The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hello!

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.

When posting please be mindful that this forum is primarily about the death of a three year old girl.

Regards,

Jill Havern
Forum owner

Things I'm confused about....

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 19:50

@SittingOnTheFence wrote:
"there would be evidence of child abuse or something else"
All of them being involved in child abuse and thus all needing to be part of the cover up - that's way beyond my scope!
I've come to the conclusion that the truth in this matter is either reasonably simple (an accident on the evening of the 3rd, as widely discussed) or incredibly complex. I just can't see any middle ground.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by mysterion on 09.11.13 20:03

If sedation was used, could it have been an accidental double dose. Might explain the comment, WE let Maddy down.

mysterion

Posts : 358
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2013-11-08

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Daisy on 09.11.13 20:06

@SittingOnTheFence wrote:THANKS - got it back!!!

 The "baby listening service" that the Warner group offered at some of it's resorts was no different to the check system that the Tapas 9 were performing (do they just "listen" or perform a physical check (need to check that out))?

Glad you retrieved your post, made me chuckle when you said it had been abducted. titter

I have to disagree with what you say here. The difference with the other MW resorts that offer "baby listening services" is that they are 'closed resorts' 'gated communities'. The Ocean Club at PDL isn't such a resort so deemed unsafe for this type of service. Hence the (free) evening creche on site, or private babysitting service in own apartment for a modest fee.

____________________
“Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.”   

Unknown


“And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” 

Friedrich Nietzsche

Daisy

Posts : 1245
Reputation : 5
Join date : 2011-06-15
Location : Yorkshire, England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 20:07

Clay Regazzoni wrote: I've come to the conclusion that the truth in this matter is either reasonably simple (an accident on the evening of the 3rd, as widely discussed) or incredibly complex. I just can't see any middle ground.
***
Hm ... would love to agree with you, but - unfortunately - there are quite some scenarios in the middle.
One of the most plausibles for me, is a demise on May 2 evening, without the parents noticing that she was behind the sofa, as they never bothered to check before turning in [after a boozy night?]. The May 3 routines are completely different from the days before. The T7 distance themselves from the MCs and/or v.v. The reason poor MBM was dead, may have been good [or rather bad] enough to get them into real trouble, but was then possibly enhanced by the fact they hadn't even noticed.
Without going into the darker regions of possibilities, I would think that this is good enough reason to stage an abduction. To save their own lives & future and that of the twins [probably in that order ...].

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by SittingOnTheFence on 09.11.13 20:14

mysterion  - I think you are on the right lines. Either double dose or that they both agreed to give her a sedative, maybe increase the dose if already sedating. 

Even more so it could be the guilt of having left Madeleine alone again despite Madeleine crying on at least two occasions (plus one of the twins) and Madeleine raising the subject with them. Their response - no concern for the children what so ever.

SittingOnTheFence

Posts : 15
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-11-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 20:18

Châtelaine wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote: I've come to the conclusion that the truth in this matter is either reasonably simple (an accident on the evening of the 3rd, as widely discussed) or incredibly complex. I just can't see any middle ground.
***
Hm ... would love to agree with you, but - unfortunately - there are quite some scenarios in the middle.
One of the most plausibles for me, is a demise on May 2 evening, without the parents noticing that she was behind the sofa, as they never bothered to check before turning in [after a boozy night?]. The May 3 routines are completely different from the days before. The T7 distance themselves from the MCs and/or v.v. The reason poor MBM was dead, may have been good [or rather bad] enough to get them into real trouble, but was then possibly enhanced by the fact they hadn't even noticed.
Without going into the darker regions of possibilities, I would think that this is good enough reason to stage an abduction. To save their own lives & future and that of the twins [probably in that order ...].
Yeah, good theory, I agree. But then you get into the same elements of creche fakery and apparently relaxed dining that you are obliged to wear with the more outlandish theories.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by mysterion on 09.11.13 20:22

I was thinking a simple mistake  like KM gives a dose then GM gives a dose not realising.

mysterion

Posts : 358
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2013-11-08

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Hongkong Phooey on 09.11.13 20:24

"there would be evidence of child abuse or something else"
All of them being involved in child abuse and thus all needing to be part of the cover up - that's way beyond my scope![/quote]


There are some real pointers that this could be the case. Would you expect if this had happened to any other couple we would likely get things like the Gaspers, Yvonne Martin, dubious photos released of the child and the constant references of being abducted by paedophiles from the get go.

