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The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Guest on 07.11.13 23:20

http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/fantastical-theories-and-disappearance.html

I'm still very undecided on the value of the Smiths' testimony; they may be mistaken but I certainly would never accuse them of making it up.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by logical on 07.11.13 23:27

Tony
I go to Spain regularly A tourist looking person to me can be a man wearing shorts ,beer belly white socks in sandals and many more discriptions.
A local  normally wears long trousers looks native and wears appropriate clothing to suit any given weather.

As Ive mentioned my regular visits to Spain I can spot  Most foreigners from locals any time of the year.

Martin Smith is a regular visitor to Portugal and going by my own experience Im sure he can spot the locals from foreigners also.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by MarleneP on 07.11.13 23:27

I understand Tony Bennett. The Crime Watch program has changed everything for me. This case is full of mystery and I am surprised that there are writers who write there for years, but can still say:
a whole family (Smith) does not lie
but they are convinced that McCann family is lying and almost all tapas lie.
So it surprise me that someone writes: Tapas 9 may not have known at the dinner at the tapas bar that Madeleine was dead, that would be inhumane.
But they are convinced that Tapas 9 for years lie in public, raising money for a dead child, etc. - This I find inhumane.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Tony Bennett on 07.11.13 23:35

@russiandoll wrote: Are you trying to drive people away?
It seems I am having precisely the opposite effect.

The 'Smithman' threads have proved exceptionally popular, bringing in a wave of new members only too anxious to insist that the Smiths really did see a bloke 'not looking like a tourist' and then capable of supplying DCI Redwood and his merry crew with not one but TWO efits of entirely different blokes whose face(s) they never saw in the dark.

I wonder why they've been so keen to join in the discussion?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Tony Bennett on 07.11.13 23:41

@logical wrote:Tony

I go to Spain regularly.

A tourist looking person to me can be a man wearing shorts, beer belly, white socks in sandals and many more descriptions.

A local normally wears long trousers looks native and wears appropriate clothing to suit any given weather.


As I've mentioned...my regular visits to Spain...I can spot most foreigners from locals any time of the year.

Martin Smith is a regular visitor to Portugal and going by my own experience Im sure he can spot the locals from foreigners also.
Judging by what you've said above (highlighted), Smithman (if genuine), fits your description of 'local' much better than 'tourist'. 

Because he wasn't wearing shorts, didn't have a beer belly, didn't have white socks and wasn't wearing sandals? (the four lead indicators you give for not looking like a tourist).

All we know about his clothing is: dark jacket and light-coloured trousers (two more 'coincidences' between Tannerman and Smithman).

Well, does that put him into the 'tourist' or 'non-tourist' category.

Honestly - do you not yet see how ridiculous the description 'not like a tourist' is?

What value does in have in assisting the police or the public to identify someone?

I will answer my own question.

None whatsoever.  

Yet both Jane Tanner and Martin Smith use it.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by littlepixie on 08.11.13 0:26

I haven't got a clue whether the Smiths are genuine or not. I don't know them, the McCanns or Robert Murat. 
None of these people are our friends so there is nothing wrong with questioning their testimony when discrepancies or similarities occur.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by BRODFB on 08.11.13 0:42

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@russiandoll wrote: Are you trying to drive people away?
It seems I am having precisely the opposite effect.

The 'Smithman' threads have proved exceptionally popular, bringing in a wave of new members only too anxious to insist that the Smiths really did see a bloke 'not looking like a tourist' and then capable of supplying DCI Redwood and his merry crew with not one but TWO efits of entirely different blokes whose face(s) they never saw in the dark.

I wonder why they've been so keen to join in the discussion?
So anyone who doesn't share your theory is a McCann supporter? aaaah

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Okeydokey on 08.11.13 1:03

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@TheTruthWillOut wrote:Keeping things as simple as possible, a scenario (feel free to shoot it down in flames!big grin ):

A male "Tapas" member decides they require a sighting and takes a child at around 10PM and bumps into the Smith family. Later after he gets back he either arranges the Tanner sighting or Tanner announces it to some members (whether invented or not) and he decides to use the Tanner sighting to debunk the Smith sighting.

Like I say.....probably full of holes, but I try.big grin
Well, have you worked this one out in your scenario?

Your male 'Tapas' member, having bumped into the Smith family, to quote you: "either arranges the Tanner sighting or Tanner announces it to some members".

