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Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Hicks on 18.10.13 22:45

searcher, this throws up the Exeter connection again, JT and RM.

http://textusa.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/sniffer-dogs-found-scent-of-death-on.html.

Interesting reading further down the page.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Searcher on 18.10.13 22:50

Thankyou Hicks; yes Exeter link again.  I would love to see an analysis of a 2-3 May timeline as a possibility and based on material in this particular thread.  Would anyone have the skill to do it?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by sallypelt on 18.10.13 22:58

@Hicks wrote:searcher, this throws up the Exeter connection again, JT and RM.

http://textusa.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/sniffer-dogs-found-scent-of-death-on.html.

Interesting reading further down the page.
Yes, Hicks, and look at Google images for Jane Tanner, and you will see her there in PDL with JEANS ON

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Searcher on 18.10.13 23:09

Hicks - thankyou; what an amazing link!!  The bag of clothes, fleece, jeans, DNA traces/bodily fluid in story from News of the World is major stuff.  Have never read that before.  I will re-read.  Do both Dr. Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner (as partners) have Devon (or Exeter) connections? 

Also, how seriously could we take that from the NoW, and why has it never been reproduced?  I have read quite widely and never found it.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Curioser on 18.10.13 23:24

@russiandoll wrote:
 curiouser  :  Gerry is not a surgeon. He is a physician and even if he were a surgeon, why would that be relevant?
I beg your pardon russiondoll. I'm showing my newbieness again. It's reported all over the place that he's a heart surgeon but you're quite correct. He's a cardiologist. http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/cardiovascular-sciences/people/mccann

So take that bit of hyperbole out - the relevance was that he's a cold fish - what do you think about the rest of it?

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I have no direct knowledge of the case. I'm just reading the files. It's all speculation. Don't sue me!

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Tony Bennett on 18.10.13 23:30

@littlepixie wrote:@Tony

But in whose interests was Kennedy working?

I always thought it was the McCanns as that is what we were told to believe or they wanted us to believe, but now I'm not so sure.
Kennedy employed Metodo 3. He met with their investigators, and trravelled with them to Portugal. He flew to Morocco and worked actively with Metodo 3 men based temporarily in that country.

It was Metodo 3 who met with Portuguese lawyer Marcos Aragao Correia at the Arade Dam on 10 December 2007, seven weeks before the search for Madeleine's bones in the same lake.

It was Marcos Aragao Correia (now in Brazil) who was also contracted to represent murderess-of-her-own-child Leonor Cipriano, taking over from her previous lawyer on 8 April 2008. His main purpose, as he made clear later, was not to help his client (in which he failed) but to 'get Goncalo Amaral' (in which he succeeded).

I have collated some facts about Kennedy up the thread and have added a few more.

I feel however - sorry - that I cannot answer your question.


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                            "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?" - Amelie, May 2007 -  "Maddie's Jammies. Where is Maddie?"


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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Searcher on 18.10.13 23:31

I am always interested in a change of pattern as possibly significant.  One change of pattern is given on the night of 2 May when KM sleeps with the children and not GM, either because 'he is asleep and snoring when she returns to the apartment', or because she was 'angry for him for flirting'.

I can only see it as an odd change of pattern on that particular night.  Again it makes me wonder if something happened 2 May, not 3rd.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by littlepixie on 18.10.13 23:38

@Tony

Thanks for you reply. I understand.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Lance De Boils on 19.10.13 11:33

Looking again at the area of the Smith sighting, I'm convinced that IF the child being carried was indeed Maddie, "Smith-man" would have turned right at the bottom of that alleyway. To turn left in the direction of the Church would have meant walking past bars (incl Kelly's) and restaurants. I reckon Smith-man would have been trying to avoid the places he was most likely to be seen, and therefore headed away from the busier areas.
If he turned right, just a little way along there is an area of wasteland, with a small shed in the middle. Cutting across this ground would take him directly to the seafront. And I believe that far more probable than to head for the church area. 

That's if I've got the location of the sighting correct in my mind....

