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Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Copodenieve on 17.11.13 17:37

@PeterMac wrote:
@Newintown wrote:
"I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.
Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement."

(These 2 paragraphs appear just before the Gaspar statements start)
FIONA PAYNE is an anaesthetist.
As was KATE
Later that evening the twins failed to wake despite all the commotion, and remained comatose for 10 hours.

Small wonder then that Fiona's visit to the apartment has been suppressed.
If they did in fact do this, and I believe they did, surely they must have known at this stage they could count on some very influential people to cover for them. I mean, what kind of average run of the mill people would risk being caught out covering up a death and staging an abduction in favour of telling the truth and having peace of mind? I know they risked their careers and maybe even a sentence for child neglect. I don´t know much about law, so I don´t know if they would have had their children taken away from them too. But even so...I just can´t get my head around an average person doing what they did. I suppose it is very difficult for any decent person to understand why they have behaved in the way they have, but I just feel that they must have known that they could count on some excellent back up.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by ultimaThule on 17.11.13 17:53

@Miss Trunchbull wrote:I'm struggling a bit with this 'pre-meditated' scenario. Particularly when it involves the possible involvement, and certainly the absolute secrecy of numerous friends.

If you're a doctor - with proper clinical experience, and not a trainee - you will know how to kill someone. I can't remember all the stuff I've read over the years, but isn't an injection of insulin pretty much guaranteed to finish you off? Isn't that how Harold Shipman got away with murder over many years?

So, back to PdeLuz, why would you bother with this elaborate pantomime (shutters open/closed, door locked/unlocked etc.) and numerous confidantes ( who have everything to lose if the plan is ever unmasked), when a simple injection would do? 

On the other hand, I can see how over-sedation, unexpected death and a hurried disposal might have happened - but definately without the help of outsiders.
As many relatives of unfortunate patients who've been admitted to NHS hospitals in August can verify, don't underestimate the ability of trainee doctors to kill people, Miss Trunchbull winkwink

Had it not been for the pantomime, complete with a game of musical chairs that had not been observed on any of the previous nights the group ate and drank at the Tapas Bar, suspicion would have immediately fallen on the child's parents.  

The fact that the UK Ambassador to Portugal was on the case before the police arrived suggests a degree of premeditation which contradicts any notion of hurried disposal of a body.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by diatribe on 17.11.13 18:47

@ultimaThule wrote:
@diatribe wrote:-snip-

With regards to our intrepid inspector's impersonation of Paul Daniels pulling a british holiday maker out of the hat to corroborate Jane Tanner's somewhat less than divine vision. Well folks, I've gotta tell yer, he must be some kind of saint 'cos he's the only person since the commencement of this circus freak show who hasn't tried to cash in on the notoriety of the McCanns by selling their story to the tabloids. Why these hyenas are prepared to pay for Kate to tell them what colour knickers she has laid out for her daughter to wear upon return, surely they'd be interested in a story involving a witness of paramount importance suddenly materialising after all these yrs. even if it was only to ask him how he had coped with living as a tibetan monk with no means of communications for the past 6 yrs.big grin
From this interview www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIvFkXkVn1I it's clear GM expected his past to be dredged up by the press but, as many others have remarked on this forum and elsewhere, it's as if the McCanns and their 7 friends came into being fully formed with no past worthy of comment by the media. 

I would be most interested to read anything you have found to the contrary, even if it is solely related to the colour of knickers.   

I agree with your remark "this really is a very simple case", albeit that it remains to be seen whether it is a simple case of murder or manslaughter
Sorry, Ultima, I don't see the significance of your reply, I was referring to Inspector Deadwoods latest acquisition, perhaps more affectionately known as the british holiday maker substantiating Jane Tanner's sighting, as opposed to Gerry McCann.

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Why the McCanns and Tapas7 were Relaxed at dinner on 3 May

Post by RIPM on 17.11.13 18:56

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Miss Trunchbull wrote:I'm struggling a bit with this 'pre-meditated' scenario. Particularly when it involves the possible involvement, and certainly the absolute secrecy of numerous friends.

If you're a doctor - with proper clinical experience, and not a trainee - you will know how to kill someone. I can't remember all the stuff I've read over the years, but isn't an injection of insulin pretty much guaranteed to finish you off? Isn't that how Harold Shipman got away with murder over many years?

