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Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

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Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by RIPM on 09.11.13 10:47

Thesis part one.  To be read with the following provisos.


All times are uncertain but fall within the known parameters
It is possible the McCanns and other Tapas group either sedated their children, or knew it was happening
The McCanns and Tapas 7 lie whenever the opportunity presents itself, but most lies have some basis in truth


The McCanns leave 5a at about 20.20 with M and the twins sedated.  The sedatives have been problematic all week with bad reactions leading to sickness amongst the children in the group.  Shortly after Macs leave 5a with the sedative only partially effective, a groggy M gets up, climbs onto the sofa to look for her parents, falls, cracks her head or breaks her neck and dies.  There is very little blood.

At around 21.00 Gerry does a perfunctory check there is 'no proud father 'moment ,he does not look in on M; turns round and goes back to the Tapas.  He does not see M behind the sofa.  On the way he meets JW, has a chat and returns to the Tapas.

Everything OK.  Nothing is wrong, eating, drinking, chatting as normal.

At around 21.20 MO goes into 5a makes a very perfunctory check ,doesn't see M behind the sofa, does not look in on M and goes back to the Tapas.


Everything Ok.  Nothing is wrong, eating, drinking, chatter as normal.

Around 21.40 K goes into 5a, she too is not going to look in at M but the door slamming makes her look.  Genuine fear, genuine panic, M is not in the bed.
  In a blind genuine panic she rushes out of 5a and back to the Tapas bar to raise the alarm.  Genuine reactions of alarm from the group.  All except JT and DW run to 5a.  M is found dead behind the sofa, all present have either sedated, or know the children are sedated.

They are Doctors, they know an autopsy will show illegal sedation and misuse of drugs in M and the other children, their prestige ,standing in society, careers, licence to practice now hang by a thread.  Prison in a foreign country and who knows what may follow.

They are panicked ,they cannot delay people may have seen the alarm raised in the Tapas.
After several minutes of arguments abduction is suggested as the best way to explain M's disappearance, an autopsy cannot be allowed.

  They are Doctors, crisis decisions and swift actions are normal, G's mantra "do not look back, what's done is done, focus and move forward" Doctors mantra, "you cannot bring back the dead but you can try to save the living".  Doctors covering up for each other is endemic behaviour. Gerry makes a decision, they need more time, so Gerry picks up M, and runs through the night towards the beach to use as a temporary hiding place.

On the way at about 22.00 he passes the Smith family.

  Meanwhile back in 5a the clean-up and trashing of 5a is underway.  Each person has their own idea of how to stage an abduction and what to do.  Do we damage the shutters or ring the BBC?  Time is getting short, the Police may already be on their way.  They telephone the relations to plant the abduction seed, they knew searching was a waste of time.  A timeline and strategy is quickly written on the back of a book, and the circus begins.

Later that night .....the De Profundis.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by twisted on 09.11.13 11:05

Brilliant!! I like it.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by MrsC on 09.11.13 11:07

What made the door slam?

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by oakeso on 09.11.13 11:26

It's logical RIPM and 60% of me thinks along the same lines but I've got a few conflicts. 

The evidence found in the boot of the scenic indicates a lot of cleaning up in 5A. Where would they get cleaning materials at short notice and would the floors etc dry out quickly and why was there no mention of cleaning smells that you'd expect.

Few/if any photos of Madeleine or McCanns in a normal family situation in PDL

The haste to contact UK media/family doesn't seem to be a rushed decision, it was too strategic

What did KM need the washing machine for, no sign of drying clothes anywhere in the apartment. 

The photos that were distributed weren't recent

Outside of T9 I don't see anyone mention how K was that night and having watched them on TV she's mastered the art of remaining silent where I believe G could talk his way through anything

Always in the back of my mind the tapas alibi needed to be executed on or before 3rd because the tennis dinner on 4th wouldn't have been workable.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by bellum on 09.11.13 11:28

@MrsC wrote:What made the door slam?
The wind that did not exist at that moment according to Mrs. Amaral.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by BRODFB on 09.11.13 11:40

The door slam isn't important to that timeline. It just needs some reason why K would check.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by bellum on 09.11.13 11:43

On an article, Amaral tells that Madeleine died in two different places.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by cockerspaniel on 09.11.13 11:47

@RIPM wrote:Thesis part one.  To be read with the following provisos.


