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Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 18.10.13 15:04

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@jowie wrote:Sorry but having to pop in and out as am at work and should'nt be reading.  So lets say that Smith fabricated the sighting to keep RM out of the frame - if so why would the McCanns do everything in their power to keep it quiet?  
 jowie, with great respect, you (and a few others on here) have misunderstood this point.

It is simply and completely untrue that, as you claim, "the McCanns [have done] everything in their power to keep it quiet".

On the contrary, go back to the Channel 4/Mentorn Media documentary shown in May 2009 (known as the 'Mockumentary').

There - in a documentary that appears to have been made entirely according to the McCanns' script, the Smith 'sighting' is explicitly mentioned as a 'possible second sighting' of the abductor (despite the very obvious absurdity of an abductor strolling around Praia da Luz for 45 minutes having committed one of the most serious crimes it is possible to commit, all the time carrying a 2-3 stone child).

Then, have a look at Dr Kate McCann's book: 'madeleine'. There, not only is the Smith sighting mentioned, but all the hundreds of thousands of people who have read the book are given, on pages 370-372, a detailed description of him and are asked to look for him. PLUS we are told that 'Tanner-man' and 'Smith-man' are one and the same: "the similarities speak for themselves" - Kate, p. 371). This is despite Tanner-man having 'long, black hair' and Smith-man having 'short, brown hair'. Oh well.

Now, Deadwood/Totesholz/Boismort has elevated the Smith sighting into words which have been given descriptions such as 'chief suspect', 'may hold the key' (or, 'may not hold the key'), 'breakthrough' etc. etc. With 'computerised' e-fits which look like two different people. Oh well.

If I was new to this case and observing these details for the first time, I might jump to the assumption that this steady progression and elevation in status of a sighting in which all three 'witnesses' said they 'wouldn't be able to recognise him again', was...

...planned.
When you consider that a man Mrs Cooper saw wandering around Praia da Luz nearly a week before the McCanns arrived doing nothing more than "looking creepy" was given a police-style e-fit and great big press conference presented by Clarence Mitchell, I would say this sighting was indeed kept relatively quiet. Don't forget also that a Posh Spice lookalike seen by an anonymous British partygoer in Barcelona three days after Maddie disappeared also got the press conference and e-fit treatment despite the fact that she was also NOT seen with a child, though - shock, horror! - she did mention she was waiting for her daughter.

Compared with the fanfare attached to these two totally inconsequential 'sightings', I do think the Smith sighting was strangely overlooked by the McCanns. Strange, because here was a man, in the very place Madeleine went missing, seen holding a child fitting their daughter's description. 

Learning now that their detectives had sketches of this man and yet apparently sat on them all this time is all the more bizarre - except, of course, that we know that Mr Smith later identified the man as Gerry. However, an innocent Kate and Gerry must have known that the man wasn't Gerry (and the sketches are by no means exactly like him) so why didn't they promote them anyway? It was their very best lead, and if their daughter's kidnapper resembled Gerry what could they do about it? Their daughter's Gerry-lookalike kidnapper still needed to be found, didn't he? 

For me, the interesting thing about the Smith sighting isn't so much whether or not he was the abductor or Gerry or an innocent passer by, but the fact that the McCanns would rather spend their time and money tracking down women in Spain or creepy blokes hanging around before their arrival in Portugal than on this man who was, apparently, in the right place at the right time with what sounded very much like the right child. That, to me, is odd.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Upsy Daisy on 18.10.13 15:08

Cadaver odour doesn't appear straight away (?) Perhaps an explanation that the dogs didn't signal GM's clothes? Perhaps KM went to the hide-y spot after when cadaverine had had time to develop, embraced her daughter before she was taken somewhere else (during their 4 am search-GM/KM) ? Did not GM's beige trousers disappear, just like the pink blanket? all imo.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 18.10.13 15:12

@Tony Bennett wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I have to say that I do not like people changing peoples names.  I have pulled up posters here for that reason.  I have no reason to mistrust Det.Chief Inspector Andy Redwood at this moment in time.
 OK, I'd like to say 'sorry' to you and to Admin for a lapse from this forum's usually high standards. I have to agree with both you and ShuBob that it is not appropriate and detracts from, rather than reinforcing, any argument, to use alternative names as I have done.

There was an old 'Dixon of Dock Green' episode about a bent copper. 'Dixon' introduced the programme with the words: "There's no person on earth lower than a bent copper', and the way he said it was with utter contempt in his voice (OK, I know it was only acting).

