s, which she attended, certainly at secondary stage, the ethos alone would have been a constant reminder to her, with photographs of Christ's Vicar on earth all around. 

It should not be underestimated either that the Liverpool Catholic heritage has added potency from the large Irish  influence -  a rich part of the fabric of that city's heritage.

Finally, I am sure that a well-educated woman would have difficulty in NOT being aware of the "not in communion" status.
Reading this as an "athiest" (don't like the word for various reasons not to be gone into here) this depresses me immensely. I absolutely abhor people hiding behind "groups" for protection yet the McCanns seem to ally themselves, deliberately or otherwise, with powerful special interests that would look out for them in times of crisis - so they are at once Catholic, middle-class, doctors, presumably NewLabour, Scottish and scouse yet also Irish, possibly freemasons and possibly cateniens - when viewed in those terms it's not so hard to understand the extraordinary measure of support that they received.

In the same circumstances I suspect I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Which is why it's a very good job that I'd never find myself in the same circumstances.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by currio on 24.11.13 15:24

@ultimaThule wrote:
@currio wrote:Anyone know what ever become of the original priest?
Could he have been taken too, currio? big grin
Well, the reason I asked was I was an avid reader of the story for the first 6 months or so, and then moved on when they escaped!....was just draw back to look it up when I noticed the case in Portugal was reopened.

In the early days, whether it was a forum myth or not...I do not know...but it was said that the original Priest that dealt with the MC's had said he had been conned, and took a vow of silence and went off to live in a Monastery. I thought perhaps more about him might  have come out in the books etc. published since?...

I thought he knew precisely what had happened. Maybe one day he will come forward...

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by ultimaThule on 24.11.13 16:16

@currio wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@currio wrote:Anyone know what ever become of the original priest?
Could he have been taken too, currio? big grin
Well, the reason I asked was I was an avid reader of the story for the first 6 months or so, and then moved on when they escaped!....was just draw back to look it up when I noticed the case in Portugal was reopened.

In the early days, whether it was a forum myth or not...I do not know...but it was said that the original Priest that dealt with the MC's had said he had been conned, and took a vow of silence and went off to live in a Monastery. I thought perhaps more about him might  have come out in the books etc. published since?...

I thought he knew precisely what had happened. Maybe one day he will come forward...
I took that priest to be the RC one who responded to the McCanns the following day, as opposed to the Anglican vicar who shares what was originally a solely catholic church, and assumed he was the one who was alleged to have been 'deceived' and 'broken' by his experience of the pair. 

With regard to Revd Hubbard's predecessor, a search of 'Birt' in Crockfords shows P Birt and R A Birt as being retired.  There is no entry for E Birt but a D E Birt is shown as being in service with the Diocese of London.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by ultimaThule on 24.11.13 16:24

They certainly to have all the bases covered, Clay, but IMO the most persuasive in terms of the way in which the UK media in particular initially reported the story is 'middle class doctors' reinforced by their being on holiday with a group of other 'middle class doctors' - 'doctors' being seen as bastions of society, doers of no wrong, and savers of lives, when the reality is they also kill with a quite alarming frequency.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Guest on 24.11.13 16:51

@currio wrote: [...]
In the early days, whether it was a forum myth or not...I do not know...but it was said that the original Priest that dealt with the MC's had said he had been conned [...].
***
A myth indeed [by UK tabloids], contradicted or at least not confirmed by Father Pacheco's own statement to the police:

Processo Vol XIII 3924 to 3926
Translation of Father Pachecos Statement to the PJ 30th October 2007

Jose Manuel Conceicao Pacheco

The first time he had contact with the McCann's was on 5th May at about 19.00. This was a personal contact with them in the Ocean Club at their apartment, but not the apartment Madeleine disappeared from. They were accompanied by members of the holiday group.

This was an important meeting for the McCann's and which had not been possible to the fact that they were busy. He knows that on the fateful night the McCann's requested the presence of a priest, but he was only informed the following morning.

On the 5th, the theme they talked about was the disappearance and he gave all possible spiritual comfort and they prayed together. They also agreed that the couple would go to the church the following day to attend a mass.

He also prayed with the McCann's on the 6th and 8th May in their apartment.

He gave them the key to the church on the 7th or 8th May upon the suggestion of John Geraghty, a resident of the parish, so that they could calmly go to the church without any media pressure. Someone from the church gave the key to John Geraghty, who then passed it on to the McCann's, with Father Pacheco's permission.

