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The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by soundworks on 08.11.13 8:33

so if the smith sighting is false / somebody else , what does it mean for the mccanns? And why would they hide the info for 5 years?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 08.11.13 8:43

@soundworks wrote:so if the smith sighting is false / somebody else , what does it mean for the mccanns? And why would they hide the info for 5 years?
One of the things this means for the McCanns is that if this sighting did not exist, it further casts doubt over whether this was an abduction. Their own account of the evening is far from "concrete" with well documented changes in Gerry's statements of the 4th and 10th of May. There is no independent witness outside of the Tapas group who can provide any EXACT information, it is all unsubstantiated - at least NONE of it would stand up as FACT in a court of law. As it is, ALL of the information that we have in the public domain is mere background noise.

Obviously, in the portion of the files that were NOT released to the public and remain secret at this point in time, there MAY be something of substance that can be qualified as FACT, but as it stands NONE of it fulfils that criteria yet. NONE of the witness statements hang together tightly enough to remove reasonable doubt. Hence 6 1/2 years of continuous debate and extremely vague and contradictory information forming the basis of the case.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by dunn on 08.11.13 9:08

@Tony Bennet and 'admin'

"Two of the most obvious new joiners, 'Sockpuppet' and 'StraightThinking', who joined wholly or mainly to promote the Smith sighting, have at last been banned by Admin. I was very rude and sarcastic towards them because they were the most obvious trolls."

Tony, I admire, greatly, your personal and professional achievments with regard to this case. I have no issue with you voicing your vast experience and knowledge; your opinions are always welcome to me regarding any aspect of it. However, the above is utterly disappointing for me - I see this banning as a simple dislike to the stance and challenges these users took against you and 'admin.' on a point of view. Result: You making a call to label them 'trolls' and cut off their voice. I recall many of their posts and would not consider them threatening to the belief system here -In my view the level of paranoia on this forum has unfortunately become its face.

 have researched this case since Kate went jogging on day 3, I know much, but not everything, so I joined up to share with like minded people - what I have found, amongst some very good and genuine posters, are a greater number of those wishing to dictate and direct. This does not interest me and I have now chosen to deactivate and leave. I feel you have unfortunately become the very establishment you despise.

I know still that we are all seeking justice. And with that, I wish you luck.

Thanks and Bye.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.11.13 9:15

@soundworks wrote:So if the smith sighting is false / somebody else , what does it mean for the mccanns? And why would they hide the info for 5 years?
I cannot believe you wrote that.

Time after time after time on the 'Smithman' threads I have exposed this remarkably persistent myth by pointing out:

1. The McCann Team explicitly mentioned Smithman in a documentary, the contents of which they controlled, broadcast by Channel 4/Mentorn Media in May 2009  

2. Dr Kate McCann in her book, 'madeleine', devoted FIVE PAGES to it, linking Smithman to Tannerman and suggesting they were one and the same individual, including a passage saying that the two 'sightings' were, quote Dr K McCann, 'STRIKINGLY SIMILAR'*, and

3. Made use of Smithman on their website, findmadeleine.com    


+++++++++++++++++

* and as I've pointed out, one description of both Tannerman and Smithman was that they 'did not look like a tourist' - a vague, meaningless and indeed absurd description IMO

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.11.13 9:20

GPD wrote:In my view the level of paranoia on this forum has unfortunately become its face...I joined up to share with like minded people - what I have found, amongst some very good and genuine posters, are a greater number of those wishing to dictate and direct. This does not interest me and I have now chosen to deactivate and leave...Bye.
So short a time you have been a member...did you not realise how paranoid, dictatorial and directive we had become before you joined?

Only just found that out?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Guest on 08.11.13 9:21

@Tony Bennett wrote:
Using the Smiths' own descriptions, please explain exactly what it was about wearing a dark jacket and light-coloured trousers that makes Martin Smith say; 'not a tourist'.
It's the use of that phrase "when urged" that I find very odd. But I did say in another thread that Luz seems like something of an "enclave" - that is, by far the greater bulk of residents seem to be either MW guests or various overseas expats. So tourist was probably a poor choice of word in the first place; if you were trying to make a distinction you might try to pin it down between, say, native and holidaymaker - with the difference being expressed much more with purpose of movement, apparent familiarity with the location etc. rather than manner of dress.

