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Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

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Who is 'Smith-man'? (MULTIPLE CHOICE - You can vote for more than one answer)

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by ChippyM on 26.10.13 14:13

@GEROME THE GNOME wrote:Does anyone know where on 25th of april street Serge Malinka(The man whose car was torched and the word "talk" written on the pavement) lived? as that was the location of the Smith sighting.
hello Mr Gnome smilie ,

I wondered about Malinka too as his house was very near the church. He was investigated and in his statment to  police he said,     "--- With specific reference to the 03 May 2007, the witness confirms to have woken up at his parents' home, between 9 and 10am, having followed his normal professional activity, which is the service and repair of computers. He does not recall which customers were visited, since anything that occurs daily is registered in his MDA. 
--- Also he does not recollect having lunch that day. He knows he got home by 18H00. He dined with the family and stayed in his room for the rest of the night, using the computer for games, Messenger, internet and may have carried out some repairs to the equipment of a client. "

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SERGEY-MALINKA.htm


Police thought he had nothing to do with the dissapearance...although I wonder if being alone in his room is a water tight alibi. I would presume the police would have checked it out properly.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by GEROME THE GNOME on 26.10.13 14:46

@ChippyM wrote:
@GEROME THE GNOME wrote:Does anyone know where on 25th of april street Serge Malinka(The man whose car was torched and the word "talk" written on the pavement) lived? as that was the location of the Smith sighting.
hello Mr Gnome smilie ,

I wondered about Malinka too as his house was very near the church. He was investigated and in his statment to  police he said,     "--- With specific reference to the 03 May 2007, the witness confirms to have woken up at his parents' home, between 9 and 10am, having followed his normal professional activity, which is the service and repair of computers. He does not recall which customers were visited, since anything that occurs daily is registered in his MDA. 
--- Also he does not recollect having lunch that day. He knows he got home by 18H00. He dined with the family and stayed in his room for the rest of the night, using the computer for games, Messenger, internet and may have carried out some repairs to the equipment of a client. "

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SERGEY-MALINKA.htm


Police thought he had nothing to do with the dissapearance...although I wonder if being alone in his room is a water tight alibi. I would presume the police would have checked it out properly.
Thanks Chippy.
Dont think he had anything to do with it other than providing a short term hiding place.If this was the case the poor child could be moved later.I read somewhere that GM and DP went out at 4am, if this is true then perhaps she was moved to a property with a freezer, Gerraghtys place perhaps ,or Casa Colina to be picked up later when a car was available.I would be interested to know when the car boot was first seen open by the nieghbour, was it around the time of the Freud meal at Casa Colina?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Hongkong Phooey on 26.10.13 14:51

Châtelaine wrote:
@aquila wrote:It's common sense time folks.

A three year old goes missing and instead of everyone in a holiday group getting off their arses and running (we know how athletic they are) they sit down and write a timeline.

It really is that simple for me. At this most horrific moment a collective decision was taken to write things down instead of looking.
***

Common sense indeed, aquila.
* it was most important to re-write the script of that evening [Smithman/Tannerman]
* there was no importance to look for her, as they knew ...

IMO, of course
Even after that the parents 'worked really hard' searching the internet!!!

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by columbostogeys on 26.10.13 15:56

Châtelaine wrote:
@aquila wrote:It's common sense time folks.

A three year old goes missing and instead of everyone in a holiday group getting off their arses and running (we know how athletic they are) they sit down and write a timeline.

It really is that simple for me. At this most horrific moment a collective decision was taken to write things down instead of looking.
***

Common sense indeed, aquila.
* it was most important to re-write the script of that evening [Smithman/Tannerman]
* there was no importance to look for her, as they knew ...

IMO, of course
I never understood why they did that for all they knew she could have simply wondered off, OR gone off to hide to scare her parents....

Why write a timeline on her book, never got that at all. 

Its almost like they have to make they cover their tracks, lets all sing to the same tune....

Whilst they sat doing that they could have run around PDL looking for her...

So much of this case makes no sense.