So, back to PdeLuz, why would you bother with this elaborate pantomime (shutters open/closed, door locked/unlocked etc.) and numerous confidantes ( who have everything to lose if the plan is ever unmasked), when a simple injection would do? 

On the other hand, I can see how over-sedation, unexpected death and a hurried disposal might have happened - but definately without the help of outsiders.
As many relatives of unfortunate patients who've been admitted to NHS hospitals in August can verify, don't underestimate the ability of trainee doctors to kill people, Miss Trunchbull winkwink

Had it not been for the pantomime, complete with a game of musical chairs that had not been observed on any of the previous nights the group ate and drank at the Tapas Bar, suspicion would have immediately fallen on the child's parents.  

The fact that the UK Ambassador to Portugal was on the case before the police arrived suggests a degree of premeditation which contradicts any notion of hurried disposal of a body.
Could you please provide a reference to substantiate your statement, the UK Embassador was on the case before 23.00, when the GNR police arrived.

The alternative point of view of the events of the night of the 3rd May is, it confirms it was done on the spur of the moment shortly before the BBC and the politicians got involved and confirms the notion of a hurried hiding of the body, not a disposal.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by diatribe on 17.11.13 18:58

Ultima

''Secondly, the McCanns and the Tapas 7 are not 'most people'. They were/are a group of mainly professionals, 6 being at time doctors of medicine of 12+ years standing, who are more capable than most of responding in a cool, calm, and logical, manner to emergencies/fraught situations.''





Maybe so, but I wouldn't think they'd experienced much in the way of arranging crime scenes and disposing of dead bodies without first acquiring death certificates. Maybe if they had, they wouldn't have advised the McCanns to rely on the story of an abductor exiting by the shuttered widow whilst only leaving Kate's fingerprints on the aforementioned.

Personally, I wouldn't want to rely on this bunch of clowns covering up a crime scene for me, unless of course I wished to join one of their former investigators in HMP Belmarsh.big grin

Memo to myself,  Next time I wish to make an insurance claim for a spurious burglary, I'll get my GP to pop round to advise me on how to make the break in look genuine.big grin

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Praiaaa on 17.11.13 19:32

@Miss Trunchbull wrote:I'm struggling a bit with this 'pre-meditated' scenario. Particularly when it involves the possible involvement, and certainly the absolute secrecy of numerous friends.

If you're a doctor - with proper clinical experience, and not a trainee - you will know how to kill someone. I can't remember all the stuff I've read over the years, but isn't an injection of insulin pretty much guaranteed to finish you off? Isn't that how Harold Shipman got away with murder over many years?

So, back to PdeLuz, why would you bother with this elaborate pantomime (shutters open/closed, door locked/unlocked etc.) and numerous confidantes ( who have everything to lose if the plan is ever unmasked), when a simple injection would do? 

On the other hand, I can see how over-sedation, unexpected death and a hurried disposal might have happened - but definately without the help of outsiders.
Completely agree! If it had been a 'high level cover-up, or premeditated, we would never have heard of it. Would have been easy to disappear Maddie, tell MW they were staying on , not travelling back, quietly dispose of Maddie, travel back to UK without her etc. This whole circus only 'makes sense' if it was an unexpected accident.IMO.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by diatribe on 17.11.13 20:20

Far from the McCanns being helped by their cool, calm and collected friends, in my opinion they were hindered by their conflicting statements, and criminal naivety. That's why  no-one believes them now, hence the off with their heads cries from the gallery.

Had I been there in an advisory capacity, I would have told Kate to shut the window and just leave the sliding door open thereby giving the impression that her daughter had woken up, opened the door and wandered off into the night where she had been taken by some perverted soul, never to be heard of again. No crime scene for the police to scrutinise, no impossible time lines to adhere to etc. etc. Even I may have bought into that scenario.

I don't wish to appear rude to any of you fine contributors who have undoubtably devoted a great deal of your personal time to attaining justice for Madeleine, but anyone who thinks that the McCanns friends are machiavellian type characters who hold the key to the McCann's ultimate arrest and conviction must also still believe in Father Yultide.

The only way the portugese authorities are going to get enough prima facia evidence to issue an extradition warrant for the arrest of the McCanns is to find the body and even then that may not be enough, depending on whether decomposition has rendered determining the cause of death impossible. It would of course be helpful if the proximity of the body was close to the McCann's apartment. The British police are toothless as far as the McCanns and their friends are concerned, they can't even approach them without going through their lawyers, let alone arrest them and subject them to IUC's(Interview Under cautions), because the crime is not within their jurisdiction.

