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WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by columbostogeys on 07.11.13 14:21

@RIPM wrote:Children bounce. I cannot imagine how a child falling down the back of a sofa would be dead within minutes. Even with a substantial skull fracture, it takes time. And there would be a lot of blood. A neck fracture, most unlikely given the forces involved.
dantezebu


Sorry to correct you but you are doing what you say we should not do, that is embellish facts.

Having attended many accidents and suicides, it is a ridiculous thing to say, children bounce.

There would be a lot of blood.........you have obviously not attended many accident scenes.  Sometimes there is a lot, sometimes there is very little or none

You cannot imagine that a child falling behind the back of a sofa would be dead in minutes....... but it does happen.
A very sensible post. Non of my children bounced especially when falling out of trees or bunk beds (broken bones sadly).

Sometimes it depends on how the person falls. One of my daughters friends died slipping off a pavement, she hit her head on the edge of the pavement and died instantly it was horrible tragedgy there are a lot like that. 

The one reason why i would never leave children unattended is because of FIRE. My husband actually saved 2 children many years ago. He was at work when a young boy came up to him (he was outside a mechanic working on a car), and said something like Mr, help my house is on fire, and my mummy has gone to the shops. My husband and his work colleague followed him and very close they came across the house with smoke billowing out. The door was open and he went in and saw a scary sight of the fire just rolling across the top of the ceiling and underneath were two little children huddled together crying. He doesnt know how he did it but he got them both out.

I would never leave my kids on their own, because of fire, it scares me. so many die in fires its horrible. That is why its important that people dont leave them on their own, they need supervising.

I thought this was interesting.....

http://www.rospa.com/homesafety/adviceandinformation/childsafety/accidents-to-children.aspx

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Guest on 07.11.13 14:42

Thank you for the link :-)

"Those most at risk from a home accident are the 0-4 years age group."

But, of course, a pair of doctors doesn't know that ...

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Okeydokey on 07.11.13 14:52

There was the case this week of a little girl dying in the playground because she fell with force on to a hard object in the playground - her liver was ruptured. I am sure there are all sorts of unusual injuries that can occur which are fatal but involve little blood loss. I remember with one of my children - how they loved to bounce on sofas, and go flying off in all directions. Under 5 they tend to be unaware of the potential consequences which is why they have to be watched the whole time when engaging in such play.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Guest on 07.11.13 15:07

@RIPM wrote:Children bounce. I cannot imagine how a child falling down the back of a sofa would be dead within minutes. Even with a substantial skull fracture, it takes time. And there would be a lot of blood. A neck fracture, most unlikely given the forces involved.
dantezebu


Sorry to correct you but you are doing what you say we should not do, that is embellish facts.

Having attended many accidents and suicides, it is a ridiculous thing to say, children bounce.

There would be a lot of blood.........you have obviously not attended many accident scenes.  Sometimes there is a lot, sometimes there is very little or none

You cannot imagine that a child falling behind the back of a sofa would be dead in minutes....... but it does happen.
Sorry, but it is not an embelishment. It is a fact. The skull is very strong, it takes a lot of force to damage it. Falling from a height, a car accident or a direct blow to the head. To die immediately from a skull frature, it would have to be be associated with considerable internal damage. Given that to injure her skull falling over the back of a sofa, Maddie would have been going head first, the height is not that great. Also given that to get into the position to be able to fall this way the arms would probably need to elevated (lessening the impact), and that she would have slipped and not launched herself over it. But not only that, she would have to have been hanging to some degree by the laws of gravity, over the back before she actually fell. Yes there may be a fracture, but to cause an immediate or near imediate death would not be likely in my experience. 
Your experience is obviously different RIPM.
But as I said, it's only my opinion.
Also cervical fractures in children are extremely rare, usually associated with severe blunt trauma. Usually in an RTA or NAI.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by columbostogeys on 07.11.13 15:09

@Okeydokey wrote:There was the case this week of a little girl dying in the playground because she fell with force on to a hard object in the playground - her liver was ruptured. I am sure there are all sorts of unusual injuries that can occur which are fatal but involve little blood loss. I remember with one of my children - how they loved to bounce on sofas, and go flying off in all directions. Under 5 they tend to be unaware of the potential consequences which is why they have to be watched the whole time when engaging in such play.
Exactly, children get into all kinds of scrapes even when your there. They have no fear thats the problem or perception of danger.

