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Computer generated Sweetie

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Computer generated Sweetie

Post by Rufus T on 05.11.13 17:56

Interesting article over on the beeb

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24818769

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by Daisy on 05.11.13 18:26

I saw this on the news earlier. 20,000 men made contact. Absolutely sickening!


"More than 100 Britons were among 1,000 men caught trying to pay a computer-generated child to perform sex acts online, after a Dutch children's charity set up a fake profile.
Terre des Hommes carried out a 10-week sting near Amsterdam, posing on video chat rooms as "Sweetie", a 10-year-old Filipina girl.

Some 20,000 men contacted her, with 1,000 found to have offered her money.
The names of these men - including 110 Britons - were passed to police."

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by Guest on 05.11.13 18:42

Oops, I thought it was going to be about chocolate eclairs or something big grin 

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by PeterMac on 05.11.13 18:48

Very strange.
What is the offence of inciting a cartoon to perform an act ?
I don't see where this is going, except as a fishing expedition into their computers.

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by tigger on 05.11.13 19:03

@PeterMac wrote:Very strange.
What is the offence of inciting a cartoon to perform an act ?
I don't see where this is going, except as a fishing expedition into their computers.
I read this today in the press. The images created are totally lifelike. 
The problem is that these Internet paedos ask the real children to perform sex acts to their specification. 
Obviously a real child could not be used to trap these people. 
The technique was to ignore most and concentrate on one or two at a time, extracting as much information as possible. They could obviously make the images do whatever was asked. One of the customers asked for sweetie's little sister who she'd said was five. 

So I think this is a good technique to trap those perverts. They offered money and believed they were communicating with a live  child. 

PeterMac: you might like the Danish series called the Eagle or Oren. There's an excellent episode on trapping international child traffickers. It would certainly be available with German subtitles.

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by PeterMac on 05.11.13 22:00

It is one thing to trap people. That is the easy bit.
It is quite another thing to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that what they have done
1 Constitutes an offence known to law and that
2 They committed it.

I am not quite sure that inciting a cartoon to do something is an offence known to law in any country - so far.

If a Paedo downloads of real children - that is an offence
If he downloads images of Anime or Manga does he commit an offence.
I doubt it.

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by uppatoffee on 05.11.13 22:06

Would it perhaps identify people who require further investigation though PeterMac? If someone was found to have downloaded lots of child porn thanks to being identified through this type of entrapment could they be prosecuted?

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by PeterMac on 05.11.13 22:23

@uppatoffee wrote:Would it perhaps identify people who require further investigation though PeterMac? If someone was found to have downloaded lots of child porn thanks to being identified through this type of entrapment could they be prosecuted?
Theoretically YES.  Certainly.
But English law is very wary of "fishing expeditions".  ]


Fishing Expedition
Legal grasping at straws; the use of pretrial investigation discovery or witness questioning in an unfocused attempt to uncover damaging evidence to be used against an adversary.
FISHING EXPEDITION
1:  a legal interrogation or examination to discover information for a later proceeding
2:  an investigation that does not stick to a stated objective but hopes to uncover incriminating or newsworthy evidence
Other jurisdictions prohibit them entirely.

And I would imagine that al the putative defendants could argue 'Entrapment" anyway.
This was done by a Charity - not by Police, so there is no reason why we can assume that anyone has investigated any codes of conduct, or legal framework.

They may have simply driven it all yet further underground,

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by plebgate on 05.11.13 22:26

What happened to the Cameron pledge in the Summer to try and prohibit it in UK?

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by tigger on 06.11.13 6:08

@PeterMac wrote:
@uppatoffee wrote:Would it perhaps identify people who require further investigation though PeterMac? If someone was found to have downloaded lots of child porn thanks to being identified through this type of entrapment could they be prosecuted?
Theoretically YES.  Certainly.
But English law is very wary of "fishing expeditions".  ]


Fishing Expedition
Legal grasping at straws; the use of pretrial investigation discovery or witness questioning in an unfocused attempt to uncover damaging evidence to be used against an adversary.
FISHING EXPEDITION
1:  a legal interrogation or examination to discover information for a later proceeding
2:  an investigation that does not stick to a stated objective but hopes to uncover incriminating or newsworthy evidence
Other jurisdictions prohibit them entirely.