All times are uncertain but fall within the known parameters
It is possible the McCanns and other Tapas group either sedated their children, or knew it was happening
The McCanns and Tapas 7 lie whenever the opportunity presents itself, but most lies have some basis in truth


The McCanns leave 5a at about 20.20 with M and the twins sedated.  The sedatives have been problematic all week with bad reactions leading to sickness amongst the children in the group.  Shortly after Macs leave 5a with the sedative only partially effective, a groggy M gets up, climbs onto the sofa to look for her parents, falls, cracks her head or breaks her neck and dies.  There is very little blood.

At around 21.00 Gerry does a perfunctory check there is 'no proud father 'moment ,he does not look in on M; turns round and goes back to the Tapas.  He does not see M behind the sofa.  On the way he meets JW, has a chat and returns to the Tapas.

Everything OK.  Nothing is wrong, eating, drinking, chatting as normal.

At around 21.20 MO goes into 5a makes a very perfunctory check ,doesn't see M behind the sofa, does not look in on M and goes back to the Tapas.


Everything Ok.  Nothing is wrong, eating, drinking, chatter as normal.

Around 21.40 K goes into 5a, she too is not going to look in at M but the door slamming makes her look.  Genuine fear, genuine panic, M is not in the bed.
  In a blind genuine panic she rushes out of 5a and back to the Tapas bar to raise the alarm.  Genuine reactions of alarm from the group.  All except JT and DW run to 5a.  M is found dead behind the sofa, all present have either sedated, or know the children are sedated.

They are Doctors, they know an autopsy will show illegal sedation and misuse of drugs in M and the other children, their prestige ,standing in society, careers, licence to practice now hang by a thread.  Prison in a foreign country and who knows what may follow.

They are panicked ,they cannot delay people may have seen the alarm raised in the Tapas.
After several minutes of arguments abduction is suggested as the best way to explain M's disappearance, an autopsy cannot be allowed.

  They are Doctors, crisis decisions and swift actions are normal, G's mantra "do not look back, what's done is done, focus and move forward" Doctors mantra, "you cannot bring back the dead but you can try to save the living".  Doctors covering up for each other is endemic behaviour. Gerry makes a decision, they need more time, so Gerry picks up M, and runs through the night towards the beach to use as a temporary hiding place.

On the way at about 22.00 he passes the Smith family.

  Meanwhile back in 5a the clean-up and trashing of 5a is underway.  Each person has their own idea of how to stage an abduction and what to do.  Do we damage the shutters or ring the BBC?  Time is getting short, the Police may already be on their way.  They telephone the relations to plant the abduction seed, they knew searching was a waste of time.  A timeline and strategy is quickly written on the back of a book, and the circus begins.

Later that night .....the De Profundis.
I think this makes quite a lot of sense,maybe allow for MBM to be placed in the flowerbed momentarily when GM comes out the back door and sees JW coming up the road?

one thing that does puzzle me,if GM did carry his daughter through the streets,why no cadavarine indicated on his clothes,and if they were not checked,why not? and why only KM`S?

Also I would be much happier if RM was somehow worked in to this thesis as i feel sure he is integral to the `plot` !   all jut in my opinion of course.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Julchen on 09.11.13 11:55

Like that scenario!

Just one thing that keeps creeping up in my mind:
If they all had their kids sedated and they all knew, why would they take the inconvenience on checking every 20 minutes
in the first place unless omething had obviously gone wrong already (i.e. that afternoon or in the process of sedating the kids)?
My experience with "celebrating/dining"(i.e. binge drinking) Brits is that they couldn't care less for anything other than the next booze.
Which seems to have been going on at the bar that night.

Why didn't one of the others (out of the spotlight) deal with a removal while the "worried parents" stood up to the police?

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by galena on 09.11.13 12:13

@RIPM wrote:Thesis part one.  To be read with the following provisos.


