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Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by soundworks on 16.11.13 22:34

pissed=relaxed big grin

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Curioser on 16.11.13 23:10

@diatribe wrote:
@russiandoll wrote:Welcome Diatribe and what a great post. One thing for me....I am not convinced, in fact very unconvinced by any 6.30 pm independent sighting. David Payne along with Kate did not
Mea culpa, I was actually referring to circa 5.30 when Madeleine would have been signed out of the Day Centre by a member of staff. Where's the emoticon for embarrassed:)
Hey diatribe. Welcome.

The last independent sighting is at 5.30 when a creche worker saw Madeleine at high tea. There is some question about how M arrived at high tea and there are questions around whether she really is independent - she was invited to GM and KM's home so...

The 6.30 Payne sighting is definitely dodgy and there are a few different ideas around that as well. 

So, I'm interested in exploring your idea. What do you think might have happened at 6.30? Do you believe that one or more of the main players knew that M was dead already? Was the dinner staged or partially staged? When do you think they wrote the timelines on M's little book?

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by diatribe on 17.11.13 0:00

The problem that I have with the full complicity of the McCann compatriot's hypothesis is that's an awful lot of people having knowledge of a serious crime. There's a big difference between being supportive, even obstructive and actual hands on participation. I don't know much about portugese law, but in the UK this would be classified as a joint enterprise with very little disparity in sentences upon conviction. 

Even amongst serious career criminals, there is always the possibility of someone doing a deal with the police, in fact since the days of Bertie Smalls in the early 1970's, there's been no shortage of participants only too willing to give evidence against their accomplices in return for immunity from prosecution or lesser sentences. One only has to look at the Securitas and Brinks Mat robberies to name just a couple of instances, the list is endless and these were seasoned criminals, whereas the McCanns and their friends, apart from being doctors, are straight people. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Think about it, if yu'all had committed murder or manslaughter, would you want 7 of your friends knowing the intimate details of the crime, I know I wouldn't. Of course they all inadvertently helped by trashing a potential crime scene on the pretext of searching for Maddie, sure they were unco-operative and lied to the police, sure they know there wasn't an abduction, but to have sat down with the McCanns and plotted to dispose of the body is a quantum leap forward.

Would yu'all have the temerity to stand up to the world as the McCanns have done and in as many words state, sure we did it, but prove it in the full knowledge that 7 others have the goods on you. Allegiances change, when your friend becomes your foe, around the world your secrets go. There are a million other reasons why it would have been unwise for the McCanns to have involved their friends more than absolutely necessary, but I'm reaching that opiate fumed stage of the night where my brain has become too addled to list them all.big grin

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by chillyheat on 17.11.13 0:16

@Curioser wrote:
@diatribe wrote:
@russiandoll wrote:Welcome Diatribe and what a great post. One thing for me....I am not convinced, in fact very unconvinced by any 6.30 pm independent sighting. David Payne along with Kate did not
Mea culpa, I was actually referring to circa 5.30 when Madeleine would have been signed out of the Day Centre by a member of staff. Where's the emoticon for embarrassed:)
Hey diatribe. Welcome.

The last independent sighting is at 5.30 when a creche worker saw Madeleine at high tea. There is some question about how M arrived at high tea and there are questions around whether she really is independent - she was invited to GM and KM's home so...

The 6.30 Payne sighting is definitely dodgy and there are a few different ideas around that as well. 

So, I'm interested in exploring your idea. What do you think might have happened at 6.30? Do you believe that one or more of the main players knew that M was dead already? Was the dinner staged or partially staged? When do you think they wrote the timelines on M's little book?
Whats your personal opinion of page 129 ?

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Newintown on 17.11.13 0:31

@russiandoll wrote:Welcome Diatribe and what a great post. One thing for me....I am not convinced, in fact very unconvinced by any 6.30 pm independent sighting. David Payne along with Kate did not mention this at the earliest opportunity and recalled it very differently, less than a minute against 30 minutes iirc.
 He came into the apartment, he remained at the threshold.
 Conveniently described later as popping his head inside the patio doors.
 Too many changes in routine on 3rd for me to accept 3rd was the date. I believe that 2nd was D-day and 3rd the day for acting out the drama.
I agree with you.