I still think in my heart she knew who took her......

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 26.10.13 17:34

They wrote in fact TWO versions of the timeline.
It's very difficult to write a coherent scenario after the play on stage went feet up ...

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by thetruthbeknown on 26.10.13 17:40

it is rather bizarre..to even be thinking of writing a 'timeline' at a time when a child of one of a party has gone missing. speaking as parent, even if a 'non-close' friend, or even a parent I hadnt even spoken to before that moment in time....the last thing on my mind would be thinking of doing a timeline...bizarre

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Truthandjustice on 26.10.13 17:48

@thetruthbeknown wrote:it is rather bizarre..to even be thinking of writing a 'timeline' at a time when a child of one of a party has gone missing. speaking as parent, even if a 'non-close' friend, or even a parent I hadnt even spoken to before that moment in time....the last thing on my mind would be thinking of doing a timeline...bizarre
True. One of my kids went missing at the zoo (big open space one) and I kept looking, informed staff etc etc but kept looking till I found him.  I would not have gone and sat down and waited....why?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by thetruthbeknown on 26.10.13 17:53

@Truthandjustice wrote:
@thetruthbeknown wrote:it is rather bizarre..to even be thinking of writing a 'timeline' at a time when a child of one of a party has gone missing. speaking as parent, even if a 'non-close' friend, or even a parent I hadnt even spoken to before that moment in time....the last thing on my mind would be thinking of doing a timeline...bizarre
True. One of my kids went missing at the zoo (big open space one) and I kept looking, informed staff etc etc but kept looking till I found him.  I would not have gone and sat down and waited....why?
Me too, my child went missing when she was 9, she was found locked in a boot of a car 2 hours later in the garages down the road, the boy concerned was charged with false imprisonment, and assault..but during that time, even people id never spoken to before, helped search etc. Its just so bizarre to think of anything else :/

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 26.10.13 20:30

I think we have to be careful when looking at the time lines. SY have already said the main focus is on a change in the acknowledged time lines and many of the times given by witnesses are guesses, this is why a reconstruction even with stand ins would be so valuable. What do we know for definite ?

The following taken from the McCann files


21:20, Executive Chef A.E.G.F.P. heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few metres away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. At around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
 
Approx. 21:55 The Smith Family, (4 adults and 5 children) are returning from 'Kelly's Bar', heading north, Note [The time of the Smith sighting was just after 21:55 as this was the time on their bar receipt (assuming the receipt machines time was correct) So the time would have been very close to 22:00]

[Club Guest] M.M.M.d.S. declares that on the night 03 May 2007, she left the apartment at around 21:58 - she remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge;
 They left the building and the deponent and her boyfriend took the Opel Frontera, previously indicated, which was parked out front of the apartment, in the private parking area of Block 6 where her friend's apartment was located;
 She declares that the night was good with a breeze, and that it was dark;
 After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. She states that she saw no movement of people, and that in the immediate areas of the blocks she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment;
  
At about 22:17 Hotel manager E.L.K. received a call from L.J., the Crèche Manager, informing her that the girl had gone missing. She met L.J. and the Service Manager, A.T., near to the Tapas Bar and they initiated the "Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child".

22:50 - First call to GNR Lagos precinct (Guarda Nacional Republicana, rural police); The first call to Police Precinct of GNR (Portuguese Rural Police) in Lagos, reporting a missing child and asking for Police help was made at 22:50 and a patrol was sent, arriving at Ocean Club 12/15 minutes later, according to Lieutenant-Colonel Costa Cabral, Head of Public Relations of GNR.



So if Smith sighting is Madeline there was a 35 min delay between the "abduction" and the sighting 10 mins walk away?

Non of the Tapas 7 have an alibi for time of the Smith sighting at 22:00

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 26.10.13 20:48

The best place to hide a tree is in a forest. Best place to hide a body .......

back to where was the person in the Smith sighting going?

