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sleeping children

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by ultimaThule on 06.11.13 16:29

@Sockpuppet wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:It wouldn't be unheard of - thinking of the almost 3-year-old son of the Wimbledon Common murder victim Rachel Nickell.
In that case, what if the police wanted to talk to the twins and it became clear that they wouldn't wake up?  What would they think?

And there is a very big difference between 2 year olds and 3 year olds :)
Hopefully no-one would be so insensitive as to wake up very young children in order to 'question' them.

Children of all ages absorb and reflect the emotions and feelings of others, particularly those of the adults closest to them and, whether verbal or non-verbal, young children act out through play any unusual or traumatic event they have observed or witnessed.

The ongoing libel trial established that, shortly after the abrupt disappearance of their elder sister and playmate, the twins were 'seen' on one occasion in Portugal by a psychologist.  I suspect that one occasion was of short duration and took place in the presence of one or both of their parents. 

Notwithstanding the worrying remarks made by KM in her 'bewk' which many perceived as a threat to their physical welfare, I have a particular and longstanding concern for the emotional wellbeing of the twins.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Guest on 06.11.13 17:43

They may have been able to say when they last saw Madeleine.

In the Lisa Irwin case, the parents wouldn't allow her elder half-brothers to be interviewed. One can only wonder what they feared might be revealed.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Guest on 06.11.13 17:49

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:They may have been able to say when they last saw Madeleine.

In the Lisa Irwin case, the parents wouldn't allow her elder half-brothers to be interviewed. One can only wonder what they feared might be revealed.
***
Yes, I remember that. Case still unsolved, though many have founded opinions of what happened ... They lawyered up very early on too BTW.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Searcher on 06.11.13 17:54

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Sockpuppet wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:It wouldn't be unheard of - thinking of the almost 3-year-old son of the Wimbledon Common murder victim Rachel Nickell.
In that case, what if the police wanted to talk to the twins and it became clear that they wouldn't wake up?  What would they think?

And there is a very big difference between 2 year olds and 3 year olds :)
Hopefully no-one would be so insensitive as to wake up very young children in order to 'question' them.

Children of all ages absorb and reflect the emotions and feelings of others, particularly those of the adults closest to them and, whether verbal or non-verbal, young children act out through play any unusual or traumatic event they have observed or witnessed.

The ongoing libel trial established that, shortly after the abrupt disappearance of their elder sister and playmate, the twins were 'seen' on one occasion in Portugal by a psychologist.  I suspect that one occasion was of short duration and took place in the presence of one or both of their parents. 

Notwithstanding the worrying remarks made by KM in her 'bewk' which many perceived as a threat to their physical welfare, I have a particular and longstanding concern for the emotional wellbeing of the twins.
I worry that, as far as we know, the twins were not checked after the event, or taken to hospital, or given a drug test?  The word 'autopsy' comes into mind a lot and how it might be better to avoid one.  Apologies for saying this; it feels awful to write it and it is only my opinion.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by boo boos on 06.11.13 18:25

Not just the children who didn't have trouble sleeping!
Kate's bewk (paperback p.105): Back in the apartment the cold, black night enveloped us all for what seemed like an eternity. Dianne and I sat there just staring at each other, still as statues.... Gerry was stretched out on a camp bed with Amelie asleep on his chest. He kept saying, 'Kate, we need to rest.' He managed to drift off but only briefly, certainly for less than an hr. I didn't even try. I couldn't have allowed myself to entertain sleep. I felt Madeleine's terror, and I had to keep vigil with her. At long last, dawn broke.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Guest on 06.11.13 18:30