All times are uncertain but fall within the known parameters
It is possible the McCanns and other Tapas group either sedated their children, or knew it was happening
The McCanns and Tapas 7 lie whenever the opportunity presents itself, but most lies have some basis in truth


The McCanns leave 5a at about 20.20 with M and the twins sedated.  The sedatives have been problematic all week with bad reactions leading to sickness amongst the children in the group.  Shortly after Macs leave 5a with the sedative only partially effective, a groggy M gets up, climbs onto the sofa to look for her parents, falls, cracks her head or breaks her neck and dies.  There is very little blood.

At around 21.00 Gerry does a perfunctory check there is 'no proud father 'moment ,he does not look in on M; turns round and goes back to the Tapas.  He does not see M behind the sofa.  On the way he meets JW, has a chat and returns to the Tapas.

Everything OK.  Nothing is wrong, eating, drinking, chatting as normal.

At around 21.20 MO goes into 5a makes a very perfunctory check ,doesn't see M behind the sofa, does not look in on M and goes back to the Tapas.


Everything Ok.  Nothing is wrong, eating, drinking, chatter as normal.

Around 21.40 K goes into 5a, she too is not going to look in at M but the door slamming makes her look.  Genuine fear, genuine panic, M is not in the bed.
  In a blind genuine panic she rushes out of 5a and back to the Tapas bar to raise the alarm.  Genuine reactions of alarm from the group.  All except JT and DW run to 5a.  M is found dead behind the sofa, all present have either sedated, or know the children are sedated.

They are Doctors, they know an autopsy will show illegal sedation and misuse of drugs in M and the other children, their prestige ,standing in society, careers, licence to practice now hang by a thread.  Prison in a foreign country and who knows what may follow.

They are panicked ,they cannot delay people may have seen the alarm raised in the Tapas.
After several minutes of arguments abduction is suggested as the best way to explain M's disappearance, an autopsy cannot be allowed.

  They are Doctors, crisis decisions and swift actions are normal, G's mantra "do not look back, what's done is done, focus and move forward" Doctors mantra, "you cannot bring back the dead but you can try to save the living".  Doctors covering up for each other is endemic behaviour. Gerry makes a decision, they need more time, so Gerry picks up M, and runs through the night towards the beach to use as a temporary hiding place.

On the way at about 22.00 he passes the Smith family.

  Meanwhile back in 5a the clean-up and trashing of 5a is underway.  Each person has their own idea of how to stage an abduction and what to do.  Do we damage the shutters or ring the BBC?  Time is getting short, the Police may already be on their way.  They telephone the relations to plant the abduction seed, they knew searching was a waste of time.  A timeline and strategy is quickly written on the back of a book, and the circus begins.

Later that night .....the De Profundis.
The timeline seems a little tight to me - so within the space of about 15 minutes - they have found the body, presumably tried and failed to revive her and Gerry has thought of a temporary hiding place, grabbed the body and rushed off into the night?  The rest of the party - who have had a few drinks and been quite relaxed until now immediately go along with that and start to work staging the scene.  Doesn't seem very plausible to me -what the was the big rush to dispose of the body?  Where it not for the cadaver dog evidence I would find the abuction theory way more plausible ...

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by sami on 09.11.13 12:20

@bellum wrote:On an article, Amaral tells that Madeleine died in two different places.
Can you post a link please.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by sami on 09.11.13 12:23

@BRODFB wrote:The door slam isn't important to that timeline. It just needs some reason why K would check.
Given the theory is based on nobody else checking physically the whole evening, it is important.  If nobody else looked, why did she decided to ?

It is even more important because it s something Kate McCann says happened, during her visit, for no apparent reason.  She claims the window was open, so the door banged.  This made her look.

If the door did not bang, then why did she suddenly decide to look ?

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by ultimaThule on 09.11.13 12:27

@bellum wrote:On an article, Amaral tells that Madeleine died in two different places.
I think you are referrring to Eddie the cadaver dog scenting the odour of cadaverine in two different places, behind the sofa and by the wardrobe in the McCanns' bedroom, when he searched 5A, bellum.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by ultimaThule on 09.11.13 12:50

Your theory, along with others on the same well-worn theme, does not work for me as it disregards the fact that neither of the McCanns are prone to panic, RIPM. 