1. An inoscent man carrying his daughter to their holiday home?
2. A waiting car?  a long way from apartment 4A
3. The beech ? Keela found no scent
4. The Church? would it be locked?
5. A crypt near or in the church? would it be locked?
6. The medical centre for specialist medication or drugs, lack of urgency and surely it would be closed? 
7. Did the medical centre have a "for incineration only" skip / bin? surely it would be secure , wouldn't explain cadaver scent in the hire car
8. Another hiding place? There was a search but people would have been looking for a lost little girl.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by ConcernedCitizen on 27.10.13 4:28

Just bringing this over from another thread ....

-----

bristow
Madeleine clues hidden for 5 years
The new prime suspect was first singled out by detectives in 2008. Their findings were suppressed. Insight reports
The Sunday Times Insight team Published: 27 October 2013


Madeleine disappeared from the Praia da Luz resort in May 2007 (Adrian Sheratt)

THE critical new evidence at the centre of Scotland Yard’s search for Madeleine McCann was kept secret for five years after it was presented to her parents by ex-MI5 investigators.
The evidence was in fact taken from an intelligence report produced for Gerry and Kate McCann by a firm of former spies in 2008.
It contained crucial E-Fits of a man seen carrying a child on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance, which have only this month become public after he was identified as the prime suspect by Scotland Yard.
A team of hand-picked former MI5 agents had been hired by the McCanns to chase a much-needed breakthrough in the search for their missing daughter Madeleine.
 
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1332689.ece
 
 
FULL ARTICLE
 
 
 
@Jambo wrote:Hello! 


Madeleine clues hidden for 5 years

The new prime suspect was first singled out by detectives in 2008. Their findings were suppressed. Insight reports
The Sunday Times Insight team Published: 27 October 2013
Comment (0) Print
Madeleine disappeared from the Praia da Luz resort in May 2007Madeleine disappeared from the Praia da Luz resort in May 2007 (Adrian Sheratt)
THE critical new evidence at the centre of Scotland Yard’s search for Madeleine McCann was kept secret for five years after it was presented to her parents by ex-MI5 investigators.

The evidence was in fact taken from an intelligence report produced for Gerry and Kate McCann by a firm of former spies in 2008.

It contained crucial E-Fits of a man seen carrying a child on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance, which have only this month become public after he was identified as the prime suspect by Scotland Yard.

A team of hand-picked former MI5 agents had been hired by the McCanns to chase a much-needed breakthrough in the search for their missing daughter Madeleine.


Click to enlarge
10 months after the three-year-old had disappeared from the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz, and the McCanns were beginning to despair over the handling of the local police investigation. They were relying on the new team to bring fresh hope.

But within months the relationship had soured. A report produced by the investigators was deemed “hypercritical” of the McCanns and their friends, and the authors were threatened with legal action if it was made public. Its contents remained secret until Scotland Yard detectives conducting a fresh review of the case contacted the authors and asked for a copy.

They found that it contained new evidence about a key suspect seen carrying a child away from the McCanns’ holiday apartment on the night Madeleine disappeared.

This sighting is now considered the main lead in the investigation and E-Fits of the suspect, taken from the report, were the centrepiece of a Crimewatch appeal that attracted more than 2,400 calls from the public this month.

One of the investigators whose work was sidelined said last week he was “utterly stunned” when he watched the programme and saw the evidence his team had passed to the McCanns five years ago presented as a breakthrough.

The team of investigators from the security firm Oakley International were hired by the McCanns’ Find Madeleine fund, which bankrolled private investigations into the girl’s disappearance. They were led by Henri Exton, MI5’s former undercover operations chief.

Their report, seen by The Sunday Times, focused on a sighting by an Irish family of a man carrying a child at about 10pm on May 3, 2007, when Madeleine went missing.

An earlier sighting by one of the McCanns’ friends was dismissed as less credible after “serious inconsistencies” were found in her evidence. The report also raised questions about “anomalies” in the statements given by the McCanns and their friends.

Exton confirmed last week that the fund had silenced his investigators for years after they handed over their controversial findings. He said: “A letter came from their lawyers binding us to the confidentiality of the report.”