@boo boos wrote:Not just the children who didn't have trouble sleeping!
Kate's bewk (paperback p.105): Back in the apartment the cold, black night enveloped us all for what seemed like an eternity. Dianne and I sat there just staring at each other, still as statues....  Gerry was stretched out on a camp bed with Amelie asleep on  his chest. He kept saying, 'Kate, we need to rest.' He managed to drift off but only briefly, certainly for less than an hr. I didn't even try. I couldn't have allowed myself to entertain sleep. I felt Madeleine's terror, and I had to keep vigil with her. At long last, dawn broke.
It is hard to believe isn't it. Your daughter taken barely 5 or 6 hours before, and GM stretched out on a camp bed sleeping. My brain just can't comprehend that.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by ultimaThule on 06.11.13 18:32

@Searcher wrote:I worry that, as far as we know, the twins were not checked after the event, or taken to hospital, or given a drug test?  The word 'autopsy' comes into mind a lot and how it might be better to avoid one.  Apologies for saying this; it feels awful to write it and it is only my opinion.
When it comes to people such as the McCanns, we're best advised to put aside any desire to view them as being rightminded parents and give consideration to their motive for concealing the body of their firstborn child without feeling 'awful' about thinking what, to many, is unthinkable.

I recently posted the following on another thread and have copied to here as it is pertinent to your mention of the word autopsy.:

"Had Madeleine died as a result of accidental injury, any delay in notifying the authorities could be explained by her parents both being doctors who are competent to certify death and who were aware that, once the appropriate authorities were alerted, she would immediately be removed to a mortuary to await autopsy, a prospect which would be worsened by the thought of her being alone far from home and in a foreign country.   

Under those circumstances, it would be entirely understandable if the McCanns delayed parting with the body of their beloved child who succumbed to accidental death which autopsy would undoubtedly confirm, and I have no doubt their friends would have supported this account by affirming that Madeleine's distraught parents had to be gently persuaded over a period of hours, if not days, to make the necessary call with none of them wishing to be the one who hastened the inevitable.  

In short, had they not been present at the time their eldest daughter sustained accidental fatal injury, the McCanns would have had no difficulty hiding the fact that they were absent when she died, or finding reason to delay until time of death could not be determined with any accuracy. 

The indisputable fact is that there can be only one reason why Madeleine's body was concealed, which is that the findings of an autopsy would have caused the McCanns to account for her death in a court of law with all that entails, including the potential removal of the twins from their care, being struck off the Medical Register etc.

If Madeleine died of an overdose of non-prescribed medication administered by one or other of her parents in order that they could leave their child/ren home alone for hours, and if their friends were also medicating their offspring with similar intent,  the findings of autopsy could lead to her siblings and the other children in the group being tested to see whether they had also ingested any non-prescribed drugs and this scenario may explain the infamous 'pact'.

However, tempted as I am to believe that the Tapas 9 are all in it up to their necks, it's possible that if Madeleine died as a result of non-accidental injury/injuries the McCanns may not have revealed the truth to all of their friends and some may have colluded in a cover-up without being fully aware of the circumstances of her death."
                                                                                         _______________

The McCanns, with or without the help of their friends,  would have had no problem whatsoever in concocting a story to account for their absence at the time their daughter sustained an accidental injury which proved fatal or, conversely, to claim one or the other was present, albeit  in another room, when the accident occurred.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 06.11.13 18:38

candyfloss wrote:
@boo boos wrote:Not just the children who didn't have trouble sleeping!
Kate's bewk (paperback p.105): Back in the apartment the cold, black night enveloped us all for what seemed like an eternity. Dianne and I sat there just staring at each other, still as statues....  Gerry was stretched out on a camp bed with Amelie asleep on  his chest. He kept saying, 'Kate, we need to rest.' He managed to drift off but only briefly, certainly for less than an hr. I didn't even try. I couldn't have allowed myself to entertain sleep. I felt Madeleine's terror, and I had to keep vigil with her. At long last, dawn broke.
It is hard to believe isn't it.  Your daughter taken barely 5 or 6 hours before, and GM stretched out on a camp bed sleeping.  My brain just can't comprehend that.  
It does stand out as one of the most wft   moments in terms of their behaviour. Although the list is miles long, this is staggering. Any other person on the planet would only sleep when they collapsed from exhaustion or were sedated in the case of a missing child. This is on a par to Kate saying she slept soundly after 4 or 5 days.

