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Justice or Whitewash?

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Justice or a whitewash?

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by Newintown on 10.06.14 19:19

@Jauna Loca wrote:For the first time too I now feel it is a whitewash. That SY are preparing the public for a stalemate ending says it all.
Very disappointed.

So in fact you're saying that you agree with GM that the findings of Eddie and Keela are useless and the evidence they found in the McCann's apartment 5A cannot be taken as substantial evidence and any other findings by cadaver and blood sniffer dogs can be ignored in any future cases.

So evidence found by the dogs is just pushed aside and ignored because SY and PJ can't be bothered to take it any further and take into the account the contradictory statements given by the Tapas 9.

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"Never trust an eyewitness whose memory gets better over time"


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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by Guest on 10.06.14 19:26

dantezebu wrote:SY would have a considerable problem to whitewash this. 
Simply because of the alerts of Eddie to human decomposition in 5a.
They are using dogs as we speak. They must have faith in the dogs ability. How can they dismiss Eddie's findings? All of them? All of the other cases where dogs have been or will be used.
And this is where the MC's shot themselves in the foot with their "checking" story.
I really don't believe that TM ever realised the capabilities of cadaver dogs. I don't even think they thought they would be used inside the flat. And if they did they didn't realise the time scale for detecting cadaverine.
In providing the checking story they excluded the possibility of any burglar, drug addict or paedophile entering and murdering Madeleine in the apartment. They were just covering the base for an abduction, not a murder. 
There was not time in ROB's handy time-lines for it to have happened.
Could they back track now and say MO didn't do his check 5a at 9.30 ish? That GM didn't have his proud father moment at 9.15?

Through all this debate I keep reminding myself of the words of Andy Redwood when he said "abduction may not follow with all our thinking".

Exactly. Why bother training these dogs at considerable cost, why bother using them if they are going to ignore their findings. They are using them more and more, which means the police have great faith in their ability to detect what they are supposed to. So how can the findings in PDL be ignored.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by elasticandy on 10.06.14 19:43

candyfloss wrote:
dantezebu wrote:SY would have a considerable problem to whitewash this. 
Simply because of the alerts of Eddie to human decomposition in 5a.
They are using dogs as we speak. They must have faith in the dogs ability. How can they dismiss Eddie's findings? All of them? All of the other cases where dogs have been or will be used.
And this is where the MC's shot themselves in the foot with their "checking" story.
I really don't believe that TM ever realised the capabilities of cadaver dogs. I don't even think they thought they would be used inside the flat. And if they did they didn't realise the time scale for detecting cadaverine.
In providing the checking story they excluded the possibility of any burglar, drug addict or paedophile entering and murdering Madeleine in the apartment. They were just covering the base for an abduction, not a murder. 
There was not time in ROB's handy time-lines for it to have happened.
Could they back track now and say MO didn't do his check 5a at 9.30 ish? That GM didn't have his proud father moment at 9.15?

Through all this debate I keep reminding myself of the words of Andy Redwood when he said "abduction may not follow with all our thinking".

Exactly.  Why bother training these dogs at considerable cost, why bother using them if they are going to ignore their findings.  They are using them more and more, which means the police have great faith in their ability to detect what they are supposed to.  So how can the findings in PDL be ignored.
if the dogs had provided sufficient evidence the police could act - there needs to be genuine chance of conviction for this to go to court. the leaked analysis shows less than enough for a conviction. the police sy/pj need more convincing evidence.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by Guest on 10.06.14 19:46

@Jauna Loca wrote:For the first time too I now feel it is a whitewash. That SY are preparing the public for a stalemate ending says it all.
Very disappointed.
In these days where there is much confusion and misdirection from an uninformed MSM it is easy to believe in a whitewash.
However the way I see it: 
The only way there will be a stalemate is if there is not enough evidence to prosecute the MC's.
There cannot be a whitewash, you cannot make evidence disappear as much as the MC's want it to.
The evidence points in only one direction. 
Any evidence that may be found now can only also point in that direction.
To doubt this is to doubt where the guilt lies.
If nothing is found it doesn't change the situation.
I will not subscribe to the idea that the PJ or SY would plant evidence. So I believe no evidence will be found that incriminates another party.
I have confidence in my belief of their guilt so I cannot accept there will be a whitewash.
Maybe the case will be shelved again, but the finger can only ever point in one direction.
I can live with that. 

ETA this is not an advert for a really crappy pop group.  laughat

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by Jauna Loca on 10.06.14 19:56

@Newintown wrote:So in fact you're saying that you agree with GM that the findings of Eddie and Keela are useless and the evidence they found in the McCann's apartment 5A cannot be taken as substantial evidence and any other findings by cadaver and blood sniffer dogs can be ignored in any future cases.