He claimed the legal threat had prevented him from handing over the report to Scotland Yard’s fresh investigation, until detectives had obtained written permission from the fund.

A source close to the fund said the report was considered “hypercritical of the people involved” and “would have been completely distracting” if it became public.

Kate and Gerry McCann: now officially not suspects, say the Portuguese authoritiesKate and Gerry McCann: now officially not suspects, say the Portuguese authorities (Adrian Sheratt) Oakley’s six-month investigation included placing undercover agents inside the Ocean Club where the family stayed, lie detector tests, covert surveillance and a forensic re-examination of all existing evidence.

It was immediately clear that two sightings of vital importance had been reported to the police. Two men were seen carrying children near the apartments between 9pm, when Madeleine was last seen by Gerry, and 10pm, when Kate discovered her missing.

The first man was seen at 9.15pm by Jane Tanner, a friend of the McCanns, who had been dining with them at the tapas bar in the resort. She saw a man carrying a girl just yards from the apartment as she went to check on her children.

The second sighting was by Martin Smith and his family from Ireland, who saw a man carrying a child near the apartment just before 10pm.

The earlier Tanner sighting had always been treated as the most significant, but the Oakley team controversially poured cold water on her account.

Instead, they focused on the Smith sighting, travelling to Ireland to interview the family and produce E-Fits of the man they saw. Their report said the Smiths were “helpful and sincere” and concluded: “The Smith sighting is credible evidence of a sighting of Maddie and more credible than Jane Tanner’s sighting”. The evidence had been “neglected for too long” and an “overemphasis placed on Tanner”.

The new focus shifted the believed timeline of the abduction back by 45 minutes.

The pictures of a man who may have taken Madeleine were drawn up in 2008The pictures of a man who may have taken Madeleine were drawn up in 2008 (Adrian Sheratt) The report, delivered to the McCanns in November 2008, recommended that the revised timeline should be the basis for future investigations and that the Smith E-Fits should be released without delay.

The potential abductor seen by the Smiths is now the prime suspect in Scotland Yard’s investigation, after detectives established that the man seen earlier by Tanner was almost certainly a father carrying his child home from a nearby night creche. The Smith E-Fits were the centrepiece of the Crimewatch appeal.

One of the Oakley investigators said last week: “I was absolutely stunned when I watched the programme . . . It most certainly wasn’t a new timeline and it certainly isn’t a new revelation. It is absolute nonsense to suggest either of those things . . . And those E-Fits you saw on Crimewatch are ours,” he said.

The detailed images of the face of the man seen by the Smith family were never released by the McCanns. But an artist’s impression of the man seen earlier by Tanner was widely promoted, even though the face had to be left blank because she had only seen him fleetingly and from a distance.

Various others images of lone men spotted hanging around the resort at other times were also released.

Nor were the Smith E-Fits included in Kate McCann’s 2011 book, Madeleine, which contained a whole section on eight “key sightings” and identified those of the Smiths and Tanner as most “crucial”. Descriptions of all seven other sightings were accompanied by an E-Fit or artist’s impression. The Smiths’ were the only exception. So why was such a “crucial” piece of evidence kept under lock and key?

The relationship between the fund and Oakley was already souring by the time the report was submitted — and its findings could only have made matters worse.

As well as questioning parts of the McCanns’ evidence, it contained sensitive information about Madeleine’s sleeping patterns and raised the highly sensitive possibility that she could have died in an accident after leaving the apartment herself from one of two unsecured doors.

There was also an uncomfortable complication with Smith’s account. He had originally told the police that he had “recognised something” about the way Gerry McCann carried one of his children which reminded him of the man he had seen in Praia da Luz.

Smith has since stressed that he does not believe the man he saw was Gerry, and Scotland Yard do not consider this a possibility. Last week the McCanns were told officially by the Portuguese authorities that they are not suspects.

The McCanns were also understandably wary of Oakley after allegations that the chairman, Kevin Halligen, failed to pass on money paid by the fund to Exton’s team. Halligen denies this. He was later convicted of fraud in an unrelated case in the US.