And I would imagine that al the putative defendants could argue 'Entrapment" anyway.
This was done by a Charity - not by Police, so there is no reason why we can assume that anyone has investigated any codes of conduct, or legal framework.

They may have simply driven it all yet further underground,
As long as they don't make the fishing expedition public, it would enable them to identify those who are committing this crime on real children and find evidence that will stand up in court. 

As to fishing expeditions, doesn't Gunnal's effort with TB come under that heading?

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by PeterMac on 06.11.13 7:23

@tigger wrote:
As to fishing expeditions, doesn't Gunnal's effort with TB come under that heading?
Yes. What Gunnell did was a crime. Fraud. He is a criminal. He committed a crime and Carter-Ruck received the material so obtained.
Someone, or the firm, is therefore also clearly Guilty of Handling Stolen Goods, as defined in the Theft Act.

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by PeterMac on 06.11.13 7:28

Back on thread.
What these people are doing may well be unacceptable, but the question is whether viewing a cartoon / computer generated image is contrary to law.
There are whole sites, many from Japan, dedicated to cartoon images of sexual violence of one form or another.
There are computer games which depict extreme violence and bodily mutilation.
And so on
How "old" is a cartoon image" ?
It is a meaningless question.

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 06.11.13 8:25

Peter, I think chatting to a cartoon with nefarious intentions CAN be a criminal offence. I've been wracking my brains since you first raised this, and I read online a few days ago (can't for the life of me remember where or I would quote it directly) in a news item or blog, that someone was recently convicted based on the fact that they had attempted a crime, even though what they were actually trying to do is not a crime. Sounds ridiculous, but the INTENT to commit a crime was seen in and of itself to be the crime. I really wish I could pinpoint it in my memory.

Isn't this Sweetie thing in the same league as when the police set up sting/trap cars in areas with hight crime rates?

I think for the purposes of this Sweetie thing, is the same as when the police use decoys. The people contacting the cartoon have the INTENT as if it were a real 10yr old child. The fact that it is a set up does not alter the fact one iota that these pieces of filth THINK they are in the process of grooming a child for rape or other degradation.

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by PeterMac on 06.11.13 8:48

The car stings are slightly different. There is a REAL car, and the person tries to steal it.
"Attempt" offences become hideously complicated.
Have a look at
http://www.cdpp.gov.au/Publications/Directors-Litigation-Instructions/Directors-Litigation-Instruction-05.pdf
Where they tie themselves in knots over the "attempt" to import drugs, which have in fact been substituted by the authorities . . .
Intent may not be the main issue.
I may "intend" to do you harm, but on the day my car door jams and I can't get out, and you walk away blissfully unaware of what I was planning to do.
What offence have I committed ?

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 06.11.13 9:14

@PeterMac wrote:The car stings are slightly different. There is a REAL car, and the person tries to steal it.
"Attempt" offences become hideously complicated.
Have a look at
http://www.cdpp.gov.au/Publications/Directors-Litigation-Instructions/Directors-Litigation-Instruction-05.pdf
Where they tie themselves in knots over the "attempt" to import drugs, which have in fact been substituted by the authorities . . .
Intent may not be the main issue.
I may "intend" to do you harm, but on the day my car door jams and I can't get out, and you walk away blissfully unaware of what I was planning to do.
What offence have I committed ?
I see where you are coming from, but this is like cases where someone has attempted to get a hit man to bump someone off, the plot doesn't transpire as intended, but nevertheless the perps are jailed. It is clear in the Sweetie case that by there mere act of interacting with the avatar, a crime is being committed, i.e. these b@st@rds are communicating in a pedophile way with what they think is a real 10 year old, offering money for illegal acts and so on. So regardless of the fact it is in fact an avatar, the offence is being committed by the communication itself, they knowing they are committing a pedophile offence/sex crime by communicating and offering money.

That it turns out it is an avatar is incidental to the crime. The crime has been committed.

At least that is my understanding and belief. Citing your own example is it not like pointing a gun at someone, pulling the trigger only to find the trigger sticks, for example and the bullet does not fired out. If it could be proven that you were pointing the gun at me and pulled the trigger you could be done for attempted murder.


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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 06.11.13 9:45

Peter, it was the CPS notes on inchoate offence that I think you put up, that talks about attempt/intent.

I am certain legally it is a crime re the Sweetie case, shame we both aren't practising Barristers or we could have some interesting semantic pugilism!!