So evidence found by the dogs is just pushed aside and ignored because SY and PJ can't be bothered to take it any further and take into the account the contradictory statements given by the Tapas 9

No, I believe the dogs but I think Eddie and Keela will be kept under wraps by the MSM and a passing paedo will be blamed for any evidence found outside the appartment.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong but to me at the moment it looks like a "can't find a body so can't solve it" ending. I do not know what political protection the McCanns seem to have,
but political intervention shelved the case once and it seems to be gearing up for a patsy/whitewash. There is so much evidence already pointing in one direction it seems like
willful ignorance to go chasing every other (mis)lead instead. All this IMO of course, and I would dearly love to be wrong.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by elasticandy on 10.06.14 19:58

dantezebu wrote:
@Jauna Loca wrote:For the first time too I now feel it is a whitewash. That SY are preparing the public for a stalemate ending says it all.
Very disappointed.
In these days where there is much confusion and misdirection from an uninformed MSM it is easy to believe in a whitewash.
However the way I see it: 
The only way there will be a stalemate is if there is not enough evidence to prosecute the MC's.
There cannot be a whitewash, you cannot make evidence disappear as much as the MC's want it to.
The evidence points in only one direction. 
Any evidence that may be found now can only also point in that direction.
To doubt this is to doubt where the guilt lies.
If nothing is found it doesn't change the situation.
I will not subscribe to the idea that the PJ or SY would plant evidence. So I believe no evidence will be found that incriminates another party.
I have confidence in my belief of their guilt so I cannot accept there will be a whitewash.
Maybe the case will be shelved again, but the finger can only ever point in one direction.
I can live with that. 

ETA this is not an advert for a really crappy pop group.  laughat
IMO - if the dogs had provided sufficient evidence the police could act - there needs to be genuine chance of conviction for this to go to court. the leaked analysis shows less than enough for a conviction. the police sy/pj need more convincing evidence. justice requires proof a whitewash is normally (guarded notion) between a few over the many - the age of new media has taken the lid of many whitewashes imo.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by Newintown on 10.06.14 20:11

@Jauna Loca wrote:
@Newintown wrote:So in fact you're saying that you agree with GM that the findings of Eddie and Keela are useless and the evidence they found in the McCann's apartment 5A cannot be taken as substantial evidence and any other findings by cadaver and blood sniffer dogs can be ignored in any future cases.

So evidence found by the dogs is just pushed aside and ignored because SY and PJ can't be bothered to take it any further and take into the account the contradictory statements given by the Tapas 9

No, I believe the dogs but I think Eddie and Keela will be kept under wraps by the MSM and a passing paedo will be blamed for any evidence found outside the appartment.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong but to me at the moment it looks like a "can't find a body so can't solve it" ending. I do not know what political protection the McCanns seem to have,
but political intervention shelved the case once and it seems to be gearing up for a patsy/whitewash. There is so much evidence already pointing in one direction it seems like
willful ignorance to go chasing every other (mis)lead instead. All this IMO of course, and I would dearly love to be wrong.

There have been a number of cases where a body has not been found but the evidence has been brought to Court on the findings of cadaver dogs.

If SY and PJ are doing a serious investigation into the disappearance of a 3 year old child, they have to cover all eventualities, even information regarding drug dealers etc etc which may have been passed to them by ?????? to divert them away from the people they should be investigating.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by Jauna Loca on 10.06.14 20:37

Thanks Newintown for the glimmer of hope. You're right of course, it just seems so frustrating listening to all the MSM crap!!

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by Watching The Detectives on 10.06.14 20:49

Justice.

Despite the heat, and long days of tiring manual work, the working relationships seemed good between all the British and Portuguese involved in the searches.

We have no real idea what was found. Tents covered search areas. A lot seemed to be taken away for examination.

The task of SY is to solve the crime. Not to supply headlines for the papers nor to keep us informed of every development.

If every piece of evidence uncovered was made public this would just give those guilty a chance to confer and develop explanations, prior to any related questioning taking place.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by missmar1 on 10.06.14 21:44

dantezebu wrote:
@Jauna Loca wrote:For the first time too I now feel it is a whitewash. That SY are preparing the public for a stalemate ending says it all.
Very disappointed.
In these days where there is much confusion and misdirection from an uninformed MSM it is easy to believe in a whitewash.
However the way I see it: 
The only way there will be a stalemate is if there is not enough evidence to prosecute the MC's.
There cannot be a whitewash, you cannot make evidence disappear as much as the MC's want it to.
The evidence points in only one direction. 
Any evidence that may be found now can only also point in that direction.
To doubt this is to doubt where the guilt lies.
If nothing is found it doesn't change the situation.
I will not subscribe to the idea that the PJ or SY would plant evidence. So I believe no evidence will be found that incriminates another party.
I have confidence in my belief of their guilt so I cannot accept there will be a whitewash.
Maybe the case will be shelved again, but the finger can only ever point in one direction.
I can live with that. 

ETA this is not an advert for a really crappy pop group.  laughat
 
I agree with you....also, if this case does get shelved again, then even more files will be released for the public to read - what happens then ?   

 Imo, even if the two police forces eventually bow out of this case because of lack of evidence to prosecute anyone,  the ever growing numbers who are learning more and more previously unknown details of this case ( which now seem to be getting out into the public domain  )  will continue to keep it going and will be asking even more questions due to the released files.   

I dont think the people who are determined to get justice will ever allow this case to go cold...just my opinion only.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by missmar1 on 10.06.14 22:21

Just a thought,  hope its wrong, but what if the two forces are not working on the same lines ?  What if SY are looking to wind this case down after a big  public show of going off to Portugal to dig ?   Makes you wonder if the Portuguise are letting SY pay for the digs and waiting to see how it all pans out ?

It may be that the Portuguise are waiting to see if SK claim it has done all it can and no-one is charged  - Without enough evidence to bring any prosecutions themselves,  the Portuguise might then shelve the case and release previously unseen files that may be very damming to the Mccann's ?  While also at the same time making SY look very inept ?
Just a thought ....and all my opinion only

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by worriedmum on 29.08.14 12:03

The 'make or break' time story is running in the MSM at the moment... has anyone who has posted had comments allowed?

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by TheTruthWillOut on 29.08.14 13:35

I accept a whitewash is very possible BUT currently think it isn't.

The McCanns were demanding a review for a long time (why? double bluff?) and were told no by at least two? home secretaries before Cameron jumped in when RB got involved.

The case was then reviewed for a good while before being upgraded to an investigation, which has been going for 3+ years.

I just can't see how the above simplified sequence of events can equal a whitewash? If the M's were/are being protected why didn't the government tell them to shut up, thank your lucky stars we got you out the situation and get on with life?

If it turns out that this re-investigation ends (as it seems to be ATM) in....we tried our best and there's nothing more we can do, what has this long and expensive investigation achieved? 

The only thing I can think of that fits with the above is if the perps are someone other than the Tapas 9, at least directly AND somebody/something of a very sensitive nature that required government handling from the very beginning.

What that could be has bothered me for 7 years and can't for the life of me think what could be so big as to require such massive government intervention. And there have been some big revelations in the last 7 years....

Next month is a big month in all this, I think.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by sar on 29.08.14 16:21

@TheTruthWillOut wrote:I accept a whitewash is very possible BUT currently think it isn't.

The McCanns were demanding a review for a long time (why? double bluff?) and were told no by at least two? home secretaries before Cameron jumped in when RB got involved.

The case was then reviewed for a good while before being upgraded to an investigation, which has been going for 3+ years.

I just can't see how the above simplified sequence of events can equal a whitewash? If the M's were/are being protected why didn't the government tell them to shut up, thank your lucky stars we got you out the situation and get on with life?

If it turns out that this re-investigation ends (as it seems to be ATM) in....we tried our best and there's nothing more we can do, what has this long and expensive investigation achieved? 

The only thing I can think of that fits with the above is if the perps are someone other than the Tapas 9, at least directly AND somebody/something of a very sensitive nature that required government handling from the very beginning.

What that could be has bothered me for 7 years and can't for the life of me think what could be so big as to require such massive government intervention. And there have been some big revelations in the last 7 years....

Next month is a big month in all this, I think.
I'll second that, there will be big news before the next few days are out, anything has to be "bedded in" each outlet has a leadtime, websites & dalies / print sunday eds, tv etc

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by Woofer on 29.08.14 22:09

I`m still holding on to hope because of our CPS top brass travelling to Portugal last year.  They would only go surely if a case was being prepared against UK citizens.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by Realist on 14.04.16 12:22

@Newintown wrote:


So in fact you're saying that you agree with GM that the findings of Eddie and Keela are useless and the evidence they found in the McCann's apartment 5A cannot be taken as substantial evidence and any other findings by cadaver and blood sniffer dogs can be ignored in any future cases.

So evidence found by the dogs is just pushed aside and ignored because SY and PJ can't be bothered to take it any further and take into the account the contradictory statements given by the Tapas 9.
The findings of canines will always be useful in any walk of life, but with respect to criminal proceedings, they can only ever be used as an indication, if for no other reason, they can't give evidence in a court of law on their respective fields of expertise, neither can they be cross examined.

Furthermore, contradictory statements don't constitute evidence.

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Justice or Whitewash

Post by willowthewisp on 17.04.16 11:45

@Realist wrote:
@Newintown wrote:


So in fact you're saying that you agree with GM that the findings of Eddie and Keela are useless and the evidence they found in the McCann's apartment 5A cannot be taken as substantial evidence and any other findings by cadaver and blood sniffer dogs can be ignored in any future cases.

So evidence found by the dogs is just pushed aside and ignored because SY and PJ can't be bothered to take it any further and take into the account the contradictory statements given by the Tapas 9.
The findings of canines will always be useful in any walk of life, but with respect to criminal proceedings, they can only ever be used as an indication, if for no other reason, they can't give evidence in a court of law on their respective fields of expertise, neither can they be cross examined.

Furthermore, contradictory statements don't constitute evidence.
Hi Realist,"Contradictory statements don't constitute evidence", if statements are contradictory, they must be evidence of a verbal conversation given to people employed by the regulated Authorities in pursuance of any Criminal activity that has been perpetrated in the event of possible future prosecutions and can be used as evidence in a Court of Law, as a statement of Facts?

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by whodunit on 17.04.16 16:59

@Realist wrote:
@Newintown wrote:


So in fact you're saying that you agree with GM that the findings of Eddie and Keela are useless and the evidence they found in the McCann's apartment 5A cannot be taken as substantial evidence and any other findings by cadaver and blood sniffer dogs can be ignored in any future cases.

So evidence found by the dogs is just pushed aside and ignored because SY and PJ can't be bothered to take it any further and take into the account the contradictory statements given by the Tapas 9.
The findings of canines will always be useful in any walk of life, but with respect to criminal proceedings, they can only ever be used as an indication, if for no other reason, they can't give evidence in a court of law on their respective fields of expertise, neither can they be cross examined.

Furthermore, contradictory statements don't constitute evidence.


We civilians studying the case are not a court of law. What do the findings of the dogs indicate to YOU? Do they lead you to hold a particular opinion about the case? If not why not?

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by Realist on 19.04.16 12:58

Please delete, repeat posting.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by Realist on 19.04.16 13:07

@willowthewisp wrote:

Hi Realist,"Contradictory statements don't constitute evidence", if statements are contradictory, they must be evidence of a verbal conversation given to people employed by the regulated Authorities in pursuance of any Criminal activity that has been perpetrated in the event of possible future prosecutions and can be used as evidence in a Court of Law, as a statement of Facts?
I agree, of course they can be used in evidence, but only in the event that there is substantive evidence to support an indictment. Perhaps, I should have stated, 'Contradictory statements don't constitute evidence for a prima facia case on their own.' There has to be a prima facia case before there can be an indictment followed by a trial where they can be introduced as evidence.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by Realist on 19.04.16 13:23

@whodunit wrote:



We civilians studying the case are not a court of law. What do the findings of the dogs indicate to YOU? Do they lead you to hold a particular opinion about the case? If not why not?
The findings of the dogs indicate to me that there was a corpse in the McCann's apt. In the vein that there was no history of anyone else dying in the aforementioned, it is a violent presumption that it was that of their daughter, Madeleine.

Nevertheless, in legal terms, this cannot be classified as evidence, only an indication for the reasons previously stated. I am certainly not a McCann sympathiser, but by the same hypothesis, neither am I a fantasist and am only interested in reality, hence my chosen username.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by whodunit on 21.04.16 22:43

@Realist wrote:
@whodunit wrote:



We civilians studying the case are not a court of law. What do the findings of the dogs indicate to YOU? Do they lead you to hold a particular opinion about the case? If not why not?
The findings of the dogs indicate to me that there was a corpse in the McCann's apt. In the vein that there was no history of anyone else dying in the aforementioned, it is a violent presumption that it was that of their daughter, Madeleine.

Nevertheless, in legal terms, this cannot be classified as evidence, only an indication for the reasons previously stated. I am certainly not a McCann sympathiser, but by the same hypothesis, neither am I a fantasist and am only interested in reality, hence my chosen username.

So let me get this straight. According to you:

It is a 'violent presumption' to think the corpse indicated by the dogs was MBM?

People who believe the dog findings indicate a corpse are fantasists?

Most courts hold that cadaver dog alerts must be corroborated. This means biological material of some kind must be found in the spot/area where the dogs alert. You are aware that biological material, that was tested in labs, was found in the spot/area where the dogs alerted in the apartment and in the rental car? Results were firm at first but morphed into ambiguous. The disputed identity of the person who deposited the biological material in the areas indicated by the cadaver [and blood] dog notwithstanding, that a corpse had most certainly lain in those spots/areas is surely beyond dispute.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by MayMuse on 21.04.16 23:54

Was it just an assumption? Evidence of blood/fluids etc would collaborate with this, wouldn't it? The dogs are used as 'intelligences ' in many proven cases. Why would this 'finding' be any different. If I was shown that 'video' I would be asking what it meant & fearing my child was dead... Not dismissing them as 'unreliable, or discounting a 'possibility' that something terrible had happened to Madeleine when they left her alone ( if they ever did). I always find that the McCanns protest too much on everything and anything that moves away from their 'theory' ( which is all it is as there is zero evidence) of an 'abduction'!  Never was it explained either, why Dna had to be sourced from a pillowslip from Madeleines bed in Rothley,  when there should have been 'oodles' in Portugal!

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by Realist on 22.04.16 1:11

@whodunit wrote:


So let me get this straight. According to you:

It is a 'violent presumption' to think the corpse indicated by the dogs was MBM?

That is correct.

People who believe the dog findings indicate a corpse are fantasists?

No and that has never been my assertion

Most courts hold that cadaver dog alerts must be corroborated.

I don't know of any that don't

This means biological material of some kind must be found in the spot/area where the dogs alert. You are aware that biological material, that was tested in labs, was found in the spot/area where the dogs alerted in the apartment and in the rental car? Results were firm at first but morphed into ambiguous. The disputed identity of the person who deposited the biological material in the areas indicated by the cadaver [and blood] dog notwithstanding, that a corpse had most certainly lain in those spots/areas is surely beyond dispute.

I am aware that the laboratory tests were inconclusive and by inconclusive, I mean that there weren't sufficient identification points to identify the findings as being those of Madeleine McCann, or for that matter, anyone else. Had the test results been conclusive, undoubtably the McCanns would have been charged at the time. I think the paramount difference between our opinions are that I am only interested in tangible evidence which is admissible in a court of law, whereas you appear to only be willing to deal in fantasy, speculation and to a degree, distortion of the facts..

This really is a very simple case to understand, but difficult to prove. All the fantasists are achieving is providing ammunition for the opposition to dismiss them as cranks. Gerry McCann's philosophy is, yes of course we are guilty, but prove it and all these wild conspiracy theories don't achieve anything other than to detract from the real issue, which is of course, to find tangible evidence which is admissible in a court of law. Therein lies the difficulty.

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Re: Justice or Whitewash?

Post by whodunit on 22.04.16 2:57

@Realist wrote:
@whodunit wrote:


So let me get this straight. According to you:

It is a 'violent presumption' to think the corpse indicated by the dogs was MBM?

That is correct.

People who believe the dog findings indicate a corpse are fantasists?

No and that has never been my assertion

Most courts hold that cadaver dog alerts must be corroborated.

I don't know of any that don't

This means biological material of some kind must be found in the spot/area where the dogs alert. You are aware that biological material, that was tested in labs, was found in the spot/area where the dogs alerted in the apartment and in the rental car? Results were firm at first but morphed into ambiguous. The disputed identity of the person who deposited the biological material in the areas indicated by the cadaver [and blood] dog notwithstanding, that a corpse had most certainly lain in those spots/areas is surely beyond dispute.

I am aware that the laboratory tests were inconclusive and by inconclusive, I mean that there weren't sufficient identification points to identify the findings as being those of Madeleine McCann, or for that matter, anyone else. Had the test results been conclusive, undoubtably the McCanns would have been charged at the time. I think the paramount difference between our opinions are that I am only interested in tangible evidence which is admissible in a court of law, whereas you appear to only be willing to deal in fantasy, speculation and to a degree, distortion of the facts..

This really is a very simple case to understand, but difficult to prove. All the fantasists are achieving is providing ammunition for the opposition to dismiss them as cranks. Gerry McCann's philosophy is, yes of course we are guilty, but prove it and all these wild conspiracy theories don't achieve anything other than to detract from the real issue, which is of course, to find tangible evidence which is admissible in a court of law. Therein lies the difficulty.


You must be new. A little advice: If you wish to be mistaken for a sincere person, you should scale back your use of words and phrases like 'wild conspiracy theories' and 'fantasists'. At least try and restrain yourself to every other post instead of  unleashing each time your fingers hit the keyboard. Oh, and stop pretending to be so concerned that we will be dismissed as 'cranks'.

"Had the test results been conclusive, undoubtably the McCanns would have been charged at the time."

You're hilarious.

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