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Gerry's clothes

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by HelenMeg on 08.04.14 15:28

@woodforthetrees wrote:I can see that the 'use a decoy with a live, albeit sedated child' theory answering why no cadaver was found on those clothes (we are pressuming this is GM), but if the dead body was both stored and then subsequently moved from the apartment, it would most likely be done by GM. More importantly, if it was a planned decoy, the 'child carrier' would be wearing a hat or something else to obscure his face??

If cadaver scent was found at the drivers side of the hire car, then it must've also been on his clothes. Surely the police would've thought of that and confiscated the clothes GM was wearing when in the car? More importantly, if those clothes have mysteriously dissapeared, it would build the case of circumstantial evidence against him?

So, onto the second point.... if there is a theory that certain members of the Tapas assited with 'the plan' then they too would have cadaver scent on them/their clothes/apartments etc? Were their clothes and their apartments not checked by the dogs as well?

Also, if the tapas were also 'taking it in turns to check the McCann kids', they too would've been contaminated with cadaver scent after coming into contact with cuddle cat etc within apartment? Whether cadaver scent from MBM or another body?

hmmmm...
Isn't this why Jane Tanner denies vehemently having brought jeans on holiday?  Isnt there the belief that JT disposed of the jeans that may have been carrying cadaver scent. I'm sure it is in this forum somewhere...

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by Guest on 08.04.14 15:37

@HelenMeg wrote:
Andrew77R wrote: 
Well I believe GM was carrying a live child as you cannot carry  a dead child in the same way. You have to carry a dead child stretched out.  I have confirmed this with some doctors - there is no way you can carry a dead child up over the shoulder as did Smithman. Therefore that is why I believe Smithman carried a 'live' child.  You talk about risk - but imagine the risk of carrying a 'dead child ' and being caught out... It has to be 100 times worse than carrying a live child. You can explain away a live child.

Anyway, the main thing for me is to carry a dead child you have to support it in a completely different manner as they cannot hold their heads up etc etc ... but we can disagree - its no big problem
I'm not sure if that is impossible but do believe you if you have seeked medical expertise on the matter.

However we are dealing with other medical experts who are complicit in this mystery and i'm sure they would know what to do to a deceased body in order to be able to carry it and support like a live child. 

Extremely risky in both scenarios. If he was stopped, seen or identified carrying a live child then how could he explain that away when his daughter has just been 'abducted'.

Obviously all IMO but as posted earlier HelenMag he had no choice but to carry a deceased MBM away and that IMO is what he did.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by aiyoyo on 08.04.14 15:37

Andrew77R wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:He would have had to put distance between Maddie's body from the Police and the Search before staging the scene.  No sense for him to be heading away from the Resort when the alarm was being raised without knowing where he was going to dump a body, how far he was going to have to go before spotting a suitable spot  and then there's concern of having to return in useful time for the other charade.

To hide the body successfully requires some planning and maybe help, not spur of the moment hasty dumping.






Doesn't make sense at all - i totally agree.

I believe there had been some immense pre-planning in this before the raised alarm. (at least 24 hours, maybe longer)

However i am still in the opinion that certain things out of Team Mccann's immediate control changed between those last few hours prior to the alarm being raised.

For what ever reason the alarm had to be raised on the 3rd at around 10pm ish. 

If we believe and i certainly do that there was a lot of pre planning being done then we would not have discrepancies. We would not have hastily written timelines. Invented Tannerman at the last min. Etc etc.

SOMETHING CHANGED that night. The original plan was not going to work. For whatever reason. New timelines, alibi's etc had to be created in a panic and in a rush.

MBM had to be taken away from the complex. GM was the only person that could do that. He did do and was seen and we have SMITHMAN who TM have tried to play down and suppress over the years.

All IMO of course.

IMO her body was well and truly disposed off before the charade starts.

The problem with staging a crime scene is that you can't possibly plan everything down to the last perfect detail without being caught short of not having done this or that. The missing this and that cannot be envisaged until outside elements throw them up in your face.

Your fear adrenalin kicks in once you're faced with a scene of chaos where Police are all over the place, you panicked when you realized your equally panicky friends might not remember who is supposed to remember what , or who is supposed to say what, so being clever, academic and forward thinking people you lot decided to commit the timeline to paper as ref point for people involved little realizing it was going to be confiscated.

