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SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

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Why are there 17 similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by Nereid on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:47 pm

@Gillyspot wrote:Perhaps we should question why "R o'b" "poorly daughter" needs to appear on Maddie's "abduction" timeline"??


ETA - On second version only- ON 1st version it would seem that R O'B did check with MO. - What a tangled web we weave.
Very good point! Not really relevant in the great scheme of a missing little girl!

RoB and JT didn't seem to think their poorly daughter was so important that one of them forfeited their night out with friends, but yet thought it important enough to add to the timeline.

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by Tony Bennett on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:49 pm

@russiandoll wrote:Tony you have misunderstood one thing. I never said I believe that ROB was carrying Ella. but Gerry. I have reasons why I believe this and will set them out tomorrow, way too tired now!
Yes, my mistake. Now I find it even more diffiicult to believe.

Is this right?

...Gerry McCann went to Ella's bed...

...or one of her parents brought her to Gerry..

...he picked her up in her pyjamas...

...which were pinkish...

...walked out of the Tapas bar/Ocean Club carrying Ella...

...walked towards the beach...

....was seen by the Smiths...

...and Martin Smith said later he was 60% to 80% sure they'd seen Gerry McCann...

...Gerry Mccann must have 'not looked like a tourist'...

...must have been wearing a dark jacket...

..,and light-coloured trousers...

...then Gerry McCann came back carrying Ella in his arms...

...probably he must have been walking like this for at least 20 minutes

...and during this time...

...not one other person reported seeing him carrying Ella...?

...and he did all this as 'a decoy'?


I must admit I am just as mystified


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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by Nereid on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:50 pm

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Nereid wrote:Tony, why do you think someone would drag their 12 year old daughter to Portugal to make a statement, when he didn't want to drag his wife there? Surely the two statements of him and his son would have been sufficient?
 What is the name of the 12-year-old 'daughter'?

I thought there was an adult daughter who made a statement.

I thought the 12-year-old granddaughter was said to be present at the 'Smith sighting' but did not actually make a statement.

I thought the three making statements were Martin Smith and his son and daughter. How old were they?

Am I wrong?    
The name of the 12 year old daughter is Aoife, the one who made the statement. Peter is Martin's son, brother of Aoife.
Do you understand my confusion now? It must have been so traumatic for this poor girl to be dragged to Portugal to make a statement about a possible abductor. Surely a father would not do that to his daughter if it was to protect a 'friend'.

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:51 pm

Who wasn't at the table from 9.30? ROB
He returns to the table on one time-line at 9.53, and not on another.
And the ella crossing out, or even the presence of it in the first place is strange. 
I still thing it reads like a script.

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by sami on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:58 pm

@Nereid wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Nereid wrote:Tony, why do you think someone would drag their 12 year old daughter to Portugal to make a statement, when he didn't want to drag his wife there? Surely the two statements of him and his son would have been sufficient?
 What is the name of the 12-year-old 'daughter'?

I thought there was an adult daughter who made a statement.

I thought the 12-year-old granddaughter was said to be present at the 'Smith sighting' but did not actually make a statement.

I thought the three making statements were Martin Smith and his son and daughter. How old were they?

Am I wrong?    
The name of the 12 year old daughter is Aoife, the one who made the statement.
Do you understand my confusion now? It must have been so traumatic for this poor girl to be dragged to Portugal to make a statement about a possible abductor. Surely a father would not do that to his daughter if it was to protect a 'friend'.
Aoife smith is Martin Smiths daughter.

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by Tony Bennett on Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:21 am

@Nereid wrote:The name of the 12 year old daughter is Aoife, the one who made the statement.
Do you understand my confusion now? It must have been so traumatic for this poor girl to be dragged to Portugal to make a statement about a possible abductor. Surely a father would not do that to his daughter if it was to protect a 'friend'.
Thank you. I must admit I have thought all along that Aofie was much older.

I have once again checked her statement, the relevant parts of which are:

++++++++++

Around 22H00, they left Kelly's Bar. The group headed, on foot, for their apartment.
— Questioned, she responds that she knows the time that they left because her father and her brother decided to leave early that night. There were two reasons for this: one was the fact that her sister-in-law was not feeling very well and the other was because her brother, sister-in-law, nephew and son of her sister-in-law finished their holiday the next day and had to catch the morning flight returning to Ireland.
— Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.
The deponent crossed to the other side of Rua 25 de Abril and began walking up Rua da Escola Primária in the direction of the Estrela da Luz apartment complex.
She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril.
— It was the first time she saw that man. She does not remember seeing him at any time in any location.
She has seen photographs of Madeleine McCann and thinks that it could have been her. Asked, she said she was 60% certain.
— The description below made about the man and the female child that the witness saw was made at around 22H00, when the lighting was weak.
— Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.
Personal Description:
— (1) the individual was male, Caucasian, light-skinned, between 20/30 years of age, of normal physical build, around 1,70/1,75 metres in height. At the time she saw his face but now cannot remember it. She thinks that he had a clean-shaven face. She does not remember seeing tattoos, scars or earrings. She did not notice his ears. His hair was thick-ish, light brown in colour, short at the back (normal) and a bit longer on the top.
— His trousers were smooth "rights" along the legs, beige in colour, cotton fabric, thicker than linen, possibly with buttons, and without any other decoration.
— She did not see what he was wearing above his trousers as the child covered him almost completely at the top.
— She did not see what shoes he was wearing.
— The individual's gait was normal, between a fast walk and a run. He did not look tired, moving in a manner usual when one carries a child.
— (2) the child was female because she had straight long hair to the neck. The colour was fair/light brown.
— She is certain that the child was about four years old because her niece (who was in the group) is of the same age and they were the same size.
— She did not see the child's face because she was lying against the individual's left shoulder in a vertical position against the individual. She appeared to be sleeping. Her arms were suspended along her body and were not around the individual's neck. She did not look at the child's hands and cannot state the colour of her skin. She believes she was white.
— There was nothing covering the child, a comforter/blanket or any other piece of clothing but she only saw her back.
She was wearing light trousers, white or light pink, that may have been pyjamas. She does not remember if they were patterned as it was dark. The material was lightweight/thin and could have been cotton.
— She also had a light top, with long sleeves
.
She did not see it well because the individual had his arms around the child. She is not sure if the child's top was the same colour as her trousers, saying only that it was very light. The fabric was the same as the trousers.
— Questioned regarding the shoes, she responded that she did not remember seeing any shoes, not remembering if the child had any or not.
— Asked to tell the truth, she affirms that what she has finished declaring is the truth of the facts, according to her knowledge.
— And nothing more was said. Reads and finds it inconformity, ratifies and signs together with her interpreter.

+++++++++

As it is late, I have marked the sections I may refer back to another day, but briefly in response:

No, I do not accept that there would be anything remotely 'traumatic' about a trip to Praia da Luz, a place she knew very well, with her father and older brother, when she was not suspected of anything. I should think the police officer interviewing her would have been friendly.

The next thing I notice is that she says she walked to the top of the stairs, 'looked to her left' and saw a man, two metres (6 feet) away walking towards her.

They both continued to walk in opposite direction to each other.

If two people are walking towards each other, two metres apart, after one pace, they will be practically level with each other. After the next pace, they will be past each other.

Most people walk at about 100 to 120 paces a minute. Therefore in half a second or so, Aofie Smith would be level with 'Smithman', and after one second he would be behind her.

I am completely unable to accept that the highly detailed description she gives (see items highglighted in red) would be remotely possible in half a second.

Or, being generous, one second.

Or, say, two, three or four seconds.

Finally, I find that claim that she is 60% sure that the girl she saw was Madeleine McCann is absurd. It was dark, poorly lit, and, quote, 'She did not see the child's face because she was lying against the individual's left shoulder in a vertical position...'

Moreover, the selection of the 60% figure, albeit in relation to the child and not the adult they claimed to have seen, is strongly suggestive of prior collusion amongst members of the Smith family.

I find her account wholly without credibility and, as before, I'm not buying it.

Wendy Murphy called the whole Crimewatch charade about 'a fake sighting'.

I agree, and if anything re-reading Aofie Smith's statement reinforces my view.


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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by Rob Royston on Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:10 am


— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.
The deponent crossed to the other side of Rua 25 de Abril and began walking up Rua da Escola Primária in the direction of the Estrela da Luz apartment complex.
She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril.
— It was the first time she saw that man. She does not remember seeing him at any time in any location.
She has seen photographs of Madeleine McCann and thinks that it could have been her. Asked, she said she was 60% certain.
— The description below made about the man and the female child that the witness saw was made at around 22H00, when the lighting was weak.
— Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.
Personal Description:
— (1) the individual was male, Caucasian, light-skinned, between 20/30 years of age, of normal physical build, around 1,70/1,75 metres in height. At the time she saw his face but now cannot remember it. She thinks that he had a clean-shaven face. She does not remember seeing tattoos, scars or earrings. She did not notice his ears. His hair was thick-ish, light brown in colour, short at the back (normal) and a bit longer on the top.
— His trousers were smooth "rights" along the legs, beige in colour, cotton fabric, thicker than linen, possibly with buttons, and without any other decoration.
— She did not see what he was wearing above his trousers as the child covered him almost completely at the top.
— She did not see what shoes he was wearing.
— The individual's gait was normal, between a fast walk and a run. He did not look tired, moving in a manner usual when one carries a child.
— (2) the child was female because she had straight long hair to the neck. The colour was fair/light brown.
— She is certain that the child was about four years old because her niece (who was in the group) is of the same age and they were the same size.
— She did not see the child's face because she was lying against the individual's left shoulder in a vertical position against the individual. She appeared to be sleeping. Her arms were suspended along her body and were not around the individual's neck. She did not look at the child's hands and cannot state the colour of her skin. She believes she was white.
— There was nothing covering the child, a comforter/blanket or any other piece of clothing but she only saw her back.
She was wearing light trousers, white or light pink, that may have been pyjamas. She does not remember if they were patterned as it was dark. The material was lightweight/thin and could have been cotton.
— She also had a light top, with long sleeves
.
She did not see it well because the individual had his arms around the child. She is not sure if the child's top was the same colour as her trousers, saying only that it was very light. The fabric was the same as the trousers.
— Questioned regarding the shoes, she responded that she did not remember seeing any shoes, not remembering if the child had any or not.
— Asked to tell the truth, she affirms that what she has finished declaring is the truth of the facts, according to her knowledge.
— And nothing more was said. Reads and finds it inconformity, ratifies and signs together with her interpreter.