I actually thought what IF the child went out of the patio door to find her mum and dad, perhaps she was scared by a noise or something. Wasnt there a stair gate on the steps? Could she have tried to climb over it or the balustrade and fell onto the hard steps...

So many scenarios that could have happened.

Maybe she stood on the back of the settee and tried to stand on the window sill or get to stand on the window sill and fell awkwardly behind the settee she could have broken her neck anything.

I know its silly to keep saying it but they should neve have left them.

Actually what really upsets me is when they first came onto the T.V. that morning of the 4th, they not once said "whatever you do, dont do what we did, dont rely on your own listening services, use a night creche, or keep your children with you, but we made a MISTAKE, we thought it was safe to leave our daughter, and it wasnt....

They never did that. I would have had so much respect for them if they said that, instead all they did was make an excuse for leaving her. Mind you when I found out they had left her the same night she had spoken to her mother about her being on her own the night before crying then I am afraid any sympathy I had for them went flying out of the window. The only person who is or has suffered from this is the child herself.

I can never understand for the life of me how anyone after the fact could leave their 2 children again in a creche, with a possible puedo ring hanging about, or leave them and travel all over the place, leave them no way i would have them stuck to me for months.....

How could anyone do that?

Not all pedophiles are men actually there are a lot of women pedophile who work in creches....this creep for one.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/6258910/Nursery-paedophile-Vanessa-George-Ill-be-out-in-two-years.html

http://www.child-safety-for-parents.com/female-pedophile.html#.Unus0SfiuCk

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by russiandoll on 07.11.13 15:10

Who said anything about an immediate death ?  fwiw if there was a fall from that sofa, into the limited space between the sofa back and the wall, it could plausibly lead to a broken neck imo. Possibly more likely that a skull fracture.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by roy rovers on 07.11.13 15:19

@BRODFB wrote:
@Veritas wrote:BRODFB

Convenient, perhaps. But unrelated. Neither SY nor the MI's nor any in the FCO or the FO or the HO save for a few inconsequential figureheads change with the political colours. There's barely a sheet of paper's worth of difference between the political parties anyway. The wealth involved in this tells me that the impetus came, not from political allegiance but from a much more insidious conspirance. If this were a 'Labour' thing do you really think the same Cameronesque allegiance switching media elites like Murdoch wouldn't have used this case to gun the Blairite or Brownite governments down? These players are apolitical, always looking at bigger agendas. The question is why and how this case even appears on the radar of their schemes.
I was thinking more of the opportunity of associating the government of the day with what would appear to be a cause with mass public support to deflect attention away from unpopularity issues. Whatever they say politics is a popularity contest.
Yes control freak Gordon Brown certainly made a fool out of himself over this case during the early period of his premiership when he sought to appear to be pulling all the levers of power almost single handedly. He wouldn't have been in a hurry for the truth to emerge before the election that marked the end of his premiership.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Guest on 07.11.13 15:36

@russiandoll wrote:Who said anything about an immediate death ?  fwiw if there was a fall from that sofa, into the limited space between the sofa back and the wall, it could plausibly lead to a broken neck imo. Possibly more likely that a skull fracture.
If there was not an immediate death (or within 1 hour or so), then Maddie would have been alive when found (assuming that it occurred sometime between GMs last visit and KM finding her on the night of the 3rd, and not some previous occaision). Then what?
And to have a upper cervical injury or fracture so that death is near instantaneous, there needs to be some kind of severe whiplash effect. 
Yes there are instances when people die quickly from skull fractures, and internal injuries without external bleeding. I agree. But I am looking at the whole picture. And finding a child in this situation without any obvious external injuries, you can't imagine then picking it up and running out the door to hide it. 
If she did die in his way, it had to be another night.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by russiandoll on 07.11.13 15:44

I get it now, danteb... we disagree on the day M died, I believe it was earlier than 3rd, your post makes sense given the timeframe you give for her demise.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by sallypelt on 07.11.13 15:51

I am going to post this Daily Mail article (this is from the days before anyone was threatened with Carter-Ruck). It will fit in with the Libel trial and the McCann's claim that Dr Amaral's book hindered the search for Madeleine, because of his claim that the child was dead

Quote

The six-hour period forms a critical part of police attempts to build a case against the McCanns.