Criminals incriminate themselves by the little things they do or didn't do. It is impossible to second guess investigators capacity for details that accounts for many criminals being prosecuted successfully from circumstantial evidence. Things they'd covered or not covered are all open to the interpretations, analytical and critical logic of deduction of the Police.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by Nina on 08.04.14 15:56

@aiyoyo wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:
As you say he could shield his face by the way he carried his child and if anyone saw from a distance then at the time it would look like a father carrying his child back from a night creche.
Would certainly look more suspicious and be more dangerous for an unexposed GM lumping a big blue holdall around the streets to a certain destination.
All IMO.
Our posts crossed.
I keep thinking mid afternoon.  In full view. In a taxi, or given a lift by someone to somewhere not a million miles away. There are plenty of hiding places outside what would become the immediate search area.
For me Smithman may therefore be irrelevant
Just as was Tannerman
I'm not convinced PeterMac.

As i stated in earlier posts on this - i am in the opinion that Smithman is highly relevant and Smithman is GM. 

GM carrying a deceased MBM to a destination for final removal. 

Yes, i believe MBM sadly died before the 3rd but changes in the original plan / script had to change last minute.

GM did not have a choice. He had to get MBM out the complex a.s.a.p at that time otherwise everything would collapse. IMO he had a helping hand for final removal / disposal but something changed and he had to get MBM there as opposed to someone coming for MBM.

He risked it but it was him carrying MBM and was seen by the Smiths and Smithman is Gerry.

All IMO of course.


In his shoes, would you carry a dead child uncovered openly in a public place on foot risking all sorts while your wife is raising the alarm?  Or would you wait until you'd been and back before asking your wife to raise the alarm ?  
How critical is it that the alarm had got to be raised at 10pm?  How would a littler later than that make a difference?  
Why must the alarm absolutely got to be raised on the 3rd, why can it not wait till 4th if she died on the 3rd ?
Why must the alarm absolutely to be raised on the 3rd? Because on the 4th all the little girls in the crèche were to put on a little dance show for the parents, who would sit and ooohhhh and aaahhhh at their little girls and thenwhen the show was over all the little girls would run to their respective Mummy and Daddy for a big hug.
Also there was to be an early pack and leave for flights on the 5th so the night of the 4th would have been shortened. Insufficient time in the Tapas Bar for everything to take place.
All in my opinion of course.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by aiyoyo on 08.04.14 16:55

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@AndyB wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:How critical is it that the alarm had got to be raised at 10pm?  How would a littler later than that make a difference?  
Why must the alarm absolutely got to be raised on the 3rd, why can it not wait till 4th if she died on the 3rd ?
All of these questions are answered if it had been pre-arranged for this time with other people who were then uncontactable. The McCann's would then have been stuck with time frames that were beyond their control

I believe that the alarm was raised before anyone knew that she was dead.  In my opinion that alarm was raised at about 9:35pm, and they found Maddie's body at about 9:45pm - 9:50pm, just as an official search was about to start.

But how does that work ?
Kate swore blind she looked everywhere, inside the cupboard etc couldn't find her and immediately she knew they'd taken her.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by j.rob on 08.04.14 16:59

@AndyB wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:It had to be GM carrying MBM away from the complex. Nobody else in there right mind will volunteer for that job.
I agree and yet Jane Tanner says "I was carrying..." while demonstrating how

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y42_8vggMNQ

That's interesting. Maybe the Tanner sighting was actually Jane Tanner carrying Madeleine?!

I don't really buy into the theory that Gerry wanted to be seen carrying a child away from the resort at 10pm. That doesn't make much sense. He was supposed to be in the resort helping the Ocean Club with their missing child procedure and looking for Madeleine. Why would it help his case to be seen carrying a child who could answer Madeleine's description away from the resort? Surely that incriminates him?

On the other hand, if it was him (or David Payne, say?) I do think it is a bit odd that he did not try to disguise his appearance at all. Perhaps he didn't have time. 

In any event, Kate in her book claims that Tannerman and Smithman are one and the same person so that presumably is why Jane's description is so vague and changes - it has to be someone who looks vaguely like Gerry McCann! (Assuming the Smiths did see Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine away  at around 10pm).