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Searcher on 19.10.13 11:39

Lance de Boils - does this take him in the direction of the 'marina' or the sea front?  I have always been confused about this.  I am interested because it was reported at the time (no ref.) that "a boat owned by a British person which had been moored for two years and not taken out, went out on the night of 3 May."  I saw that report only once and never again.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Lance De Boils on 19.10.13 11:41

Isn't the nearest marina in Lagos? Or have I got that wrong?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Searcher on 19.10.13 11:46

I have no idea Lance de Boils; but I do know for sure it was written, and in the context of checking boats moored in the area. It would be useful to know where the nearest boats were moored, and if in Lagos how far away is that, must be several miles.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Guest on 19.10.13 12:00

Please consult the excellent analysis Textusa had made of this solitary walker, his route, his clothing and his demeanor.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Searcher on 19.10.13 12:04

Thankyou Portia; would you possibly have a link?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by jowie on 19.10.13 13:32

@Searcher wrote:I have no idea Lance de Boils; but I do know for sure it was written, and in the context of checking boats moored in the area. It would be useful to know where the nearest boats were moored, and if in Lagos how far away is that, must be several miles.
Yes the marina is in Lagos. I may be wrong here but from memory it is about a 20 - 30  min drive away from PDL.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Searcher on 19.10.13 14:22

Thankyou.  I am still interested in the suggestion that one of T9 hired a car during that week and that it made a journey.  Any links much appreciated.  Smithman was en route somewhere.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Hicks on 19.10.13 14:24

@Searcher wrote:I have no idea Lance de Boils; but I do know for sure it was written, and in the context of checking boats moored in the area. It would be useful to know where the nearest boats were moored, and if in Lagos how far away is that, must be several miles.
Didn't Charlotte Pennington see a man in a small dinghy (kicking at something) at 11.30 on the seafront? That cannot be very far away.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by ConcernedCitizen on 19.10.13 14:31



Tony Bennett
There are two other questions to consider.
Where was 'Smith-man' coming FROM - with a young child in pyjamas at 10.00pm on a coldish early May night
AND
Did the Smith family actually see anyone at all - or is this a fabrication? - made up to 'rescue' a man he was already well acquainted with - Robert Murat

 
I’m sure Scotland Yard are trying to answer that 1st question.  If the Smith-man can be identified, then they will be able to figure out where the man was coming from.  Presumably some of their men on the ground in Portugal? have also already put together some theories as to where he could have been coming from.
How “well acquainted” with Robert Murat do you think Smith is?  You can meet a person 2, 3, even 4 times, and still not be well acquainted with them.


Tony Bennett
In his statement, Martin Smith said:
"States that it is
 not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph. Adds that in May and August of 2006, he saw ROBERT MURAT in Praia da Luz bars. On one of these occasions, the first, he was inebriated and spoke to everyone. He did not wear glasses at that time. He also states that the individual who carried the child was not ROBERT. He would have recognised him immediately.
I find the three statements I have bolded in blue of interest.

 
Smith, even without his spectacles on at the time of the sighting, could have recognised that it was NOT Murat.  If he had encountered Murat on previous occasions, the gait and general features of Murat may well have been all he would have needed to have ruled him out.  And, there were 2 other Smith family members who saw the man; and neither of the 2 e-fits released look like Murat.  You seem to be hinting at the possibility that the e-fits may be fakes.




The first statement “it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph” was made BEFORE he saw GM walking off the plane.  If he had never encountered the man, it is understandable that he might make such a statement.  When you pick someone out of a line-up you have to be sure, not just 60% sure (this may very well be another reason why SY want new people to come forward with any new information about this man).
 
Tony Bennett
2. Did the Smiths really notice that much detail about the man they said they saw?



Apparently they did as can be seen from the statement Mr. Smith gave on 26th May 2007 >> http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm ... unless the Smith family have all committed perjury, which seems doubtful.


Tony Bennett
4.  There are discrepancies between what Martin says about this 'sighting' and what his wife and son Peter say


In the statement Mr. Smith gave on the 26th May 2007 >> http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm he said that “the group walked some metres apart from each other so they would have seen the individual in different positions”, which could well be one good reason for the 2 different looking e-fits (one with a pointed chin and the other with a squarer looking jawline).