Hongkong Phooey

Posts : 310
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-10-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 20:30

@ Clay Regazonni:
To be honest [no Kate quote ...] in this theory [because that's what it is] I think that part of T7 were either ignorant of the facts or collaborated in some form, because they had something to hide too [sedated their kids too?]. The ones, who were ignorant had no problem to act natural during the May 3 dinner - the others had real interests to protect. Given extraordinary circumstances, one can do extraordinary things. I guess  most of us would have examples of that. Faking the creche records for one day, must have been peanuts as opposed to what they were up to then. And don't forget that Madeleine's creche nanny was sent off to Greece in a jiffy AND was invited to have tea at Rothley Towers sometime November 2007. Not to mention, so far unsubstantiated rumours, that she's doing quite well at the moment looking after a millionaire's children in Upper New York ... Well, O.K., I mentioned winkwink

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by SittingOnTheFence on 09.11.13 20:36

Daisy - I have to agree with you - that is a weak argument.  I was trying to see what the 'defence' might argue. Some people may plead ignorance in not appreciating the finer issues as to why that particular service was not provided - lack of staff as opposed to security? Leaving the door unlocked though - undefendable and beggars belief (if they are telling the truth). I think it was locked and had to become unlocked when it was realized that there was no sign of a break in.

SittingOnTheFence

Posts : 15
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-11-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 20:41

Châtelaine wrote:@ Clay Regazonni:
To be honest [no Kate quote ...] in this theory [because that's what it is] I think that part of T7 were either ignorant of the facts or collaborated in some form, because they had something to hide too [sedated their kids too?]. The ones, who were ignorant had no problem to act natural during the May 3 dinner - the others had real interests to protect. Given extraordinary circumstances, one can do extraordinary things. I guess  most of us would have examples of that. Faking the creche records for one day, must have been peanuts as opposed to what they were up to then. And don't forget that Madeleine's creche nanny was sent off to Greece in a jiffy AND was invited to have tea at Rothley Towers sometime November 2007. Not to mention, so far unsubstantiated rumours, that she's doing quite well at the moment looking after a millionaire's children in Upper New York ... Well, O.K., I mentioned winkwink
Yeah it is a good theory and to be honest (there's that expression again) not one I had ever considered before. Depending on what I've read most recently I can at different times accept anything between theory A) There was a genuine abduction and we just can't accept it because the parents and all their friends are such a bunch of palpable f***wits, and theory Z) There never was a Madeleine McCann and the whole thing is an elaborate publicity stunt/psy op exercise.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by aquila on 09.11.13 20:45

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:@ Clay Regazonni:
To be honest [no Kate quote ...] in this theory [because that's what it is] I think that part of T7 were either ignorant of the facts or collaborated in some form, because they had something to hide too [sedated their kids too?]. The ones, who were ignorant had no problem to act natural during the May 3 dinner - the others had real interests to protect. Given extraordinary circumstances, one can do extraordinary things. I guess  most of us would have examples of that. Faking the creche records for one day, must have been peanuts as opposed to what they were up to then. And don't forget that Madeleine's creche nanny was sent off to Greece in a jiffy AND was invited to have tea at Rothley Towers sometime November 2007. Not to mention, so far unsubstantiated rumours, that she's doing quite well at the moment looking after a millionaire's children in Upper New York ... Well, O.K., I mentioned winkwink
Yeah it is a good theory and to be honest (there's that expression again) not one I had ever considered before. Depending on what I've read most recently I can at different times accept anything between theory A) There was a genuine abduction and we just can't accept it because the parents and all their friends are such a bunch of palpable f***wits, and theory Z) There never was a Madeleine McCann and the whole thing is an elaborate publicity stunt/psy op exercise.
@ Clay Regazonni, you don't mind me calling you CR do you? (it saves time)

What's your theory? don't ask me mine as I don't have one. I like facts.

aquila

Posts : 7988
Reputation : 1227
Join date : 2011-09-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 20:52

Clay Regazzoni wrote:Yeah it is a good theory and to be honest (there's that expression again) not one I had ever considered before. Depending on what I've read most recently I can at different times accept anything between theory A) There was a genuine abduction and we just can't accept it because the parents and all their friends are such a bunch of palpable f***wits, and theory Z) There never was a Madeleine McCann and the whole thing is an elaborate publicity stunt/psy op exercise.
***
I've been in all those place before too, Clay, up to and including that it's a hoax [by the Media Monitoring Unit ?] to see what would happen in the new media, which were just getting into their place then, if you give them some incoherent, well published criminal mystery ... smilie But with time and all the additional information we have, be it difficult to sift real from wrong, some things seem to fall into place. Actually, MY biggest question nowis: what happened to Madeleine? After her demise! How can they be so confident, as they seem to be, that she cannot be found? And that, that is another series of theories ....