Several eye witnesses report hearing a commotion and news of a missing child well before 10pm - some reports as early as 9.15. So maybe the original plan was for someone to 'jemmy' the shutters (Gerry/Jane/someone else)  to provide concrete 'evidence' of a break in at 9.15pm.  

As others have pointed out, there was a glitch - perhaps Jez Wilkin's appearance put paid to the 'jemmying'.

Suppose at around 9.15pm both Gerry and Jane (and possibly Matt) were 'casing the joint' with the intention of jemmying shutters in the McCann apartment / checking the coast was clear and removing Madeleine (either from that apartment or from one of the friends's apartments). 

It was a two man/woman job (minimum). So Jane is watching out to see if the coast is clear and Gerry is planning on forcing the shutters up. Jane needs to be near the apartment at 9.15pm for all sorts of reasons - to provide an alibi for Gerry, to case the joint, to 'sight' Tannerman, help remove Madeleine and so on

Jez Wilkins appears which prevents Gerry (or someone else)  from jemmying the shutters at 9.15pm.  However, it has the advantage of providing an alibi for Gerry. Curiously, though, although Jane sees both Gerry and Jez, they do not see her. 

Gerry goes back to the table but slightly later than planned - placing the time-lines in jeopardy - and also warning the others of the glitch. 

The alarm, though, has already been raised. It is important that Madeleine is removed from the resort as soon as possible as they have to be sure she will not be found when searches are carried out and police called. 

With Gerry back at the table (which is crucial for both the earlier and later 'alerts' if he is to have an alibi, Jane then removes Madeleine either from whichever apartment she has been in or, possibly, from behind bushes (the faint sniffer dog alert) if that is where Gerry has placed her.

The Matt 'check' at 9.35 is hastily concocted. This allows him to help Jane remove Madeleine or make other necessary adjustments/remove incriminating evidence before the search of the resort and the arrival of the police.  It also, crucially, delays the 'missing child' procedure and the arrival of police. 

The new time frame places Kate as checking at 10pm  and then raising the alarm. In the ensuing chaos Gerry gets up, ostensibly to search, and hastily goes to wherever Madeleine has been placed by Jane and/or Matt  (this is much less risky in terms of being caught than Gerry himself removing Madeleine from their own apartment) and legs it down to the beach.

There is a second glitch - he is seen by the Smith family. 

Yikes! What now? Another confab and the Jane Tanner sighting is born/considered vital. This detracts from the Smith sighting of Gerry as well as providing cover in the event that Jane/Matt (or whoever) was seen carrying Madeleine at around  9.15 - 9.30pm.

The fact that Kate in her book is forced to claim that the man seen by Jane Tanner and the Smiths is likely to be the same, despite the ludicrousness of him wandering around for 40 minutes, suggests to me that the Smith sighting was very much unwanted. 

All in my opinion, of course. Just a theory!

I also think it is possible that at this stage Madeleine was not dead, but heavily sedated and possibly grievously ill.  

I can't believe this group went to such great lengths. It is all extraordinary.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 08.04.14 17:01

@aiyoyo wrote:
@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
I believe that the alarm was raised before anyone knew that she was dead.  In my opinion that alarm was raised at about 9:35pm, and they found Maddie's body at about 9:45pm - 9:50pm, just as an official search was about to start.

But how does that work ?
Kate swore blind she looked everywhere, inside the cupboard etc couldn't find her and immediately she knew they'd taken her.

Are you saying that my hypothesis is invalid because of something Kate said? I'm not sure that I understand.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by Guest on 08.04.14 17:04

@aiyoyo wrote:
@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@AndyB wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:How critical is it that the alarm had got to be raised at 10pm?  How would a littler later than that make a difference?  
Why must the alarm absolutely got to be raised on the 3rd, why can it not wait till 4th if she died on the 3rd ?
All of these questions are answered if it had been pre-arranged for this time with other people who were then uncontactable. The McCann's would then have been stuck with time frames that were beyond their control

I believe that the alarm was raised before anyone knew that she was dead.  In my opinion that alarm was raised at about 9:35pm, and they found Maddie's body at about 9:45pm - 9:50pm, just as an official search was about to start.