Fiona Payne went to the McCann's apartment at 7.00 p.m. on 3rd May but it never seems to be mentioned, or very rarely and she didn't say why she went to the apartment.  I don't remember it been shown in the CW programme either -

http://www.justpamalam.co.uk/gmb//PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

To: Ricard Paiva
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

"I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement."

(These 2 paragraphs appear just before the Gaspar statements start)

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by joyce1938 on 17.11.13 9:10

does anyone wonder ,that if F went to the apartment together with kate ? so who was in apartment with the kids? thought that the kids were bathed and ready for bed at that time and g dad had already been there and no  its a puzzle ,when did d p go and see kids like little angels sat so nicely ? joyce1938

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by PeterMac on 17.11.13 9:35

@Newintown wrote:
"I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.
Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement."

(These 2 paragraphs appear just before the Gaspar statements start)
FIONA PAYNE is an anaesthetist.
As was KATE
Later that evening the twins failed to wake despite all the commotion, and remained comatose for 10 hours.

Small wonder then that Fiona's visit to the apartment has been suppressed.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Monty Heck on 17.11.13 11:57

@diatribe wrote:
@Cristobell wrote: 

although Jane Tanner may now be cooperating with the police - it must have been quite a shock for her apparition to become manifest, and I wonder if the missing chap was produced for her to identify, that would have been an interesting encounter.

Thanks for the welcome, I did actually address the alleged new witness on the 'Whitewash or Justice' thread. With the voluminous amount of threads on this site, it can be a tad difficult to initially familiarise oneself with the lay out. I think this may have been my first posting where I suffered the indignity of a couple of deletions. :)

''.Some might wonder what the (deleted) this alleged new witness, whether he be genuine or a figment of Inspector Deadwood's imagination has got to do with a gov. and meeja cover up. Well, if one thinks about it, quite a lot actually. The likelihood of an abduction having taken place within the 10 min. time limit available was becoming increasingly untenable, some might even conclude that it was physically impossible, if not bordering on the farcical. Hence the need for Gerry and his puppeteers to retrospectively come up with the notion that maybe there was an abductor already lurking in the apartment at 9.05 pm when he was so lovingly gazing over his daughter whilst thinking how lucky he was to have such a beautiful corpse.

So, whilst languishing in his plastic bath adorned with synbrass taps, our Inspector Deadwood has a eureka moment and decides that the time line needs to be extended. Alas, there's a problem in the form of Jane Tanner, surely to extend the time line would expose this public spirited citizen to be a liar and how would that look to his expectant audience in the tabloid press, after all, the name of the game isn't just to whitewash the McCanns, but the entire medical profession. Not to be thwarted, our intrepid inspector has yet another inspirational rush of blood to his already over taxed brain and decides to introduce a further player to the game. So, he creates another simulated figure resembling the one already conjoured up by Jane Tanner and calls him a british holiday maker who just happened to be passing the same spot at exactly the same time as our Jane purports to have seen the original apparition. Why, we'll even have him holding out his hands in the same unlikely mode as the Efit and attire his make believe brat in a similarly patterned pair of pyjamas to those which Jane described.
Some interesting points Diatribe.  Particularly agree with your thesis regarding whitewashing the medical profession as IMO this was the foundation for the otherwise inexplicable official support of the T9 from day one.  In their attempts to deflect crtiticism of the medical element of the T9, and by extension the medical profession in the NHS per se, our government allowed, promoted even the obfuscation we have witnessed in this case, which should have been a straightforward police investigation.  Media management NOT required.

Also Redwood's CW handling of the Tannerman episode.  It was ridiculous but now smoothed over.  Strange no media report on the PDL stranger with child now come forward.  Who is he and why did he fail to declare himself for so long?

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Miss Trunchbull on 17.11.13 12:31

@diatribe wrote:The problem that I have with the full complicity of the McCann compatriot's hypothesis is that's an awful lot of people having knowledge of a serious crime. There's a big difference between being supportive, even obstructive and actual hands on participation. I don't know much about portugese law, but in the UK this would be classified as a joint enterprise with very little disparity in sentences upon conviction. 