Despite being a newcomer here I have studied this case for a long time and only in the last few days have I had similar doubts about two things - the extent of the apparent neglect, and the significance of the Smith sighting.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by NickE on 08.11.13 9:23

If Maddie was alive when she was found Gerry could have taken her to 24h Doctor below were they met the Smith's,but because Maddie was dead before they arrive GM had to leave Maddie temporarily somewhere.
Was the church open  that time?
Any news about GM's deleted phone calls?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by soundworks on 08.11.13 9:39

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@soundworks wrote:So if the smith sighting is false / somebody else , what does it mean for the mccanns? And why would they hide the info for 5 years?
I cannot believe you wrote that.

Time after time after time on the 'Smithman' threads I have exposed this remarkably persistent myth by pointing out:

1. The McCann Team explicitly mentioned Smithman in a documentary, the contents of which they controlled, broadcast by Channel 4/Mentorn Media in May 2009  

2. Dr Kate McCann in her book, 'madeleine', devoted FIVE PAGES to it, linking Smithman to Tannerman and suggesting they were one and the same individual, including a passage saying that the two 'sightings' were, quote Dr K McCann, 'STRIKINGLY SIMILAR'*, and

3. Made use of Smithman on their website, findmadeleine.com    


+++++++++++++++++

* and as I've pointed out, one description of both Tannerman and Smithman was that they 'did not look like a tourist' - a vague, meaningless and indeed absurd description IMO
yea they may have mentioned smithman (in the least minimum amount) but why didn't they ever push this sighting like the tannerman and why not release the efits ( which didn't look anything like the tannerman) so to me that they wanted the public to think they were the same person to rule out that smithman was Gerry

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Guest on 08.11.13 9:44

@Watching The Detectives wrote:Just curious: Is there a reason why some posters on this thread (e.g. Tony Bennett and Candyfloss) do not appear in the list of who's online or has been connected during the past 24hrs?

Apologies if the answer is obvious......or if I should have gone to Specsavers....
At the moment if you look on the portal page to see who is online, there are 5 hidden, meaning that their names do not appear on the list. You can do this if you want by going to preferences on your profile and ticking "hide my online status".

Don't book yourself into Specsavers yet!

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by russiandoll on 08.11.13 9:55

Sockpuppet and Straightthinking have been banned..."at last" was the comment in the post containing this information
 What were the reasons for this? The forum welcomes diverse opinion and free speech, the posts which I read of theirs were neither abusive nor potentially libellous, unless I have missed such posts, they broke some other forum rules?

It surely can't be because of their attempts to argue the credibility of the Smith sighting? This is not classed as trolling, surely, when it is a massively important issue in the light of the CW programme? I  didn't need persuading that this was Gerry McCann, I have believed this for over a year.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by T4two on 08.11.13 9:57

Is it not interesting that Cape Verde man appeared on the scene after Smithman's dramatic reappearance in the Scotland Yard inspired Crimewatch  programme, thus successfully directing media attention away from the Smithman story, which was being given extensive coverage in the UK media following the 'revelations' in that programme? The Cape Verde man story is ostensibly based on a leak from the Portuguese police, but it would not be the first time that the TM PR machine had leaked information through a friendly Portuguese newspaper and blamed the Portuguese police for the leak. If the Cape Verde story was indeed leaked by the Portuguese police, then the question arises as to why they would leak this information and provide a distraction from the Smithman story for TM's PR machine to exploit? If however the Cape Verde man leak is a red herring eminating from the TM PR machine, then this would suggest that the Smithman sighting is something TM would now like to bury. Perhaps  since they no longer have the possibility to link Smithman with the now defunct Tannerman, Smithman has to go too?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.11.13 9:58

@soundworks wrote:
yea they may have mentioned smithman (in the least minimum amount) but why didn't they ever push this sighting like the tannerman

'The least minimum'? You are trying to minimise the obvious fact that the McCanns have deliberately promoted this 'sighting'. How can you say 'they never pushed this sighting like Tannerman when:

1. They take FIVE PAGES of a book read by tens or hundreds of thousands to say 'Tannerman and Smithman are the same'

AND

2. Promote Smithman on their website, viewed by hundreds of thousands a year.

I simply fail to understand why so many on this thread (like yourself in your previous post) carry on claiming, AGAINST ALL THE EVIDENCE, that the McCanns have somehow 'suppressed' this 'sighting

and why not release the efits (which didn't look anything like the tannerman)

Point 1: In what way do the Smithman efits not look like Tannerman?  Jane Tanner never saw Tannerman's face and the artist's sketch released by the McCanns OVER FIVE AND HALF MONTHS LATER didn't show us a face. 