The portugese police are rendered even more toothless because the McCanns and their friends are in the UK, that's why they shelved the case back in 2008. Even if they managed to find some prima facia evidence against the McCanns to support an extradition warrant, they still wouldn't be able to subpeona their friends to give evidence against them because of the jurisdiction issue. They could ask them to give evidence which would be declined and that's about it. The McCanns would never give evidence so the status quo is likely to remain with them continuing to adopt the stance of 'There's no evidence', 'Prove it' Even that obnoxious and pretentious ignorami, Clarence Mitchell, knows this when he states, Its not our job to prove our innocence, its the police job to prove us guilty.(These may not be his exact words, but they mean the same)

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by canada12 on 17.11.13 20:32

Perhaps we're getting distracted by our belief that the only thing K & G may be arrested for is manslaughter or accidental death. Is there anything else that is a serious crime (in either the UK or Portugal) that they could be accused of and successfully prosecuted for? Other than child neglect?

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by diatribe on 17.11.13 20:42

@canada12 wrote:Perhaps we're getting distracted by our belief that the only thing K & G may be arrested for is manslaughter or accidental death. Is there anything else that is a serious crime (in either the UK or Portugal) that they could be accused of and successfully prosecuted for? Other than child neglect?
They can't be arrested  and charged with anything in the UK because the crime occurred on foreign soil.

I suppose they could be charged with hiring Clarence Mitchell, I can't think of a more heinous crime than that.  big grin

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by diatribe on 17.11.13 21:16

@Praiaaa wrote:
.
 Would have been easy to disappear Maddie, tell MW they were staying on , not travelling back, quietly dispose of Maddie, travel back to UK without her etc. .
Absolutely, Praiaaa and when Grandad and Grandma ask 'Where's Maddie'' ''Oh, she jus' got pissed off with the inclement weather and Big Brother surveillance state of the Peoples' Republik of Britain and rode off into the sunset with a guy she met at the Creche.''  big grin big grin

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by ultimaThule on 18.11.13 0:28

@diatribe wrote:
@canada12 wrote:Perhaps we're getting distracted by our belief that the only thing K & G may be arrested for is manslaughter or accidental death. Is there anything else that is a serious crime (in either the UK or Portugal) that they could be accused of and successfully prosecuted for? Other than child neglect?
They can't be arrested  and charged with anything in the UK because the crime occurred on foreign soil.

I suppose they could be charged with hiring Clarence Mitchell, I can't think of a more heinous crime than that.  big grin
You are misinformed about the law of the UK and that of England/Wales, diatribe.

IMO, anyone who can't think of a more heinous crime than hiring Clarence Mitchell is ill-equipped to give consideration to the possible suffering of a little girl who, just days short of her 4th birthday, in all probability lost her life as a direct consequence of the actions of her parents.

@diatribe wrote:    "Praiaaa wrote:
     Would have been easy to disappear Maddie, tell MW they were staying on , not travelling back, quietly dispose         of Maddie, travel back to UK without her etc. .

Absolutely, Praiaaa and when Grandad and Grandma ask 'Where's Maddie'' ''Oh, she jus' got pissed off with the inclement weather and Big Brother surveillance state of the Peoples' Republik of Britain and rode off into the sunset with a guy she met at the Creche.''  big grin big grin
It may be that you are attempting to be humorous, but I find your above comment inappropriate and disturbingly similar to GM referring to 'the situation Madeleine finds herself in' as if his 3 year old daughter was the architect of her own misfortune.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by diatribe on 18.11.13 0:42

@ultimaThule wrote:
@diatribe wrote:
@canada12 wrote:Perhaps we're getting distracted by our belief that the only thing K & G may be arrested for is manslaughter or accidental death. Is there anything else that is a serious crime (in either the UK or Portugal) that they could be accused of and successfully prosecuted for? Other than child neglect?
They can't be arrested  and charged with anything in the UK because the crime occurred on foreign soil.

I suppose they could be charged with hiring Clarence Mitchell, I can't think of a more heinous crime than that.  big grin
You are misinformed about the law of the UK and that of England/Wales, diatribe.

IMO, anyone who can't think of a more heinous crime than hiring Clarence Mitchell is ill-equipped to give consideration to the possible suffering of a little girl who, just days short of her 4th birthday, in all probability lost her life as a direct consequence of the actions of her parents.