Even amongst serious career criminals, there is always the possibility of someone doing a deal with the police, in fact since the days of Bertie Smalls in the early 1970's, there's been no shortage of participants only too willing to give evidence against their accomplices in return for immunity from prosecution or lesser sentences. One only has to look at the Securitas and Brinks Mat robberies to name just a couple of instances, the list is endless and these were seasoned criminals, whereas the McCanns and their friends, apart from being doctors, are straight people. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Think about it, if yu'all had committed murder or manslaughter, would you want 7 of your friends knowing the intimate details of the crime, I know I wouldn't. Of course they all inadvertently helped by trashing a potential crime scene on the pretext of searching for Maddie, sure they were unco-operative and lied to the police, sure they know there wasn't an abduction, but to have sat down with the McCanns and plotted to dispose of the body is a quantum leap forward.

Would yu'all have the temerity to stand up to the world as the McCanns have done and in as many words state, sure we did it, but prove it in the full knowledge that 7 others have the goods on you. Allegiances change, when your friend becomes your foe, around the world your secrets go. There are a million other reasons why it would have been unwise for the McCanns to have involved their friends more than absolutely necessary, but I'm reaching that opiate fumed stage of the night where my brain has become too addled to list them all.big grin


Completely agree with all this posting.  

Involving lots of people in such a risky plan, even supposedly close friends, is unrealistic.

It's been over 6 years since the disappearance and someone would have broken down by now, IMO.

Edited to add: people mention the friends trashing the apartment to hide evidence/contaminate the site. However, my take on that is no-one knew it was a crime/murder scene at first. Madeleine could have woken up and wandered off, to be found a few hours later. Friends coming in and trying to help, albeit mucking up the 'crime scene', seems quite a normal reaction to me.



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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 17.11.13 12:49

@PeterMac wrote:
@Newintown wrote:
"I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.
Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement."

(These 2 paragraphs appear just before the Gaspar statements start)
FIONA PAYNE is an anaesthetist.
As was KATE
Later that evening the twins failed to wake despite all the commotion, and remained comatose for 10 hours.

Small wonder then that Fiona's visit to the apartment has been suppressed.
Weren't the McCs alone together in the apartment (but for the sleeping children), relaxing with a bottle of NZ wine from 1800-2030?

No sign of dear old Fi in their own commentaries. 

So David came/went after KH waved her white towel at him;
Then GM came in from tennis;
Then Fiona came in from ?
Then Fiona left (?)

The the McCs left

What does it look like?

What/who made Fiona come to apartment 5A? 
Just after her husband David left it, leaving a naked Kate in a towel. 
Why would Fiona feel the need to check on Kate after that visit from her husband?

Is the towel a red herring too, meant to draw attention of casual readers away from the interior of the apartment, and its remaining occupants; or was Kate cleaning up with that towel, and bleach? 

Did David a/o Fiona perhaps take a small overdosed child with them?

Did KH mean them, saying a couple took Maddie? 

Fascinating. But the Judiciary will find out, won't they?

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 17.11.13 14:12

But looking at the whole of that letter:

To: Ricard Paiva
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007 


Leicester Police Constabulary

Ricardo, 

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar. 
 

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed. 

When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and cannot remember if anyone else was there. 

He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon. 

He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield. 

He did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters. 

For many questions, he does not give a complete response, affirming simply that he has already given this information to the Portuguese police in his declarations. 

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to. 

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.


In it we have a third version of the DP and KM encounter with GM being there also.
As well as the FP forth version.

This letter is dated before the rogatory statements, and before they got their story straight.
And IMO thats all the events of the 3rd are, one big story.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by ultimaThule on 17.11.13 14:36

@Miss Trunchbull wrote:Edited to add: people mention the friends trashing the apartment to hide evidence/contaminate the site. However, my take on that is no-one knew it was a crime/murder scene at first. Madeleine could have woken up and wandered off, to be found a few hours later. Friends coming in and trying to help, albeit mucking up the 'crime scene', seems quite a normal reaction to me.
Except that, as she has maintained throughout, on discovering Madeleine missing from her bed KM knew immediately that the child had been 'taken' as evidenced by her failure to search for her daughter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWCVSjIJk8

The child's bedroom was adjacent to front entrance of a ground floor apartment  and, when confronted by an empty bed, an open window, and jemmied shutters, it would seem reasonable for KM to have immediately run out through the front door in the hope of seeing the child in the arms of whoever 'took' her, or at least perhaps the rear end of a vehicle leaving the car park. 