But how does that work ?
Kate swore blind she looked everywhere, inside the cupboard etc couldn't find her and immediately she knew they'd taken her.
It's impossible (the bit i highlighted in red).

They knew she died a hell of a long time before the alarm was raised. 

The meticulously cleaning up episode for starters could not have taken place within that time frame given.

There is absolutely no way in the world they only discovered MBM's body at that time. 

Sorry to disagree there.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 08.04.14 17:07

Andrew77R wrote:
It's impossible (the bit i highlighted in red).

They knew she died a hell of a long time before the alarm was raised. 

The meticulously cleaning up episode for starters could not have taken place within that time frame given.

There is absolutely no way in the world they only discovered MBM's body at that time. 

Sorry to disagree there.

No, it isn't impossible at all.  You haven't given any reasons except for the time it would have taken to clean up.  They only had to clean up behind the couch at that point, and they pushed a sofa over the spot anyway.  There was plenty of time later on to totally clean the apartment.

Sorry to disagree with you, Andrew77R.  Give me one simple piece of evidence that makes my hypothesis impossible, and I'll reconsider.  I don't mind people having different opinions to mine in the slightest - of course not - but I do get a little irritated at my opinion being declared 'impossible' with nothing to back it up.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by aiyoyo on 08.04.14 17:11

Andrew77R wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:
As you say he could shield his face by the way he carried his child and if anyone saw from a distance then at the time it would look like a father carrying his child back from a night creche.
Would certainly look more suspicious and be more dangerous for an unexposed GM lumping a big blue holdall around the streets to a certain destination.
All IMO.
Our posts crossed.
I keep thinking mid afternoon.  In full view. In a taxi, or given a lift by someone to somewhere not a million miles away. There are plenty of hiding places outside what would become the immediate search area.
For me Smithman may therefore be irrelevant
Just as was Tannerman
I'm not convinced PeterMac.

As i stated in earlier posts on this - i am in the opinion that Smithman is highly relevant and Smithman is GM. 

GM carrying a deceased MBM to a destination for final removal. 

Yes, i believe MBM sadly died before the 3rd but changes in the original plan / script had to change last minute.

GM did not have a choice. He had to get MBM out the complex a.s.a.p at that time otherwise everything would collapse. IMO he had a helping hand for final removal / disposal but something changed and he had to get MBM there as opposed to someone coming for MBM.

He risked it but it was him carrying MBM and was seen by the Smiths and Smithman is Gerry.

All IMO of course.


In his shoes, would you carry a dead child uncovered openly in a public place on foot risking all sorts while your wife is raising the alarm?  Or would you wait until you'd been and back before asking your wife to raise the alarm ?  
How critical is it that the alarm had got to be raised at 10pm?  How would a littler later than that make a difference?  
Why must the alarm absolutely got to be raised on the 3rd, why can it not wait till 4th if she died on the 3rd ?
I see your point.

However, What if part of the pre planning was actually somebody i.e THEY coming to 'Jemmie' the shutters and actually take a deceased MBM away.

The plan didn't happen. GM was tipped off. He had to get MBM to the beach last minute. He took that risk as he DID NOT HAVE A CHOICE. 

Everything else was in place. HAD TO HAPPEN THAT NIGHT. 

IMO of course

If he discovered that it hadn't gone according to plan, ie shutters not jemmied, more reason to delay the raising of the alarm surely ?
What had to happen that night that cannot be change at if things did not go according to plan....
Another say 60-90 mins later to raise the alarm after he's managed to dump her in a far enough place to avoid search and dogs would not change much in the great scheme of things surely ?



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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by rainbow-fairy on 08.04.14 17:22

Andrew77R wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@AndyB wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:How critical is it that the alarm had got to be raised at 10pm?  How would a littler later than that make a difference?  
Why must the alarm absolutely got to be raised on the 3rd, why can it not wait till 4th if she died on the 3rd ?
All of these questions are answered if it had been pre-arranged for this time with other people who were then uncontactable. The McCann's would then have been stuck with time frames that were beyond their control

I believe that the alarm was raised before anyone knew that she was dead.  In my opinion that alarm was raised at about 9:35pm, and they found Maddie's body at about 9:45pm - 9:50pm, just as an official search was about to start.

