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The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by SixMillionQuid on 06.11.13 13:54

@ Mirage

I hear what you say. I took the circumstances Smiths sightings as the absolute truth and never questioned them at all. It's only recently that I bothered to look at their statements properly and then what they've said in the papers that's left me scratching my head more than usual.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Guest on 06.11.13 14:33

Before going into timing, I'd like to know [because I've never been in Portugal], if maybe the general practice in bars is like in Italy: You go to the cashier, tell them what you want, pay, get a receipt, then proceed to the bar, show your ticket and get your drinks. Anyone know?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by joyce1938 on 06.11.13 14:46

hi chatalin cant spell your name sorry , I have been visiting Portugal trice a year for 7 years,last time 3 qweeks ago we got back after 10 days   we have the odd meal out and the odd bar drinks some days . usually if we are sat outside table ,out comes bar staff and asks what you want ,then it comes to table and we might eat a small snack in a little while ,we might have another drink be it coffee tea or wine ,then when we are ready to leave we ask for bill .now adays it will be a till slip maybe ,7 years ago we often were told price and payed it .no receipt .I think itcan possably be just cash in hand especially in countryside ,who could blame them ,so little money to be made on couple drinks . hope this helps . joyce1938

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Guest on 06.11.13 14:52

Thank you, Joyce :-)
Yes, cash in hand is a possibility too ...
But IF there's a till receipt, it would be interesting to know, if one pays upfront or when leaving after the drinks.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by joyce1938 on 06.11.13 15:02

hI Chatelin,we have usually had to ask for till receipt ,they prefer to leave it so you may want to have another,I cant really recall paying for it upfront at all .If some were kids I cant see them having another drink ,not like adults might,so if a 2nd round was had it would only be about ,well if a small beer 1euroeach maybe be more if spirits .joyce1938

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Sockpuppet on 06.11.13 15:10

@SixMillionQuid wrote:The receipts the PJ obtained several months later, appear to be generated from the records of transactions in cash registers.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

All the available documentation was requested concerning the expenses in the bar on the night of 3rd May 2007 as we were given the cash register from which photocopies were made referring to the period between 20.00 and 24.00, which is annexed to this report.

Signed

Ricardo Paiva

Annexes


And when looking this series of entries
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3278.jpg

one transaction was at 21:50 and the next at 22:16. So if the Smith's had a receipt for 21:55, whether its the final bill or not it should show up between these two times. So if the PJ witheld this info from the released files then how did they erase the entry from this printout and why? Surely by keeping it in the above printout it would go some way to prove the Smiths were right about their timings.
Who has said that the Smiths had a receipt for 21:55?  Apart from people on forums.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by joyce1938 on 06.11.13 15:50

If they  had transaction 21 50,its likely the rest was outside and one payed bill and off they went ,it takes no time at all to do that,especially as some wanted to be home soon early morning flight,only my thoughts on thati can imagine it after not long back from Portugal and being amongst it all I go to Tavira by the way ,never felt I could visit luz but passed by it . joyce1938

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by SixMillionQuid on 06.11.13 17:40

@Sockpuppet wrote:
@SixMillionQuid wrote:The receipts the PJ obtained several months later, appear to be generated from the records of transactions in cash registers.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

All the available documentation was requested concerning the expenses in the bar on the night of 3rd May 2007 as we were given the cash register from which photocopies were made referring to the period between 20.00 and 24.00, which is annexed to this report.

Signed

Ricardo Paiva

Annexes


And when looking this series of entries
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3278.jpg

one transaction was at 21:50 and the next at 22:16. So if the Smith's had a receipt for 21:55, whether its the final bill or not it should show up between these two times. So if the PJ witheld this info from the released files then how did they erase the entry from this printout and why? Surely by keeping it in the above printout it would go some way to prove the Smiths were right about their timings.
Who has said that the Smiths had a receipt for 21:55?  Apart from people on forums.
No where else but a forum that I wont mention.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Rob Royston on 06.11.13 18:03

@SixMillionQuid wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
@Sockpuppet wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Where they his receipts or did the PJ get them from the bar?  I thought it was the latter.  
The PJ got the bar receipts.  I was under the impression people were discussing why Smith didn't keep his receipt.
Ok, thanks.
The receipts the PJ obtained several months later, appear to be generated from the records of transactions in cash registers.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

All the available documentation was requested concerning the expenses in the bar on the night of 3rd May 2007 as we were given the cash register from which photocopies were made referring to the period between 20.00 and 24.00, which is annexed to this report.

Signed

Ricardo Paiva

Annexes


And when looking this series of entries
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3278.jpg

one transaction was at 21:50 and the next at 22:16. So if the Smith's had a receipt for 21:55, whether its the final bill or not it should show up between these two times. So if the PJ witheld this info from the released files then how did they erase the entry from this printout and why? Surely by keeping it in the above printout it would go some way to prove the Smiths were right about their timings.
The till transactions are numbered, so I don't think any have been hidden. There are about four transactions that could have been theirs. It would be quite normal if they paid ten minutes before they departed.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by logical on 06.11.13 19:15

sixmillionquid

What have the Smiths said in the papers?

The Smiths statements havnt changed from day one apart from the additional statement Martin Smith made in January 2008  that is according to the Maddie Case files as far as I know.

No one here has answered a question I raised earlier i.e if you take time to read the official pj files in Maddies case files regarding all the Smiths statements and take into account the FACT that Goncalo Amaral and Pat Brown have never doubted the Smiths statements then why Cant genuine supportors  for Justice for Madeleine here accept the statements for what they are i.e Real Honest and Genuine statements from independent Honest witnesses.

If posters posts are carefully read on this forum its not too hard to seperate the Genuines from the ungenuines iMo.liar

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Grande Finale on 06.11.13 21:24

IMO TB is right, think about it !
The Smith sighting was primarily to state that it wasn't RM they saw.

1)NO there may well have been children being carried in their pyjamas from the Cresh but it wasn't maddie was it ?

2)NO the window wasn't open that night, until the alarm was raised and we all know who opened it ?
Why ?

3)NO there was NOT a man carrying Maddie about in her pyjamas that night, who would want you to think that there may have been ?

Why ?

Think about It !  

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Rob Royston on 06.11.13 22:02

@Mirage wrote:@ Plebgate

Snipped

 When something strikes you and lingers in the mind, it should not be ignored IMO. If, for example, I went to the police and reported a sighting of something suspicious in relation to a known crime, I would expect my statement to be taken in a formal way and sent off to the relevant force. What I would not expect, would be an appraisal of my respected character and standing in the community to accompany that statement. This colours the statement and lends unaccountable weight to someone else's testimony. IMO, that is overstepping the mark.

Well, that's me tuppence worth for now. Thanks again Plebgate. roses
I'm not sure if you are referring to this covering letter that was added to the Statement taken from Mr Smith after he reported how much Gerry McCann reminded him of the man he had seen on the night Madeleine was reported missing.

To me the Sergeant was reporting to his Portuguese colleagues that Mr Smith was being seriously harassed by both the Press and Mr Brian Kennedy and felt obliged to include a character reference and his opinion that Mr Smith was being truthful.


"Detective Branch
Drogheda
County Lough

Re – Investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann

I took an additional statement from Mr Smith as requested. His wife does not want to make another statement. I showed him the video clip and he stated that it was not the clip that alerted him but the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007.

He has been contacted by numerous tabloid press looking for stories. He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits. He sent a solicitor's letter to six papers in relation material that was printed that was misquoted. The Evening Herald paid his solicitor's fees and all papers printed an apology. His photograph appeared in another tabloid paper and this matter is being pursued at the moment.

I do not believe that Martin Smith is courting the press and my view his is a genuine person. He is known locally and is a very decent person.