This pair of f***wits are from the Twilight Zone.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by sami on 06.11.13 18:47

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
@boo boos wrote:Not just the children who didn't have trouble sleeping!
Kate's bewk (paperback p.105): Back in the apartment the cold, black night enveloped us all for what seemed like an eternity. Dianne and I sat there just staring at each other, still as statues....  Gerry was stretched out on a camp bed with Amelie asleep on  his chest. He kept saying, 'Kate, we need to rest.' He managed to drift off but only briefly, certainly for less than an hr. I didn't even try. I couldn't have allowed myself to entertain sleep. I felt Madeleine's terror, and I had to keep vigil with her. At long last, dawn broke.
It is hard to believe isn't it.  Your daughter taken barely 5 or 6 hours before, and GM stretched out on a camp bed sleeping.  My brain just can't comprehend that.  
It does stand out as one of the most     wft    moments in terms of their behaviour. Although the list is miles long, this is staggering. Any other person on the planet would only sleep when they collapsed from exhaustion or were sedated in the case of a missing child. This is on a par to Kate saying she slept soundly after 4 or 5 days.

This pair of f***wits are from the Twilight Zone.
 "He kept saying Kate we need to rest"......we are playing tennis tomorrow.

Have they ever read the book themselves, really ?  Do they not see how far removed they are from reality.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Cerinthe on 06.11.13 18:48

I wondered if David Payne's early evening visit was connected to sedation.  There was a definite reason he visited.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Guest on 06.11.13 18:50

How many of us, on here and on other fora, have expressed over and over again their unbelieve and given their stories of running around in cold, dark nights looking for their PETS!

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Guest on 06.11.13 18:53

@Cerinthe wrote:I wondered if David Payne's early evening visit was connected to sedation.  There was a definite reason he visited.
***
The problem is that they both gave a totally different statement about the time spent at the sliding doors and - believe or not - DP couldn't remember what KM was wearing then, whereas she claims, she was wrapped up in a towel as she was having a shower ... nah 

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by boo boos on 06.11.13 18:56

You and I both Candy.
As for the twins being able to tell police anything, judging from this they wouldn't recognise their sister in a bloody line-up! Unbelievable! The bewk again (p.128/129):
[sorry, me again - Kate is talking about sat May 4]Neither Amelie nor Sean had yet mentioned Madeleine, or at least, not that we had heard. With their friends around them and their grandparents there, perhaps they didn't have much of a chance to fully register her absence. I think it was the next day before Sean first asked me, 'Where's Madeleine, Mummy?'

This is Sunday May 7th - she wasn't there when they awoke Friday morning, in a different apartment I might add, and yet neither of them wonder where she is for at least two days?!
Did Madeleine really live with them? Am I right in thinking Kate said the twins didn't have much to do with her - in response to were the twins missing her, in an interview?

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Searcher on 06.11.13 19:06

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Searcher wrote:I worry that, as far as we know, the twins were not checked after the event, or taken to hospital, or given a drug test?  The word 'autopsy' comes into mind a lot and how it might be better to avoid one.  Apologies for saying this; it feels awful to write it and it is only my opinion.
..  The indisputable fact is that there can be only one reason why Madeleine's body was concealed, which is that the findings of an autopsy would have caused the McCanns to account for her death in a court of law with all that entails, including the potential removal of the twins from their care, being struck off the Medical Register etc.

If Madeleine died of an overdose of non-prescribed medication administered by one or other of her parents in order that they could leave their child/ren home alone for hours, and if their friends were also medicating their offspring with similar intent,  the findings of autopsy could lead to her siblings and the other children in the group being tested to see whether they had also ingested any non-prescribed drugs and this scenario may explain the infamous 'pact'.