The next day, Tanner describes this man and tells the police: "He didn't look like a tourist" - a highly unusual and extremely vague description if ever there was one.

(Not one person on any of the 'Smithman' threads has yet been able to suggest what a tourist looks like and a non-tourist looks like on a cold dark evening in Praia da Luz).   

Now, how does one account for the fact that, on 26 May, Smith uses an almost identical, unusual, vague description? - "He didn't look like a tourist".

I suggest four possibilities:

1) it was just a massive coincidence 

2) there was a bloke wandering around the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold May evening in the dark carrying a blonde girl in pyjamas and barefoot who for some reason 'didn't look like a tourist'

3) there were TWO blokes wandering arouind the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold May evening in the dark carrying a blonde girl in pyjamas and barefoot who for some reason 'didn't look like tourists'

OR

4) the Smith family made the whole 'sighting' up and in doing so relied on knowledge of Jane Tanner's description.     
 
Another possibility is that the Portugese ask that as a standard question of both Portugese and holidaymakers when investigating crimes. So you will get the answer either, yes or no.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Okeydokey on 08.11.13 1:09

I'm very torn on the Smiths sightings. Here's my take -

1. Eyewitness statements are notoriously unreliable.

2. The Smiths appear to have been through a number of phases: starting with a v vague ID; then after seeing TV pics of GMcC returning to the UK carrying one of his children (at the height of the time when they were suspected in the case) at least Mr Smith  deciding it was 60-80% definite that GMcC was who they saw; and then - after visits from Team McCann, appearing to withdraw that ID. None of that inspires confidence.

3. On the other hand at least one of the sightings is rather a good match for GMcC and the timing etc does fit rather well with the "panic scenario". So I can't see how you can rule it out, especially as Team McCann were so reluctant to release the e fits and seem to have distorted the timing of the sighting.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by logical on 08.11.13 1:30

Tony

The police asking witnesses, did your sighting look like a tourist or local is not a ridiculous question to ask imo

The interviewer was quite rightly trying to establish whether the man was a native or tourist.
I don't think it was meant to be a trick question and possibly  Smith and Tanners non tourist response may just be to their immediate thoughts of the fact that the man  carrying the child was not dressed in  typical tourist attire.

As I've previously stated I have been a regular visitor to the same area in Spain for a number of years now and I know for a fact I can spot tourists from locals anytime of the year im there, including knowing locals to see, but not by name and quite capable of knowing that fellah was not that fellah if u get my Murat drift ? and I know from my own experience that Martin Smith who has been a regular visitor to Portugal for some years now would know whether Smithman was Murat or not. In my opinion Jane Tanner stating her made up sighting was a tourist was to further help Gerry McCann after having been seen by the Smith Family.

Smith and Tanners sightings are uncomplicated because Tanner knew what Gerry McCann was wearing that night and Smiths saw what Gerry Mccann was wearing that night = the same .

It was Peter Smith who  mentioned his son (too young for statement) had mentioned a dark jacket and not Martin Smith.

Yes Tony your posts smearing the Smiths incited me to register to this forum to voice my opinion having browsed here for a number of years, but I have the greatest respect for you for all your other Trojan work, I just don't get you on your  Smiths stance.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by chillyheat on 08.11.13 1:35

Tanner - Murat........Murat - Smith
Then the messenger was no longer needed.......

                                                
But a source close to the McCanns said: "He is her son and most mothers would protect their children. Either she knows something or she is mistaken."   From Robert Murat (3) file
Unbelievable case.......

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Cristobell on 08.11.13 1:36

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@logical wrote:NFWTD

They Smiths Didn't fabricate anything, The highly respected Professional Profiler Pat Brown as recently as 2 weeks ago on her facebook page stated She Believes the Smith families Testimonies.
While, by contrast, Wendy Murphy declared: "It's a fake sighting".

I'm with Murphy on this, not Brown.
Wendy Murphy was not buying the circus that surrounds the investigation of this case Tony, she did not say anything about the Smith family sighting being fake.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by justathought on 08.11.13 1:49

@Okeydokey wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@TheTruthWillOut wrote:Keeping things as simple as possible, a scenario (feel free to shoot it down in flames!big grin ):

A male "Tapas" member decides they require a sighting and takes a child at around 10PM and bumps into the Smith family. Later after he gets back he either arranges the Tanner sighting or Tanner announces it to some members (whether invented or not) and he decides to use the Tanner sighting to debunk the Smith sighting.