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 20:55

[quote="aquila"]@ Clay Regazonni, you don't mind me calling you CR do you? (it saves time) [quote]
***
LOL Aquila. But it IS confusing, as we have reserved the abbreviation "CR" for Carter-F*ck ... Or ...?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by SittingOnTheFence on 09.11.13 21:20

Hongkong Phooey - 

Yvonne Martin - I don't see her comment as too unusual. She thinks she recognises David Payne through her work but isn't sure in what context. Taking into account her profession this would need following up which the police did. He's not offended, or at least he hasn't been caught as an offender. I've met people that I'm sure I've met before but can't place it and when I've approached them they don't know me. She could be wrong, she could be right, it could be an innocent meeting. 

Gasper's statement - I agree, very odd comments / gestures to make to the extent that she refused to allow him alone or near her children at bath time. I tend to side with a persons instincts in that if she felt an unease with him there could be more to it. She claims that he made the gesture twice, first concerning Madeleine and second concerning Lillie but can't be sure and is making an assumption.  She can't remember if the second occasion was on holiday or at a later meeting at a restaurant. I would suspect the former because she states that it was the 2nd time she witnessed it that it made her think something was not right, and then watched David around her children. 

I'm not disputing what she is saying but:

The first time was a conversation between David and Gerry - why did she not tar Gerry with the same brush and also watch him around her children?
Would pedophiles really have such an open conversation with a non-pedophile sitting in-between them?
Who was David talking to, doing the gestures to, on the second occasion?
She is assuming on both occasions that the discussion was about a specific child. Is there a joke that has this as the 'punchline' and it was that joke that he was recounting? i have seen some joke's that use similar gestures.  

I would think that when a young girl is abducted / missing one of the first terrors that goes into a mothers head is pedophile, along with accidents etc. so again I don't find this odd.

Dubious photo's - I'm sorry but I've not read anything about this - are these photo's of Madeleine or other children and who had them?

I'm playing devils advocate here, looking for strong facts / arguments for something which I think can be easily explained away as insignificant.

SittingOnTheFence

Posts : 15
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-11-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Daisy on 09.11.13 21:25

Châtelaine wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:Yeah it is a good theory and to be honest (there's that expression again) not one I had ever considered before. Depending on what I've read most recently I can at different times accept anything between theory A) There was a genuine abduction and we just can't accept it because the parents and all their friends are such a bunch of palpable f***wits, and theory Z) There never was a Madeleine McCann and the whole thing is an elaborate publicity stunt/psy op exercise.
***
I've been in all those place before too, Clay, up to and including that it's a hoax [by the Media Monitoring Unit ?] to see what would happen in the new media, which were just getting into their place then, if you give them some incoherent, well published criminal mystery ... smilie But with time and all the additional information we have, be it difficult to sift real from wrong, some things seem to fall into place. Actually, MY biggest question nowis: what happened to Madeleine? After her demise! How can they be so confident, as they seem to be, that she cannot be found? And that, that is another series of theories ....
Many a true word is spoken in jest.

I don't have a solid theory either. It's been made into a very complex case even if it wasn't so at the start. But I've never ever believed in 'theory A' ^

____________________
“Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.”   

Unknown


“And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” 

Friedrich Nietzsche

Daisy

Posts : 1245
Reputation : 5
Join date : 2011-06-15
Location : Yorkshire, England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 21:26

@aquila wrote:@ Clay Regazonni, you don't mind me calling you CR do you? (it saves time)

What's your theory? don't ask me mine as I don't have one. I like facts.
No, I don't mind what you call me as long as we can understand each other.

I struggle with a single coherent theory that takes everything into account. The only thing that everybody seems to accept as fact is the dog's findings and really everything else spins off that. Sadly I do fear a paedophile element although I can barely bring myself to think it, let alone type it. And I really do struggle with the photos, as I've said elsewhere; it really does make me wonder if everything about Madeleine McCann's existence, apart from the fact of her existence itself, has been misrepresented and misrecorded by the very people who were supposed to care about her the most.

I didn't have children when this story broke, and it smelled all wrong to me then, having visited Portugal many times. I had a daughter in 2008 and we have subsequently been to Portugal several times with her; it just confirmed and hardened all the opinions I held before. What I found most saddening was my own parents' questioning of our decision to travel to Portugal as a family in light of "what happened to Maddie". I find it irritating beyond words when people say that what befell the McCanns "could happen to anybody". People should have more dignity than to lower themselves to their level. I can assure you that I am NOT touching wood when I say that what happened to them sure as hell couldn't happen to us.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by notlongnow on 09.11.13 21:28

I'am confused at nearly every point in this.
Leaving your kids on there own is bad enough but to leave the doors open as well is nuts.

notlongnow

Posts : 482
Reputation : 46
Join date : 2013-10-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by chillyheat on 09.11.13 21:34

Im confused as to why Tannerman is not raking in the money with his front page story thinking

chillyheat

Posts : 814
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2013-10-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by galena on 09.11.13 21:36

@SittingOnTheFence wrote:mysterion  - I think you are on the right lines. Either double dose or that they both agreed to give her a sedative, maybe increase the dose if already sedating. 