+++++++++

As it is late, I have marked the sections I may refer back to another day, but briefly in response:

No, I do not accept that there would be anything remotely 'traumatic' about a trip to Praia da Luz, a place she knew very well, with her father and older brother, when she was not suspected of anything. I should think the police officer interviewing her would have been friendly.

The next thing I notice is that she says she walked to the top of the stairs, 'looked to her left' and saw a man, two metres (6 feet) away walking towards her.  

They both continued to walk in opposite direction to each other.

If two people are walking towards each other, two metres apart, after one pace, they will be practically level with each other. After the next pace, they will be past each other.

Most people walk at about 100 to 120 paces a minute. Therefore in half a second or so, Aofie Smith would be level with 'Smithman', and after one second he would be behind her.

I am completely unable to accept that the highly detailed description she gives (see items highglighted in red) would be remotely possible in half a second.

Or, being generous, one second.

Or, say, two, three or four seconds.

Finally, I find that claim that she is 60% sure that the girl she saw was Madeleine McCann is absurd. It was dark, poorly lit, and, quote, 'She did not see the child's face because she was lying against the individual's left shoulder in a vertical position...'

Moreover, the selection of the 60% figure, albeit in relation to the child and not the adult they claimed to have seen, is strongly suggestive of prior collusion amongst members of the Smith family.

I find her account wholly without credibility and, as before, I'm not buying it.

Wendy Murphy called the whole Crimewatch charade about 'a fake sighting'.

I agree, and if anything re-reading Aofie Smith's statement reinforces my view.  

Are you saying that a family of nine people made all this up?

The girl says she saw the man with the child two metres to her left when she was at the top of the stairs. In such circumstances it would be normal for her to stop and let the man pass before they continued in opposite directions like she says.

If he passed in front of her I can understand how she could have noticed detail down to the buttons on his trouser legs, not commonly seen but Gerry McCann was photographed wearing identical trousers in PDL.

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by loopzdaloop on Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:37 am

You're barking up the wrong tree if you think the smiths are anything but independent, impartial witnesses.
I understand after the misinfo why scrutiny is applied everywhere, but it would be best placed elsewhere. 
I know they are impartial as the Mccanns sought to downplay what they saw.

I dont believe the 'sighting' by Tanner was meant to be similar to the other, (except for identification of Maddie) it was merely a bananaskin to slip people up in their analysis. 
Everyone knows she made up the sighting so im not bothered how it was discredited (but i respect those that have done so either by means fair or foul).

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by Tony Bennett on Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:20 am

@Rob Royston wrote:Are you saying that a family of nine people made all this up?

I have provided extensive analysis surrounding the three (not nine) statements that we actually have from the Smiths and this IMO provides severe doubt as to whether any of them saw anyone. The most likely explanation IMO, including accounting for the remarkable SEVENTEEN similarities between the Jane Tanner statement about Tannerman and the Smiths' statements about Smithman, is that both Tanner and the Smiths fabricated their sightings, for whatever reason (in the Smiths' case, possibly connected with Martin Smith's acquaintance with Robert Murat). I am watching the poll results on this thread with interest.  

The girl says she saw the man with the child two metres to her left when she was at the top of the stairs. In such circumstances it would be normal for her to stop and let the man pass before they continued in opposite directions like she says.

She doesn't say that, she says they passed each other. Her elaborate statement is based on her claim of seeing this man for half a second or so in the dark.

If he passed in front of her I can understand how she could have noticed detail down to the buttons on his trouser legs

In half a second - in the dark?

...not commonly seen but Gerry McCann was photographed wearing identical trousers in PDL.

Was this photograph available to the Smiths before they made their statements?

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by Tony Bennett on Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:31 am

@loopzdaloop wrote:You're barking up the wrong tree if you think the smiths are anything but independent, impartial witnesses.

That's the subject of debate. You may be ignoring indications that they are not.