Detectives are convinced the couple were involved in their daughter's death and disappearance - and need to prove that the missing hours were used to hide Madeleine's body.

The McCanns have consistently described the allegations as "ludicrous".

So friends of the couple spoke out to counter police claims that detectives had been unable to confirm the whereabouts of Kate McCann and her daughter in the "missing" period.

UNQUOTE

You can read the full text here:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483207/McCanns-What-REALLY-happened-Madeleines-missing-hours.html



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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Guest on 07.11.13 15:57

@russiandoll wrote:I get it now, danteb... we disagree on the day M died, I believe it was earlier than 3rd, your post makes sense given the timeframe you give for her demise.
I think she died on a different day too. But I don't think it was behind the sofa. It could have been. But that is only one of the reasons for the dogs to mark this site. And that is how this scenario of falling behind the sofa has arisen, from the dogs.
I think it was possibly presented initially as a get out clause (trap) for the Mcs to admit to an accident at the least.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by PeterMac on 07.11.13 16:07

That extract is fascinating as it is directly OPPOSITE to what Kate put in the book a few years later.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by plebgate on 07.11.13 16:10

Welcome Veritas, I would also like to say how good your posts are.

Snipped from your second post -

"
Death and misery are generally tools for their furtherance. One paper might run a sad obituary for the dog, another might focus on the good works of the vicar, but outside the local rag the rest will be digging for history of animal neglect or insinuating, Spacey-esque, that there was something mysterious about a vicar taking Fido for a walk in the park at 2am."

That made me roar as I believe it is spot on .   Newspapers to a tee.    lol.

Marvellous post, I wanted to sit down with a nice 'ot cuppa and look forward to the next instalment.    big grin

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Pennypennypenny on 07.11.13 17:53

It's mind boggling to see old sky news clips and read the link in the daily mail when the media were convinced TM were involved in the disappearance of their daughter. What changed?

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Woburn_exile on 07.11.13 17:54

Châtelaine wrote:
@jcloth wrote:
***
LOL
I'm very confused now, I thought the chief suspect was Black.

wft wft 

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Guest on 07.11.13 17:55

@Pennypennypenny wrote:It's mind boggling to see old sky news clips and read the link in the daily mail when the media were convinced TM were involved in the disappearance of their daughter. What changed?
***
Carter Ruck?

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by ultimaThule on 07.11.13 18:03

@russiandoll wrote:Who said anything about an immediate death ?  fwiw if there was a fall from that sofa, into the limited space between the sofa back and the wall, it could plausibly lead to a broken neck imo. Possibly more likely that a skull fracture.
I made the observation that "Blunt force trauma can cause immediate death with little or no loss of blood" which should be read in context with the immediately preceding posts.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by ultimaThule on 07.11.13 18:21

@PeterMac wrote:That extract is fascinating as it is directly OPPOSITE to what Kate put in the book a few years later.
I also found it fascinating.  So divorced is it from any other account I've read of what was allegedly Madeleine's last day, that I believe it's worthy of further scrutiny:

McCanns: What REALLY happened in Madeleine's 'missing six hours'
by SAM GREENHILL and PAUL HARRIS in Praia da Luz and DAN NEWLING
Last updated at 20:36 22 September 2007

The first full account of Kate and Gerry McCann's final day with their daughter has finally emerged.
Friends broke a silence which had lasted more than four months to fill in the 'missing six hours' at the centre of police claims that the couple were involved in Madeleine's disappearance.
They spoke out after officers were revealed to be looking into apparent contradictions in what the 39-year-old doctors told detectives they did that day.
Scroll down for more...

Last picture: Madeleine at the pool with her father and sister


It caused an unexpected turnaround in the wall of secrecy which has protected their May 3 timeline for the previous 141 days.
The account finally filled the gap between 2.29pm - when Madeleine was pictured grinning by a swimming pool with her father and sister Amelie - and 8.30pm, when Kate McCann joined friends for a dinner party in the grounds of the holiday complex where they were staying.