The McCann fund source said the Oakley report was passed on to new private investigators after the contract ended, but that the firm’s work was considered “contaminated” by the financial dispute.

He said the fund wanted to continue to pursue information about the man seen by Tanner, and it would have been too expensive to investigate both sightings in full — so the Smith E-Fits were not publicised. It was also considered necessary to threaten legal action against the authors.

“[The report] was hypercritical of the people involved . . . It just wouldn’t be conducive to the investigation to have that report publicly declared because . . . the newspapers would have been all over it. And it would have been completely distracting,” said the source.

A statement released by the Find Madeleine fund said that “all information privately gathered during the search for Madeleine has been fully acted upon where necessary” and had been passed to Scotland Yard.

It continued: “Throughout the investigation, the Find Madeleine fund’s sole priority has been, and remains, to find Madeleine and bring her home as swiftly as possible.”

Insight: Heidi Blake and Jonathan Calvert

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by StraightThinking on 27.10.13 8:54

Following this morning's bombshell news, is there anyone on the planet who still thinks that the Smith sighting is either irrelevant, or didn't happen?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by PeterMac on 27.10.13 9:25

@StraightThinking wrote:Following this morning's bombshell news, is there anyone on the planet who still thinks that the Smith sighting is either irrelevant, or didn't happen?
I think you still can argue that it may be irrelevant, and was suppressed because they wanted to focus on Tannerman to "prove" abduction.

If they lose Smithman as well, then it would focus attention on whether Madeleine was even alive on 3rd, or whether she died on 2nd / 3rd, was missed by both parents, who stormed off in different directions and all the washing and cleaning and so on on 3rd was to eliminate traces.
Gerry cut his tennis lesson that afternoon, and so has at least a couple of unaccountable hours, before resuming with the high tea nonsense later.
Kate cannot decide whether she met them at tea or signed Madeleine out of the creche, and all the Tapas group - ALL of them - were shipped off to the Paraiso out of the way,
leaving no witnesses to Madeleine's continued existence.


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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by pennylane on 27.10.13 9:36

@StraightThinking wrote:Following this morning's bombshell news, is there anyone on the planet who still thinks that the Smith sighting is either irrelevant, or didn't happen?
Nope (imo)!

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by StraightThinking on 27.10.13 9:59

@PeterMac wrote:
I think you still can argue that it may be irrelevant, and was suppressed because they wanted to focus on Tannerman to "prove" abduction.
Fair point PeterMac, but that would put a huge emphasis on a sighting (Bundleman) that in all probability didn't exist, what a dangerous game to play

In 6 years of worldwide publicity, an innocent Bundleman never came forward and AR dismissed him even though he was walking the wrong way, so the evidence suggests he was never there in the first place, certainly not in the form that was described at the time (and which the UK media got so excited about)

The way this is developing, the CW programme is looking more and more like a deliberate NSY-approved piece of fiction (as many on here suspected), designed to focus attention on certain things that have been ignored for too long, and to await the reaction to those revelations

Is AR the new Hercule Poirot?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by PeterMac on 27.10.13 10:22

@StraightThinking wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
I think you still can argue that it may be irrelevant, and was suppressed because they wanted to focus on Tannerman to "prove" abduction.
Fair point PeterMac, but that would put a huge emphasis on a sighting (Bundleman) that in all probability didn't exist, what a dangerous game to play
I think it can be argued that both are, or may be, irrelevant, though Tannerman was used to convey the possibility of abduction, even though when they worked it out they had left far too little time.

I still tend to the view that M died 2/3 during the night, leaked fluids, was cold and stiff in the morning, was taken away in the blue bag during the afternoon during the convenient 2 or 3 hour gap caused by the Achilles Tendon injury - which miraculously healed before the evening session. Cleaning, washing stained pyjamas, and all the rest is done by K, the cleaners are turned away, and the cleaning rags or kitchen paper and any other soiled items are taken out during the afternoon run along the beach, which involves going past several sets of bins.