@diatribe wrote:    "Praiaaa wrote:
     Would have been easy to disappear Maddie, tell MW they were staying on , not travelling back, quietly dispose         of Maddie, travel back to UK without her etc. .

Absolutely, Praiaaa and when Grandad and Grandma ask 'Where's Maddie'' ''Oh, she jus' got pissed off with the inclement weather and Big Brother surveillance state of the Peoples' Republik of Britain and rode off into the sunset with a guy she met at the Creche.''  big grin big grin
It may be that you are attempting to be humorous, but I find your above comment inappropriate and disturbingly similar to GM referring to 'the situation Madeleine finds herself in' as if his 3 year old daughter was the architect of her own misfortune.
I think some of my remarks are flying further over your head than one of them thar goddamed yankee stealth bombers.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 18.11.13 8:18

@diatribe wrote:
@canada12 wrote:Perhaps we're getting distracted by our belief that the only thing K & G may be arrested for is manslaughter or accidental death. Is there anything else that is a serious crime (in either the UK or Portugal) that they could be accused of and successfully prosecuted for? Other than child neglect?
They can't be arrested  and charged with anything in the UK because the crime occurred on foreign soil.

I suppose they could be charged with hiring Clarence Mitchell, I can't think of a more heinous crime than that.  big grin
Diatribe can I refer you to the CPS Prosecution Policy and Guidance, Jurisdiction, Legal Guidance, Resolving jurisdictional conflicts:
Resolving jurisdictional conflicts
Where the offence occurred on a single territory
Generally, an offence will only be triable in the jurisdiction in which the offence takes place, unless there is a specific provision to ground jurisdiction, for instance where specific statutes enable the UK to exercise extra-territorial jurisdiction:

  • sexual offences against children (section 72 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003) A new section 72 was substituted by the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 which came into effect from 14 July 2008 onwards. It is important to ensure that any prosecution is brought under the provision in force at the time the alleged conduct occured as the terms of the substantive provisions and details of the offences they cover are not identical;
  • murder and manslaughter (subsection 9 and 10 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861)
  • fraud (the 2006 Act imposes extra territorial jurisdiction in respect od offences in subsection. 1, 6, 7, 9 and 11 of the Fraud Act 2006) and dishonesty (Criminal Justice Act 1993 Part 1 still applies to the remaining unrepealed sections of the Theft Act 1968);
  • terrorism (subsection 59, 62-63 of the Terrorism Act 2000 and section 17 of the Terrorism Act 2006);
  • bribery (The Bribery Act 2010 repeals the common law and the statutory offences of corruption for offences committed wholly on or after 1 July 2011. For those offences the Bribery Act imposes extra-territorial jurisdiction. Section 109 of the Anti-Terrorism and Security Act 2001 still applies to provide extre-territorial jurisdiction in respect of offences committed wholly or partially before 1 July 2011.
For a list of particular offences with an extra-territorial reach see Archbold .

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Why the McCanns and Tapas7 were Relaxed at dinner on 3 May

Post by RIPM on 18.11.13 8:20

@RIPM wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@Miss Trunchbull wrote:I'm struggling a bit with this 'pre-meditated' scenario. Particularly when it involves the possible involvement, and certainly the absolute secrecy of numerous friends.

If you're a doctor - with proper clinical experience, and not a trainee - you will know how to kill someone. I can't remember all the stuff I've read over the years, but isn't an injection of insulin pretty much guaranteed to finish you off? Isn't that how Harold Shipman got away with murder over many years?

So, back to PdeLuz, why would you bother with this elaborate pantomime (shutters open/closed, door locked/unlocked etc.) and numerous confidantes ( who have everything to lose if the plan is ever unmasked), when a simple injection would do? 

On the other hand, I can see how over-sedation, unexpected death and a hurried disposal might have happened - but definately without the help of outsiders.
As many relatives of unfortunate patients who've been admitted to NHS hospitals in August can verify, don't underestimate the ability of trainee doctors to kill people, Miss Trunchbull winkwink

Had it not been for the pantomime, complete with a game of musical chairs that had not been observed on any of the previous nights the group ate and drank at the Tapas Bar, suspicion would have immediately fallen on the child's parents.  

The fact that the UK Ambassador to Portugal was on the case before the police arrived suggests a degree of premeditation which contradicts any notion of hurried disposal of a body.
Could you please provide a reference to substantiate your statement, the UK Embassador was on the case before 23.00, when the GNR police arrived.