Kate McCann (pictured this week): 'Ludicrous' allegations

What emerged was not just the previously unspoken detail to back up their story - but a poignant chronology of a summer day that turned to tragedy and grief.
The McCanns have been prevented from talking themselves about what they did that day because it is at the core of the police investigation.
The six-hour period forms a critical part of police attempts to build a case against the McCanns.
Detectives are convinced the couple were involved in their daughter's death and disappearance - and need to prove that the missing hours were used to hide Madeleine's body.

The McCanns have consistently described the allegations as "ludicrous".
So friends of the couple spoke out to counter police claims that detectives had been unable to confirm the whereabouts of Kate McCann and her daughter in the "missing" period.
They said the family had enjoyed a leisurely day, rising at 9.15am with breakfast, and Madeleine, Sean and Amelie eager to get on with the day.
The youngsters were put in the resort's Kids Club while their parents took a stroll before collecting them at 12.30pm for lunch back at the apartment.
In the afternoon, the McCanns played tennis while Madeleine went back to the creche after the photograph was taken at the swimming pool.

"There are records for that, written records, and witnesses," said a friend.
"Madeleine was there while Kate and Gerry played tennis with the tennis professional and other witnesses.
"Madeleine had high tea at 5.30pm with staff at the Kids Club. She was picked up shortly before 6pm by Kate and Gerry.
"After that Kate and Gerry went home, got the kids ready for bed and got ready to go out for their meal."
The friend insisted: "Kate was never alone with Madeleine that afternoon. There were always other witnesses present. These details were all given to detectives during police interviews, so they know what Kate and Gerry said happened that day."

The new account contradicts previous reports from two waiters and the owner of the Paraiso restaurant in Praia da Luz who insisted they were "certain" Madeleine had eaten her last meal there, and watched her excitedly dance with her father by the icecream freezer.

Asked to comment, the McCanns' official spokesman Clarence Mitchell said Portugal's strict 'secrecy of justice' laws prevented the couple from speaking about the investigation.
"We cannot and will not comment on any matters that go to the heart of the police investigation. However my understanding is that these particular reports, about the restaurant are inaccurate."

The denial was made despite the McCanns being aware of the CCTV claims and being told yesterday that they were being used to illustrate alleged conflicts in their version of events.
It was also pointed out that, if anything, the claim that Madeleine was seen happy and excited at 6pm could only help the McCanns as they battle against the police theory that they killed Madeleine and mounted a cover-up.
So they would have no reason to deny it unless it was genuinely wrong, it was said.

Although restaurant staff are convinced they are right, it is possible they got the day wrong or simply made a mistake in identifying the McCanns during a busy week when the resort was full of British families.

'PUT UP OR SHUT UP'

Kate and Gerry McCann are preparing for a lengthy legal battle which could last years.
A source close to them said: "The ball is in the Portuguese police's court - they need to put up or shut up."
Since they were made official suspects in the disappearance of four-year-old Madeleine more than four months ago, the McCanns have employed four highpowered lawyers - two Portuguese and two British.
The couple spent six hours on Thursday in consultation with their lawyers in London.
However, according to the family source they remain uncertain as to what - if any - charge they are likely to face.
"It is still very uncertain what we are dealing with here. To a certain extent we are fighting in the dark."

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Daisy on 07.11.13 19:04

@Pennypennypenny wrote:It's mind boggling to see old sky news clips and read the link in the daily mail when the media were convinced TM were involved in the disappearance of their daughter. What changed?
Isn't it just. What changed? Well the high & mighty got involved and I'm talking beyond Prime Ministers and such (imo). I wonder why.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Guest on 07.11.13 19:10

I remember seeing that clip with Martin Brunt saying that Kate was to be charged with "Madeleine's accidental death" and not being surprised. It wasn't because I knew anything about all the inconsistencies but because, in so many other cases, someone in the family is involved.

Then nothing more was heard about it and I must have thought that the report was incorrect.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Guest on 07.11.13 19:46

@ultimaThule wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:That extract is fascinating as it is directly OPPOSITE to what Kate put in the book a few years later.
Asked to comment, the McCanns' official spokesman Clarence Mitchell said Portugal's strict 'secrecy of justice' laws prevented the couple from speaking about the investigation.
"We cannot and will not comment on any matters that go to the heart of the police investigation. However my understanding is that these particular reports, about the restaurant are inaccurate."

Brilliant. He says he cannot and will not comment, and then in the very next breath he does. What a scumbag.

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is this May 3rd being discussed?