However, tempted as I am to believe that the Tapas 9 are all in it up to their necks, it's possible that if Madeleine died as a result of non-accidental injury/injuries the McCanns may not have revealed the truth to all of their friends and some may have colluded in a cover-up without being fully aware of the circumstances of her death."
                                                                                         _______________

The McCanns, with or without the help of their friends,  would have had no problem whatsoever in concocting a story to account for their absence at the time their daughter sustained an accidental injury which proved fatal or, conversely, to claim one or the other was present, albeit  in another room, when the accident occurred.
Yes, ultimaThule, you have expressed my thoughts.  But there could be other reasons for avoiding an autopsy and they are even worse than the above.  I do say again how sorry I am even to think such thoughts; and only my opinion.  But everything has to be questioned for the sake of the child.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by ultimaThule on 06.11.13 19:23

@Searcher wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@Searcher wrote:I worry that, as far as we know, the twins were not checked after the event, or taken to hospital, or given a drug test?  The word 'autopsy' comes into mind a lot and how it might be better to avoid one.  Apologies for saying this; it feels awful to write it and it is only my opinion.
..  The indisputable fact is that there can be only one reason why Madeleine's body was concealed, which is that the findings of an autopsy would have caused the McCanns to account for her death in a court of law with all that entails, including the potential removal of the twins from their care, being struck off the Medical Register etc.

If Madeleine died of an overdose of non-prescribed medication administered by one or other of her parents in order that they could leave their child/ren home alone for hours, and if their friends were also medicating their offspring with similar intent,  the findings of autopsy could lead to her siblings and the other children in the group being tested to see whether they had also ingested any non-prescribed drugs and this scenario may explain the infamous 'pact'.

However, tempted as I am to believe that the Tapas 9 are all in it up to their necks, it's possible that if Madeleine died as a result of non-accidental injury/injuries the McCanns may not have revealed the truth to all of their friends and some may have colluded in a cover-up without being fully aware of the circumstances of her death."
                                                                                         _______________

The McCanns, with or without the help of their friends,  would have had no problem whatsoever in concocting a story to account for their absence at the time their daughter sustained an accidental injury which proved fatal or, conversely, to claim one or the other was present, albeit  in another room, when the accident occurred.
Yes, ultimaThule, you have expressed my thoughts.  But there could be other reasons for avoiding an autopsy and they are even worse than the above.  I do say again how sorry I am even to think such thoughts; and only my opinion.  But everything has to be questioned for the sake of the child.
If it's any consolation to you, Searcher, I find it very difficult to get past KM's 'her perfect little genitals torn apart' on p129 of the bewk.

Given that, IMO, the truth is decipherable through analysis of the McCanns' words/statements, I have not discounted the possibility that this image is a true to life account of KM's direct experience of her daughter's body before or after death and this 'unthinkable to many' scenario is contained within the broad spectrum of my definition of 'non-accidental injury'.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Searcher on 06.11.13 19:29

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Searcher wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@Searcher wrote:I worry that, as far as we know, the twins were not checked after the event, or taken to hospital, or given a drug test?  The word 'autopsy' comes into mind a lot and how it might be better to avoid one.  Apologies for saying this; it feels awful to write it and it is only my opinion.
If it's any consolation to you, Searcher, I find it very difficult to get past KM's 'her perfect little genitals torn apart' on p129 of the bewk.

Given that, IMO, the truth is decipherable through analysis of the McCanns' words/statements, I have not discounted the possibility that this image is a true to life account of KM's direct experience of her daughter's body before or after death and this 'unthinkable to many' scenario is contained within the broad spectrum of my definition of 'non-accidental injury'.
With much sadness I have to tell you in all honesty that exactly the same thoughts have registered for me.  I allowed them in but did not want to express them.  Perhaps in some way they have to be included.  The very word you have used was the one I kept out, with difficulty, from my previous post.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Miss Trunchbull on 06.11.13 19:40

Just a small comfort for those feeling bad about having unkind thoughts, but earlier in the week there was a lady on Womans Hour (Radio 4, a station on British radio) talking very calmly about her childhood. 

