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Did Kate really return to the Tapas to give the alert?

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Did Kate really return to the Tapas to give the alert?

Post by Sockpuppet on 21.10.13 23:02

I've been going through all statements of the Tapas bar staff, to try and build a picture of the events that evening.

STARIKOVA VITORINO:
GM leaves for about 30 minutes.
On GM's return, KM leaves table.
A few moments later all guests leave table.
No mention of any shouting from KM.

JOAQUIM JOSE MOREIRA BATISTA:
Grey haired man leaves for 15 minutes
Dark haried man leaves for 30 minutes
Shortly after dark haired man returns, entire group leaves except for DW
No mention of any shouting from KM.

RICARDO ALEXANDRE DA LUZ OLIVEIRA

? leaves for about 10 minutes.
Told to hold plate back.
? returns maybe 15 minutes later, about 21.45.
Dinner ends about 21.45
About 21.45 - 21.50, table empty, no mention of DW.
Hears shouts from the balcony of G5A.

From other statement:
? is ROB.
ROB only had time to eat half of dinner.
5 or 10 minutes *after* searching has begun, woman (must be KM) screaming on G5A balcony.

We can possibly work backwards from the screaming on the balcony - surely this must be the point that Mrs Pamela Fenn hears Kate screaming 'We let her down', which Mrs Fenn is sure was about 10.30.

None of these statements describe Kate returning to the Tapas.  Surely one of the staff would have noticed this, especially if she 'shouted' whatever it was she has been alleged to have shouted.

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Re: Did Kate really return to the Tapas to give the alert?

Post by Okeydokey on 22.10.13 0:20

@Sockpuppet wrote:I've been going through all statements of the Tapas bar staff, to try and build a picture of the events that evening.

STARIKOVA VITORINO:
GM leaves for about 30 minutes.
On GM's return, KM leaves table.
A few moments later all guests leave table.
No mention of any shouting from KM.

JOAQUIM JOSE MOREIRA BATISTA:
Grey haired man leaves for 15 minutes
Dark haried man leaves for 30 minutes
Shortly after dark haired man returns, entire group leaves except for DW
No mention of any shouting from KM.

RICARDO ALEXANDRE DA LUZ OLIVEIRA

? leaves for about 10 minutes.
Told to hold plate back.
? returns maybe 15 minutes later, about 21.45.
Dinner ends about 21.45
About 21.45 - 21.50, table empty, no mention of DW.
Hears shouts from the balcony of G5A.

From other statement:
? is ROB.
ROB only had time to eat half of dinner.
5 or 10 minutes *after* searching has begun, woman (must be KM) screaming on G5A balcony.

We can possibly work backwards from the screaming on the balcony - surely this must be the point that Mrs Pamela Fenn hears Kate screaming 'We let her down', which Mrs Fenn is sure was about 10.30.

None of these statements describe Kate returning to the Tapas.  Surely one of the staff would have noticed this, especially if she 'shouted' whatever it was she has been alleged to have shouted.
I think this is a most important post...

It seems crucial to a lot of other theorising about what was going on...

Sadly I don't have anything to add! It seems there are some missing gaps in the evidence here. 

Who is the "dark haired" man do you think?

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Re: Did Kate really return to the Tapas to give the alert?

Post by Sockpuppet on 22.10.13 0:43

This is what JJMB said:

- Of the group of 8/9 British citizens who dined at the restaurant last night, as usual, of which the parents of missing were part (he didn't know them) he noticed that two individuals left the table, of the male gender.
- The first to leave was about 40/45 years old (tall, skinny, white complexion, with large [a full head of] hair of color gray) and the period of his absence was about 15 minutes, being that they had to [re-]heat his food, which had cooled;
- The second to leave (about 40/45 years of age, having the physical characteristics of the first, but having less bulky hair) did so for about 30 minutes, and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person, who told him that a child had disappeared, the daughter of a member of the group, due to which he thought that the second person to leave could have been the father of the child;


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS-EMPLOYEES.htm


He seems to think it was GM, but only in retrospect.  Starikova Vitorina also felt that the second to leave was GM.

The descriptions of the first guy all sound like MO to me, with the references to light brown/grey hair.

However, Ricardo's statement says:

'He states that on that night, after having received the orders, he went into the bar. Immediately, he put two white wine and two red wine bottles, along with a bottle of water, on the table. He cannot be sure that he served more wine that night. The appetiser/starters were served by one of his colleagues. After 25 to 30 minutes, it was the witness who served the main dishes. He remembers that at this moment, the taller male, whom he now knows to be Russell, had left the table. He did not know where he had gone. The witness was asked to keep Russell?s meal warm. After a certain amount of time (he is not able to be exact), he was asked to serve Russell, who had returned to the table. He remembers that the rest of the group had practically finished their main courses. Asked if he remembers having seen all the elements of the group at this time, he cannot remember exactly. He also cannot state the length of time Russell was away from the table. The witness states that he had already served all the clients of the bar and for this reason, believes that Russell was away for some time.'


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm



Which actually backs up the 'official' story of ROB being away for some time after GM.


Confusion is good I guess ;-)

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Re: Did Kate really return to the Tapas to give the alert?

Post by Sockpuppet on 22.10.13 1:04

Also, this is interesting, from the rogatory interview of J.R.Salcedas (23rd April 2008):

'On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.'


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm


This appears to describe the moment that the Tapas staff first heard about the disappearance.

- GM becomes present immediately as JRS talks to DW, running into the Tapas zone
- GM is searching the immediate area

KM claimed that she immediately believed it was an abduction.  But GM is searching around here as if Madeleine has wandered off.  Isn't that part of the complex walled off?  If Madeleine has gotten into this place, then she or the abductor must have entered through the reception.  It seems like the last place an abductor would head for.

It seems to me that where any of the Tapas staff describe the search, the Tapas group are looking around as if Madeleine has wandered off, not as if she has been abducted.

And then later, Ricardo Oliveira hears a piercing scream from Kate.  Could a discovery have been made at this moment?

Correction, this is again JRS, not Oliveira:

'I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother.'

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Re: Did Kate really return to the Tapas to give the alert?

Post by Sockpuppet on 22.10.13 2:23

Since I wrote this a theory has formed :)

This is just a theory, bearing in mind that the McCanns are currently totally innocent of any crime.  What follows here is not fact, it is my own personal invention.

Admin, I won't mind if you delete this, if it's too risky.


Edit: deleted it myself just in case, I don't want to get this forum into trouble.

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Re: Did Kate really return to the Tapas to give the alert?

Post by Estelle on 22.10.13 2:57

This is a very important thread so thanks for starting it. 

From reading what the waiters have said, Kate did not return to the tapas restaurant but screamed from the balcony calling, "They've taken her". This makes sense as she would not leave the twins there alone. 

What time do you think this happened?

It appears that it could have happened a long time before 10pm. It appears that the dinner table could have been empty by 9.30pm.  

IMO this implies that Gerry does not have an alibi for 10pm as being at the restaurant as I don't think anyone was in the restaurant at 10pm.

What Mrs Fenn heard could have been heard later and is not necessarily connected to Kate's first scream. 

The Carpenters heard someone calling, "Madeleine, Madeleine" between 9.15 and 9.30pm which could have been Kate or another tapas member as the gender of the person was not given.  

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