He does not remember the date upon which the key was returned.

Other contact with the McCann's took place at the end of mass when he would comfort them.

He would also meet with the McCann's after they returned from their trips and remembered they were animated when they returned from Morocco as they thought they would Madeleine there. He also comforted Kate when the news of a child buried in Arau broke, as she revealed great nervousness and anxiety, thinking that the child had died.

When questioned, he said he never heard their confessions, perhaps because they only spoke English.

He never talked to them alone.

He states that they showed great suffering to the loss of their daughter.

He adds that a parish bulletin was published giving spiritual, moral and human support to the couple and to other missing children.

ETA: bolding is mine

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by noddy100 on 24.11.13 17:07

Châtelaine wrote:
@currio wrote: [...]
In the early days, whether it was a forum myth or not...I do not know...but it was said that the original Priest that dealt with the MC's had said he had been conned [...].
***
A myth indeed [by UK tabloids], contradicted or at least not confirmed by Father Pacheco's own statement to the police:

Processo Vol XIII 3924 to 3926
Translation of Father Pachecos Statement to the PJ 30th October 2007

Jose Manuel Conceicao Pacheco

The first time he had contact with the McCann's was on 5th May at about 19.00. This was a personal contact with them in the Ocean Club at their apartment, but not the apartment Madeleine disappeared from. They were accompanied by members of the holiday group.

This was an important meeting for the McCann's and which had not been possible to the fact that they were busy. He knows that on the fateful night the McCann's requested the presence of a priest, but he was only informed the following morning.

On the 5th, the theme they talked about was the disappearance and he gave all possible spiritual comfort and they prayed together. They also agreed that the couple would go to the church the following day to attend a mass.

He also prayed with the McCann's on the 6th and 8th May in their apartment.

He gave them the key to the church on the 7th or 8th May upon the suggestion of John Geraghty, a resident of the parish, so that they could calmly go to the church without any media pressure. Someone from the church gave the key to John Geraghty, who then passed it on to the McCann's, with Father Pacheco's permission.

He does not remember the date upon which the key was returned.

Other contact with the McCann's took place at the end of mass when he would comfort them.

He would also meet with the McCann's after they returned from their trips and remembered they were animated when they returned from Morocco as they thought they would Madeleine there. He also comforted Kate when the news of a child buried in Arau broke, as she revealed great nervousness and anxiety, thinking that the child had died.

When questioned, he said he never heard their confessions, perhaps because they only spoke English.

He never talked to them alone.

He states that they showed great suffering to the loss of their daughter.

He adds that a parish bulletin was published giving spiritual, moral and human support to the couple and to other missing children.

ETA: bolding is mine
What confessions?

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by ultimaThule on 24.11.13 17:12

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/british-priest-staged-everything.html

Father Pacheco is the one wearing that popular piece of apparel known in the trade as a 'pizza hat'.

Is there any priest that's not got sticky fingers of some kind or another?  Rolling Eyes

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Guest on 24.11.13 17:19

@noddy100 wrote:
Châtelaine wrote: [...]
Processo Vol XIII 3924 to 3926
Translation of Father Pachecos Statement to the PJ 30th October 2007

Jose Manuel Conceicao Pacheco

[...]

When questioned, he said he never heard their confessions, perhaps because they only spoke English.

[...]
What confessions?
***
He says there were NONE, in contradiction to widespread rumours at the time, that he DID hear their confession and therefore, bound to RC secrecy, felt destroyed and resentful ...

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by StarsOnYou on 24.11.13 22:38

Hi, has anyone found a link for this full CMTV reconstruction, 17th November? All I've got so far is a snippet vid and a presentation. (+ some of the follow on)

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by ultimaThule on 24.11.13 22:43

@StarsOnYou wrote:Hi, has anyone found a link for this full CMTV reconstruction, 17th November? All I've got so far is a snippet vid and a presentation. (+ some of the follow on)
Until someone posts both programmes on youtube, hopefully with English subtitles or text translation, what's on Joana's blog is all that's available at the moment. 

Nevertheless, it's more than enough to see the case has been blown wide open and the McCanns' bubble has been well and truly burst.

It should also be borne in mind that these programmes would have run the gamut of libel and criminal law experts before they were aired. 