Like I say.....probably full of holes, but I try.big grin
Well, have you worked this one out in your scenario?

Your male 'Tapas' member, having bumped into the Smith family, to quote you: "either arranges the Tanner sighting or Tanner announces it to some members".

The next day, Tanner describes this man and tells the police: "He didn't look like a tourist" - a highly unusual and extremely vague description if ever there was one.

(Not one person on any of the 'Smithman' threads has yet been able to suggest what a tourist looks like and a non-tourist looks like on a cold dark evening in Praia da Luz).   

Now, how does one account for the fact that, on 26 May, Smith uses an almost identical, unusual, vague description? - "He didn't look like a tourist".

I suggest four possibilities:

1) it was just a massive coincidence 

2) there was a bloke wandering around the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold May evening in the dark carrying a blonde girl in pyjamas and barefoot who for some reason 'didn't look like a tourist'

3) there were TWO blokes wandering arouind the streets of Praia da Luz on a cold May evening in the dark carrying a blonde girl in pyjamas and barefoot who for some reason 'didn't look like tourists'

OR

4) the Smith family made the whole 'sighting' up and in doing so relied on knowledge of Jane Tanner's description.     
 
Another possibility is that the Portugese ask that as a standard question of both Portugese and holidaymakers when investigating crimes. So you will get the answer either, yes or no.
the question is not a bad one. if it is followed up with an answer.
next question is, what made you think it was a tourist or a local?
please expand?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Joss on 08.11.13 1:52

@littlepixie wrote:I haven't got a clue whether the Smiths are genuine or not. I don't know them, the McCanns or Robert Murat. 
None of these people are our friends so there is nothing wrong with questioning their testimony when discrepancies or similarities occur.
littlepixie, I agree. I think this is a case of "Question Everything" because of the circus this case became, and still ongoingly persists. And it is not unusual for people to doubt Witness testimony especially when there are so many inconsistensies with the players in any one case, especially a criminal case.
I followed the Trayvon Martin case in the U.S. and  watched the livestream of the Trial. What a fiasco that Trial was, and in particular two Witnesses who were caught in lies, who should have been impeached but weren't, but that's another story. That whole case was absolutely disgusting.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by logical on 08.11.13 1:56

3 or 4 members of the Smith family probably contributed to  the efits, each  individuals perceptions of what they remembered seeing likely different from each others , Is this the real reason for the two efits ? How many times have you thought Mr x is the image of Mr Y only for  someone else to say no he doesn't look like him at all ?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Cristobell on 08.11.13 1:59

I really don't understand all the hullaballoo about the tourist question.  The child was 'taken' from a holiday resort, would be astounded if that question wasn't asked.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Cristobell on 08.11.13 2:01

@logical wrote:3 or 4 members of the Smith family probably contributed to  the efits, each  individuals perceptions of what they remembered seeing likely different from each others , Is this the real reason for the two efits ? How many times have you thought Mr x is the image of Mr Y only for  someone else to say no he doesn't look like him at all ?
He walked through the middle of the group so they were split either side of him.  They got different profiles - some saw left, some saw right.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by logical on 08.11.13 2:11

That's what I was thinking too Cristobell.thumbup

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Joss on 08.11.13 2:14

This is what M.Smith stated:
[color:c3b3=000000]Urged, he states that the individual did not appear to be a tourist. He cannot explain this further. It was simply his perception given the individual's clothing.

[color:c3b3=000000][color:c3b3=000000]And This:


Maple Drive man Martin Smith, his wife and his children had just left the Kelly bar, which is located approximately 400 metres from the McCanns' apartment at the Ocean Club between 9.50-10pm on the night Madeleine disappeared.

 

They returned to Ireland the next day, and because the reported abduction times didn't originally match, they never had cause to examine their journey that night.

 

As it emerged that Madeleine was abducted around the same time, one of the family members had a flashback of the moment some time later and encouraged the others to jog their memory.

 

They remembered passing a man walking towards the beach with a child in his arms.