But how does that work ?
Kate swore blind she looked everywhere, inside the cupboard etc couldn't find her and immediately she knew they'd taken her.
It's impossible (the bit i highlighted in red).

They knew she died a hell of a long time before the alarm was raised. 

The meticulously cleaning up episode for starters could not have taken place within that time frame given.

There is absolutely no way in the world they only discovered MBM's body at that time. 

Sorry to disagree there.
Agree - way too much had to be executed before 'showtime' imo.

Not sure why you would raise the alarm if you didn't know she was dead?
WLBTS is your thinking that a live 'abduction' was planned, and M died (they would have to be woefully unlucky) or possibly KM actually thought M had been abducted, then she was found dead? Either scenario too short for time, I would think.

Apologies if I've mis-read or missed the meaning.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 08.04.14 17:25

@rainbow-fairy wrote:
Agree - way too much had to be executed before 'showtime' imo.

Not sure why you would raise the alarm if you didn't know she was dead?
WLBTS is your thinking that a live 'abduction' was planned, and M died (they would have to be woefully unlucky) or possibly KM actually thought M had been abducted, then she was found dead? Either scenario too short for time, I would think.

Apologies if I've mis-read or missed the meaning.

What had to be 'executed'?

The alarm was raised when Maddie was found to be missing, i.e. people went out to search through bushes, Gerry running towards the children's play area to look, etc. It seems very clear from the Tapas bar statements that the 'alarm' was for a missing child, not an abducted child.

My thinking is that Maddie had an accident and died on the evening of 3rd May, and the body was disposed of and an abduction claimed.  You know, the theory put forward by Amaral.  I don't think anything was pre-planned.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by jeanmonroe on 08.04.14 17:26

Kate swore blind she looked everywhere, inside the cupboard etc couldn't find her and immediately she knew they'd taken her.
-----------------------------------------------

And there's the rub!

Everything is all 'based' on what K and the T9 SAID!

And what if they are all LYING about what they SAID?

We only had their 'word' UNTIL we had the rather 'unhelpful and hurtful' release of PJ files.

And then 'different' version/s of 'events' came to light.

"bumps on head, NO 'smashed/jemmied' shutters, resuscitation, UNLOCKED apartment, THREE kids left alone everynight, etc.,"

THEIR whole 'story' is BASED on what THEY said!

The official files tell a different 'story'

Which mother, anywhere in the world, would admit to diliberately 'jeopardising' an investigation into her 'missing' child?

Kate McCann DID!

eta. And the McCanns themselves asked for the investigation to be 'shelved' and never asked once, after that, for the case to be 're-opened'

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by Guest on 08.04.14 17:30

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:
It's impossible (the bit i highlighted in red).

They knew she died a hell of a long time before the alarm was raised. 

The meticulously cleaning up episode for starters could not have taken place within that time frame given.

There is absolutely no way in the world they only discovered MBM's body at that time. 

Sorry to disagree there.

No, it isn't impossible at all.  You haven't given any reasons except for the time it would have taken to clean up.  They only had to clean up behind the couch at that point, and they pushed a sofa over the spot anyway.  There was plenty of time later on to totally clean the apartment.

Sorry to disagree with you, Andrew77R.  Give me one simple piece of evidence that makes my hypothesis impossible, and I'll reconsider.
No need to apologise Whatliesbehindthesofa.

This is what's excellent about a forum like this where we can all bounce are own theories about. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs.

I just struggle with that idea being honest that they only found MBM at the time you stated which would only give them an hour or so to concoct a story that has baffled us all from day one.

It's just my belief that MBM died probably the day before. There is nothing really of any evidence to say she was alive on the 3rd which you say and if you can highlight anything that suggests she was then it would be appreciated. 

Again it's just my belief that this 'abduction' was meticulously planned. The Tapas (apart from Webster) were in on it although something went wrong before the alarm was raised and they had to adapt but still keeping to time scales. 

I'm afraid i cant really give any hard evidence as to why i believe this and if i could i would be asking Redwood for a job so could get this sorry mess solved a.s.a.p.

I just purport my theories on my own beliefs from what i have read on the files and also what i have educated myself from reading on this fantastic forum. 

We can agree to disagree. Be boring if everyone thought the same!!