Post by worriedmum on 07.11.13 20:09

"There are records for that, written records, and witnesses," said a friend.
"Madeleine was there while Kate and Gerry played tennis with the tennis professional and other witnesses.
"Madeleine had high tea at 5.30pm with staff at the Kids Club. She was picked up shortly before 6pm by Kate and Gerry.
"After that Kate and Gerry went home, got the kids ready for bed and got ready to go out for their meal."


PARDON?

What about Gerry's tennis game and David Payne's visit? Have I read this incorrectly?

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by ProfessorPPlum on 07.11.13 20:43

@worriedmum wrote:"There are records for that, written records, and witnesses," said a friend.
"Madeleine was there while Kate and Gerry played tennis with the tennis professional and other witnesses.
"Madeleine had high tea at 5.30pm with staff at the Kids Club. She was picked up shortly before 6pm by Kate and Gerry.
"After that Kate and Gerry went home, got the kids ready for bed and got ready to go out for their meal."


PARDON?

What about Gerry's tennis game and David Payne's visit? Have I read this incorrectly?
No you havent!

The question that strikes me is "Where did Gerry's tennis game and David Payne's 30 sec / 30 min visit subsequently come from?!"

Without going back to all the statements, I can safely say "I have NO idea". One thing I do keep noticing is that people STILL fall into the trap of believing little things the McCanns said. For example, someone on this (or another thread) put forward a theory of what happened which had - built in to it - the unquestioned assertion that there actually was a "Why didn't you come when Sean and I were crying?" question. 

I've said before but I discount EVERYTHING the McCanns say happened. Including the tennis game, the Payne visit (particularly since neither could agree what actually was 'supposed' to have happened).

I can spot at least 3 extremely dubious things we've been told about 3 May. First, the pool photo (referred to in this 2007 piece) starring a very alive Madeleine. Second, the "Why didn't you come when...?" question from a very alive Madeleine. Third, the visit by David Payne to a be-towelled Kate and a very alive, very pretty and perfect Madeleine.

ETA - those three things alone are enough to set me thinking about a pre-May 3rd demise as a distinct possibility, alongside the alternative idea of a 'May 3rd demise and rushed cover up' that seems to explain the amount of discrepancies between the accounts.

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Guest on 07.11.13 21:18

A May 2 evening/night demise would have given a cover-up scenario more time, but not necessarily water-tight writing and quality staging ...  It's always a risk working with amateurs ;-)

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Re: WOW A MUST READ -Madeleine clues hidden for five years - Sunday Times Full article now on Page 1

Post by Guest on 07.11.13 21:20

@ProfessorPPlum wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:"There are records for that, written records, and witnesses," said a friend.
"Madeleine was there while Kate and Gerry played tennis with the tennis professional and other witnesses.
"Madeleine had high tea at 5.30pm with staff at the Kids Club. She was picked up shortly before 6pm by Kate and Gerry.
"After that Kate and Gerry went home, got the kids ready for bed and got ready to go out for their meal."


PARDON?

What about Gerry's tennis game and David Payne's visit? Have I read this incorrectly?
No you havent!

The question that strikes me is "Where did Gerry's tennis game and David Payne's 30 sec / 30 min visit subsequently come from?!"

Without going back to all the statements, I can safely say "I have NO idea". One thing I do keep noticing is that people STILL fall into the trap of believing little things the McCanns said. For example, someone on this (or another thread) put forward a theory of what happened which had - built in to it - the unquestioned assertion that there actually was a "Why didn't you come when Sean and I were crying?" question. 

I've said before but I discount EVERYTHING the McCanns say happened. Including the tennis game, the Payne visit (particularly since neither could agree what actually was 'supposed' to have happened).

I can spot at least 3 extremely dubious things we've been told about 3 May. First, the pool photo (referred to in this 2007 piece) starring a very alive Madeleine. Second, the "Why didn't you come when...?" question from a very alive Madeleine. Third, the visit by David Payne to a be-towelled Kate and a very alive, very pretty and perfect Madeleine.

ETA - those three things alone are enough to set me thinking about a pre-May 3rd demise as a distinct possibility, alongside the alternative idea of a 'May 3rd demise and rushed cover up' that seems to explain the amount of discrepancies between the accounts.
Have you read Pat Browns blog of today?

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