However, KM chose to leave her sleeping twins  in what was undoubtedly a very cold room, exposed to the elements and to the vagaries of passers-by, while she returned to the Tapas Bar via the patio doors at the rear of the apartment in order to inform her spouse, her friends, and all and sundry, that 'they've taken her'. In the face of such certainty, it seems curious that there was a delay of almost an hour before the police were notified. 

Given that few people in either the UK or the Iberian penisula are unaware that, on discovering a burglary, nothing should be touched until the site has been dusted for fingerprints and searched for other evidence of an intruder, it's also a matter of curiousity that the twins weren't removed from the scene of the crime and the room left untouched until the police arrived, especially as there was another bedroom they could have been moved to while all helpers/callers could have been confined to the living room/kitchen area.

It seems others members of the Tapas 7 were of the same mind as KM as to what had occurred which, no doubt, accounts for the cover of Madeleine's holiday sticker book - an item which the average 3 year old has a tendency to treasure - being ripped off in order that the male members of the group could construct timelines for the evening as an aid to the police who, some would say fortuitously, arrived while this work was in progress. 

What a judge in Portugal or a jury in the UK would make of the above remains to be seen.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by diatribe on 17.11.13 15:25

Without wishing to rain on others parades vis a vis the involvement of the Tapas 7, I think that focusing too intently on the McCann's friends is confusing the issue. Whilst I agree they all lied, they had their own agendas to do so which perversely helped the McCanns with their goal, which was of course to convince the world and his wife that their daughter had been abducted. In order for there to have been an abduction, there had to have been a degree of negligence, hence the McCanns reluctantly accepting culpability on this aspect, not too much mind you, after all, it was only equatable to dining in one's own garden.

If one takes away all the red herrings, fishing expeditions etc. this really is a very simple case ie. was there or was there not an abduction. If the latter, then it is a physical impossibility for the McCanns not to have been complicit in the disappearance of their daughter. This is where Inspector Deadwood shows his hand as to the real motive behind Operation Grunge where he categorically states that all avenues of investigation are to be explored, whilst at the same time stating that the aforementioned doesn't include the McCanns. One doesn't require to possess the brains of David LLoyd George, or for that matter the mathematical genius of Albert Einstein to interpret this a being a done deal, or as our  trans- atlantic colonial cousins would describe it, a slam dunk.

With regards to our intrepid inspector's impersonation of Paul Daniels pulling a british holiday maker out of the hat to corroborate Jane Tanner's somewhat less than divine vision. Well folks, I've gotta tell yer, he must be some kind of saint 'cos he's the only person since the commencement of this circus freak show who hasn't tried to cash in on the notoriety of the McCanns by selling their story to the tabloids. Why these hyenas are prepared to pay for Kate to tell them what colour knickers she has laid out for her daughter to wear upon return, surely they'd be interested in a story involving a witness of paramount importance suddenly materialising after all these yrs. even if it was only to ask him how he had coped with living as a tibetan monk with no means of communications for the past 6 yrs.big grin

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by diatribe on 17.11.13 15:30

@ultimaThule wrote:


Given that few people in either the UK or the Iberian penisula are unaware that, on discovering a burglary, nothing should be touched until the site has been dusted for fingerprints and searched for other evidence of an intruder, it's also a matter of curiousity that the twins weren't removed from the scene of the crime and the room left untouched until the police arrived, especially as there was another bedroom they could have been
I fully appreciate this fact, Ultima, but you've got to take into account that most people can just about manage their own ablutions under normal conditions, let alone take on Miss Marple roles in High Noon situations.big grin

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Rufus T on 17.11.13 16:33

dantezebu wrote:But looking at the whole of that letter:

To: Ricard Paiva
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007 


Leicester Police Constabulary

Ricardo, 

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar. 
 

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed. 

When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and cannot remember if anyone else was there. 

He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon. 

He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield. 

He did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters. 

For many questions, he does not give a complete response, affirming simply that he has already given this information to the Portuguese police in his declarations. 

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to. 

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.