I understand after the misinfo why scrutiny is applied everywhere, but it would be best placed elsewhere. 

I know they are impartial as the McCanns sought to downplay what they saw.

OK, do you accept the following please?

1. That the Channel 4/Mentorn Media documentary in May 2009 (the 'Mockumentary'), which was based on the McCanns' account of events, sought to merge Tannerman and Smithman?

2. That Dr Kate McCann in her book (May 2011) spent five pages (pp. 72, 329 and 370-372 urging people to come forward on the basis that (p. 372) there were 'striking similarities' between Tannerman and Smithman?

3. That in a Crimewatch programme seen by 6.7 million and again based on the McCanns' account of events, and to which the McCanns contributed, Smithman was put forward as the man most wanted by Scotland Yard?

If you accept those three points (which surely you must), how does that square with your claim above that  "the McCanns sought to downplay what they saw"? They haven't 'downplayed' it for the past 4.5 years. They have very actively promoted Smithman.

Haven't they?


I dont believe the 'sighting' by Tanner...Everyone knows she made up the sighting...

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by thetruthbeknown on Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:19 am

Has anyone 'officially mentioned' who Tannerman was or might have been? Having heard of him being cleared by SY as a British tourist? Or has his name never been released?

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by Dr What on Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:37 am

I sense that the McCanns only really started to acknowledge 'Smithman' when to do otherwise would have appeared suspicious.

At the very beginning, they tried to brainwash everyone into believing that 'Tannerman' was the culprit.The PJ refusal to play along with this tale must have been worrying to the McCanns.But that did not really matter as long as there was no media/public focus on 'Smithman'.As long as that remained 'buried', all was well.Assuming 'Smithman' was/is Gerry, then Gerry must have been living on a knife's edge for that initial first few weeks because he knew he had walked into one family, but other people just might have seen him.Any publicity to this sighting in these first few months risked others coming forward.It must have seemed like all his prayers had been answered when Amaral was removed from the case.

As time has gone on, it has been their strategy to try to merge 'Tannerman' and 'Smithman'. After all, if they were one and the same, then Gerry's alibi remains.He has an alibi for 'Tannerman', hence he has an alibi for 'Smithman'.

Now, however, if you take 'Tannerman' out of the equation as NSY have done, Gerry looks rather more exposed.

Time for a new strategy.Now where are all those Roma gypsies?

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by Hongkong Phooey on Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:55 am

Two big ifs:-
If Smithman exists and the dogs findings are correct (I believe they are but it now 'appears' both SY & the PJ are ignoring it) then it could only be Gerry or a cohort.

Although Tony has strenuously stated that the sighting is fabricated he has convinced no one but himself of this. Where is the so called evidence of Mr Smith having a close enough relationship with Murat that he puts him and his family in the position of perjury, can't see it myself. I do concede that his 17 points look suspicious however if you analyse it (try asking why five times) it doesn't cut the mustard

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by PeterMac on Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:55 am

@thetruthbeknown wrote:Has anyone 'officially mentioned' who Tannerman was or might have been? Having heard of him being cleared by SY as a British tourist? Or has his name never been released?
Fascinating that he has not sold his story to the press
Suspected for 6 years, life in ruins, always bear the guilt of having bug****ed up the enquiry by not coming forward, didn't realise that they meant me, . . . [fill in your own headlines]
No 15 minutes of infamy, no money, no name, nothing.

So . . .

Does he exist ?
Did he exist ?
Was Tanner right ?
Was Tanner deluded ?
Was Tanner hallucinating ?
Did Tanner invent the whole thing?
If so, why have SY chosen to totally discredit that whole episode.

COULD it be that they had to, because with Tannerman they are left with the "Window of Opportunity" of ONE minute and TWENTY seconds,
and there is no way round that inconvenient truth.
No amount of re-constructions, mockmentaries or anything else could POSSIBLY show how anything much could be done in that time.

And SY does not wish to be left in that position.

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by TheTruthWillOut on Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:05 pm

@PeterMac wrote:
@thetruthbeknown wrote:Has anyone 'officially mentioned' who Tannerman was or might have been? Having heard of him being cleared by SY as a British tourist? Or has his name never been released?
Fascinating that he has not sold his story to the press
Suspected for 6 years, life in ruins, always bear the guilt of having bug****ed up the enquiry by not coming forward, didn't realise that they meant me,  . . .  [fill in your own headlines]
No 15 minutes of infamy, no money, no name, nothing.

So . . .

Does he exist ?
Did he exist ?
Was Tanner right ?
Was Tanner deluded ?
Was Tanner hallucinating ?
Did Tanner invent the whole thing?
If so, why have SY chosen to totally discredit that whole episode.

COULD it be that they had to, because with Tannerman they are left with the "Window of Opportunity" of ONE minute and TWENTY seconds,
and there is no way round that inconvenient truth.
No amount of re-constructions, mockmentaries or anything else could POSSIBLY show how anything much could be done in that time.

And SY does not wish to be left in that position.
Coming from you Peter that really is depressing.

The only hope I have left is that very soon after SY "eliminated" the Tanner sighting, The PJ re-open the case out of nowhere.

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by loopzdaloop on Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:13 pm

@Tony Bennett wrote:
loopzdaloop wrote:
You're barking up the wrong tree if you think the smiths are anything but independent, impartial witnesses.

That's the subject of debate. You may be ignoring indications that they are not.

I understand after the misinfo why scrutiny is applied everywhere, but it would be best placed elsewhere.

I know they are impartial as the McCanns sought to downplay what they saw.

OK, do you accept the following please?

1. That the Channel 4/Mentorn Media documentary in May 2009 (the 'Mockumentary'), which was based on the McCanns' account of events, sought to merge Tannerman and Smithman?
I believe by attempting to Merge the sightings they were aiming for a hostile takeover of the Smith's sighting so they could refocus on the 'detail' of the Tanner Sighting and take Gerry out of the frame.



2. That Dr Kate McCann in her book (May 2011) spent five pages (pp. 72, 329 and 370-372 urging people to come forward on the basis that (p. 372) there were 'striking similarities' between Tannerman and Smithman?
Again, I believe this is part of the hostile takeover and the attempt to confuddle.
My perspective is that it was Gerry.
(The Detail on the trousers is so specific and such as rare thing to have buttons on the trousers).
If this was to be the case, Kate and Gerry would know it was Gerry. The files were released, they would have read that the Smiths were 80% sure that it was Gerry. It is in their best interests to discredit this by showing it is not Gerry as Gerry was meant to be elsewhere.

Yes, there were similarities, as Gerry was carrying Madelaine so would know what she was wearing, however I am convinced from the statements that Tanner had what Maddie was wearing fed to her and it was not a true memory. I also believe the difference between the way the children were held in both sightings is significant,.People get into habits and mannerisms that are hard to break which is why Gerry got caught out and recognised walking down the airplane steps. I also believe the animal instincts of the Smiths kicked in when they saw M being carried and they felt something was wrong, hence engaging in the conversation.






3. That in a Crimewatch programme seen by 6.7 million and again based on the McCanns' account of events, and to which the McCanns contributed, Smithman was put forward as the man most wanted by Scotland Yard?
The police utilise TV Shows in different ways. I believe it served two functions. 1) Put Pressure on the Mccann's (as they know the sighting was a lie, Tanner knows she lied.... If it was you, it would certainly put you on the backfoot and 2) Present 'new and incontrovertible evidence' that would allow the Portugese to reopen the case. As a member on here wanted to debate at lengths there were previously some jurisdiction issues.



If you accept those three points (which surely you must), how does that square with your claim above that  "the McCanns sought to downplay what they saw"? They haven't 'downplayed' it for the past 4.5 years. They have very actively promoted Smithman.

Haven't they?
Well, as you have detailed above they have sought to conflate Tanner-man with the Smith's sighting. That is muddying the water and thus downplaying the sighting. I also think that these chess pieces have now been used and are off the board ready for the next move! :)


@PeterMac wrote:
@thetruthbeknown wrote:Has anyone 'officially mentioned' who Tannerman was or might have been? Having heard of him being cleared by SY as a British tourist? Or has his name never been released?
Fascinating that he has not sold his story to the press
Suspected for 6 years, life in ruins, always bear the guilt of having bug****ed up the enquiry by not coming forward, didn't realise that they meant me,  . . .  [fill in your own headlines]
No 15 minutes of infamy, no money, no name, nothing.

So . . .

Does he exist ?
Did he exist ?
Was Tanner right ?
Was Tanner deluded ?
Was Tanner hallucinating ?
Did Tanner invent the whole thing?
If so, why have SY chosen to totally discredit that whole episode.
I am entirely convinced that he exists to the same level of 'being' as the original sighting.
That he has not come forward convinces me of the veracity of this!

I would love to see the Mccann's sitting down discussing this and answering your questions!

They found a patsy for the sighting!

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by thetruthbeknown on Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:54 pm

Im not even sure if I can say this...Id heard a name put around for Tannerman, I wasnt sure if it was official (thats why I asked) The name was Stephen Carpenter?? If that was the case (and true, which of course seems to be either hearsay or someones theory) then could it be counted out as Tannerman and Smithman being the same person? As Carpenter was staying in an apartment on the complex and taking his children back to there??

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by galena on Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:07 pm

@Dr What wrote:I sense that the McCanns only really started to acknowledge 'Smithman' when to do otherwise would have appeared suspicious.