GM is undoubtedly an opportunist, but he's not reckless and it's my belief the pre-staged pantomime in the Tapas bar was acted out some considerable time after Madeleine's 'disappearence' from this earth. 

Until such time as a plausible theory is presented which takes into account the numerous indications of this crime having been premeditated,I find this http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com.au/p/theory-english.html scenario, which has been formulated by someone who has taken the time to read the files and has paid some attention to the psychology of the McCanns and their friends, to be more credible than most.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 13:01

I am not sure if this has been proposed before.
But if the concern of the MCs was the presence of sedatives that might be found in Maddies body at PM. And that was the reason for hiding her body in such a panic,
I think it might be easier to stage a scene were Maddie ingested the said sedatives by accident, i.e. empty bottle, a few pills lying around etc. etc. 
That would only take a few minutes.

Rather than stage the scene of an abduction, with the added problem of hiding her body.
There had to someting more than just the possible presence of sedatives for them to stage it this way.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 13:04

I meant to add nothing suggests to me that Maddie died on the night of the 3rd.
And the staging of the abduction was not done in a panic.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 13:06

IMO it was a bad script played out wrong that night. After all, they were not "professionals" other than being doctors ...

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by pennylane on 09.11.13 13:32

dantezebu wrote:I meant to add nothing suggests to me that Maddie died on the night of the 3rd.
And the staging of the abduction was not done in a panic.
Do you believe the twins were sedated on the 3rd?

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 13:43

@pennylane wrote:
dantezebu wrote:I meant to add nothing suggests to me that Maddie died on the night of the 3rd.
And the staging of the abduction was not done in a panic.
Do you believe the twins were sedated on the 3rd?
It is a definate possibility that they were, given the descriptions from various witnesses.
But if they were it was to ensure they didn't wake up for different reasons (not for the meal), it would be difficult for the play to be acted out if one or the other had woken up and started crying before the absence of Maddie had been established.
That could have disrupted all the plans.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by pennylane on 09.11.13 13:52

dantezebu wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
dantezebu wrote:I meant to add nothing suggests to me that Maddie died on the night of the 3rd.
And the staging of the abduction was not done in a panic.
Do you believe the twins were sedated on the 3rd?
It is a definate possibility that they were, given the descriptions from various witnesses.
But if they were it was to ensure they didn't wake up for different reasons (not for the meal), it would be difficult for the play to be acted out if one or the other had woken up and started crying before the absence of Maddie had been established.
That could have disrupted all the plans.
I can't get my head around such a sloppily put together, 'premeditated' crime though.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by ultimaThule on 09.11.13 13:58

dantezebu wrote:I am not sure if this has been proposed before.
But if the concern of the MCs was the presence of sedatives that might be found in Maddies body at PM. And that was the reason for hiding her body in such a panic,
I think it might be easier to stage a scene were Maddie ingested the said sedatives by accident, i.e. empty bottle, a few pills lying around etc. etc. 
That would only take a few minutes.

Rather than stage the scene of an abduction, with the added problem of hiding her body.
There had to someting more than just the possible presence of sedatives for them to stage it this way.
It would be careless but not necessarily neglectful parenting if Madeleine had mistaken a bottle of one of her parent's medication for candy and eaten them without their knowledge, dantezebu.  I agree that staging this scenario would be far easier than the pantomime which took place and it's probable there was another reason, or reasons, why autopsy was to be avoided at all costs, but perhaps we should look at what 'sedative' may have been administered to the child - and, possibly, to her siblings  

Back in 2007 doctors were able to self-prescribe without fear of censure and it may be that either one of the McCanns wrote themselves prescriptions for medication such as temazepam, or similar sleeping pills of a more lurid hue, in which case the death of one of their children would be ascribed to a tragic accident with the familiar warning to parents to keep all drugs and other harmful substances out of reach from curious young fingers.