In it we have a third version of the DP and KM encounter with GM being there also.
As well as the FP forth version.

This letter is dated before the rogatory statements, and before they got their story straight.
And IMO thats all the events of the 3rd are, one big story.
I have heard this mentioned before about FP going to the McCann's apartment at 19:00, however it is not in her statement of 20/4/07 nor is it mentioned in her rog. Either she made another statement which has not been released or Ricard Paiva has misinterpreted her original statement. 
Will keep checking in case I have missed something.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by sparkyhorrox on 17.11.13 16:35

@PeterMac wrote:
@Newintown wrote:
"I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.
Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement."

(These 2 paragraphs appear just before the Gaspar statements start)
FIONA PAYNE is an anaesthetist.
As was KATE
Later that evening the twins failed to wake despite all the commotion, and remained comatose for 10 hours.

Small wonder then that Fiona's visit to the apartment has been suppressed.
Am I looking in the wrong place?

Reading the first Rog,statement of F Payne taken on 4/5/2007 it says, on the 3/5/2007 she and her husband ,mother and children went to the
beach until 18:15 and then to the tennis courts until 19:00 and then back to their apartment where she left husband and mother bathing
the children whilst she went jogging until 20:00. On return got ready and all went down to Tapas where the evening carried on until the
alarm was raised..later in the statement she says she was comforting K Mc.     'but was never in the apartment'!

Was this another changed statement to add to the rest? liar 

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Why the McCanns and Tapas7 were Relaxed at dinner on 3 May

Post by RIPM on 17.11.13 16:41

@PeterMac wrote:
@Newintown wrote:
"I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.
Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement."

(These 2 paragraphs appear just before the Gaspar statements start)
FIONA PAYNE is an anaesthetist.
As was KATE
Later that evening the twins failed to wake despite all the commotion, and remained comatose for 10 hours.

Small wonder then that Fiona's visit to the apartment has been suppressed.
The other official police statement, always dismissed or glossed over, is that of DP on the 24th October 07 .He states he last saw M in 5a at 17.00 in the presence of K and G on Thursday 3rd May.

He gave that statement (which has not been released in full )in a British Police station to a British Policeman, in English.  There are no translation errors.

Along with FP statements these points are not conjecture but fact, so why did they give these statements is the question? perhaps it is the truth, conversely a huge lie but given before the important meeting at the Rothley Court Hotel in November.

On the vexed topic of cadaverine and miles of written conjecture on how long does it take to form, in actual fact you do not even need to be dead to produce small amounts, so with a small body it could start to form within minutes.

The other point repeated often is that GMTV were the first TV company to be informed of the disappearance.
 This is not true, nor was it Sky.

 It was the BBC and this is a major key component to events and so must be brushed away at every opportunity but who told them ,where and when goes a long way towards explaining where the high level of political support (interference) came from.
 There is no evidence of a vast political conspiracy but much stupidity and a cover up by the BBC (nothing new).

  K and G where very lucky it was local election night in the UK if it was the Thursday before, or the Thursday after, there is a very high probability the case would have been resolved 6 years ago and not in the McCanns favour.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by ultimaThule on 17.11.13 16:52

@diatribe wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:Given that few people in either the UK or the Iberian penisula are unaware that, on discovering a burglary, nothing should be touched until the site has been dusted for fingerprints and searched for other evidence of an intruder, it's also a matter of curiousity that the twins weren't removed from the scene of the crime and the room left untouched until the police arrived, especially as there was another bedroom they could have been
I fully appreciate this fact, Ultima, but you've got to take into account that most people can just about manage their own ablutions under normal conditions, let alone take on Miss Marple roles in High Noon situations.big grin
Firstly, I don't accept that 'most people' are as incapable of rational thought and action as you appear to believe them to be. 