Tony Bennett 
Then, have a look at Dr Kate McCann's book: 'madeleine'. There, not only is the Smith sighting mentioned, but all the hundreds of thousands of people who have read the book are given, on pages 370-372, a detailed description of him and are asked to look for him. PLUS we are told that 'Tanner-man' and 'Smith-man' are one and the same: "the similarities speak for themselves" - Kate, p. 371). This is despite Tanner-man having 'long, black hair' and Smith-man having 'short, brown hair'. Oh well.

Now, Deadwood/Totesholz/Boismort has elevated the Smith sighting into words which have been given descriptions such as 'chief suspect', 'may hold the key' (or, 'may not hold the key'), 'breakthrough' etc. etc. With 'computerised' e-fits which look like two different people. Oh well.

If I was new to this case and observing these details for the first time, I might jump to the assumption that this steady progression and elevation in status of a sighting in which all three 'witnesses' said they 'wouldn't be able to recognise him again', was...

...planned.

 
One can assume logically that if SY have identified the man Jane Tanner saw, to cross their T’s SY would have also examined the possibility that it may have been the man the Smith family saw.  Presumably they ruled it out.


Galena
I think that once you assume the child was not Madeleine it is a fair assumption that the man if he existed was not Gerry.  He's a pretty average bloke - average height and build, brown hair and there must be many many men who fit his description. 
 
If the police do not know who the man is, and they do not know precisely where Madeleine was at that time of evening, they cannot work on the assumption the man is not relevant to the case.  Average bloke or not, they must assume that he may be a person of interest, given the Smith family have said they saw this man carrying a child.  It may, or may not, be something.


If you amalgamate the 2 e-fits together to give one image (which a professor from the University of Stirling has done), this mystery man does bear a resemblance to GM.  Whether this is merely coincidental is something the police investigating this case, with the aid of a lot of taxpayers’ money, should attempt to find an answer to, given no-one has yet found Madeleine.
 
Tony Bennett
Yes, but I want to know in what direction the sands are starting to shift.



For six years, five months and eleven days, we have been asked to look for a faceless man with long black hair wearing a dark brown jacket, mustard chinos and long black pointy shoes, as drawn by Melissa Little under the supervision of Brian Kennedy, and released to the public nearly six months after he was 'seen'.


Now we are looking for a bloke said to have been seen carrying a child in pyjamas at 10.00pm on a coldish early May night, by three separate members of the Smith family, none of whom said they would recognise him again if they saw him (except that it was NOT ROBERT MURAT), who then, after Brian Kennedy spoke to Martin Smith, drew up (with the help of the McCann Team's private investigators) two (completely different) e-fits of the man they said they'd seen, which have not been shown to the puiblic for five years - and which have now been 'computerised' after two-and-a-half years' work and £6 million spent by DCI Andy Redwood's team.


Is that the 'shifting sands'?
 
The above post was taken from another thread (http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t8189p20-quick-summary-of-12-page-sun-pull-out-madeleine-supplement-today) but I’m re-posting it here for reference.
As noted previously, all 3 of the Smith family members gave statements in May 2007 that said it is not possible/probable to recognise the individual in person or by photograph, and this was done BEFORE Mr. Smith saw GM walking off the plane.  If all 3 Smith family members had never encountered the man they saw that evening, it is understandable that they might make such a statement.  When you pick someone out of a line-up or photograph you have to be sure, not just 60% sure.


If the 2 e-fits sat in the McCanns’ PIs file for 5 years, then other than carelessness or incompetence one could theorise something else from this – e.g. the McCanns genuinely thought that Tanner-man and Smith-man were the same man, so they persisted with the e-fit drawn up of Tanner-man (which is why in Kate’s book – p. 371 –  she says “the similarities speak for themselves”) ... or perhaps the Smith family have actually identified a person who IS connected with Madeleine’s disappearance and they (the McCanns and/or others) wished to keep a lid on it.
 
dotdot
notlongnowFor some reason the church keeps cropping up in my mind as a key factor in the case.
me too!  WHY were they given the keys???