However, as a locum GP, KM had access to the large quantities of assorted drug samples which are pressed on GP surgeries by pharmaceutical company representatives and if the child had ingested some of these 'freebies', discovery may have posed a number of problems, not least being that her younger siblings - and possibly the offspring of their doctor friends - may have been tested to ascertain whether they had any history of ingesting similar substances. 

While this problem, if thought through by a brain possessed of more than the average intelligence displayed by the Tapas 9, was not insurmountable it may have been sufficient to cause the group to embark on, what I remain hopeful will prove to be, a suicide mission - albeit one of many years' duration.

As she assures the readers of her bewk, KM submitted herself and the twins to drug testing... months after the event and, I suspect, after all three had paid a trip to the hairdresser. Fwiw, KM's description of herself as looking as if she'd developed alopecia after hair samples were taken is, of course, yet another exaggeration of the type which we have come to expect from the McCanns.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 14:03

@pennylane wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
dantezebu wrote:I meant to add nothing suggests to me that Maddie died on the night of the 3rd.
And the staging of the abduction was not done in a panic.
Do you believe the twins were sedated on the 3rd?
It is a definate possibility that they were, given the descriptions from various witnesses.
But if they were it was to ensure they didn't wake up for different reasons (not for the meal), it would be difficult for the play to be acted out if one or the other had woken up and started crying before the absence of Maddie had been established.
That could have disrupted all the plans.
I can't get my head around such a sloppily put together, 'premeditated' crime though.
But it wasn't so sloppy that they have been arrested and tried after 6 years.
With the police still looking for the "abducter".
They obviously got enough of the elements right. Bearing in mind that we are talking a day or two planning, not longer. 
And in that time they had to cover a lot of bases, such as disposal, cleaning and appearing to the outside world to be enjoying a "normal" holiday.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by ultimaThule on 09.11.13 14:09

@pennylane wrote:I can't get my head around such a sloppily put together, 'premeditated' crime though.
As the McCanns have proved, it's a fallacy that more than average intelligence is required to become a doctor of medicine.

The fact is they both got into third tier med schools on the working class ticket, with GM electing to remain as close to his home as possible while KM got as far away from hers as she could.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by pennylane on 09.11.13 14:18

dantezebu wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
dantezebu wrote:I meant to add nothing suggests to me that Maddie died on the night of the 3rd.
And the staging of the abduction was not done in a panic.
Do you believe the twins were sedated on the 3rd?
It is a definate possibility that they were, given the descriptions from various witnesses.
But if they were it was to ensure they didn't wake up for different reasons (not for the meal), it would be difficult for the play to be acted out if one or the other had woken up and started crying before the absence of Maddie had been established.
That could have disrupted all the plans.
I can't get my head around such a sloppily put together, 'premeditated' crime though.
But it wasn't so sloppy that they have been arrested and tried after 6 years.
With the police still looking for the "abducter".
They obviously got enough of the elements right. Bearing in mind that we are talking a day or two planning, not longer. 
And in that time they had to cover a lot of bases, such as disposal, cleaning and appearing to the outside world to be enjoying a "normal" holiday.
Thanks for your replies dantezebu hello 

I have to disagree with it not being sloppy.  The PJ knew they were lying almost from the get go, so did the press and the world.  They couldn't attend a reconstruction because they knew their story didn't hold water.  It was only damage limitations from their high priced employees that saved them from crashing and burning on the spot.  The open window and shutters was garbage, and Gerry first said he entered through the locked front door, and had to switch even that to the unlocked patio doors.  I could go on and on, why I believe their story was not thought through at all, and was all backfitted.

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Re: Why the McCanns and the Tapas 7 were Relaxed at Dinner on 3rd May

Post by pennylane on 09.11.13 14:20

@ultimaThule wrote:
@pennylane wrote:I can't get my head around such a sloppily put together, 'premeditated' crime though.
As the McCanns have proved, it's a fallacy that more than average intelligence is required to become a doctor of medicine.

The fact is they both got into third tier med schools on the working class ticket, with GM electing to remain as close to his home as possible while KM got as far away from hers as she could.
Now that I agree with entirely! yes

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