Even more so it could be the guilt of having left Madeleine alone again despite Madeleine crying on at least two occasions (plus one of the twins) and Madeleine raising the subject with them. Their response - no concern for the children what so ever.
I've always suspected that - if she did come to harm due to their neglect - the whole thing, the fund, the focus on the 'search' the stated belief that she is still alive  is far more about denial than even evading legal consequences. I would feel that way myself in their situation.

galena

Posts : 288
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2013-09-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by SittingOnTheFence on 09.11.13 21:47

Galena, I agree with you. The profilers have called them narcissistic, and they meet a lot of the criteria - denial being one of them. 
http://outofthefog.net/Disorders/NPD.html
Denial - Believing or imagining that some painful or traumatic circumstance, event or memory does not exist or did not happen

This is a good read (not about the MCCanns but Christian Longo who killed his wife and child). It helps to understand how / why the MCCanns might be acting as they are:

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/01/this_man_killed_his_family_and.html

SittingOnTheFence

Posts : 15
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-11-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 22:10

That's a fascinating read, SOTF.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Hongkong Phooey on 09.11.13 22:20

@SittingOnTheFence wrote:Hongkong Phooey - 

Yvonne Martin - I don't see her comment as too unusual. She thinks she recognises David Payne through her work but isn't sure in what context. Taking into account her profession this would need following up which the police did. He's not offended, or at least he hasn't been caught as an offender. I've met people that I'm sure I've met before but can't place it and when I've approached them they don't know me. She could be wrong, she could be right, it could be an innocent meeting. 

Gasper's statement - I agree, very odd comments / gestures to make to the extent that she refused to allow him alone or near her children at bath time. I tend to side with a persons instincts in that if she felt an unease with him there could be more to it. She claims that he made the gesture twice, first concerning Madeleine and second concerning Lillie but can't be sure and is making an assumption.  She can't remember if the second occasion was on holiday or at a later meeting at a restaurant. I would suspect the former because she states that it was the 2nd time she witnessed it that it made her think something was not right, and then watched David around her children. 

I'm not disputing what she is saying but:

The first time was a conversation between David and Gerry - why did she not tar Gerry with the same brush and also watch him around her children?
Would pedophiles really have such an open conversation with a non-pedophile sitting in-between them?
Who was David talking to, doing the gestures to, on the second occasion?
She is assuming on both occasions that the discussion was about a specific child. Is there a joke that has this as the 'punchline' and it was that joke that he was recounting? i have seen some joke's that use similar gestures.  

I would think that when a young girl is abducted / missing one of the first terrors that goes into a mothers head is pedophile, along with accidents etc. so again I don't find this odd.

Dubious photo's - I'm sorry but I've not read anything about this - are these photo's of Madeleine or other children and who had them?

I'm playing devils advocate here, looking for strong facts / arguments for something which I think can be easily explained away as insignificant.
Dr Amaral had severe reservations of DP he mentioned it heavily in his book, I do agree on the why Katrine was not so 'alarmed' with Gerry. What has to be taken into account is that it is highly unusual for doctors to report each other especially as it must also have ended their friendship which did go back a while.

As for the photos:- Maddie heavily 'done up' in adult make up, or the one with the ice cream cone (I'm on a mobile which makes searching and linking difficult sorry) are two that spring immediately to mind. There's also DP with the girls on his lap (in the pj files) which caused great debate at the time.

Hongkong Phooey

Posts : 310
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-10-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by plebgate on 09.11.13 22:23

@notlongnow wrote:I'am confused at nearly every point in this.
Leaving your kids on there own is bad enough but to leave the doors open as well is nuts.
I don't believe they did leave the doors unlocked.  Who in their right minds would do something like that?

Why did it take 10 days for Mr. to change his statement to the police?

plebgate

Posts : 5573
Reputation : 1308
Join date : 2013-02-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Things I'm confused about....

Post by Guest on 09.11.13 22:26

IF, I say IF, DP was making doubtful suggestions to GM. And IF, I say if, GM was NOT of such same tendency ... then ... he would have slapped him right in the face. He didn't, though.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum