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WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

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Mr Smith' sighting

Post by worriedmum on 30.10.13 0:39

I think this has probably been discussed before, but IIRC the timing of events may go some way to explaining things, eg don't forget the Smiths left as it was all kicking off. Plus what would your reaction be if you then heard that someone had subsequently been made arguido, whom you knew by sight and so realised was not the person you had seen?  I'd probably think,'oh, that's sorted then...'


I'm just trying to see it from a different point if view..

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by davidslewgoliath on 30.10.13 0:46

@listener wrote:
@listener wrote:
@ProfMoriarty wrote:Mr Smith states he is 60-80% certain of his identification, in January 2008. Quite impressive.
Indeed!

I conducted a wee, unplanned experiment on Sat evening.
I was at my pals for tea. After tea, his wife took their dog for a walk. Later on, I asked her if she had seen/passed anyone in her street during her walk. She knew she had passed a couple, holding hands.
Age? - Middle age (I think).
What were they wearing? - Pretty vague.
Colours? - She could not tell me!

That was about 30 minutes after her return from her walk.

I am, and have always been, very dubious about the 'Smith sighting'.
I believe that under certain circumstances one can remember things. But I also believe that you need to have a reason to remember - a reason something implanted itself in you memory e.g. Unusual things stand out - gait, clothing, actions - something/anything unusual or out of the ordinary.
After the balloon went up, the Smiths reported nothing! Not until he/they were back in Ireland and saw a news report showing GM descending the aircraft stairs. Suddenly he remembers. But what does he remember? It couldn't have been GM's face - because he must have seen it in the press furore a hundred times in the immediate days after the 'abduction'. Equally, It can't be the way GM carried Sean down the steps - I see nothing unusual about the way Sean was carried.
So what really provoked him, months later, to come forward? And much, much later describe clothing?
nah

See McCann P J Files Witness Testimony of Martin Smith. 1606 to 1610. Martin, Aoife & Peter Smith made statements on 26/05/07 re the encounter with the man carrying the child.  Later on 20/09/07 Martin Smith contacted Stuart Prior in Leicestshire by telephone to say how concerned he was on seeing McC descending the plane steps carrying a child in a way which reminded him of the encounter in 3rd May.  

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by ultimaThule on 30.10.13 0:49

@Woburn_exile wrote:I personally do not believe it was a homicide, I do think it was an accident and the parents have covered it up.

This is precisely why this case needs to be treated as a homicide. If it was truly an accident then why the rush to involve the media, family members, friends in influential positions. Why establish a timeline of dubious accountability BEFORE contacting the Police? Why put on the "praying arab" act simultaneously? Why invent a story about the break-in? Peter mac answered effectively on another thread what police officers really look for. Then why go all out on the abduction theory from the get go? To protect their miserable reputations as parents? Personally when I heard the news my first thought was "what rubbish parents they must be". I know that probably 90% of parents will agree with me on that one. What is being covered up?
If the child met with a fatal accident while her parents were out of sight and earshot I have no doubt that, aided and abetted by their friends, a plausible story would have been cobbled together, along the lines of one I've posted on another thread, as explanation for any delay in alerting the appropriate authorities.

The only reason for concealing a body in this particular case has to be fear of what would have been found on autopsy.  This gives rise to suspicion the child died as a result of non-accidental injury, which would include being given an overdose of medication by one or other of her parents or one of their friends.

As DCI Andy Redwood of the Homicide and Serious Crime Command is leading NSY's investigation, I have no doubt murder and manslaughter are being considered as possible cause for Madeleine's disappearance.

My thoughts on the McCanns' school of parenting, which at least 4 of their pals also attended, are temporarily unprintable but, incredible as it may seem, the abuse and child neglect perpetrated on their infants and very young children on 5 consecutive nights was apparently deemed insufficient to support prosecution in Portugal.  

However, as GM was quick to discover,  the penalty for concealment of a body and the penalty for child neglect under Portuguese law is a maximum sentence of 2 years if found guilty.  I am mightily relieved no charges were brought against the odious pair because there is now every prospect of them going down for life with, hopefully, a minimum tariff of 20+ years.

With regard to GM's 'praying Arab' act,  from another thread it appears this a Masonic gesture presumably performed to attract the attention of any Portuguese apron wearers who were in the vicinity.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Okeydokey on 30.10.13 1:28

The papers have gone v. quiet on the McCann story. Does anyone else think that they might have been Carter-Rucked on Monday and are reviewing their position?

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by ultimaThule on 30.10.13 2:07

I don't think they've been Carter-Rucked, nor will they be again as the genie is well and truly out of the bottle - from clicking a link on another thread, I learned that 12,000+ have joined just one of the anti-McCann FB sites since Sunday and more will follow as word gets round, 

In addition, as the McCanns have taken a serious financial hit in Portugal, I suspect they're busily salting dosh away for the rainy day that's looming on their horizon and I very much doubt they'll have high end lawyers queueing up to work on a no win-no fee basis for them.

While other news will invariably take precedence over the McCanns, I have fully expect them to be hitting the headlines again soon.   

Fwiw, the Sunday Times story was taken up by the Telegraph on Monday and the McCanns have been dealt a body blow as these two titles in particular are read by the establishment types they have always been so keen to impress hence KM's bravado performance at York Minster, but no amount of head bowing as if in prayer and saintly poses with or without pizza hats will cut it for her/them any more.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by sonic72 on 30.10.13 2:25

Still waiting for the BBC to report on this story..

They seem to be taking their time checking this story out..

I suspect they will avoid it like the plague, and prove once again, that they're not an unbiased news source..

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by suzyjohnson on 30.10.13 4:21

@ProfMoriarty wrote:(Martin Smith) was, though, very much strengthening his original statement rather than mellowing it, which is what I was trying to express.
What makes Mr Smith's statement so compelling for me is that it originated not in PDL but at home in his own house watching the BBC News and observing the McCs returning from PDL. Also, he wasn't alone, but was with his family in PDL. They all gave witness statements, though there was a variety of opinion as to how much was seen or who it might have been. He was startled to find himself recognising the man on the TV...........
However, that he and his family were in PDL is incontestable. As is the fact they ALL saw a man carrying a child.
Yes your view on the Smith sighting is more or less what I was thinking ProfMoriaty.

Also important is the description of the child carried, irrespective of what Smith remembers about the man, his description of the girl closely resembles Madeleine, and for this reason you would think the McCanns would want to give this sighting, at 9.50 pm - 10 pm and a five minute walk from the apartment, maximum publicity -

Martin Smith's statement 26/05/07 - 'He states that the child was female, about four years of age as she was similar to his granddaughter of the same age. It was a child of normal complexion, about a metre in height. The child has blonde medium-hued hair, without being very light. Her skin was very white, typical of a Brit. He did not look at her eyes. As she was asleep and her eyelids were closed. 
• She was wearing light-coloured pyjamas. He cannot state with certainty the colour. She was not covered by any other cover or sheet. He cannot confirm whether she was barefoot but in his group, they spoke about the child having no cover on her feet' 

Are people in the habit of carrying barefoot children around PdL at night without blankets? I would be interested to know whether Crecheman (the man the police say is him) says that he was carrying his child without shoes. Because JT was very clear about seeing this child's bare feet, and so why would that be?. If you were taking your child to the creche wouldn't you take something for them to wear on their feet?

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 30.10.13 6:25

Châtelaine wrote:
@listener wrote:
@ProfMoriarty wrote:Mr Smith states he is 60-80% certain of his identification, in January 2008. Quite impressive.
Indeed!

I conducted a wee, unplanned experiment on Sat evening.
I was at my pals for tea. After tea, his wife took their dog for a walk. Later on, I asked her if she had seen/passed anyone in her street during her walk. She knew she had passed a couple, holding hands.
Age? - Middle age (I think).
What were they wearing? - Pretty vague.
Colours? - She could not tell me!

That was about 30 minutes after her return from her walk.
***
You should have asked me big grin 
Some people DO register, even subconsciously, important details.
We're all different.
I saw a young drunk committing criminal damage . I couldn't have done a good E fit , but 9 months latter picked him out of a line up. I think it's easier to recognise the person again then try and describe them.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Guest on 30.10.13 6:59

Online Telegraph artical is still there, most viewed has moved up from 4 to 2

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/

Hope it goes to 1, may prompt them to go back to their archives.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Miraflores on 30.10.13 7:10

 How common were these types of trousers back then?
Certainly not uncommon: I had a couple of pairs like that. They have a button on the  outside and a tab on the inside so that they can be rolled up and fastened into place to wear them as 3/4 length trousers or shorts - depending on where the button is placed. They were exactly the sort of garment you would take for holidays because being able to wear them either way meant that you could cut down on weight and packing.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Silver Shuffle on 30.10.13 7:15

@ProfMoriarty wrote:Agreed. He was, though, very much strengthening his original statement rather than mellowing it, which is what I was trying to express.
What makes Mr Smith's statement so compelling for me is that it originated not in PDL but at home in his own house watching the BBC News and observing the McCs returning from PDL. Also, he wasn't alone, but was with his family in PDL. They all gave witness statements, though there was a variety of opinion as to how much was seen or who it might have been. He was startled to find himself recognising the man on the TV. Unusually, this wasn't a case where a known man was recognised as being in a certain place at a certain time. Rather, this was an unknown man whose behaviour recalled to Mr Smith the unknown man in PDL.
However, that he and his family were in PDL is incontestable. As is the fact they ALL saw a man carrying a child.
Yes, this sighting definitely exists and it's not going to go away... as Petermac said in another thread it's a real Problem...

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by BRODFB on 30.10.13 7:26

Code:
With regard to GM's 'praying Arab' act,  from another thread it appears this a Masonic gesture presumably performed to attract the attention of any Portuguese apron wearers who were in the vicinity.
Nope, not in England.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by TellTheTruth on 30.10.13 8:04

At the moment this is the most read story...laughat 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Joss on 30.10.13 8:20

@Silver Shuffle wrote:
@ProfMoriarty wrote:Agreed. He was, though, very much strengthening his original statement rather than mellowing it, which is what I was trying to express.
What makes Mr Smith's statement so compelling for me is that it originated not in PDL but at home in his own house watching the BBC News and observing the McCs returning from PDL. Also, he wasn't alone, but was with his family in PDL. They all gave witness statements, though there was a variety of opinion as to how much was seen or who it might have been. He was startled to find himself recognising the man on the TV. Unusually, this wasn't a case where a known man was recognised as being in a certain place at a certain time. Rather, this was an unknown man whose behaviour recalled to Mr Smith the unknown man in PDL.
However, that he and his family were in PDL is incontestable. As is the fact they ALL saw a man carrying a child.
Yes, this sighting definitely exists and it's not going to go away... as Petermac said in another thread it's a real Problem...
ITA, And the Smith sighting is the main focus right now in SY's investigation as to who the person is, and throwing it out there for the public to try and jog any memories of people that were there when Madeline went missing. To my knowledge there is no focus on anyone else, only the Smithman.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by rainbow1 on 30.10.13 8:24

@TellTheTruth wrote:At the moment this is the most read story...laughat 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/
I just noticed on the top of the article that they have added a recent update note.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Guest on 30.10.13 8:31

Telegraph artical is now 1 of the most viewed.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Miraflores on 30.10.13 8:33

Telegraph artical is now 1 of the most viewed.
With the update saying that Amiral's views have been widely discredited. Discredited by whom? 

Have they been got at or are they just covering their backs?