Forwarded please

Sergeant

Liam Hogan"

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Guest on 06.11.13 22:21

@Rob Royston wrote:[ [...]

To me the Sergeant was reporting to his Portuguese colleagues that Mr Smith was being seriously harassed by both the Press and Mr Brian Kennedy and felt obliged to include a character reference and his opinion that Mr Smith was being truthful.  
***
I agree. There's nothing suspicious about that.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by plebgate on 06.11.13 22:22

@Mirage   ---   thumbup

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Grande Finale on 06.11.13 23:24

Châtelaine wrote:Before going into timing, I'd like to know [because I've never been in Portugal], if maybe the general practice in bars is like in Italy: You go to the cashier, tell them what you want, pay, get a receipt, then proceed to the bar, show your ticket and get your drinks. Anyone know?
@Chateleine
The till receipts used to be handed to you on small dish each time you order, then you add them up and leave the cash (Plus big tip ) as you are leaving...

Anyhow the Smith sighting was primarily to state that it wasn't RM they saw.

There may well have been children being carried in their pyjamas from the Cresh but it wasn't Maddie was it ?

WHO gains by making people think it might have been ?

In six years there has been NO evidence whatsoever of an abduction, and as a top policeman stated NO clear evidence to say that the parents were not involved in her disappearance.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by boo boos on 07.11.13 2:56

Amaral says around 21.55pm in his book.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by sami on 07.11.13 7:18

@Grande Finale wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:Before going into timing, I'd like to know [because I've never been in Portugal], if maybe the general practice in bars is like in Italy: You go to the cashier, tell them what you want, pay, get a receipt, then proceed to the bar, show your ticket and get your drinks. Anyone know?
@Chateleine
The till receipts used to be handed to you on small dish each time you order, then you add them up and leave the cash (Plus big tip ) as you are leaving...

Anyhow the Smith sighting was primarily to state that it wasn't RM they saw.

There may well have been children being carried in their pyjamas from the Cresh but it wasn't Maddie was it ?

WHO gains by making people think it might have been ?

In six years there has been NO evidence whatsoever of an abduction, and as a top policeman stated NO clear evidence to say that the parents were not involved in her disappearance.
Grand finale, you cannot state with certainty the sighting was to support Murat - when was that established ?  We cannot see the questions asked of witnesses, so IMO its impossible to be certain how Murat came into the picture.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by ProfessorPPlum on 07.11.13 9:05

Smiths saw someone. Newspapers and Brian Kennedy on his case. Each has a reason to be interested in this sighting. Newspapers because it's money. Kennedy because the McCanns need to know. It they're in 'innocent' because they want to follow up any sighting. If they're guilty because they need to know what was seen and how they can use it (even if it they knew it wasn't Gerry).

Imagine this:

Imagine the McCanns are guilty but its not pre-planned but done in a panic night of May 3rd. The first thing they would do is invent the abduction story plus a sighting to get people looking outwards. Over the next few days they harden up that story.

Then a report comes out that the Smiths think they saw someone that night. Lets say you KNOW it wasn't Gerry (because he went some other way carrying a bag). What do you do with this sighting? You send your man in to find out more. 

The you discover that what the Smiths think they saw - far from being the truth - in fact reads like it bears OUT Tanner's invented man more than it contradicts it. What do you do? You try to add the. Together. I kind of agree with Tony - I'm not sure they DID in any serious way cover up this 'sighting'. What they covered up was the idea that all the evidence pointed more at THEM than at anyone else which Oakley's report is alleged to have concluded. 