The alternative point of view of the events of the night of the 3rd May is, it confirms it was done on the spur of the moment shortly before the BBC and the politicians got involved and confirms the notion of a hurried hiding of the body, not a disposal.
Are we seeing classic distraction techniques here?

 UT you state a FACT expecting people to accept it without question and when you cannot you try and divert attention by accusing other posters of inappropriate remarks.

 Quoting unsubstantiated facts is how this farce has continued for six and half years.
  If you have evidence provide it.  Personal opinion is one thing, stating things as a FACT, is quite another.  It could mislead some readers and surely no one would want that.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Curioser on 18.11.13 12:59

Yup. Welcome to my world yes

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Curioser on 18.11.13 13:17

dantezebu wrote:
@Rufus T wrote:
dantezebu wrote:But looking at the whole of that letter:

(snip)

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to. 

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.


In it we have a third version of the DP and KM encounter with GM being there also.
As well as the FP forth version.

This letter is dated before the rogatory statements, and before they got their story straight.
And IMO thats all the events of the 3rd are, one big story.
I have heard this mentioned before about FP going to the McCann's apartment at 19:00, however it is not in her statement of 20/4/07 nor is it mentioned in her rog. Either she made another statement which has not been released or Ricard Paiva has misinterpreted her original statement. 
Will keep checking in case I have missed something.
"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."


It seems to be relating to some inquiries by the LPD maybe in October 2007 or before, prior to the Rog statements in 2008 and after the original interviews by the PJ.
These documents/questionaires do not appear to be in the public domain. 
This is really interesting. I looked through FPs statements and I can't find anything about her visiting the apartment either. In fact she states that she never went to the apartment until after the alarm was raised. By the time she does her rogatory her story is extremely similar to everyone else's, even down to the angelic tableau reported by DP: 
 'Because he was saying how angelic they all looked and he said to Kate when we all sat down at the Tapas table as well and he was sort of joking how they looked like perfect children, because they were all sat there, all clean in their pyjamas, having a story'.


If there is a fourth statement we are flying blind with missing information.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Curioser on 18.11.13 13:27

@notlongnow wrote:Would you get that drunk if it was pre-meditated?
I don't think so. They had approximately a bottle of wine each, 8 bottles for the group I think - the waiter said that was fairly normal.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Curioser on 18.11.13 13:29

@Miss Trunchbull wrote:I'm struggling a bit with this 'pre-meditated' scenario. Particularly when it involves the possible involvement, and certainly the absolute secrecy of numerous friends.

If you're a doctor - with proper clinical experience, and not a trainee - you will know how to kill someone. I can't remember all the stuff I've read over the years, but isn't an injection of insulin pretty much guaranteed to finish you off? Isn't that how Harold Shipman got away with murder over many years?

So, back to PdeLuz, why would you bother with this elaborate pantomime (shutters open/closed, door locked/unlocked etc.) and numerous confidantes ( who have everything to lose if the plan is ever unmasked), when a simple injection would do? 

On the other hand, I can see how over-sedation, unexpected death and a hurried disposal might have happened - but definately without the help of outsiders.
Yes, me too, but it's an unpopular opinion with some.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Curioser on 18.11.13 13:33

@Praiaaa wrote:
@Miss Trunchbull wrote:(snip)

On the other hand, I can see how over-sedation, unexpected death and a hurried disposal might have happened - but definately without the help of outsiders.
Completely agree! If it had been a 'high level cover-up, or premeditated, we would never have heard of it. Would have been easy to disappear Maddie, tell MW they were staying on , not travelling back, quietly dispose of Maddie, travel back to UK without her etc. This whole circus only 'makes sense' if it was an unexpected accident.IMO.
I think so too. The third, or at a stretch the day before, are the only way it all fits together imho.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by MarleneP on 18.11.13 13:38

@Curioser wrote:
@notlongnow wrote:Would you get that drunk if it was pre-meditated?
I don't think so. They had approximately a bottle of wine each, 8 bottles for the group I think - the waiter said that was fairly normal.
Thank you for your question, notlongnow. That is exactly what concerns me. When so much was drunk - a bottle of wine in 1-2 hours is plentiful! - I do not (longer) believe to a preplanned evening. But perhaps the Portuguese have exaggerated in their TV show. We have no precise information, everything flows;-)

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by aquila on 18.11.13 13:46

@Curioser wrote:Yup. Welcome to my world yes
The forum has been well and truly welcomed to your world Curioser. It has been informed of your own theory, your own opinions and your own denigration of the forum and its members.