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 08.04.14 17:33

Andrew77R wrote:
No need to apologise Whatliesbehindthesofa.

This is what's excellent about a forum like this where we can all bounce are own theories about. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs.

I just struggle with that idea being honest that they only found MBM at the time you stated which would only give them an hour or so to concoct a story that has baffled us all from day one.

It's just my belief that MBM died probably the day before. There is nothing really of any evidence to say she was alive on the 3rd which you say and if you can highlight anything that suggests she was then it would be appreciated. 

Again it's just my belief that this 'abduction' was meticulously planned. The Tapas (apart from Webster) were in on it although something went wrong before the alarm was raised and they had to adapt but still keeping to time scales. 

I'm afraid i cant really give any hard evidence as to why i believe this and if i could i would be asking Redwood for a job so could get this sorry mess solved a.s.a.p.

I just purport my theories on my own beliefs from what i have read on the files and also what i have educated myself from reading on this fantastic forum. 

We can agree to disagree. Be boring if everyone thought the same!!

If we're having a difference of opinion, of course I'm fine with that.  But you said that my hypothesis was impossible, and I don't think that's something you can back up, so it would be nice if you could withdraw it.

And changing just one word of one of your sentences:

There is nothing really of any evidence to say she was dead on the 3rd which you say and if you can highlight anything that suggests she was then it would be appreciated.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by rainbow-fairy on 08.04.14 17:43

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@rainbow-fairy wrote:
Agree - way too much had to be executed before 'showtime' imo.

Not sure why you would raise the alarm if you didn't know she was dead?
WLBTS is your thinking that a live 'abduction' was planned, and M died (they would have to be woefully unlucky) or possibly KM actually thought M had been abducted, then she was found dead? Either scenario too short for time, I would think.

Apologies if I've mis-read or missed the meaning.

What had to be 'executed'?

My thinking is that Maddie had an accident and died on the evening of 3rd May, and the body was disposed of and an abduction claimed.  You know, the theory put forward by Amaral.  I don't think anything was pre-planned.
I think certain things had to be done by alarm time... terrible job they did of it, but I just can't see they could have found her dead at such a late stage and got her moved.

I still don't understand why they would have been raising the alarm - I'm assuming now that you mean K couldn't see M, (who had maybe fallen behind the sofa), didn't look because she knew immediately 'she had been taken' THEN they found her dead with 15-ish minutes to go?

Apologies again if misconstrued - not much sleep, teething babby  yes 

PS not saying you are wrong, or that I am right, just struggling to see that scenario playing out, that's all

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 08.04.14 17:45

Andrew77R wrote:
I just struggle with that idea being honest that they only found MBM at the time you stated which would only give them an hour or so to concoct a story that has baffled us all from day one.

Exactly how long does it take to come up with the story that someone came in through the window and pinched your child? Not a work of machiavellian genius that, surely.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by Guest on 08.04.14 17:52

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:
I just struggle with that idea being honest that they only found MBM at the time you stated which would only give them an hour or so to concoct a story that has baffled us all from day one.

Exactly how long does it take to come up with the story that someone came in through the window and pinched your child?  Not a work of machiavellian genius that, surely.
About 5 seconds to come up with that. It was the ONLY story that they could say.

The faked abduction was the only story to cover up the assumed sedation, accidental death etc.

However, again IMO it took a lot longer than the hour or so you stated for all the pre planning, cleaning up, collaborated stories etc to get into place.

Shall we just agree to disagree on each other's theories.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by aiyoyo on 08.04.14 18:17

Andrew77R wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:
As you say he could shield his face by the way he carried his child and if anyone saw from a distance then at the time it would look like a father carrying his child back from a night creche.
Would certainly look more suspicious and be more dangerous for an unexposed GM lumping a big blue holdall around the streets to a certain destination.
All IMO.
Our posts crossed.
I keep thinking mid afternoon.  In full view. In a taxi, or given a lift by someone to somewhere not a million miles away. There are plenty of hiding places outside what would become the immediate search area.
For me Smithman may therefore be irrelevant
Just as was Tannerman
I'm not convinced PeterMac.

As i stated in earlier posts on this - i am in the opinion that Smithman is highly relevant and Smithman is GM. 

GM carrying a deceased MBM to a destination for final removal. 