Point 2: I think it's established that these two efits were produced in 2008, and that the McCanns, for whatever reason, did not release them (if the Sunday Times is right). And now, Redwood has. However, again to repeat myself, we still have these unanswered:- questions about the efits:

A. On whose recollections were they based?

B. If based on any of the Smiths' recollections (as now claimed by Redwood), how come they could produce any efits if none of them ever saw his face?

C. Why are there two e-fits of blokes who look completely different? Are they really supposed to be the same man?

D. When were the Smiths contacted/visited by Brian Kennedy?

E. When did the McCanns'/Kennedy's private investigators visit the Smiths?

F. Were both or either of these efits based on the Smiths' recollections?

G. If not, on whose recollections were they based?

H. When were the efits drawn up?

I. Who drew them up?

J. Is it right, as one poster has suggested, that the two efits were produced using two different computer programs?

K. When were the efits given to the McCann Team?

I. Why, if the Sunday Times report is correct, did the McCann Team suppress them?

M. When did Redwood meet the Smiths?

N. When did Redwood approve these two different efits as the ones he wanted the public to focus on?

 
 


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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.11.13 10:01

@T4two wrote:Is it not interesting that Cape Verde man appeared on the scene after Smithman's dramatic reappearance in the Scotland Yard inspired Crimewatch  programme, thus successfully directing media attention away from the Smithman story, which was being given extensive coverage in the UK media following the 'revelations' in that programme? The Cape Verde man story is ostensibly based on a leak from the Portuguese police, but it would not be the first time that the TM PR machine had leaked information through a friendly Portuguese newspaper and blamed the Portuguese police for the leak. If the Cape Verde story was indeed leaked by the Portuguese police, then the question arises as to why they would leak this information and provide a distraction from the Smithman story for TM's PR machine to exploit? If however the Cape Verde man leak is a red herring emanating from the TM PR machine, then this would suggest that the Smithman sighting is something TM would now like to bury. Perhaps since they no longer have the possibility to link Smithman with the now defunct Tannerman, Smithman has to go too?
I think there is much in your line of thinking, but a very dark brown-faced man from the Cape Verde islands isn't actually going to help to 'bury' the Smith sighting.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by russiandoll on 08.11.13 10:10

Any answers to my q about why 2 new members have been banned? I have re read Sockpuppet's posts, see no abuse or rudeness to others although I see he was referred to as Professor Sockpuppet and his posts were described as a comedy.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by PennyX on 08.11.13 10:11

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@T4two wrote:Is it not interesting that Cape Verde man appeared on the scene after Smithman's dramatic reappearance in the Scotland Yard inspired Crimewatch  programme, thus successfully directing media attention away from the Smithman story, which was being given extensive coverage in the UK media following the 'revelations' in that programme? The Cape Verde man story is ostensibly based on a leak from the Portuguese police, but it would not be the first time that the TM PR machine had leaked information through a friendly Portuguese newspaper and blamed the Portuguese police for the leak. If the Cape Verde story was indeed leaked by the Portuguese police, then the question arises as to why they would leak this information and provide a distraction from the Smithman story for TM's PR machine to exploit? If however the Cape Verde man leak is a red herring emanating from the TM PR machine, then this would suggest that the Smithman sighting is something TM would now like to bury. Perhaps since they no longer have the possibility to link Smithman with the now defunct Tannerman, Smithman has to go too?
I think there is much in your line of thinking, but a very dark brown-faced man from the Cape Verde islands isn't actually going to help to 'bury' the Smith sighting.
I admire Mr Bennett for his past actions. I do feel however this "latest" campaign is totally without foundation and more a means for a Bennett sound-off. Perhaps his day has gone and perhaps he should retire from these postings. Question upon question based on dubious hearsay doesn't make a fact. I am surprised and a little sad.