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by PeterMac on 06.11.13 10:26

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
I am certain legally it is a crime re the Sweetie case, shame we both aren't practising Barristers or we could have some interesting semantic pugilism!!
No, to my shame I did not follow through to Call, though I remain a Member of the Middle Temple. The oldest student there, I should think. My career drifted off in another direction.

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by nomendelta on 06.11.13 10:50

I thought the whole point of this was the people thought this was a real child? If they did it knowing it was a computer generated image then I agree with PeterMac in that the crime is somewhat different.

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 06.11.13 13:41

@PeterMac wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
I am certain legally it is a crime re the Sweetie case, shame we both aren't practising Barristers or we could have some interesting semantic pugilism!!
No, to my shame I did not follow through to Call, though I remain a Member of the Middle Temple.  The oldest student there, I should think. My career drifted off in another direction.
Never too late Peter! I thought about studying Law many years ago for my degree, but couldn't stomach a) remembering all the case details (not a retentive enough memory) and more importantly b) the thought of having to defend the indefensible !!

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by PeterMac on 06.11.13 14:11

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
I am certain legally it is a crime re the Sweetie case, shame we both aren't practising Barristers or we could have some interesting semantic pugilism!!
No, to my shame I did not follow through to Call, though I remain a Member of the Middle Temple.  The oldest student there, I should think. My career drifted off in another direction.
Never too late Peter! I thought about studying Law many years ago for my degree, but couldn't stomach a) remembering all the case details (not a retentive enough memory) and more importantly b) the thought of having to defend the indefensible !!
They kept changing the rules. I joined when you could go direct from a decent University, then they wanted a law degree, so I got one, then it was out of date and I would have had to re-take the 6 core subjects . . .
My idea was to be a Prosecutor - obviously !

But back to the topic, I still have some difficulty with what they are going to do.
The inchoate crimes don't seem to fit well enough round the circumstances of a man making indecent suggestions to a cartoon image !
I have the feeling that the law will find it is some years behind modern reality.

Many years ago there was a nutter in Chicago who indecently exposed himself at dead of night, to a shop window full of mannequins !
The Police Chief was quoted as saying "This is the first of series of NONE, we hope".

I don't underestimate the depths of depravity which have been revealed.  I am just having difficulty seeing how the authorities are going to proceed.
And again, let us remember that this was a sting by a Charity, not by the Police.  They may not have thought it through.

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 06.11.13 14:33

I think as technology and methods and situations arise, they courts are just going to have to find their way there if there is no like-for-like precedent set. I think at the very least there is some sort of charge for intent to procure blah bla….the 20,000 people who were "drawn" to the fictional character is actually incredibly terrifying about the scale of the problem.

If such an exercise reveal a tip of the iceberg as being in the order of tens of thousands, then it should stand as a very stark warning to ALL persons in law enforcement. At least these experiments (flippant word I know, sorry) being made public will hopefully let the scum know there is yet another way that THEY are being watched and monitored.

The fact that the likes of Government and service providers aren't eliminating this stuff from circulation shows us a lot about their moral (or lack thereof).

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update on sweetie

Post by Rufus T on 21.10.14 8:19

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29688996

Looks like this is the first conviction thanks to sweetie.

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Re: Computer generated Sweetie

Post by plebgate on 21.10.14 13:28

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:I think as technology and methods and situations arise, they courts are just going to have to find their way there if there is no like-for-like precedent set. I think at the very least there is some sort of charge for intent to procure blah bla….the 20,000 people who were "drawn" to the fictional character is actually incredibly terrifying about the scale of the problem.

If such an exercise reveal a tip of the iceberg as being in the order of tens of thousands, then it should stand as a very stark warning to ALL persons in law enforcement. At least these experiments (flippant word I know, sorry) being made public will hopefully let the scum know there is yet another way that THEY are being watched and monitored.

The fact that the likes of Government and service providers aren't eliminating this stuff from circulation shows us a lot about their moral (or lack thereof).
thumbsup

When the London riots took place, the rioters' faces were posted on the news on tv and the courts were open very early right through to late at night and quite a few were sent to jail.   

How come this can't be done for the thousands of perverts they know are downloading this filth.?

I wouldn't care how much it cost the public purse if it would stop children being hurt and harmed on a daily basis.

It's sick and disgusting and needs to be stopped as quickly as possible.

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