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Silver Shuffle on 30.10.13 8:34

@Joss wrote:
@Silver Shuffle wrote:
@ProfMoriarty wrote:Agreed. He was, though, very much strengthening his original statement rather than mellowing it, which is what I was trying to express.
What makes Mr Smith's statement so compelling for me is that it originated not in PDL but at home in his own house watching the BBC News and observing the McCs returning from PDL. Also, he wasn't alone, but was with his family in PDL. They all gave witness statements, though there was a variety of opinion as to how much was seen or who it might have been. He was startled to find himself recognising the man on the TV. Unusually, this wasn't a case where a known man was recognised as being in a certain place at a certain time. Rather, this was an unknown man whose behaviour recalled to Mr Smith the unknown man in PDL.
However, that he and his family were in PDL is incontestable. As is the fact they ALL saw a man carrying a child.
Yes, this sighting definitely exists and it's not going to go away... as Petermac said in another thread it's a real Problem...
ITA, And the Smith sighting is the main focus right now in SY's investigation as to who the person is, and throwing it out there for the public to try and jog any memories of people that were there when Madeline went missing. To my knowledge there is no focus on anyone else, only the Smithman.
Just hopefully Smithman isn't going to be the deceased ex employee that CM has in their Headlines this morning... Obviously waiting for the full Story... coffee

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Guest on 30.10.13 8:40

@Miraflores wrote:
Telegraph artical is now 1 of the most viewed.
With the update saying that Amiral's views have been widely discredited. Discredited by whom? 

Have they been got at or are they just covering their backs?
The original story is still there, may have been asked to give update!!

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by PeterMac on 30.10.13 8:43

@Okeydokey wrote:The papers have gone v. quiet on the McCann story. Does anyone else think that they might have been Carter-Rucked on Monday and are reviewing their position?
I doubt C-R would touch this one, even if TM had enough money. (Bear in mind C-R are a third of a million pounds DOWN after the TB fiasco - where he is paying them 14s/6d a month for the next thousand years)
Previously their case was about people saying there was no abduction.  And to deny that became, by implication, a statement that TM had lied, and therefore actionable.
But C-R had to admit, in the High Court and under oath, that they had no evidence of abduction, and climbed down except on the technical point of Breach of the Undertaking
There was no clear "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt", and therefore it was difficult to plead Truth as a defence.

Here the papers are saying that TM deliberately suppressed evidence and e-fits for 5 years, which might have been material to the "search" for Madeleine,
or more importantly to the investigation into the circumstances of what happened to her - which is not the same thing.
The "Fund" has provide the documentation, and no doubt there is a decent witness statement from Exton or Hagland or whoever about it.
So we are talking about the truth which must be accepted by TM, since it came from the documentation they had in their possession.
Truth is one of the big defences against an action for defamation.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by sami on 30.10.13 9:08

@PeterMac wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:The papers have gone v. quiet on the McCann story. Does anyone else think that they might have been Carter-Rucked on Monday and are reviewing their position?
It is equally quiet from the point of view of pink spin stories and subliminal messages about gypsies. 

I think it is Carter Ruck themselves who might be reviewing their own position.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Okeydokey on 30.10.13 9:08

@rainbow1 wrote:
@TellTheTruth wrote:At the moment this is the most read story...laughat 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/
I just noticed on the top of the article that they have added a recent update note.
That would add to the Carter Ruck letter on Monday theory!

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Okeydokey on 30.10.13 9:13

@sonic72 wrote:Still waiting for the BBC to report on this story..

They seem to be taking their time checking this story out..

I suspect they will avoid it like the plague, and prove once again, that they're not an unbiased news source..
I agree. The BBC has its own culture, it's not neutral. Currently the ruling idea is that the McCanns are victims of vicious tabloid reporting by the Murdoch press (Murdoch's Empire  being the BBC's arch rival).  Of course the BBC doesn't go in for the "incompetent foreign police" angle that lots of other media sources do, because that's not part of their ideology - they are pro EU and inclined to play down differences with other countries.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by aquila on 30.10.13 9:14

@PeterMac wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:The papers have gone v. quiet on the McCann story. Does anyone else think that they might have been Carter-Rucked on Monday and are reviewing their position?
I doubt C-R would touch this one, even if TM had enough money. (Bear in mind C-R are a third of a million pounds DOWN after the TB fiasco - where he is paying them 14s/6d a month for the next thousand years)
Previously their case was about people saying there was no abduction.  And to deny that became, by implication, a statement that TM had lied, and therefore actionable.
But C-R had to admit, in the High Court and under oath, that they had no evidence of abduction, and climbed down except on the technical point of Breach of the Undertaking
There was no clear "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt", and therefore it was difficult to plead Truth as a defence.