At the very beginning, they tried to brainwash everyone into believing that 'Tannerman' was the culprit.The PJ refusal to play along with this tale must have been worrying to the McCanns.But that did not really matter as long as there was no media/public focus on 'Smithman'.As long as that remained 'buried', all was well.Assuming 'Smithman' was/is Gerry, then Gerry must have been living on a knife's edge for that initial first few weeks because he knew he had walked into one family, but other people just might have seen him.Any publicity to this sighting in these first few months risked others coming forward.It must have seemed like all his prayers had been answered when Amaral was removed from the case.

As time has gone on, it has been their strategy to try to merge 'Tannerman' and 'Smithman'. After all, if they were one and the same, then Gerry's alibi remains.He has an alibi for 'Tannerman', hence he has an alibi for 'Smithman'.

Now, however, if you take 'Tannerman' out of the equation as NSY have done, Gerry looks rather more exposed.

Time for a new strategy.Now where are all those Roma gypsies?
I don't believe Smithman was Gerry and I don't believe that the McCanns have tried to bury the sighting - Kate mentions it in her book - but if it is true that they made up Tannerman they must have been very puzzled by the Smith's sighting.  Somone else claiming to have been their fictional abductor - was it a coincidence, or were they up to something?  Sooner or later they must have realised that Smith was on Murat's side not there's.  Little wonder they have made so little out of it, it was an unknown quantity and they preferred to concentrate on sightings drummed up by Clarrie, which they knew were under their control.

I'm not sure that taking Tannerman out of the equation has made anything worse for the McCann's  - in fact it has made the abduction far more credible in leaving a larger window of opportunity for an abduction to take place - that's the line that AR seemed to be taking to me.

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by sami on Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:09 pm

@thetruthbeknown wrote:Im not even sure if I can say this...Id heard a name put around for Tannerman, I wasnt sure if it was official (thats why I asked) The name was Stephen Carpenter?? If that was the case (and true, which of course seems to be either hearsay or someones theory) then could it be counted out as Tannerman and Smithman being the same person? As Carpenter was staying in an apartment on the complex and taking his children back to there??
 But carpenter gave statements to the PJ in 2007.

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by ProfessorPPlum on Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:10 pm

I intially avoided voting on this because I couldn't easily answer it. I tend towards believing that Tannerman became more Smitherized the longer time went on but not that they are working from the same script. So it had to be option 4 for me - which then revealed that the largest number of people also opt for Option 4. 


____________________
The prime suspects in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann cannot be permitted to dictate what can and can't be discussed about the case

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by thetruthbeknown on Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:19 pm

@sami wrote:
@thetruthbeknown wrote:Im not even sure if I can say this...Id heard a name put around for Tannerman, I wasnt sure if it was official (thats why I asked) The name was Stephen Carpenter?? If that was the case (and true, which of course seems to be either hearsay or someones theory) then could it be counted out as Tannerman and Smithman being the same person? As Carpenter was staying in an apartment on the complex and taking his children back to there??
 But carpenter gave statements to the PJ in 2007.
Yes they did, but was it connected to the Tanner sighting? Did they already discount it..after all wasnt 'tannerman' pushed to the forefront by people other then PJ? wasnt it the McCanns and private investigators who got the efit drawn up?? Or have I misunderstood that bit?? Sorry, I am new to the research and trying to read as much as possible :) But its all so confusing...

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by chillyheat on Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:22 pm

@PeterMac wrote:
@thetruthbeknown wrote:Has anyone 'officially mentioned' who Tannerman was or might have been? Having heard of him being cleared by SY as a British tourist? Or has his name never been released?
Fascinating that he has not sold his story to the press
Suspected for 6 years, life in ruins, always bear the guilt of having bug****ed up the enquiry by not coming forward, didn't realise that they meant me,  . . .  [fill in your own headlines]
No 15 minutes of infamy, no money, no name, nothing.

So . . .

Does he exist ?
Did he exist ?
Was Tanner right ?
Was Tanner deluded ?
Was Tanner hallucinating ?
Did Tanner invent the whole thing?
If so, why have SY chosen to totally discredit that whole episode.

COULD it be that they had to, because with Tannerman they are left with the "Window of Opportunity" of ONE minute and TWENTY seconds,
and there is no way round that inconvenient truth.
No amount of re-constructions, mockmentaries or anything else could POSSIBLY show how anything much could be done in that time.

And SY does not wish to be left in that position.
Spooky.....

Gareth Williams was murdered after he discovered BBC pedophiles and/or heterophobes (allegedly in a joint venture with Central Saint Martin’s College's Drama Centre in London), had been developing Crimewatch scripts BEFORE the crimes had been committed and re-staging the scenes AFTER the crimes had been committed to point suspicion at the innocent and away from the guilty..

Reads as far fetched...But ya never know whats going on

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by petunia on Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:07 pm

@PeterMac wrote:
@thetruthbeknown wrote:Has anyone 'officially mentioned' who Tannerman was or might have been? Having heard of him being cleared by SY as a British tourist? Or has his name never been released?
Fascinating that he has not sold his story to the press
Suspected for 6 years, life in ruins, always bear the guilt of having bug****ed up the enquiry by not coming forward, didn't realise that they meant me,  . . .  [fill in your own headlines]
No 15 minutes of infamy, no money, no name, nothing.

