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CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by aquila on 23.11.13 8:58

@tigger wrote:@aquila.    Do you still have a link  to that radio interview

Is is there he used the phrase ...when I first came into the presence of Kate and Gerry.... 

I wish someone would have a look  in Crockfords, available in most libraries. 

His arrival was serendipidous to say the least. I see him more as a chaplain and that would open up 'contacts'  with Whitehall.
Here it is tigger

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/audio/2008/apr/18/adddley.mccann

(mp3 interview)

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Romario on 23.11.13 9:42

Châtelaine wrote:
@ChillyHeat wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann



Earlier that day there had been tennis lessons for the children, with some of the parents watching proudly as their girls ran across the court chasing tennis balls. They took photos. Madeleine must have been there, but I couldn't distinguish her from the others. They all looked the same - all blonde, all pink and pretty.

***
That's a phrase that's been engraved in my mind. I am convinced that BOD didn't write that [like that] for "nothing", like there are many other things in her Guardian articles that raise eyebrows ...

Sorry, something went wrong here and my text landed in yours ... Châtelaine



Bridget O'Donnell
Chatelaine, can you expand a little on what you mean? Also what is there to know about BOD and Jez? Anything suspicious?

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Guest on 23.11.13 10:53

Well, there’s dispute about the “Tennis photo”: who took it, when was it taken and is it really Madeleine?

Then there’s still confusion as to when Madeleine was seen the last time and there are subsequent theories, she vanished earlier than May 3.

It is always interesting to look at what there is, but also [sometimes more interesting] what there is NOT.

“Earlier that day there had been tennis lessons for the children, with some of the parents watching proudly as their girls ran across the court chasing tennis balls. They took photos. Madeleine must have been there, but I couldn't distinguish her from the others. They all looked the same - all blonde, all pink and pretty.”

Earlier that day there had been tennis lessons for the children”
BOD thus places the tennis lessons on Thursday, May 3. So the picture would have to be taken that day too.
However, in her bewk, Kate McCann places this on May 1 and describes how she ran back to the apartment to get her camera and take this “famous” picture.
Rachel Oldfield said, though, that it was Jane Tanner, who took the picture.

“with some of the parents watching proudly as their girls ran across the court chasing tennis balls.”
BOD knows the McCanns, but doesn’t mention either of them is there.

They took photos
If she wasn't there May 3, Kate cannot have taken the photo.

“Madeleine must have been there”
But obviously BOD cannot or doesn’t want to confirm that, because

“They all looked the same” ...
So, in a nutshell, BOD seems to confirm Madeleine’s presence in PdL on May 3, but she actually doesn’t. Au contraire, she sows delicate doubt on her presence on that day and thus the ability of her mother to have taken that Picture. She firmly places the tennis lessons on that day, though, and thus undermines Kate’s version of events in May 1 ...

There are many more sequences in BOD’s Guardian article, which IMO only on the surface looks like having been written solely to “defend & protect” her partner JW and show her support and compassion for the McCs.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by deafoldbat on 23.11.13 11:47

Bridget O'Donnell wrote a book after Madeleine disappeared - read about it on her web page:
http://bridget-odonnell.com/

I have it on my Kindle but haven't had time to read it yet.

Here is a review of it:

http://sabotagetimes.com/people/the-victorian-brothel-frequented-by-powerful-old-men/

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Daisy on 23.11.13 11:53

Châtelaine wrote:
“Earlier that day there had been tennis lessons for the children, with some of the parents watching proudly as their girls ran across the court chasing tennis balls. They took photos. Madeleine must have been there, but I couldn't distinguish her from the others. They all looked the same - all blonde, all pink and pretty.”

And don't forget, there were no less than TEN! blonde 3 yr old girls all blonde. all pretty in pink.

BOD: "We settled in over the following days. There was a warm camaraderie among the parents, a shared happy weariness and deadpan banter. Our children made friends in the kiddie club and at the drop-off, we would joke about the fact that there were 10 blonde three-year-old girls in the group. They were bound to boss around the two boys."

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Romario on 23.11.13 11:56

Châtelaine wrote:Well, there’s dispute about the “Tennis photo”: who took it, when was it taken and is it really Madeleine?

Then there’s still confusion as to when Madeleine was seen the last time and there are subsequent theories, she vanished earlier than May 3.

It is always interesting to look at what there is, but also [sometimes more interesting] what there is NOT.

“Earlier that day there had been tennis lessons for the children, with some of the parents watching proudly as their girls ran across the court chasing tennis balls. They took photos. Madeleine must have been there, but I couldn't distinguish her from the others. They all looked the same - all blonde, all pink and pretty.”