As Tony says, there is clear evidence that the McCanns in fact DID try to combine these two sightings together. The motive? To bolster up the concept of 'abduction' at the expense of credulity.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by BRODFB on 07.11.13 10:03

@ProfessorPPlum wrote:snip

Then a report comes out that the Smiths think they saw someone that night. Lets say you KNOW it wasn't Gerry (because he went some other way carrying a bag). What do you do with this sighting? You send your man in to find out more. 

snip
On a tangent, in a crime a bag could be used to dispose of all sorts of contaminated items such as cloths, cleaning stuff etc. And once used would be contaminated and have to be disposed of.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by galena on 07.11.13 18:45

@Woofer wrote:
@galena wrote:That's very true.  The PJ at the time concluded that Gerry had an alibi for the time when the Smith's spotted the man, that dozens of people could vouch for his whereabouts at that time.  You certainly can't really ascertain his whereabouts from the information we have available so presumably they have witness statements we haven't seen?
Galena - can you give a reference for the dozens (that`s over 24) of people that vouched for his whereabouts and whether they were independent of the T7?
Apologies Woofer - not had time to look over the last day or so. Afraid I can't find the reference to the dozens in the actual PJ report   - I must have picked that up from somewhere else, perhaps a pro-McCann newspaper article.  What  it actually says in the final report with regard to Smith's identification of GM as  Smithman is this

It was established that at the time that was being mentioned, GERALD McCANN was sitting at the table, in the Tapas Restaurant.'

GA seemed to doubt this though but was presumably taken off the case before he could look into it properly.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by SixMillionQuid on 07.11.13 19:15

@logical wrote:sixmillionquid

What have the Smiths said in the papers?

The Smiths statements havnt changed from day one apart from the additional statement Martin Smith made in January 2008  that is according to the Maddie Case files as far as I know.

No one here has answered a question I raised earlier i.e if you take time to read the official pj files in Maddies case files regarding all the Smiths statements and take into account the FACT that Goncalo Amaral and Pat Brown have never doubted the Smiths statements then why Cant genuine supportors  for Justice for Madeleine here accept the statements for what they are i.e Real Honest and Genuine statements from independent Honest witnesses.

If posters posts are carefully read on this forum its not too hard to seperate the Genuines from the ungenuines iMo.liar
The Smith statements and can be seen here
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Policia Judiciaria

NUIPC 201-070 GALGS

NOTE

On this date I state for the files that at about 12.12 I had telephone contact with the witness Martin Smith, by means of phone number ********* who referred to the communication he made on 20-09-2007 to the British authorities, that confirms his sighting and showing his full availability to travel to Portugal with the aim of making statements and collaborating with this police in all the diligences that could be considered necessary concerning these events.

Portimao, 27th September 2007

Signed

Inspector Paiva


From paper edition of Daily Mail Jan 2008 quoting the Mr Smith
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

[color:7c43=000000]"We have not been contacted by the private detective hired by the McCanns, and have had no contact with the investigating police since May 26 last year...."

Well [color:7c43=000000]Inspector Paiva thinks he was speaking to Mr Smith on 27th September 2007. Why did Mr Smith make this claim?
[color:7c43=000000][color:7c43=000000]And by the 30 January 2008 the [color:7c43=000000]Po[color:7c43=000000]rtugeuse police were aware he [color:7c43=000000]had been [color:7c43=000000]contacted by the media and B[color:7c43=000000]rian K[color:7c43=000000]ennedy. Around this time he still believed it was GM he saw he made additional statement to that effect on 30 January 2008. Now he says it wasn't GM he saw. It looks like he was mistaken, just like Jane Tanner. But I dont know why he thought it was definately GM just on the basis of the way he carried a child. Was there something else that Mr Smith has not disclosed that caused him to think it was GM? I think so, but he hasn't said what it was.

EDIT dont know whats up with the formatting.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by TheTruthWillOut on 07.11.13 19:23

Keeping things as simple as possible, a scenario (feel free to shoot it down in flames!big grin ):

A male "Tapas" member decides they require a sighting and takes a child at around 10PM and bumps into the Smith family. Later after he gets back he either arranges the Tanner sighting or Tanner announces it to some members (whether invented or not) and he decides to use the Tanner sighting to debunk the Smith sighting.

Like I say.....probably full of holes, but I try.big grin

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by galena on 07.11.13 19:45

@Grande Finale wrote:IMO TB is right, think about it !
The Smith sighting was primarily to state that it wasn't RM they saw.