Almost by accident, I stumbled 7 years ago on the fact that they not only existed in the UK, but had proliferated in very considerable numbers. One way or another, I have been researching them.

If Andy Redwood is an honest officer doing an honest job, I trust he will forgive my comments on this forum.

However, as you know, I am sorry that I cannot agree with your statement: "I have no reason to mistrust Det.Chief Inspector Andy Redwood at this moment in time".

I trust we can agree to disagree on that point.



Of course Tony, we all have our own opinions.  There are 'bad apples' in every organisation.  But although some of the things Andy Redwood has said and done do not seem appropriate, for such a serious enquiry, ie sitting on breakfast sofas and the now famous 'she could be alive or sadly dead' ...... I always prefer to wait and hope that what he said about being there 'for Madeleine' is true and we see justice done.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 18.10.13 15:17

Popcorn I agree with your post, and to add that this family was an independent sighting, and not one of their own group, you would think it would have had maximum publicity.   As you said we had press conferences for others but not this one........why?  Have they every mentioned it in all the interviews they have done, can anyone remember at all?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by galena on 18.10.13 15:18

@jowie wrote:
@Sietah wrote:The cadaverdog didn't smell death on GM's clothes, that makes it impossoble it was GM carrying a dead child?
How do we know the child was dead ?  Could he have been carrying someone else's child?
I think that once you assume the child was not Madeleine it is a fair assumption that the man if he existed was not Gerry.  He's a pretty average bloke - average height and build, brown hair and there must be many many men who fit his description. 

I suppose it IS possible that he was carrying Madeleine and she was sick but still alive?  Could he have been taking her to the church?  Are the McCanns that good Catholics?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by russiandoll on 18.10.13 15:25

candyfloss wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@ShuBob wrote:Tony, I think it's beneath you to refer to Redwood as Deadwood sad 
Online dictionary definition of idioms:

dead wood = people in a group or organisation who are not useful any more and who need to be removed:

e.g. "There's a lot of dead wood in the team which needs to be cleared out".

Do you have any faith and trust in him?
DCI Redwood felt honoured to be put in charge of this case. I hope he revisits those words on a daily basis.
I have to say that I do not like people changing peoples names.  I have pulled up posters here for that reason.  I have no reason to mistrust Det.Chief Inspector Andy Redwood at this moment in time.
   Me neither CF and I don't like the insinuation that Martin Smith is a liar, without anything to back this up.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Curioser on 18.10.13 15:27

I think the Smith family sightings are real. Different people notice different things. I wouldn't notice a person's clothes at all probably but I would notice gait. 

I reckon GM was carrying Maddie's body to hide it. There was some reason they didn't want there to be an autopsy. Either sedation, fear of child abuse charges or evidence of sexual abuse.

So he had to get rid of the body - he's a cold fish. A person who cuts people for a living, a person who feels comfortable making money out of his missing / dead child.

Gerry carries Madeleine down the stairs near G5A and notices Jez coming up the hill. He quickly places the body in the bushes and goes out on the street to talk to Jez. He waits until Jez is gone, picks up Madeleine and carries her towards the beach.

So he carries her through the streets towards...who knows where. It's a cold night. The resort town is not crowded. He's careful. He checks the streets are empty. Before heading down the hill on Rua da Escola Primaria he checks there is no-one about. He starts down the street. Suddenly a group of people appear from nowhere. He either didn't know about or forgot about the stairs that lead up from the pub. He hides his face as he passes them.


When he gets back to the apartment he takes off his clothes. The button trousers are in the photos of the main bedroom on the bed. I think he put them and his fleece or jumper in the cupboard. The cadaverine scent came off them. Then he got rid of them. Certainly they are not in the list of items checked by the sniffer dogs.

Cadaverine takes between 90 minutes to 2 hours to develop apparently. If the smell was only on the front of his trousers where her little legs and feet were, perhaps it wouldn't transfer to the bed. Or if his coat or fleece was long then perhaps the smell was only on them and not the trews. I don't know.

I don't know. Just speculation. scratchhead

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by galena on 18.10.13 15:31

@Curioser wrote:I think the Smith family sightings are real. Different people notice different things. I wouldn't notice a person's clothes at all probably but I would notice gait. 

I reckon GM was carrying Maddie's body to hide it. There was some reason they didn't want there to be an autopsy. Either sedation, fear of child abuse charges or evidence of sexual abuse.

So he had to get rid of the body - he's a cold fish. A person who cuts people for a living, a person who feels comfortable making money out of his missing / dead child.

Gerry carries Madeleine down the stairs near G5A and notices Jez coming up the hill. He quickly places the body in the bushes and goes out on the street to talk to Jez. He waits until Jez is gone, picks up Madeleine and carries her towards the beach.

So he carries her through the streets towards...who knows where. It's a cold night. The resort town is not crowded. He's careful. He checks the streets are empty. Before heading down the hill on Rua da Escola Primaria he checks there is no-one about. He starts down the street. Suddenly a group of people appear from nowhere. He either didn't know about or forgot about the stairs that lead up from the pub. He hides his face as he passes them.


When he gets back to the apartment he takes off his clothes. The button trousers are in the photos of the main bedroom on the bed. I think he put them and his fleece or jumper in the cupboard. The cadaverine scent came off them. Then he got rid of them. Certainly they are not in the list of items checked by the sniffer dogs.

Cadaverine takes between 90 minutes to 2 hours to develop apparently. If the smell was only on the front of his trousers where her little legs and feet were, perhaps it wouldn't transfer to the bed. Or if his coat or fleece was long then perhaps the smell was only on them and not the trews. I don't know.

I don't know. Just speculation. scratchhead
Problem is that this doesn't explain where he hid the body and how the cadaverine odour was traced to their hire car ... Or why he didn't put the body in his sports bag - that would have attracted far less suspicion?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by ShuBob on 18.10.13 15:33

@russiandoll wrote: Me neither CF and I don't like the insinuation that Martin Smith is a liar, without anything to back this up.
Personally, I think that insinuation is totally out of order given no evidence whatsoever has been produced.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Curioser on 18.10.13 15:39

That's true Galena. I have no idea where he put her. And I have no idea why he would carry her exposed like that. Arrogance and gall are my only guesses. He has plenty of both imho.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by statsman on 18.10.13 15:43

Popcorn,

I totally agree with you and I trust this has not gone unnoticed by SY either.

TM's absolute determination to make JT's sighting as the abductor is now rebounding on them.

I think the same thing will happen regarding their other 'stories' - shutters jemmied, dogs unreliable, Payne's 5.30 visit, etc

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by russiandoll on 18.10.13 15:46

 curiouser  :  Gerry is not a surgeon. He is a physician and even if he were a surgeon, why would that be relevant?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by logical on 18.10.13 15:55

so the Entire Smith family made up the Story Tony ???

Young Aoife Smith made up her discription of the clothes the man was wearing  which happens to be identical to Gerry Mcanns uncommon buttons on the side trousers ??

You and Petermc  therefore disagree with Goncalo Amaral and Pat Browns belief in this Smith sighting??

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by russiandoll on 18.10.13 16:00

Seeing that people have noted the absence of Russell and Jane at a crucial part of the timeline, have you considered that they were not attending to a sick child at all, but doing something else?

 And that might be connected to a very much alive, deeply asleep little blonde girl aged 3-4 being carried by a man seen by Mr Smith and his family?

  A man who wanted to be seen but not quite in the way it turned out?

  And so an alibi was needed for another time and location -  hence the birth of Tannerman.

  She was not telling a complete lie about bundleman imo : she HAD seen during the timeline a man carrying a blonde girl in pjs. Not worn by Maddie, however, hence her giving a detailed description. They belonged to and were worn by her daughter is what I believe happened.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by tiny on 18.10.13 16:09

@russiandoll wrote:Seeing that people have noted the absence of Russell and Jane at a crucial part of the timeline, have you considered that they were not attending to a sick child at all, but doing something else?

 And that might be connected to a very much alive, deeply asleep little blonde girl aged 3-4 being carried by a man seen by Mr Smith and his family?

  A man who wanted to be seen but not quite in the way it turned out?

  And so an alibi was needed for another time and location -  hence the birth of Tannerman.

  She was not telling a complete lie about bundleman imo : she HAD seen during the timeline a man carrying a blonde girl in pjs. Not worn by Maddie, however, hence her giving a detailed description. They belonged to and were worn by her daughter is what I believe happened.
I don't think jane tanner saw any bundleman that night,dont forget it was a chilly night and jane said this child was in jimjams and barefoot,what sort of father would take a child out like that with no coat or blanket wrapped round the child.no sorry to my mind jane tanner is a liar through and through

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 18.10.13 16:19

candyfloss wrote: [...]I have to say that I do not like people changing peoples names.  I have pulled up posters here for that reason.  I have no reason to mistrust Det.Chief Inspector Andy Redwood at this moment in time.
***
Me neither. IMO he's playing a very clever game. he's determined and will hold out longest. If calling names, why not Sequoia Sempervirens?
big grin 