Yes, i believe MBM sadly died before the 3rd but changes in the original plan / script had to change last minute.

GM did not have a choice. He had to get MBM out the complex a.s.a.p at that time otherwise everything would collapse. IMO he had a helping hand for final removal / disposal but something changed and he had to get MBM there as opposed to someone coming for MBM.

He risked it but it was him carrying MBM and was seen by the Smiths and Smithman is Gerry.

All IMO of course.


In his shoes, would you carry a dead child uncovered openly in a public place on foot risking all sorts while your wife is raising the alarm?  Or would you wait until you'd been and back before asking your wife to raise the alarm ?  
How critical is it that the alarm had got to be raised at 10pm?  How would a littler later than that make a difference?  
Why must the alarm absolutely got to be raised on the 3rd, why can it not wait till 4th if she died on the 3rd ?
I see your point.

However, What if part of the pre planning was actually somebody i.e THEY coming to 'Jemmie' the shutters and actually take a deceased MBM away.

Somebody as in outsider ? Why involve an outsider and leave yourself open to blackmail and complications?  Realistically would any outsider want to be complicit in a crime?  If the 'somebody' you mean refers to a hol. friend I can't see why any of them would agree to be used that way by Gerry.
Asking someone familiar with terrain to help find a burial place maybe, but asking a body disposal to come into the apt to collect the corpse is ......err too far stretched to be believed.  
Besides who outside of the group in PDL does Gerry know that well that can be trusted to keep his secret?
Not only I think no outside person would be mad to risk being seen going into an apt then going out with a dead child, I don't think relying on somebody to jemmy the shutters makes any sense either.


The plan didn't happen. GM was tipped off. He had to get MBM to the beach last minute. He took that risk as he DID NOT HAVE A CHOICE. 

if plan is foiled, why not alter it by pushing back the time of alert , or why not change plan?  Why did Gerry not have a choice of a few hours leeway ?  I don't get it why it HAD to happen on that night let alone at the fixed time. Expecting to execute all these dodgy activities right bang on precision is just not plausible or believable

Everything else was in place. HAD TO HAPPEN THAT NIGHT. 

IMO of course

I

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by aiyoyo on 08.04.14 18:38

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@rainbow-fairy wrote:
Agree - way too much had to be executed before 'showtime' imo.

Not sure why you would raise the alarm if you didn't know she was dead?
WLBTS is your thinking that a live 'abduction' was planned, and M died (they would have to be woefully unlucky) or possibly KM actually thought M had been abducted, then she was found dead? Either scenario too short for time, I would think.

Apologies if I've mis-read or missed the meaning.

What had to be 'executed'?

The alarm was raised when Maddie was found to be missing, i.e. people went out to search through bushes, Gerry running towards the children's play area to look, etc.  It seems very clear from the Tapas bar statements that the 'alarm' was for a missing child, not an abducted child.

My thinking is that Maddie had an accident and died on the evening of 3rd May, and the body was disposed of and an abduction claimed.  You know, the theory put forward by Amaral.  I don't think anything was pre-planned.

Rainbow fairy made a good valid point. If Maddie died from a self caused accident they were not aware of until they raised the alert, why did they hurry to dispose of the body ? They could rush her to the hospital and they needn't tell the Police about the rota check which in my opinion was expressly done to give them an alibi for abduction while covering the neglect issue.


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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by Guest on 08.04.14 18:44



I see your point.

However, What if part of the pre planning was actually somebody i.e THEY coming to 'Jemmie' the shutters and actually take a deceased MBM away.

Somebody as in outsider ? Why involve an outsider and leave yourself open to blackmail and complications?  Realistically would any outsider want to be complicit in a crime?  If the 'somebody' you mean refers to a hol. friend I can't see why any of them would agree to be used that way by Gerry.
Asking someone familiar with terrain to help find a burial place maybe, but asking a body disposal to come into the apt to collect the corpse is ......err too far stretched to be believed.  
Besides who outside of the group in PDL does Gerry know that well that can be trusted to keep his secret?
Not only I think no outside person would be mad to risk being seen going into an apt then going out with a dead child, I don't think relying on somebody to jemmy the shutters makes any sense either.