So . . .

Does he exist ?
Did he exist ?
Was Tanner right ?
Was Tanner deluded ?
Was Tanner hallucinating ?
Did Tanner invent the whole thing?
If so, why have SY chosen to totally discredit that whole episode.

COULD it be that they had to, because with Tannerman they are left with the "Window of Opportunity" of ONE minute and TWENTY seconds,
and there is no way round that inconvenient truth.
No amount of re-constructions, mockmentaries or anything else could POSSIBLY show how anything much could be done in that time.

And SY does not wish to be left in that position.
what would we do without you petermac and many others of course.clapping 

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by ConcernedCitizen on Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:31 am

Bringing this over from another thread ...

----

bristowMadeleine clues hidden for 5 years
The new prime suspect was first singled out by detectives in 2008. Their findings were suppressed. Insight reports
The Sunday Times Insight team Published: 27 October 2013


Madeleine disappeared from the Praia da Luz resort in May 2007 (Adrian Sheratt)

THE critical new evidence at the centre of Scotland Yard’s search for Madeleine McCann was kept secret for five years after it was presented to her parents by ex-MI5 investigators.
The evidence was in fact taken from an intelligence report produced for Gerry and Kate McCann by a firm of former spies in 2008.
It contained crucial E-Fits of a man seen carrying a child on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance, which have only this month become public after he was identified as the prime suspect by Scotland Yard.
A team of hand-picked former MI5 agents had been hired by the McCanns to chase a much-needed breakthrough in the search for their missing daughter Madeleine.
 
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1332689.ece
 
 
FULL ARTICLE
 
 
 
@Jambo wrote:Hello! 


Madeleine clues hidden for 5 years

The new prime suspect was first singled out by detectives in 2008. Their findings were suppressed. Insight reports
The Sunday Times Insight team Published: 27 October 2013
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Madeleine disappeared from the Praia da Luz resort in May 2007Madeleine disappeared from the Praia da Luz resort in May 2007 (Adrian Sheratt)
THE critical new evidence at the centre of Scotland Yard’s search for Madeleine McCann was kept secret for five years after it was presented to her parents by ex-MI5 investigators.

The evidence was in fact taken from an intelligence report produced for Gerry and Kate McCann by a firm of former spies in 2008.

It contained crucial E-Fits of a man seen carrying a child on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance, which have only this month become public after he was identified as the prime suspect by Scotland Yard.

A team of hand-picked former MI5 agents had been hired by the McCanns to chase a much-needed breakthrough in the search for their missing daughter Madeleine.


Click to enlarge
10 months after the three-year-old had disappeared from the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz, and the McCanns were beginning to despair over the handling of the local police investigation. They were relying on the new team to bring fresh hope.

But within months the relationship had soured. A report produced by the investigators was deemed “hypercritical” of the McCanns and their friends, and the authors were threatened with legal action if it was made public. Its contents remained secret until Scotland Yard detectives conducting a fresh review of the case contacted the authors and asked for a copy.

They found that it contained new evidence about a key suspect seen carrying a child away from the McCanns’ holiday apartment on the night Madeleine disappeared.

This sighting is now considered the main lead in the investigation and E-Fits of the suspect, taken from the report, were the centrepiece of a Crimewatch appeal that attracted more than 2,400 calls from the public this month.

One of the investigators whose work was sidelined said last week he was “utterly stunned” when he watched the programme and saw the evidence his team had passed to the McCanns five years ago presented as a breakthrough.

The team of investigators from the security firm Oakley International were hired by the McCanns’ Find Madeleine fund, which bankrolled private investigations into the girl’s disappearance. They were led by Henri Exton, MI5’s former undercover operations chief.

Their report, seen by The Sunday Times, focused on a sighting by an Irish family of a man carrying a child at about 10pm on May 3, 2007, when Madeleine went missing.

An earlier sighting by one of the McCanns’ friends was dismissed as less credible after “serious inconsistencies” were found in her evidence. The report also raised questions about “anomalies” in the statements given by the McCanns and their friends.

Exton confirmed last week that the fund had silenced his investigators for years after they handed over their controversial findings. He said: “A letter came from their lawyers binding us to the confidentiality of the report.”

He claimed the legal threat had prevented him from handing over the report to Scotland Yard’s fresh investigation, until detectives had obtained written permission from the fund.

A source close to the fund said the report was considered “hypercritical of the people involved” and “would have been completely distracting” if it became public.