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by noddy100 on 18.10.13 16:23

Maybe by allowing the public to 'think' it IS Gerry by pushing the Smith sighting and then exonerating him on teh statements of others about hid whereabouts they will be home and dry with their abduction theory even though the 'abductor' will never be found. I think if Ben Needham's parents keep up the pressure SY and the Govt will want to wrap the Mccann thing up swiftly as there is no way they can have 2 of these cases running simultaneously in a country in a recession.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Cheshire Cat on 18.10.13 16:43

@noddy100 wrote:Maybe by allowing the public to 'think' it IS Gerry by pushing the Smith sighting and then exonerating him on teh statements of others about hid whereabouts they will be home and dry with their abduction theory even though the 'abductor' will never be found. I think if Ben Needham's parents keep up the pressure SY and the Govt will want to wrap the Mccann thing up swiftly as there is no way they can have 2 of these cases running simultaneously in a country in a recession.
This is something I have thought about. It could well exonerate Gerry in the eyes of the public who are in ignorance of the dogs findings and many other aspects of the case. Pat Brown most certainly does not trust Redwood, see her blog.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by ShuBob on 18.10.13 16:50

In this age where journalists are being prosecuted for all sorts of alleged wrongdoing and with police forces under the spotlight following a series of scandals (Savile, Hillsborough, 'Plebgate' etc), are the MET really going to attempt a whitewash?

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going to church

Post by dotdot on 18.10.13 16:51

imagining the scenario that it was GM carrying her towards the church - is it not possible that he was taking her to the church to hide her?  it still bothers me that the McCanns later got the keys to the church from the priest, so they could pray (alone?) or something along those lines? - i realise they didnt get the keys until after she went missing, but if she had died sometime before (i.e. the 1st) and someone in the church was somehow in on it, and agreed that her body could be stashed there (in a freezer? somewhere hidden?) i dunno,  just thinking out loud...) (didnt the priest also say something like 'not my decision' when later asked why he gave the McCanns the keys?) perhaps they were given the keys so that they could later transport her body to its final place using the rental car in time when the church was not open.  probably not as well read on this as the rest of you, but im getting there, and the whole giving the chuch key to the McCanns thing is weird to me., and raised alarm bells in my mind that he may have been carrying her there..  just thoughts...

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by comperedna on 18.10.13 17:23

Just for the record, I still have hopes that DCI Redwood is playing a long game, and being steady and thorough. I prefer that idea to: 'the man sent to do the whitewashing' one, though both are possible.  Also, he may be co-operating quietly and well with the PJ. We don't know, we can't know at this stage, and what is more we shouldn't know. His dispassionate manner may well hide quite a lot of anger and frustration: he said, with forcefulness, at one point on TV recently:. 'It is never too late. This case has gone on long enough!' After six years we can all certainly agree with that.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Montclair on 18.10.13 17:24

@tiny wrote:
@Sietah wrote:The cadaverdog didn't smell death on GM's clothes, that makes it impossoble it was GM carrying a dead child?
perhaps he change his clothes.
He went to the UK and probably got rid of his clothes then.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Hicks on 18.10.13 17:28

@Montclair wrote:
@tiny wrote:
@Sietah wrote:The cadaverdog didn't smell death on GM's clothes, that makes it impossoble it was GM carrying a dead child?
perhaps he change his clothes.
He went to the UK and probably got rid of his clothes then.
Or took them to the dump. IIRC GM made trips to the local dump for some strange reason.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Q71 on 18.10.13 17:35

Well , Well , Well.

Not quite Boiling Point , but , the Tipping Point.

Like Medieval Keys lay on a cold stone floor - The Door in front of your very eyes.
- Wrong Key / Correct Key.

Smithman - The esteemed Mr TB , most engaging point ` I Don`t Buy It.`

Smithman - Here are the keys , they have been found - they lay untouched.

Question - does this unlock the door  , well , do they - Test the Lock.

Hoax Sighting ? ,  if not , Truth Sighting ? = a Tipping Point.

This Thread , a must , Carry On All !!

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Woofer on 18.10.13 17:41

@Hicks wrote:
@Montclair wrote:
@tiny wrote:
@Sietah wrote:The cadaverdog didn't smell death on GM's clothes, that makes it impossoble it was GM carrying a dead child?
perhaps he change his clothes.
He went to the UK and probably got rid of his clothes then.
Or took them to the dump. IIRC GM made trips to the local dump for some strange reason.
Yes, easy enough to get rid of, but why not advise his dear wife to do the same?

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