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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Hicks on 27.10.13 10:28

@PeterMac wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
I think you still can argue that it may be irrelevant, and was suppressed because they wanted to focus on Tannerman to "prove" abduction.
Fair point PeterMac, but that would put a huge emphasis on a sighting (Bundleman) that in all probability didn't exist, what a dangerous game to play
I think it can be argued that both are, or may be, irrelevant, though Tannerman was used to convey the possibility of abduction, even though when they worked it out they had left far too little time.

I still tend to the view that M died 2/3 during the night, leaked fluids, was cold and stiff in the morning, was taken away in the blue bag during the afternoon during the convenient 2 or 3 hour gap caused by the Achilles Tendon injury - which miraculously healed before the evening session.  Cleaning, washing stained pyjamas, and all the rest is done by K, the cleaners are turned away, and the cleaning rags or kitchen paper and any other soiled items are taken out during the afternoon run along the beach, which involves going past several sets of bins.

That all makes sense. The only stumbling block for me is Mrs Carpenter hearing someone calling out Madeleine's name around 9.20/30.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by susible on 27.10.13 10:57

I'm also reluctant to believe that the death occurred earlier, because the abduction charade was such a shambles, I honestly think that if they'd had more time to plan it, there wouldn't have been the inconsistencies, problematic timelines etc

Also Snr Amaral's thesis places the 3rd as being the day of the potential accident, due to the independent witnesses at the creche etc, and whilst I agree that the creche records were a bit of a disaster and the nannies didn't really know who their charges were, allowing for a substitute child in the creche, that would have been a very risky strategy had one of the nannies realised that the child signed in as Madeleine, was not her at all.  And of course, children of that age group can be quite vocal, so could easily say my name is not Madeleine etc, whereas a much younger child would not be able to, but the age group for Madeleine would easily be able to self-identify.

And of course there was the 9.30 -9.40 hullaballoo witnessed by the Carpenters and the tapas staff who notices that the group had all left the table except for DW.

Whilst I realise that this does not leave much time for the plan to be acted out, I have always thought that the entire sequence of events was a result of a panic reaction, which would certainly account for the inconsistencies in the tapas groups statements and timelines and Gerry inadvertently being seen by the Smiths as he frantically tried to spirit his daughter away from the apartment.

And now we know that the McCanns tried to bury the Smith sighting, I think that probably gives a good indication that Smith did see Gerry that night.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Hicks on 27.10.13 11:26

@susible wrote:I'm also reluctant to believe that the death occurred earlier, because the abduction charade was such a shambles, I honestly think that if they'd had more time to plan it, there wouldn't have been the inconsistencies, problematic timelines etc

Also Snr Amaral's thesis places the 3rd as being the day of the potential accident, due to the independent witnesses at the creche etc, and whilst I agree that the creche records were a bit of a disaster and the nannies didn't really know who their charges were, allowing for a substitute child in the creche, that would have been a very risky strategy had one of the nannies realised that the child signed in as Madeleine, was not her at all.  And of course, children of that age group can be quite vocal, so could easily say my name is not Madeleine etc, whereas a much younger child would not be able to, but the age group for Madeleine would easily be able to self-identify.

And of course there was the 9.30 -9.40 hullaballoo witnessed by the Carpenters and the tapas staff who notices that the group had all left the table except for DW.

Whilst I realise that this does not leave much time for the plan to be acted out, I have always thought that the entire sequence of events was a result of a panic reaction, which would certainly account for the inconsistencies in the tapas groups statements and timelines and Gerry inadvertently being seen by the Smiths as he frantically tried to spirit his daughter away from the apartment.