Kate and Gerry McCann: now officially not suspects, say the Portuguese authoritiesKate and Gerry McCann: now officially not suspects, say the Portuguese authorities (Adrian Sheratt) Oakley’s six-month investigation included placing undercover agents inside the Ocean Club where the family stayed, lie detector tests, covert surveillance and a forensic re-examination of all existing evidence.

It was immediately clear that two sightings of vital importance had been reported to the police. Two men were seen carrying children near the apartments between 9pm, when Madeleine was last seen by Gerry, and 10pm, when Kate discovered her missing.

The first man was seen at 9.15pm by Jane Tanner, a friend of the McCanns, who had been dining with them at the tapas bar in the resort. She saw a man carrying a girl just yards from the apartment as she went to check on her children.

The second sighting was by Martin Smith and his family from Ireland, who saw a man carrying a child near the apartment just before 10pm.

The earlier Tanner sighting had always been treated as the most significant, but the Oakley team controversially poured cold water on her account.

Instead, they focused on the Smith sighting, travelling to Ireland to interview the family and produce E-Fits of the man they saw. Their report said the Smiths were “helpful and sincere” and concluded: “The Smith sighting is credible evidence of a sighting of Maddie and more credible than Jane Tanner’s sighting”. The evidence had been “neglected for too long” and an “overemphasis placed on Tanner”.

The new focus shifted the believed timeline of the abduction back by 45 minutes.

The pictures of a man who may have taken Madeleine were drawn up in 2008The pictures of a man who may have taken Madeleine were drawn up in 2008 (Adrian Sheratt) The report, delivered to the McCanns in November 2008, recommended that the revised timeline should be the basis for future investigations and that the Smith E-Fits should be released without delay.

The potential abductor seen by the Smiths is now the prime suspect in Scotland Yard’s investigation, after detectives established that the man seen earlier by Tanner was almost certainly a father carrying his child home from a nearby night creche. The Smith E-Fits were the centrepiece of the Crimewatch appeal.

One of the Oakley investigators said last week: “I was absolutely stunned when I watched the programme . . . It most certainly wasn’t a new timeline and it certainly isn’t a new revelation. It is absolute nonsense to suggest either of those things . . . And those E-Fits you saw on Crimewatch are ours,” he said.

The detailed images of the face of the man seen by the Smith family were never released by the McCanns. But an artist’s impression of the man seen earlier by Tanner was widely promoted, even though the face had to be left blank because she had only seen him fleetingly and from a distance.

Various others images of lone men spotted hanging around the resort at other times were also released.

Nor were the Smith E-Fits included in Kate McCann’s 2011 book, Madeleine, which contained a whole section on eight “key sightings” and identified those of the Smiths and Tanner as most “crucial”. Descriptions of all seven other sightings were accompanied by an E-Fit or artist’s impression. The Smiths’ were the only exception. So why was such a “crucial” piece of evidence kept under lock and key?

The relationship between the fund and Oakley was already souring by the time the report was submitted — and its findings could only have made matters worse.

As well as questioning parts of the McCanns’ evidence, it contained sensitive information about Madeleine’s sleeping patterns and raised the highly sensitive possibility that she could have died in an accident after leaving the apartment herself from one of two unsecured doors.

There was also an uncomfortable complication with Smith’s account. He had originally told the police that he had “recognised something” about the way Gerry McCann carried one of his children which reminded him of the man he had seen in Praia da Luz.

Smith has since stressed that he does not believe the man he saw was Gerry, and Scotland Yard do not consider this a possibility. Last week the McCanns were told officially by the Portuguese authorities that they are not suspects.

The McCanns were also understandably wary of Oakley after allegations that the chairman, Kevin Halligen, failed to pass on money paid by the fund to Exton’s team. Halligen denies this. He was later convicted of fraud in an unrelated case in the US.

The McCann fund source said the Oakley report was passed on to new private investigators after the contract ended, but that the firm’s work was considered “contaminated” by the financial dispute.

He said the fund wanted to continue to pursue information about the man seen by Tanner, and it would have been too expensive to investigate both sightings in full — so the Smith E-Fits were not publicised. It was also considered necessary to threaten legal action against the authors.

“[The report] was hypercritical of the people involved . . . It just wouldn’t be conducive to the investigation to have that report publicly declared because . . . the newspapers would have been all over it. And it would have been completely distracting,” said the source.

A statement released by the Find Madeleine fund said that “all information privately gathered during the search for Madeleine has been fully acted upon where necessary” and had been passed to Scotland Yard.

It continued: “Throughout the investigation, the Find Madeleine fund’s sole priority has been, and remains, to find Madeleine and bring her home as swiftly as possible.”

Insight: Heidi Blake and Jonathan Calvert

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Re: SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

Post by jowie on Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:25 am

I would be interested to read Tony's thoughts on this breaking news.  Smithman, whether GM or RM or indeed someone else -  the info being supressed for over 5 years by the McCanns ???    E-fits missing from Kate's book ?   Talk about hindering the search ....

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