It is a key factor.  Someone else has already addressed this in the thread (and many other times over the years), but I re-state it.  The Portuguese priest said “it’s not me who decides” followed by silence, when he was asked about whether it was normal for the church keys to be handed out.  He has said it was the British priest (name?) called in by Madeleine’s parents who staged everything.  Goncalo Amaral also believes the priests know what happened that night.  http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.com.au/2009/07/goncalo-amaral-priests-also-know-very.html


If you look at the astrology, 2 things which stand out are the Smith sighting and the church location >> http://astrologyincrime.com/2012/12/05/hell-and-sectarianism-pt1/ .... so, if the man the Smiths saw was not GM, then he may very well be someone CONNECTED TO GM.  .... and there is definitely a strong church connection to this case.
How many parents of missing children do you know that have met with the Pope; and within 3 weeks?


If it's true that the e-fits given by the Smiths sat in the file of a police investigator (hired by the McCanns) for 5 years then that is telling.  WHY would parents looking for their missing daughter not go out of their way to get these e-fits out to the public?   


---


Several people don’t believe that GM would go out into the street in open view with Madeleine and risk being seen .... if a man had someone (or something) that they needed to protect (or hide), they would do it.  There is no perfect crime.


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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Searcher on 19.10.13 14:55

It seems to be quite plausible that GM (or someone) would take the risk of walking through the streets on that night.  We have to remember that what seems in-credible in the wake of such media frenzy, was a decision made in a quiet resort, out of season, fairly deserted, without the hindsight of events to follow.   I believe there was a planned rendezvous of some kind, en route to somewhere.  In those circumstances, it may have been the only option and, under cover of relative darkness, late, seemed fairly safe at the time.  I still ask, did someone in T9 have access to a car and make journey in that week?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by notlongnow on 19.10.13 15:02

Can the priest not be forced to talk?
Has he ever been interviewed?
Are priests untouchable? (excuse the pun)

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Searcher on 19.10.13 15:11

I don't know much at all about Catholic confession, but there is an absolute law of confidentiality and that nothing must be revealed.  I would wonder tho, that each priest would have their own confessional with a priest above them, and so on, probably right up to the Pope.  This is pure conjecture on my part and perhaps someone with more understanding of the Catholic faith could say?

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Q71 on 19.10.13 16:37

Martin Smith watches BBC News , 10PM , 9th September 2007.

RE: The McCanns return to the UK.

Smith sighting sent by Stuart Prior.

Relating back his original Smithman sighting : 

` It was like watching an action replay of the night he saw the male carrying the child back in Portugal. `

` The way GM was carrying the twin TRIGGERED something in his head. `

` It was exactly the same way and LOOK of the male seen the night Maddie went missing. `

After later watching Sky and ITV news :

` It looked like the same person both times. ` - PJ Police File , Quote ` He sounded quite worried and shaken whilst speaking. `

1606 to 1610 Witness testimony of Martin Smith taken 2007/05/26  with map of sighting.


The exact point that GA had arrived at before becoming surplus to requirements.

GA`s very own tipping point , before the rug was pulled.

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Q71 on 19.10.13 16:53

...More..

` Something struck me it could be the same person , it was the way GM TURNED HIS HEAD which was similar to WHAT the individual did
on May 3RD 2007 when we met. `


60 / 80 % SURE -

` I am basing that on the MANNERISM in the way he carried the child of the plane. `

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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by Tony Bennett on 19.10.13 17:10

ConcernedCitizen has brought over a post of mine from another thread where 'Smith-man' is being discussed.

I will now bring Nereid's post over from that thread:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Today at 3:38 pm

Tony Bennett wrote:

Thank you Nereid, it is some time since I read all the Smith statements so couldn't recall if Mr or Mrs Smith did say anything about speaking to 'Smith-man'.

As you know from the other Smith thread, I have major doubts about whether we can believe anything the Smiths say about this, and you have just reinforced my concerns.

Add to that, this:

1. We know Martin Smith spoke to Brian Kennedy. Neither of them has told us when. It's not in Kate's book.

2. We know from the Sun and elsewhere that Martin Smith (and presumably other members of his family also) met up with the McCanns' private investigators. Neither of them has told us when. It's not in Kate's book.