Now before I get my coat and leave the building I'd like you to understand that what you think is only a microsopic contribution (if that) to finding out what happened to a three year old girl.

You see for me it's not about anything else but finding out what happened to a child. The life of a three year old little girl who vanished. It's not about ego or who can outwit a forum member and blast their theory into someone's face at 100wpm. It's about a life that is probably no more.

Whilst I congratulate you on your bullishness I am so saddened that your contribution to this forum has cheapened it in some ways. 'Welcome to my world' isn't something I'd choose to say about making a post on a forum about a missing little girl but it obviously suits your personality and your contribution to the forum to make that type of comment.

I am adding that many members of this forum have done so much work, so much research and so much reading.

I shall take my leave (and I hope Admin doesn't delete this post) by saying that I hope newcomers do not consider your behaviour as a temperature guage on conduct. You can wrap words up nicely but the message is still the same.

aquila

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Curioser on 18.11.13 14:09

I'm sorry you feel that way aquila. I didn't try to "blast (my) theory into someone's face at 100wpm." 
I just wanted one thread to stay on topic. If that cheapens the forum then I apologize. That was never my intention.

____________________
I have no direct knowledge of the case. I'm just reading the files. It's all speculation. Don't sue me!

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by aquila on 18.11.13 14:43

@Curioser wrote:I'm sorry you feel that way aquila. I didn't try to "blast (my) theory into someone's face at 100wpm." 
I just wanted one thread to stay on topic. If that cheapens the forum then I apologize. That was never my intention.
You know as well as I do that wasn't the meaning of my post.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Newintown on 18.11.13 15:04

@Curioser wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
@Rufus T wrote:
dantezebu wrote:But looking at the whole of that letter:

(snip)

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to. 

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.


In it we have a third version of the DP and KM encounter with GM being there also.
As well as the FP forth version.

This letter is dated before the rogatory statements, and before they got their story straight.
And IMO thats all the events of the 3rd are, one big story.
I have heard this mentioned before about FP going to the McCann's apartment at 19:00, however it is not in her statement of 20/4/07 nor is it mentioned in her rog. Either she made another statement which has not been released or Ricard Paiva has misinterpreted her original statement. 
Will keep checking in case I have missed something.
"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."


It seems to be relating to some inquiries by the LPD maybe in October 2007 or before, prior to the Rog statements in 2008 and after the original interviews by the PJ.
These documents/questionaires do not appear to be in the public domain. 
This is really interesting. I looked through FPs statements and I can't find anything about her visiting the apartment either. In fact she states that she never went to the apartment until after the alarm was raised. By the time she does her rogatory her story is extremely similar to everyone else's, even down to the angelic tableau reported by DP: 
 'Because he was saying how angelic they all looked and he said to Kate when we all sat down at the Tapas table as well and he was sort of joking how they looked like perfect children, because they were all sat there, all clean in their pyjamas, having a story'.


If there is a fourth statement we are flying blind with missing information.
You haven't looked very well.  If you read all of the posts in order you would know that I posted on page 13 of this thread -

Fiona Payne went to the McCann's apartment at 7.00 p.m. on 3rd May but it never seems to be mentioned, or very rarely and she didn't say why she went to the apartment.  I don't remember it been shown in the CW programme either -

http://www.justpamalam.co.uk/gmb//PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

To: Ricard Paiva
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

"I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement."

(These 2 paragraphs appear just before the Gaspar statements start in David Payne's statement).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I don't think it would be right to say that DC 1756 Mike Marshall made this up, do you?  It could well have been withheld, but it must exist for Mike Marshall to mention it.

____________________
Laurie Levenson, Quoted in the Guardian ........

"Never trust an eyewitness whose memory gets better over time"


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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by ultimaThule on 18.11.13 15:09

@Curioser wrote:I'm sorry you feel that way aquila. I didn't try to "blast (my) theory into someone's face at 100wpm." 
I just wanted one thread to stay on topic. If that cheapens the forum then I apologize. That was never my intention.
What was your intention when you posted your thread in the Debate Section, Curioser?  

Or are you referring to another thread which you wanted to stay on the topic of your own personal theory without having others comment on the discrepancies contained therein?

I sincerely hope aquila reconsiders their decision to leave the building as this forum will be poorer for their absence.

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