The plan didn't happen. GM was tipped off. He had to get MBM to the beach last minute. He took that risk as he DID NOT HAVE A CHOICE. 

if plan is foiled, why not alter it by pushing back the time of alert , or why not change plan?  Why did Gerry not have a choice of a few hours leeway ?  I don't get it why it HAD to happen on that night let alone at the fixed time. Expecting to execute all these dodgy activities right bang on precision is just not plausible or believable

Everything else was in place. HAD TO HAPPEN THAT NIGHT. 

IMO of course

I
I'm just in the belief rightly or wrongly that they had to have 'outside' help. Prior to the alarm being raised and more so afterwards. 

I don't think it is too far fetched that if you had the right connections, or new someone with connections why this scenario could not be carried out. 

Again, i just don't think it was a possibility to hold back or put back the agreed time. Again imo this is because of 'outside' help. There was a script to follow and by hook or by crook it had to be adhered too although last minute cock ups almost completely scuppered it. 

IMO of course.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by rainbow-fairy on 08.04.14 19:24

@j.rob wrote:...SNIPPED...
"I also think it is possible that at this stage Madeleine was not dead, but heavily sedated and possibly grievously ill."
How would this square with the dog alerts though? M taken back to 5a between the 4th May and the move to the villa? Risky I would have thought, and for what purpose?

____________________
"Ask the dogs, Sandra" - Gerry McCann to Sandra Felgueiras



Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

NORMAN MACDONALD, Maxims and Moral Reflections.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 08.04.14 19:32

@aiyoyo wrote:
Rainbow fairy made a good valid point.  If Maddie died from a self caused accident they were not aware of until they raised the alert, why did they hurry to dispose of the body ?  They could rush her to the hospital and they needn't tell the Police about the rota check which in my opinion was expressly done to give them an alibi for abduction while covering the neglect issue.

I take the witness statement of Tapas waiter J.R.Salcedas very seriously when considering the order of events that night:


'At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

'I went to find Ze and Ricardo to give them the news and to get their help in searching for the missing girl. I saw the head of the Milenium Restaurant in the Tapas and asked him to telephone the restaurant.

'I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother. I went to the reception with one of the child care workers whose name I do not remember. One of the employees looked to be organizing the searches and told us the name of the child.'

Salcedas didn't mention an abductor, just that Maddie was missing and that people were looking for her. Gerry was seen running to the pool and the children's play area - places I would look if it were me, I would look in all the places that my child was familiar with just in case they had wandered over there. And then, when people are assembling to start a search, Salcedas hears a scream.

Madeleine dying from falling while being left without adult supervision, possibly sedated, certainly sounds like neglect to me. I've heard the old 'that's not a good enough reason to hide the body' cry a hundred times on this forum, but that's just a subjective opinion.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by ultimaThule on 08.04.14 19:36

It's no more subjective than your own opinion, wlbts, and unless the child was illegally sedated, there would be no reason whatsoever to conceal either the death or the body if death was sustained due to accidental injury unless, of course, the intention was to claim abduction and milk the gullible public's wallets/purses for all they were worth.

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Re: Gerry's clothes

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 08.04.14 19:39

Andrew77R wrote:
However, again IMO it took a lot longer than the hour or so you stated for all the pre planning, cleaning up, collaborated stories etc to get into place.

What pre-planning?  My hypothesis doesn't involve any pre-planning.  Stating that they needed time to plan things before the event assumes that she died before the 3rd.  I'm saying that in my opinion she didn't.  And I ask again - what pre-planning?

You said it takes 5 seconds to come up with the abductor story, and I agree with that.

Cleaning - it takes a couple of minutes to wipe the floor behind the couch and push the sofa over that spot.  We don't know when the apartment was thoroughly cleaned.  There is no evidence that it occurred before the alert.  It could easily have happened at any point in the next few days.

The two handwritten timelines are very good evidence relating to the creation of the collaborated stories.  Those timelines were written in the hour before the police turned up.

I can see no evidence of any 'pre-planning'.

And I'll say again, because I find it a little patronising when you say that we shall just 'agree to disagree'.  I've been doing that since I joined this forum, and all the rest of my adult life.  But you said that my hypothesis is impossible, and haven't withdrawn it.  Withdraw it (or prove it), and I am perfectly happy to 'agree to disagree'.

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