She was from a middle class professional family who blended easily into the neighborhood, but the nasty little secret was that her parents, their immediate and extended families, friends and colleagues were into video filming paedophile acts. The children were used and abused and encouraged to do the same to each other. Younger children were herded together in one bedroom while one or two were abused in another room. The adults sold the films.

The children didn't realise that they were being abused and exploited - it was all they had known from babyhood.  

It certainly rang chilling alarm bells with me.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Guest on 06.11.13 19:46

Yes there is certainly more to paedophiles than the stereo-typical dirty old men so beloved by the tabloids.

I share your uneasy feelings Miss T.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by MrsC on 06.11.13 19:47

@Miss Trunchbull wrote:Just a small comfort for those feeling bad about having unkind thoughts, but earlier in the week there was a lady on Womans Hour (Radio 4, a station on British radio) talking very calmly about her childhood. 

She was from a middle class professional family who blended easily into the neighborhood, but the nasty little secret was that her parents, their immediate and extended families, friends and colleagues were into video filming paedophile acts. The children were used and abused and encouraged to do the same to each other. Younger children were herded together in one bedroom while one or two were abused in another room. The adults sold the films.

The children didn't realise that they were being abused and exploited - it was all they had known from babyhood.  

It certainly rang chilling alarm bells with me.
How on earth would you broach the subject to friends and colleagues in the first place?

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Post by Smokeandmirrors on 06.11.13 19:50

Your post is very thought provoking, because outside of friends and family, who is in a position to make these awful videos?
Maybe a babysitter, but realistically, who else has free access to the children that end up getting exploited, particularly the very small children.

It is also a mistake to think these things emanate only from the underbelly of society, as people who tell their life story as an adult about horrific abuses come from all walks of life.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Miss Trunchbull on 06.11.13 20:03

@MrsC wrote:How on earth would you broach the subject to friends and colleagues in the first place?
snipped

How indeed? But it is very common, more so than we like to admit. And not always from the underbelly of society as another poster has pointed out.

My SIL works with adoption agencies and she has assured me that abuse is rife in all places. I didn't believe her 10-15 years ago but there has been so much truth uncovered recently that I now would (sadly) believe the worst in anybody.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Guest on 06.11.13 20:06

MrsC, I rather think that these people have coded messages by which they make themselves known to others.

http://ukpaedos-exposed.com/safety-tips-for-parents-children/international-boylove-day-ibld-22nd-june-21-december/paedophile-abbreviations

It does seem to focus though on strangers to be wary of, whereas we are talking about family and friends.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Ochosi on 06.11.13 20:54

I remember reading a lot of info on the Dutroux case in Belgium a while back. Stopped reading after a bit - just too awful. 
They did abduct children (and possibly maybe this was the main reason the ring was uncovered), but it seems a lot of the children were brought to the network by family/close friends of family. 
The network appears to have had members from all walks of life, including aristocracy.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by MrsC on 06.11.13 21:01

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:MrsC, I rather think that these people have coded messages by which they make themselves known to others.

http://ukpaedos-exposed.com/safety-tips-for-parents-children/international-boylove-day-ibld-22nd-june-21-december/paedophile-abbreviations

It does seem to focus though on strangers to be wary of, whereas we are talking about family and friends.
sad Sometimes it would be easier to remain naïve. I had no idea that this is how these people operate.

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solved Re: sleeping children

Post by Hongkong Phooey on 06.11.13 22:04

As I've stated on other threads the McCanns were very keen to get the message out that Paedos had taken Maddie, this was within hours of the alleged abduction. When you add in the Gaspers and Yvonne Martin statements and some of the dubious photos of Maddie (with adult make up or the ice cream cone) its easy to conclude that you can't dismiss this subject.

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