Secondly, the McCanns and the Tapas 7 are not 'most people'.  They were/are a group of mainly professionals, 6 being at time doctors of medicine of 12+ years standing, who are more capable than most of responding in a cool, calm, and logical, manner to emergencies/fraught situations.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by ultimaThule on 17.11.13 16:55

@diatribe wrote:-snip-

With regards to our intrepid inspector's impersonation of Paul Daniels pulling a british holiday maker out of the hat to corroborate Jane Tanner's somewhat less than divine vision. Well folks, I've gotta tell yer, he must be some kind of saint 'cos he's the only person since the commencement of this circus freak show who hasn't tried to cash in on the notoriety of the McCanns by selling their story to the tabloids. Why these hyenas are prepared to pay for Kate to tell them what colour knickers she has laid out for her daughter to wear upon return, surely they'd be interested in a story involving a witness of paramount importance suddenly materialising after all these yrs. even if it was only to ask him how he had coped with living as a tibetan monk with no means of communications for the past 6 yrs.big grin
From this interview www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIvFkXkVn1I it's clear GM expected his past to be dredged up by the press but, as many others have remarked on this forum and elsewhere, it's as if the McCanns and their 7 friends came into being fully formed with no past worthy of comment by the media. 

I would be most interested to read anything you have found to the contrary, even if it is solely related to the colour of knickers.   

I agree with your remark "this really is a very simple case", albeit that it remains to be seen whether it is a simple case of murder or manslaughter

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by canada12 on 17.11.13 17:03

The thing that's always confounded me about Kate's shouty out is, why would she say "They've taken her." ?

Could we consider that rather a lot of wine was drunk on that evening, and that Kate actually fluffed her lines?

Could we consider that what she actually was meant to shout was "Madeleine's missing and I can't find her! Someone's taken her!" ?

But possibly because she was completely blotto, she jumped straight to the punch line, "They've taken her!" and that's why, for all of time, we're left with this totally incomprehensible vocal reaction to finding her child missing?

Just a thought.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by notlongnow on 17.11.13 17:10

Would you get that drunk if it was pre-meditated?

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 17.11.13 17:17

@Rufus T wrote:
dantezebu wrote:But looking at the whole of that letter:

To: Ricard Paiva
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007 


Leicester Police Constabulary

Ricardo, 

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar. 
 

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed. 

When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and cannot remember if anyone else was there. 

He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon. 

He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield. 

He did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters. 

For many questions, he does not give a complete response, affirming simply that he has already given this information to the Portuguese police in his declarations. 

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to. 

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.


In it we have a third version of the DP and KM encounter with GM being there also.
As well as the FP forth version.

This letter is dated before the rogatory statements, and before they got their story straight.
And IMO thats all the events of the 3rd are, one big story.
I have heard this mentioned before about FP going to the McCann's apartment at 19:00, however it is not in her statement of 20/4/07 nor is it mentioned in her rog. Either she made another statement which has not been released or Ricard Paiva has misinterpreted her original statement. 
Will keep checking in case I have missed something.
"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."


It seems to be relating to some inquiries by the LPD maybe in October 2007 or before, prior to the Rog statements in 2008 and after the original interviews by the PJ.
These documents/questionaires do not appear to be in the public domain. 

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by canada12 on 17.11.13 17:27

@notlongnow wrote:Would you get that drunk if it was pre-meditated?
It depends on what kind of pre-meditation we're talking about. If Kate's only task during dinner was to "discover" Madeleine missing, then shout out the alert, then yes, I could see her loading up on wine to help herself deal with what she already knew to be the case, the shock of it and the pain of it. If she knew Madeleine was already dead and was still coming to terms with what happened, why not? Human nature is not perfect, and people make mistakes. We could consider that Kate actually completely f*cked up her lines, and that's the start of much of the confusion about what on earth she meant when she said what she said.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Miss Trunchbull on 17.11.13 17:30

I'm struggling a bit with this 'pre-meditated' scenario. Particularly when it involves the possible involvement, and certainly the absolute secrecy of numerous friends.

If you're a doctor - with proper clinical experience, and not a trainee - you will know how to kill someone. I can't remember all the stuff I've read over the years, but isn't an injection of insulin pretty much guaranteed to finish you off? Isn't that how Harold Shipman got away with murder over many years?

So, back to PdeLuz, why would you bother with this elaborate pantomime (shutters open/closed, door locked/unlocked etc.) and numerous confidantes ( who have everything to lose if the plan is ever unmasked), when a simple injection would do? 

On the other hand, I can see how over-sedation, unexpected death and a hurried disposal might have happened - but definately without the help of outsiders.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 17.11.13 17:35

Shipman used to inject morphine or diamorphine not insulin.

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