Earlier that day there had been tennis lessons for the children”
BOD thus places the tennis lessons on Thursday, May 3. So the picture would have to be taken that day too.
However, in her bewk, Kate McCann places this on May 1 and describes how she ran back to the apartment to get her camera and take this “famous” picture.
Rachel Oldfield said, though, that it was Jane Tanner, who took the picture.

“with some of the parents watching proudly as their girls ran across the court chasing tennis balls.”
BOD knows the McCanns, but doesn’t mention either of them is there.

They took photos
If she wasn't there May 3, Kate cannot have taken the photo.

“Madeleine must have been there”
But obviously BOD cannot or doesn’t want to confirm that, because

“They all looked the same” ...
So, in a nutshell, BOD seems to confirm Madeleine’s presence in PdL on May 3, but she actually doesn’t. Au contraire, she sows delicate doubt on her presence on that day and thus the ability of her mother to have taken that Picture. She firmly places the tennis lessons on that day, though, and thus undermines Kate’s version of events in May 1 ...

There are many more sequences in BOD’s Guardian article, which IMO only on the surface looks like having been written solely to “defend & protect” her partner JW and show her support and compassion for the McCs.
Thanks for the explanation Chatelaine. I had always thought Jez was perfectly innocent seeing how he helped mess up the Tannerman sighting.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Lance De Boils on 23.11.13 13:17

Re the thread title: has anyone uploaded this reconstruction to the internet anywhere? (With or without subtitles, but preferably with!)

I've had a quick scan of the thread, but must have missed the link, if there is one.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by chillyheat on 23.11.13 13:25

@Romario wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:Well, there’s dispute about the “Tennis photo”: who took it, when was it taken and is it really Madeleine?

Then there’s still confusion as to when Madeleine was seen the last time and there are subsequent theories, she vanished earlier than May 3.

It is always interesting to look at what there is, but also [sometimes more interesting] what there is NOT.

“Earlier that day there had been tennis lessons for the children, with some of the parents watching proudly as their girls ran across the court chasing tennis balls. They took photos. Madeleine must have been there, but I couldn't distinguish her from the others. They all looked the same - all blonde, all pink and pretty.”

Earlier that day there had been tennis lessons for the children”
BOD thus places the tennis lessons on Thursday, May 3. So the picture would have to be taken that day too.
However, in her bewk, Kate McCann places this on May 1 and describes how she ran back to the apartment to get her camera and take this “famous” picture.
Rachel Oldfield said, though, that it was Jane Tanner, who took the picture.

“with some of the parents watching proudly as their girls ran across the court chasing tennis balls.”
BOD knows the McCanns, but doesn’t mention either of them is there.

They took photos
If she wasn't there May 3, Kate cannot have taken the photo.

“Madeleine must have been there”
But obviously BOD cannot or doesn’t want to confirm that, because

“They all looked the same” ...
So, in a nutshell, BOD seems to confirm Madeleine’s presence in PdL on May 3, but she actually doesn’t. Au contraire, she sows delicate doubt on her presence on that day and thus the ability of her mother to have taken that Picture. She firmly places the tennis lessons on that day, though, and thus undermines Kate’s version of events in May 1 ...

There are many more sequences in BOD’s Guardian article, which IMO only on the surface looks like having been written solely to “defend & protect” her partner JW and show her support and compassion for the McCs.
Thanks for the explanation Chatelaine. I had always thought Jez was perfectly innocent seeing how he helped mess up the Tannerman sighting.
I suppose yes, you can rock a pram.....But can you rock a buggy winkwink 
Theres a difference in that sort of transportation I presume....So was Jeremy pushing a pram or a buggy ?

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by ultimaThule on 23.11.13 14:35

@Lance De Boils wrote:Re the thread title: has anyone uploaded this reconstruction to the internet anywhere? (With or without subtitles, but preferably with!)

I've had a quick scan of the thread, but must have missed the link, if there is one.
Until someone uploads the programmes to youtube, highlights can be found here:

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/11/cmtv-maddie-case-special-and-rua-segura.html

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Lance De Boils on 23.11.13 14:42

Thank you.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by JackieL on 23.11.13 18:49

@tigger wrote:@aquila.    Do you still have a link  to that radio interview

Is is there he used the phrase ...when I first came into the presence of Kate and Gerry.... 

I wish someone would have a look  in Crockfords, available in most libraries. 

His arrival was serendipidous to say the least. I see him more as a chaplain and that would open up 'contacts'  with Whitehall.
"when I first came into the presence of Kate and Gerry....".....WTF???????wft wft wft

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by sofieellis on 23.11.13 19:00

Is it known whether or not Lilly was signed into creche on the Thursday?