And now we know that the McCanns tried to bury the Smith sighting, I think that probably gives a good indication that Smith did see Gerry that night.
This link is perhaps further proof that the death happened on the night of the 3rd. The cook says that KM raised the alarm at 9.30, meaning that the discovery was a lot earlier. I was always suspicious of GM account of his 'proud father moment' also of him saying that there could have been someone behind the door or in the apartment. So if you really thought that would you shrug your shoulders and still make you way back to have some fun with your friends....BS !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOidpDzY-Js.
The cleaning of the apartment didn't have to be completed that evening, the cadaver and blood dogs came three months after.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 27.10.13 12:15

@Hicks wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
I think you still can argue that it may be irrelevant, and was suppressed because they wanted to focus on Tannerman to "prove" abduction.
Fair point PeterMac, but that would put a huge emphasis on a sighting (Bundleman) that in all probability didn't exist, what a dangerous game to play
I think it can be argued that both are, or may be, irrelevant, though Tannerman was used to convey the possibility of abduction, even though when they worked it out they had left far too little time.

I still tend to the view that M died 2/3 during the night, leaked fluids, was cold and stiff in the morning, was taken away in the blue bag during the afternoon during the convenient 2 or 3 hour gap caused by the Achilles Tendon injury - which miraculously healed before the evening session.  Cleaning, washing stained pyjamas, and all the rest is done by K, the cleaners are turned away, and the cleaning rags or kitchen paper and any other soiled items are taken out during the afternoon run along the beach, which involves going past several sets of bins.

That all makes sense. The only stumbling block for me is Mrs Carpenter hearing someone calling out Madeleine's name around 9.20/30.
So why the conflict over timelines. Wouldn't it be clearer, less questions, less confusion? no half open doors. More like Madeline was there at 9:30. I forgot to lock the door, she was gone at 10:00.

Note SY say the McCannes are not suspects. It is very strong. not "we are not discounting any possiblities". I notice the polititians are being very careful with their words

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by thetruthbeknown on 27.10.13 12:21

@Hicks wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
I think you still can argue that it may be irrelevant, and was suppressed because they wanted to focus on Tannerman to "prove" abduction.
Fair point PeterMac, but that would put a huge emphasis on a sighting (Bundleman) that in all probability didn't exist, what a dangerous game to play
I think it can be argued that both are, or may be, irrelevant, though Tannerman was used to convey the possibility of abduction, even though when they worked it out they had left far too little time.

I still tend to the view that M died 2/3 during the night, leaked fluids, was cold and stiff in the morning, was taken away in the blue bag during the afternoon during the convenient 2 or 3 hour gap caused by the Achilles Tendon injury - which miraculously healed before the evening session.  Cleaning, washing stained pyjamas, and all the rest is done by K, the cleaners are turned away, and the cleaning rags or kitchen paper and any other soiled items are taken out during the afternoon run along the beach, which involves going past several sets of bins.

That all makes sense. The only stumbling block for me is Mrs Carpenter hearing someone calling out Madeleine's name around 9.20/30.
I was reading the carpenter statements yesterday. I picked up on that part, and also that she couldnt detect whether it was a call of 'urgency'...on a personal view I think an 'urgent' call would have been quite unforgetable, and noticable...so possibly a call of trying to rouse? Maybe at that point realising that she couldnt be roused?? Just a stab in the dark there from me, im sure those that have read more would have different views?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Hicks on 27.10.13 12:25

@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:
@Hicks wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
I think you still can argue that it may be irrelevant, and was suppressed because they wanted to focus on Tannerman to "prove" abduction.
Fair point PeterMac, but that would put a huge emphasis on a sighting (Bundleman) that in all probability didn't exist, what a dangerous game to play
I think it can be argued that both are, or may be, irrelevant, though Tannerman was used to convey the possibility of abduction, even though when they worked it out they had left far too little time.

I still tend to the view that M died 2/3 during the night, leaked fluids, was cold and stiff in the morning, was taken away in the blue bag during the afternoon during the convenient 2 or 3 hour gap caused by the Achilles Tendon injury - which miraculously healed before the evening session.  Cleaning, washing stained pyjamas, and all the rest is done by K, the cleaners are turned away, and the cleaning rags or kitchen paper and any other soiled items are taken out during the afternoon run along the beach, which involves going past several sets of bins.