3. We know from the Sun and elsewhere that 'the McCanns' private investigators' drew up two e-fits of 'Smith-Man', with the help of the Smith family. Neither of them has told us when. It's not in Kate's book.

4. It is probable that all these events took place after the McCanns flew home on 9 September and Martin Smith had his own 'revelation moment': 'My goodness, I'm 60% to 80% certain I saw Gerry McCann at 10,00pm on 3 May 2007'.

5. The private investigators [= The McCann Team] never publicised these e-fits for five years.

Nereid says: There’s more:

Martin Smith statement of 26th May 2007: He was wearing cream or beige-coloured cloth trousers in a classic cut. He did not notice the body clothing and cannot describe the colour or fashion of the same.

Aoife Smith statement of 26th May 2007: “Trousers: smooth ‘rights’ along the legs, beige, cotton fabric, thicker than linen, possibly with buttons, no other decoration. She did not see what he was wearing above his trousers as the child covered him almost completely at the top.

Peter Smith statement of 26th May 2007: “He also does not remember the clothing the individual wore or his shoes.”

And then an additional statement from Martin Smith on 30th January 2008: “Wearing beige trousers and darkish top maybe a jacket or blazer.”
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some hints about the Private Investigators:

The Sun, 3 January 2008

“PRIVATE detectives hunting for Madeleine McCann are to quiz an Irish family who may have been the last to see her alive.”

Daily Mail, 3 January 2008

“The McCanns’ spokesman said yesterday: “Our detectives are being very methodical and I am quite sure that this family will be on their list.”

-----------------------------------------------

Then there is this letter sent 30th January 2008

“Detective Branch
Drogheda
County Lough

Re – Investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann

I took an additional statement from Mr Smith as requested. His wife does not want to make another statement. I showed him the video clip and he stated that it was not the clip that alerted him but the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007.

He has been contacted by numerous tabloid press looking for stories. He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits. He sent a solicitor’s letter to six papers in relation material that was printed that was misquoted. The Evening Herald paid his solicitor’s fees and all papers printed an apology. His photograph appeared in another tabloid paper and this matter is being pursued at the moment.

I do not believe that Martin Smith is courting the press and my view his is a genuine person. He is known locally and is a very decent person.

Forwarded please

Sergeant

Liam Hogan”

It says his wife does not want to make another statement, which is odd, as she never made one in the first place, as far as is known.

Can’t find anything about which papers printed an apology. I think those apologies were something to with how well Mr. Martin knew Murat. Will see if I can find out more.

Of course the e-fits might have been made later with Metodo3.

---------------------------------

And then there is this to add to the confusion, though newspapers get it wrong all the time of course:

http://www.herald.ie/news/irish-couple-to-help-new-maddie-probe-28003417.html

Niall O'Connor – 19 March 2012 10:05 AM

AN Irish family holidaying in the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz on the night Madeleine McCann went missing say they will "fully cooperate" with any new police probe.

Louth couple Martin and Mary Smith were quizzed by investigators after they claimed to have seen a man carrying a young child through the town on the night of the May 3, 2007.

Madeleine was almost four years old when she vanished from her bed in her parents' apartment at the Ocean Club holiday resort in Praia da Luz between 9.35pm and 10pm on May 3, 2007.

Despite a massive police investigation and huge publicity worldwide, she has not been found. However it has now emerged that a group of Portuguese detectives have been appointed to carry out a fresh review of the investigation.

Now, the Irish couple who were interviewed by police following the girl's disappearance are bracing themselves to be reinterviewed.

Reports in British newspapers have claimed Scotland Yard officers will approach the Smith family in the coming weeks as they attempt to construct a photofit on the prime suspect.


Most of the above information is from http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html


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Tony Bennett
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Re: Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Post by PeterMac on 19.10.13 17:17

I had forgotten that it was KATE who conflated Tannerman and Smithman, insisting they were one and the same.
(Anyone who doubted her word would be in grave danger from Carter-Ruck, as we know )
In so doing, she has, of course, hindered the search for the past 6 years.

The public trashing of Tannerman has more implications that I think they realised when they let Redwood do it.

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