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Guest on 23.11.13 19:28

@ Tigger: he'd been to PdL before settling in with family. I'm looking for something to document that.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by currio on 23.11.13 19:53

Anyone know what ever become of the original priest?

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by ultimaThule on 24.11.13 6:41

@currio wrote:Anyone know what ever become of the original priest?
Could he have been taken too, currio? big grin

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by ultimaThule on 24.11.13 7:23

@aquila wrote:
@tigger wrote:@aquila.    Do you still have a link  to that radio interview

Is is there he used the phrase ...when I first came into the presence of Kate and Gerry.... 

I wish someone would have a look  in Crockfords, available in most libraries. 

His arrival was serendipidous to say the least. I see him more as a chaplain and that would open up 'contacts'  with Whitehall.
Here it is tigger

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/audio/2008/apr/18/adddley.mccann

(mp3 interview)
Having listened to the broadcast, it appears Father Hubbard is somewhat taken (no pun intended) with the word 'presence' and first uses it when describing Madeleine's disappearance as "something so horrific happening literally in our own backyard".  I was under the impression it happened in GM's backyard, but what do I know? 

Happily, as the Rev goes on to explain, this horrific event took place "not in our presence" and it was only "when we had a chance to come into K&G's presence that we started to become affected by it".

In a voice which could induce a shark to close its eyes, the Rev then drones on about how Madeleine is his/the congregation's 'sister' and refers to K&G as being 'determined to look for their daughter', although he fails to explain why they didn't bother to look for her on the night she was taken and, some eight months later, doesn't give any clue as to when they're going to start leaving no stone unturned in their quest to find her.

Here's Haynes Q ministering to a penitent, although why he's wearing a robe more suited to a Ku Klux Klan member is anyone's guess - maybe he likes slipping into a frock now and again?:



How fortuitous that Mother Hubbard was fluent in Portuguese before the couple were posted to Luz.  Would that be due to the hand of the divine moving in mysterious ways or the work of the devil?

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by tigger on 24.11.13 7:42

Châtelaine wrote:@ Tigger: he'd been to PdL before settling in with family. I'm looking for something to document that.
He arrived on the 6th. Iirc. The family came later. 
They went back in 2012 to Canada. 

Just had a quick look at the 'Priests' topic.  Very interesting.  'Father'. Hubbard has several topics -- all worth a read.  

The timing is tight, but imo it's not impossible that the intention was to place this man in this location. 
As it seems that the protection enjoyed by TM was a side effect of the main reason for government interference,  the appointment could have had a primary tactical purpose. 
Gosh, I will be standing for Little Wittering in the Wold pretty soon - if Clarrie can do it..

That use of 'Father' was a lovely bit of spin. 

The Vatican intelligence service  we know exists, might there be an Anglican one?  Religion and politics being hard to separate in both cases. Imo of course.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by ultimaThule on 24.11.13 8:39

The Anglican church was Cranmer's 'middle way', the bridge between more extreme forms of protestantism and catholicsm.   It contains the high church and anglo-catholic movements which practise marian devotions, and in recent times has seen the growth of charismatic worship - to my mind this latter form of worship has much in common with some branches of evangelism, except it's not 'missionary' in broadcasting its message.     

As such, it's reasonable to suppose elite, or should that be elect?, worshippers are on considerably more than nodding terms with the holy see, and vice versa.

On the subject of the elect, should S Dorrell give up his seat a blue rinse may see you standing for Charnwood, tigger - and with considerably greater prospect of becoming MP for the leafy Leicestershire constituency which contains the village of Rothley than the well-known dog whisperer has in London-on-Sea lol4

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by ultimaThule on 24.11.13 8:54

@tigger wrote:He arrived on the 6th. Iirc. The family came later.
In which case it would seem Father Hubbard is using the royal 'we' to describe the occasion when he came into K&G's presence as I doubt he wasted any time in seeking an audience with the couple.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Guest on 24.11.13 10:46

@ultimaThule wrote:
@tigger wrote:He arrived on the 6th. Iirc. The family came later.
In which case it would seem Father Hubbard is using the royal 'we' to describe the occasion when he came into K&G's presence as I doubt he wasted any time in seeking an audience with the couple.
***
As I remember it, the whole family, Hubbard, his wife and their 3 kids [and their cat]  arrived the weekend after Madeleine's disappearance. I do remember, though, too that I have read somewhere, long time ago, that the Reverend Haynes Q. Hubbard made a visit to the Algarve alone, possibly a "scouting" enterprise to see if he would want to accept his appointment to PdL? I keep searching for that info ....