That all makes sense. The only stumbling block for me is Mrs Carpenter hearing someone calling out Madeleine's name around 9.20/30.
So why the conflict over timelines. Wouldn't it be clearer, less questions, less confusion? no half open doors. More like Madeline was there at 9:30. I forgot to lock the door, she was gone at 10:00.

Note SY say the McCannes are not suspects. It is very strong. not "we are not discounting any possiblities". I notice the polititians are being very careful with their words
I personally believe there was a panic and a need to act swiftly, hence the conflicting stories. We do not know the circumstances surrounding Madeleine that evening, therefore we shouldn't  just assume it was an accident.

____________________
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all the people all of the time. Abraham Lincoln.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by pennylane on 27.10.13 12:29

@thetruthbeknown wrote:
@Hicks wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
I think you still can argue that it may be irrelevant, and was suppressed because they wanted to focus on Tannerman to "prove" abduction.
Fair point PeterMac, but that would put a huge emphasis on a sighting (Bundleman) that in all probability didn't exist, what a dangerous game to play
I think it can be argued that both are, or may be, irrelevant, though Tannerman was used to convey the possibility of abduction, even though when they worked it out they had left far too little time.

I still tend to the view that M died 2/3 during the night, leaked fluids, was cold and stiff in the morning, was taken away in the blue bag during the afternoon during the convenient 2 or 3 hour gap caused by the Achilles Tendon injury - which miraculously healed before the evening session.  Cleaning, washing stained pyjamas, and all the rest is done by K, the cleaners are turned away, and the cleaning rags or kitchen paper and any other soiled items are taken out during the afternoon run along the beach, which involves going past several sets of bins.

That all makes sense. The only stumbling block for me is Mrs Carpenter hearing someone calling out Madeleine's name around 9.20/30.
I was reading the carpenter statements yesterday. I picked up on that part, and also that she couldnt detect whether it was a call of 'urgency'...on a personal view I think an 'urgent' call would have been quite unforgetable, and noticable...so possibly a call of trying to rouse? Maybe at that point realising that she couldnt be roused?? Just a stab in the dark there from me, im sure those that have read more would have different views?
At first they couldn't find her (imo), and Maddie was (as Jane described) barefoot and bare armed when G scooped her up and ran.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 27.10.13 12:58

@susible wrote:I'm also reluctant to believe that the death occurred earlier, because the abduction charade was such a shambles, I honestly think that if they'd had more time to plan it, there wouldn't have been the inconsistencies, problematic timelines etc

Also Snr Amaral's thesis places the 3rd as being the day of the potential accident, due to the independent witnesses at the creche etc, and whilst I agree that the creche records were a bit of a disaster and the nannies didn't really know who their charges were, allowing for a substitute child in the creche, that would have been a very risky strategy had one of the nannies realised that the child signed in as Madeleine, was not her at all.  And of course, children of that age group can be quite vocal, so could easily say my name is not Madeleine etc, whereas a much younger child would not be able to, but the age group for Madeleine would easily be able to self-identify.

And of course there was the 9.30 -9.40 hullaballoo witnessed by the Carpenters and the tapas staff who notices that the group had all left the table except for DW.

Whilst I realise that this does not leave much time for the plan to be acted out, I have always thought that the entire sequence of events was a result of a panic reaction, which would certainly account for the inconsistencies in the tapas groups statements and timelines and Gerry inadvertently being seen by the Smiths as he frantically tried to spirit his daughter away from the apartment.

And now we know that the McCanns tried to bury the Smith sighting, I think that probably gives a good indication that Smith did see Gerry that night.
yep, Where would he have taken Madeline? Is it possible she was moved the night after the dogs searched 4A because they new the next day the beech area would be searched. This caused the delay in the Huelva trip that was due to take place the very next day?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by StraightThinking on 28.10.13 9:18

I never understood why this thread should have taken the unexpected turn that it did (ie suggesting that five members of the same apparently honourable family should all have been - how can I put it? - economical with the truth when dealing with the police), especially in the light of recent developments. Anyone care to speculate?

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