It's to be hoped Rothley Towers' satellite dish has been in full working order for the last 10 days or so big grin

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by StarsOnYou on 24.11.13 22:53

@ultimaThule wrote:
@StarsOnYou wrote:Hi, has anyone found a link for this full CMTV reconstruction, 17th November? All I've got so far is a snippet vid and a presentation. (+ some of the follow on)
Until someone posts both programmes on youtube, hopefully with English subtitles or text translation, what's on Joana's blog is all that's available at the moment. 

Nevertheless, it's more than enough to see the case has been blown wide open and the McCanns' bubble has been well and truly burst.

It should also be borne in mind that these programmes would have run the gamut of libel and criminal law experts before they were aired. 

It's to be hoped Rothley Towers' satellite dish has been in full working order for the last 10 days or so big grin
Lol. Strange that no one in Portugal or elsewhere has shared this... I was expecting it to be on CMTV itself so I used Portuguese words to search there but there is next to nothing. Puzzlement.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Monty Heck on 25.11.13 10:36

Châtelaine wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@tigger wrote:He arrived on the 6th. Iirc. The family came later.
In which case it would seem Father Hubbard is using the royal 'we' to describe the occasion when he came into K&G's presence as I doubt he wasted any time in seeking an audience with the couple.
***
As I remember it, the whole family, Hubbard, his wife and their 3 kids [and their cat]  arrived the weekend after Madeleine's disappearance. I do remember, though, too that I have read somewhere, long time ago, that the Reverend Haynes Q. Hubbard made a visit to the Algarve alone, possibly a "scouting" enterprise to see if he would want to accept his appointment to PdL? I keep searching for that info ....
That is correct.  It seems to be normal procedure withing the CofE for potential priests to visit the parish, meet people, view the living accommodation- even hold some service/s before deciding whether to take up the post offered.  I can't produce a link as confirmation as I heard about this anecdotally, long before the Hubbards' eventual arrival in PDL. 

For those who have mentioned the existence of a chapel in the grounds of the chaplaincy house, I haven't been inside but from the outside it's a fairly standard looking, fairly modern villa situated on quite a small plot.  It has no "grounds" to speak of but a fairly small garden which had a children's swing and the only pool was an inflatable, the type small children would use for paddling/playing.  Again, I'm not able to prove either way whether such a chapel exists but it seems unlikely from what I was able to observe.  With 3 children of his own in the house, HH would have been lucky to find room for a study, far less the luxury of a private chapel, IMO.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by sallypelt on 25.11.13 10:54

Opps, how did that happen?  Wrong thread.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Harriet94 on 26.11.13 20:33

Hi all, just been reading the forum and catching up and saw the posts about the bible passages and the Rev Hubbard. I remembered reading a statement in the case files from someone who said they had given Kate their bible to read that had marked passages in it. I thought it was a OC guest, but have just checked the files and it was  a Peter Neal Patterson, a solicitor. His Rog interview states he is a member of the Corporation for Excercise and Salvation ( I think this may be the Salvation Army from a google search). He states he gave his wifes' bible to Kate to offer comfort and the marked passages were for his wife. They sadly had fertility problems. His wife Bridget is a GP and became close friends with Kate in Mid 2002, it appears as a result of their commmon problem in conceiving a child. The Pattersons gave birth to a son about 4 months after Madeleine was born. Neal Patterson recommended that Kate read Psalms X and XX. Mr Patterson states in his Rog that initially he tried to protect his son from hearing about Madeleine. He and his wife decided to fly to Portugal on 8th May to offer help and support. Sorry if this has already been posted,but I don't remember reading about this recently.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Guest on 26.11.13 20:54

Neither did I. But what struck me, was the obvious uninterested next-to-none existing encounters between Kate and one of her "best" friends, who flew all the way to PT to see her and help her ...

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Harriet94 on 26.11.13 21:19

Hi Chatelaine,  I am wondering if there is a special bond between them, possibly connected with IVF in some way. It can't be easy to just to go to Portugal at short notice when you have 2 young children to care for.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Guest on 26.11.13 21:27

Harriet, IF there's a special bond, how can you accept your "friend" staying in Lagos and searching PdL, but hardly ever meeting?

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Harriet94 on 26.11.13 21:57

I get what you mean now Chatelaine. Were the Pattersons' mentioned in Kates Book?  Need to sign off now , but will catch up again in the next few days. Good night.

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