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Mirage on 24.11.13 11:55

The photograph of KM "receiving" from an Anglican priest is notable.

Whilst I understood KM to have been comforted by the Hubbards it is a very profound move for any Roman Catholic to move across to High Anglican, particularly at a time of crisis.

 There is a pretend cosiness between the RC's and Anglo- Catholics. I have come across it from personal experience.

The Oxford Movement of the mid 19thC  came in on a wave of atavism. The C of E has thrown the baby out with the bathwater, went the cry. And they set about bringing back the paraphernalia of Catholicism. Statuary. Icons. Stations of the Cross. Vestments and altar cloths (denoting the Seasons and Sacraments of the church). The reserved Sacrament. Genuflection. Liturgy, Incense (Bells and Smells). Catechism. Naming it the Mass (as opposed to Eucharist). Making the sign of the cross. Fasting before communion. The Sanctus bell. Etc etc.  But the single most significant move was adopting the doctrine of Transubstantiation.

This has always caused ruffled feathers because the Roman Catholics adhere to the Apostolic Succession (laying on of hands). In other words, the direct line of popes from St Peter. As far as the RCs are concerned Transubstantiation, (the true body of Christ given through bread and wine) comes from Christ, via Peter and down through the Popes, and out into the "True Church" via the priests. 

 The history of the C of E is complex and influenced not only by Henry VIII, but by successive monarchs and various Archbishops of Canterbury. A potted version here could not do it justice. But having, in my lifetime, travelled from High Anglican to Rome, I have a very specific insight into the unspoken resentments on either side. And when you have arrived in Rome, you are not necessarily free from a certain resentment that goes far beyond not being cradle-Catholic.

In my town, our Anglican Church was seen to be on a par with St Margaret's Westminster in the 1960's. Very high! In fact, there was an ecumenical procession through the town following the Second Vatican Council, where the High Anglicans and RC church conjoined for a one-off occasion. On the surface, all very ecumenical. But I know from a Catholic friend (I was cradle Anglican!!!) that it didn't go down too well with the rank and file RC congregation, particularly when many in the town mistook the Anglicans for the RC's because of the superior amounts of incense, servers, candles and vestments.

So, when I look at that picture of KM receiving her Communion from the Anglican, it raises many questions in my mind. A Catholic's first instinct is to seek shelter in "The Faith" at a time of crisis. To travel across the divide I describe above is not for the faint-hearted. It throws up many issues of insecurity, unfamiliarity and a lingering sense of betrayal. Hardly the extra burden you need to encumber yourself with when your child has disappeared and quite possibly dead. Those are the times that a Catholic will crave their cradle faith.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by mysterion on 24.11.13 12:26

Would it be possible for a catholic not to be aware of the "not in communion" status? I have read somewhere that KM was not a devout or church going catholic.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by PeterMac on 24.11.13 12:38

@mysterion wrote:Would it be possible for a catholic not to be aware of the "not in communion" status ?
NO.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Mirage on 24.11.13 12:51

@mysterion wrote:Would it be possible for a catholic not to be aware of the "not in communion" status? I have read somewhere that KM was not a devout or church going catholic.
Although I get the impression that KM was not a regular communicant. I think, as a cradle Catholic she would certainly be aware of all other denominations not being "The True Faith" and therefore not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

I have seen a photo of her as a young girl of about eight or nine in her First Communion dress with another first communicant. The catechism she would have received would have left her in no doubt about the supremacy of the RC Church over all other branches of the faith through the direct succession to Peter, Christ's Vicar on earth, regarded as the first pope. This is so, even today in catechising. In a Catholic school of the 70s, which she attended, certainly at secondary stage, the ethos alone would have been a constant reminder to her, with photographs of Christ's Vicar on earth all around. 

It should not be underestimated either that the Liverpool Catholic heritage has added potency from the large Irish  influence -  a rich part of the fabric of that city's heritage.

Finally, I am sure that a well-educated woman would have difficulty in NOT being aware of the "not in communion" status.

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Re: CMTV reconstitutes the Maddie case

Post by Ashwarya on 24.11.13 12:59

@PeterMac wrote:
@mysterion wrote:Would it be possible for a catholic not to be aware of the "not in communion" status ?
NO.
Tony Blair, another devout Catholic who didn't toe Pope Benedict's line that "the truth is not negotiable", regularly did this the other way round.  He had to be rebuked by the Archbishop of Westminster of the time, Cardinal Basil Hume, for receiving in the Catholic cathedral while still an Anglican.  It is very bad form to do this, as well as being a massive sin for a Catholic.

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