1)NO there may well have been children being carried in their pyjamas from the Cresh but it wasn't maddie was it ?

2)NO the window wasn't open that night, until the alarm was raised and we all know who opened it ?
Why ?

3)NO there was NOT a man carrying Maddie about in her pyjamas that night, who would want you to think that there may have been ?

Why ?

Think about It !  
I find the story of the Smith sighting credible up to this point. (Martin Smith recalls how despite the resort being buzzing with the abduction story he never makes the connection between the small blonde girl who has gone missing and the unfriendly single male carrying a small girl around at 10pm at night).

"We were home two weeks when my son rang up and asked was he dreaming or did we meet a man carrying a child the night Madeleine was taken. We all remembered that we had the same recollection. I felt we should report it to the police"

That sentence sticks out like a sore thumb.  Two things had happened by this time - the Tannerman sighting had been released and Murat was under suspicion. It is absolutely certain in my mind - that this is what prompted the Smiths to finally contact the PJ.  Maybe they did see something (though I suspect in nothing like the detail they described), maybe Smith got a call from Murat complaining that  the Tapas people were trying to set him up and desperately asking for an alibi.

Remember they already had the Tannerman sighting as a template to go on, all that was needed was to change the hair colour from dark to brown. 

Many accept readily that Gerry could persuade Jane to give him an alibi by constructing 'Tannerman'.  Murat by all accounts was a bit of fixer, a guy who knew everybody - the 'Dauphin' of PDL - wouldn't it be likely that he would also be able to find someone to give him an alibi at a time when  he was regarded as a potential paedophile and murderer?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by thetruthbeknown on 07.11.13 20:10

@galena wrote:I find the story of the Smith sighting credible up to this point. (Martin Smith recalls how despite the resort being buzzing with the abduction story he never makes the connection between the small blonde girl who has gone missing and the unfriendly single male carrying a small girl around at 10pm at night).

"We were home two weeks when my son rang up and asked was he dreaming or did we meet a man carrying a child the night Madeleine was taken. We all remembered that we had the same recollection. I felt we should report it to the police"

That sentence sticks out like a sore thumb.  Two things had happened by this time - the Tannerman sighting had been released and Murat was under suspicion. It is absolutely certain in my mind - that this is what prompted the Smiths to finally contact the PJ.  Maybe they did see something (though I suspect in nothing like the detail they described), maybe Smith got a call from Murat complaining that  the Tapas people were trying to set him up and desperately asking for an alibi.

Remember they already had the Tannerman sighting as a template to go on, all that was needed was to change the hair colour from dark to brown. 

Many accept readily that Gerry could persuade Jane to give him an alibi by constructing 'Tannerman'.  Murat by all accounts was a bit of fixer, a guy who knew everybody - the 'Dauphin' of PDL - wouldn't it be likely that he would also be able to find someone to give him an alibi at a time when  he was regarded as a potential paedophile and murderer?
He only came forward after murat was made arguido..Its quite possible that as he hadnt seen the person full on, and didnt think he could identify the person, that he may of thought his sighting of not much worth, hence not coming forward straight away..however he would know it wasnt Murat, he was a person he knew already, he came forward to make sure the police knew that if the person he saw (although unfamilar, and unable to identify) It wasnt Murat, he most definately would of recognised, but the person he saw was a stranger to him. That was his purpose. However he did say a little later that he saw GM and it triggered some kind of recollection..but as he said in his statement that he could not identify the person, its unlikely that could be used as anything useful without backing of other witnesses that collaborate that?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by chillyheat on 07.11.13 20:20

I would appreciate if you could read this thread. I don't think its getting enough attention. It will take about 10 mins to read. Im sorry for jumping in, but where the thread is, I don't think its getting to many views. Thanks all.....I believe its significant.


http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t4530-new-photo-clue-to-madeleine-mccann-case

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