 

Other than his approximate height and the fact that he was wearing beige clothes they cannot be more specific than that. 'We are annoyed at how vague our description is,' said the family member.
[color:c3b3=000000]http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

[color:c3b3=000000][color:c3b3=000000]So as this reads the Smith sighting is very vague, but is taken as a very significant lead in the case[color:c3b3=000000], and the person from the Smith's e-fit picture has a face too when the Smith's couldn't even really describe him properly.
[color:c3b3=000000]Do they just make stuff up then?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Joss on 08.11.13 2:38

My take on all of this Witnesses etc., is that unless Portugal officially  arrest and charge the McCann's with a felony and with an ensuing Trial for any culpability in their daughters disappearance and probable demise, all of it will just be a moot point anyhow. After 6+ years i wonder what the chances of the McC's ever being charged with a crime are to be likely? It would involve their extradition to Portugal. I'm very dubious of that ever happening.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.11.13 7:36

@Cristobell wrote:
Wendy Murphy was not buying the circus that surrounds the investigation of this case Tony, she did not say anything about the Smith family sighting being fake.
Cristobell, either you never saw the Wendy Murphy interview on Fox News, OR you've already forgotten what she said.

A reminder:

Wendy Murphy

WM: Tere, er, in my opinion is no new suspect and there never will be a new suspect unless and until the parents answer questions.

Remember - Kate McCann, poor Madeleine’s Mum, refused to answer 48 questions -

Presenter: Er, Wendy…

WM: Now they hired a team of lawyers right away

Presenter: Wendy...
 
WM: Ah, but this is important, she refused to anser – she hired lawyers straightaway. She refuses to answer 48 questions, things like: ‘What did you see when you walked into the room where your child was supposed to be sleeping?’  I mean, I’m so not interested in being dragged down a rabbit hole about a fake suspect.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Watching The Detectives on 08.11.13 7:51

Just curious: Is there a reason why some posters on this thread (e.g. Tony Bennett and Candyfloss) do not appear in the list of who's online or has been connected during the past 24hrs?

Apologies if the answer is obvious......or if I should have gone to Specsavers....

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.11.13 7:56

@BRODFB wrote:
So anyone who doesn't share your theory is a McCann supporter? aaaah
When you posted that, BRODFB, you knew perfectly well that that was not what I was saying.

I say again, and say it with force, that some new members have definitely joined these 'Smith' threads because - for whetever reason - they want to convince members here that the Smiths really did see someone.

Two of the most obvious new joiners, 'Sockpuppet' and 'StraightThinking', who joined wholly or mainly to promote the Smith sighting, have at last been banned by Admin. I was very rude and sarcastic towards them because they were the most obvious trolls. 

I am aware that there are many both long-standing and newer members who are utterly baffled by my relentless questioning of the Smith 'sighting', and cannot understand why I would effectively accuse apparently honest witnesses of making something up.

I wish to say that I have simply been driven to this position by the innumerable questions I have about their evidence.

To those who suspect that I have somehow 'turned', and am now prepared to criticise Goncalo Amaral and disagree with him, let me first of all remind members where that when I was a member of The Madeleine Foundation, I ensured that we spent £1,500 of our funds (in three separate payments) on making donations to Goncalo Amaral's legal fund - dipping into my own pocket to fund our leaflets in the process.

Unfortunately I am constrained for legal reasons from explaining precisely why, but I do dare to disagree with Goncalo Amaral's conclsuion that the Smith 'sighting' is credible.

I would rather not disagree with him on this point, but, as I've said, the queries I have about their claimed recall of this bloke they saw for about one or two seconds, in the dark, and without seeing his face, are so numerous that I have to disagree, and I find their evidence incredible.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.11.13 8:00

@Okeydokey wrote:
Another possibility is that the Portugese ask that as a standard question of both Portugese and holidaymakers when investigating crimes. So you will get the answer either, yes or no.
Would you concede that this possibillity is exceedingly remote and is a meaningless question?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.11.13 8:07

@logical wrote:Tony

The interviewer was quite rightly trying to establish whether the man was a native or tourist. I don't think it was meant to be a trick question and possibly Smith and Tanner's non tourist response may just be to their immediate thoughts of the fact that the man carrying the child was not dressed in  typical tourist attire.
You have stated that the police actually did ask that 'tourist' or 'non-tourist' question.

I am sure they did not, for the reasons I have given.

You refer to "the fact that the man carrying the child was not dressed in typical tourist attire".

Using the Smiths' own descriptions, please explain exactly what it was about wearing a dark jacket and light-coloured trousers that makes Martin Smith say; 'not a tourist'.

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