Penny



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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by galena on 08.11.13 10:14

@thetruthbeknown wrote:
@galena wrote:I find the story of the Smith sighting credible up to this point. (Martin Smith recalls how despite the resort being buzzing with the abduction story he never makes the connection between the small blonde girl who has gone missing and the unfriendly single male carrying a small girl around at 10pm at night).

"We were home two weeks when my son rang up and asked was he dreaming or did we meet a man carrying a child the night Madeleine was taken. We all remembered that we had the same recollection. I felt we should report it to the police"

That sentence sticks out like a sore thumb.  Two things had happened by this time - the Tannerman sighting had been released and Murat was under suspicion. It is absolutely certain in my mind - that this is what prompted the Smiths to finally contact the PJ.  Maybe they did see something (though I suspect in nothing like the detail they described), maybe Smith got a call from Murat complaining that  the Tapas people were trying to set him up and desperately asking for an alibi.

Remember they already had the Tannerman sighting as a template to go on, all that was needed was to change the hair colour from dark to brown. 

Many accept readily that Gerry could persuade Jane to give him an alibi by constructing 'Tannerman'.  Murat by all accounts was a bit of fixer, a guy who knew everybody - the 'Dauphin' of PDL - wouldn't it be likely that he would also be able to find someone to give him an alibi at a time when  he was regarded as a potential paedophile and murderer?
He only came forward after murat was made arguido..Its quite possible that as he hadnt seen the person full on, and didnt think he could identify the person, that he may of thought his sighting of not much worth, hence not coming forward straight away..however he would know it wasnt Murat, he was a person he knew already, he came forward to make sure the police knew that if the person he saw (although unfamilar, and unable to identify) It wasnt Murat, he most definately would of recognised, but the person he saw was a stranger to him. That was his purpose. However he did say a little later that he saw GM and it triggered some kind of recollection..but as he said in his statement that he could not identify the person, its unlikely that could be used as anything useful without backing of other witnesses that collaborate that?
One thing I am certain of is - whether the Smith family did meet the man they described they certainly were influenced by the description of Tannerman as released by the media. It seems natural to me that if you only got a glimpse of a stranger in the dark,  whom you later thought might have been the same man Tanner described, then you would be likely to fill in the blanks with the description she gave - whether consciously or unconsiously.  I do doubt anyone in the family would be able to give a coherent description of a stranger glimpsed briefly on a dark street a couple of weeks later - especially bearing in mind that - by their own account - they weren't paying much attention no doubt focused on their own concerns.

One thing they could be certain of is that it wasn't Murat - that much is clear.  As you say that could well be the reason that they came forward with the evidence a couple of weeks later - but  I simply don't accept they didn't make the connection - if they did see the man I suspect they discussed their suspicions and decided they didn't want to go to the police - perhaps they just didn't want to get involved - but later when a man they knew was suspected they decided they had to speak up.  It could definitely have happened that way

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Guest on 08.11.13 10:22


One thing they could be certain of is that it wasn't Murat - that much is clear.  As you say that could well be the reason that they came forward with the evidence a couple of weeks later - but  I simply don't accept they didn't make the connection - if they did see the man I suspect they discussed their suspicions and decided they didn't want to go to the police - perhaps they just didn't want to get involved - but later when a man they knew was suspected they decided they had to speak up.  It could definitely have happened that way
I think this is one area where Mr. Amaral's book is not helpful. If the Crimewatch e-fits had come out of a vacuum that would have been one thing, however they got people who had previously only known about the case through what they had read in the MSM googling, finding the previous discussion of the Smith sighting, and thinking they had found the "smoking gun". Useful in the sense of building a critical mass of people willing to question the "official" version of events, perhaps not so useful in terms of getting to the facts.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by unchained melody on 08.11.13 10:28

@russiandoll wrote:Any answers to my q about why 2 new members have been banned? I have re read Sockpuppet's posts, see no abuse or rudeness to others although I see he was referred to as Professor Sockpuppet and his posts were described as a comedy.
Hi russiandoll.