Here the papers are saying that TM deliberately suppressed evidence and e-fits for 5 years, which might have been material to the "search" for Madeleine,
or more importantly to the investigation into the circumstances of what happened to her - which is not the same thing.
The "Fund" has provide the documentation, and no doubt there is a decent witness statement from Exton or Hagland or whoever about it.
So we are talking about the truth which must be accepted by TM, since it came from the documentation they had in their possession.
Truth is one of the big defences against an action for defamation.
It might only be 14/6 (fourteen shillings and sixpence) to Carter Ruck PeterMac but it's a hefty sum of around £120 - £130 per month to Tony Bennett and will take years to pay (and I'm ignoring all the other costs Tony took on the nose).

I just want to say that when Tony was on trial there were so many people thanking him for his efforts, supporting him for his courage and wittering on about the injustice of it all. Several people on the forum attended the hearings.

The fact remains that whether you agree with Tony or not he has been left with a hefty financial burden and I doubt whether many of those who egged him on and sent their posts of support have ever contributed in anyway to alleviate this cost.

It's ok to harp on about Tony being the only person not to be able to comment on the case in case of breaching contempt of court rules and maybe I'm of the old school 'put your money where your mouth is' but I just want to point out that a million pounds to some people is peanuts (the McCanns have had a Fund that's handled millions) and a monthly outgoing of £120 to others is a great deal.

I don't always agree with Tony (as is obvious from my posts) but I thoroughly dislike the way he was bullied and gagged.

If anyone is interested in supporting Tony there is a fund to assist him. It's called C.O.L.D. just type it in the search box.

Sorry if I've gone off topic here.

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Bumped from the Libel Trial Thread

Post by PeterMac on 30.10.13 9:21

Dr Amaral and his team did get the messages.
@Swannie wrote:McCanns could face court over report
by Gerard Couzens
THE parents of Madeleine McCann faced further pressure yesterday after ex-police chief Goncalo Amaral hinted he may fight them in court over a key report they allegedly held back.
Gerry and Kate McCann were accused at the weekend of sidelining the 2008 report by former MI5 investigators they hired after it pinpointed ‘anomalies’ in statements they and their friends made.
The result was that e-fits of the prime suspect in Madeleine McCann’s abduction – hidden for five years in the unpublished report – were only made public this month during a new Met Police appeal.
The report said Irish holidaymaker Martin Smith’s sighting of a man carrying a girl in pyjamas near the McCann’s Algarve holiday apartment was ‘credible evidence’ which had been ‘neglected for too long.’
Mr Amaral’s lawyer said last night he was considering raising the issue in the couple’s ongoing libel trial against the former police.
The McCanns are seeking one million pounds in damages over the ex-detective’s claims in his July 2008 book The Truth of the Lie that they faked their daughter’s abduction to cover up her death in their holiday flat.
Vitor Santos de Oliveira, who is representing Mr Amaral, said: ‘We are aware of the revelations concerning this report by the McCanns’ former investigators and believe they are very important.
‘It is possible I may try to submit it as evidence to defend my client but I haven’t decided yet.
‘Nothing’s been ruled out. We are analysing the relevance of the report and considering our position. We have no intention of introducing irrelevant material into this case because we respect the McCanns as people and have no intention of harming them for sake of it,’ he said.
‘But I can tell you that if we feel something is relevant in disproving the McCanns’ claims about my client then we will have no hesitation in using it.
‘I think the revelations about the suppression of this report are very important with regards to the ongoing criminal case.
‘It’s a report written by McCann-hired investigators who make strong criticisms of the couple.
‘As far as the civil libel case is going we are very calm,’ Mr de Oliveira continued.
‘My client’s arguments in his book have been backed up in court by his former police colleagues who say it was the police position in 2008 when the book was published.’


The ongoing libel case launched by the McCanns against Mr Amaral is due to restart next Tuesday.

in Irish Daily Mail, 29 out 2013, paper edition
Thanks Swannie.

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