The very name Sockpuppet implies misdirection on forums and was either a stupid choice of name or an
arrogant statement of his/her intentions when joining

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The time of the Smith sighting

Post by RIPM on 08.11.13 10:28

IMO The Smithman sighting is greatly in dispute for one main reason.  The timing of around 21.55 and Gerry supposedly being elsewhere at that time.
  But if you can accept Madeleine may have been discovered earlier at around 21.35/40 and there is evidence to support this, Gerry moving through the streets  with a child towards the beach is a very strong possibility and fits the simple uncluttered version of events.
Not a certainty but a high probability  it was him and we need to keep an open mind into the fact you should not believe everything said by the McCanns.
Why do we dismiss the timings of witnesses like the Smiths and accept the 'honesty' of the Macs and the gang?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by soundworks on 08.11.13 10:32

wow my head is banging ! Been a long time lurker on here and this case gets more complicated!

I can't believe that a whole family of smiths have reason to lie( especially making children lie)

I just feel all the arguing and sniping on here is uncalled for especially as none of us know the truth

after reading most of tonys post I agreed with a lot of things he has said but I don't agree with him on the smith sighting as I believe smith did see somebody ( tony obviously knows more because he said he has info that is not in the public domain - I just hope this info is not from the mccanns and tony has turned)

nobody is right and nobody is wrong as it is all speculation especially as we are only privy to part of the evidence

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by unchained melody on 08.11.13 10:34

@ T4two

I also agree that along with Tannerman, Smithman must also be ignored - too much confusion to warrant
all this over-analysis

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Guest on 08.11.13 10:41

@RIPM wrote:IMO The Smithman sighting is greatly in dispute for one main reason.  The timing of around 21.55 and Gerry supposedly being elsewhere at that time.
  But if you can accept Madeleine may have been discovered earlier at around 21.35/40 and there is evidence to support this, Gerry moving through the streets  with a child towards the beach is a very strong possibility and fits the simple uncluttered version of events.
Not a certainty but a high probability  it was him and we need to keep an open mind into the fact you should not believe everything said by the McCanns.
Why do we dismiss the timings of witnesses like the Smiths and accept the 'honesty' of the Macs and the gang?
I don't doubt it's possible for GMc to have been there at the time in question. I'm just not sure you can assume that to be the case purely from the facts as we have them. I am completely sure though that you can recognise somebody entirely by their gait alone, although maybe not on the basis of one previous brief sighting.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by MaryB on 08.11.13 10:48

I agree with keeping an open mind.  And that's what the investigators should be doing too.  Nobody here knows what happened that night.  They may think they do and may even be right.  But the point is we don't know so it's a bit daft to say to one person oh that's nonsense the Smith's didn't see anyone.  Because we don't know who the Smith's saw.  We might have a strong opinion on who they saw or if they saw anything but nobody knows.  I have always thought the Smith sighting very credible and it annoyed me it never seemed to be promoted much.  I wonder if they have identified the two men who seemed to be arguing or talking in loud voices.  They were mentioned on Crimewatch.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Cristobell on 08.11.13 10:52

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:
Wendy Murphy was not buying the circus that surrounds the investigation of this case Tony, she did not say anything about the Smith family sighting being fake.
Cristobell, either you never saw the Wendy Murphy interview on Fox News, OR you've already forgotten what she said.

A reminder:

Wendy Murphy

WM: Tere, er, in my opinion is no new suspect and there never will be a new suspect unless and until the parents answer questions.

Remember - Kate McCann, poor Madeleine’s Mum, refused to answer 48 questions -

Presenter: Er, Wendy…

WM: Now they hired a team of lawyers right away

Presenter: Wendy...
 
WM: Ah, but this is important, she refused to anser – she hired lawyers straightaway. She refuses to answer 48 questions, things like: ‘What did you see when you walked into the room where your child was supposed to be sleeping?’  I mean, I’m so not interested in being dragged down a rabbit hole about a fake suspect.
Yes, I did see the interview Tony, in fact I took it to twitter and my memory is fine thank you.

As you know, all statements are open to interpretation, and you have interpreted what she said to suit your theory.  Her reply was generic - how many fake suspects have there been over the years?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by russiandoll on 08.11.13 10:56

Why are you being so insulting, now to Cristobell, Tony?  I can't believe this is you using this tone in your responses !

____________________



             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


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