The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hi,

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and start chatting with us!

Enjoy your day,

Jill Havern
Forum owner

Matt Oldfields 'check'

Page 5 of 8 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Mirage on 17.10.13 23:56

@Daisy wrote:
@Mirage wrote:I saw someone had mentioned the discrepancies between Dianne Webster's interviews. Apologies if I'm duplicating anything but I am pretty boggle-eyed from reading like most of us. Below is another example of improving memory and added detail over time. First up, her interview by PJ in 2007 followed by the Leicester rogatory 13 months later.

 Interview PJ 11th May 2007


Asked, she adds that she went to the restaurant in the company of her daughter and son-in-law.
 
Asked directly if someone had gone to her apartment to call them (herself and the Payne couple) for dinner the witness said no.
 
Asked if there was the possibility of having crossed paths with someone during the journey between her apartment and restaurant, the witness said no.
 
That night she judges to have arrived at the restaurant close to 21h00, in the company of the Payne couple.
 
That, at that time, the whole group were at the restaurant. The witness did not recall, but thinks that perhaps Gerald and Matt had not been in the restaurant along with the other members of the group.
 
In this regard, asked specifically whether, on the journey to the restaurant, if they had passed either of the two individuals described in the preceding paragraph, she answered categorically not.


Rogatory Leicester Police HQ 11th April 2008

4078    ”And then the, you arrived a little late. What can you remember of the evening then?”
Reply    ”Well we arrived about, I don’t know, ten to nine, five to nine, which was very late. Err and the thing that I didn’t mention at the original err interview in Portugal was that I do vaguely remember seeing Matt, he was coming up because I think he made some joke about coming up to see where we were because we were so late, but he was actually on his way to check err check the children.”
4078    ”Right.”
Reply    ”Err so I do, I do remember that although I didn’t remember it clearly at the time err so we got down to the table err I think we ordered our starters.”
4078    ”Do you remember who was there when you got there?”
Reply    ”Well Matt obviously wasn’t because we we’d just passed him but of course I don’t remember this at the time, and I think in my original statement I thought maybe Gerry wasn’t there, but maybe he was, you know, I don’t know.”
4078    ”You can’t be sure?”
Reply    ”I can’t be sure because it’s not something that I think I need to remember, you know at the time, its not something you need to remember.”
That's the stuff I was referring to earlier Mirage. Not a very trustworthy witness is she? nah
Not trustworthy at all, Daisy. Thanks for that.

 I remember that it was you now - see I'm at it, remembering stuff! No, seriously, I have read your posts and found them v interesting.

 Actually, if you look at that last bit, I would imagine Hobs would have a field day analysing it:-
 
"I can't be sure because it not something that I think I need to remember, you know at the time, it's not something you need to remember."

Mirage

Posts : 1665
Reputation : 382
Join date : 2013-02-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Okeydokey on 18.10.13 1:39

Some others may be able to help me with links here but re the MO 9.30pm (alleged) visit...

1.  He claims in the rogatory interview that he could see the twins breathing during the visit.  Now - remember the twins are in cots with mesh sides and the place is - supposedly - in near or semi darkness (not that I think the Tapas 9 have ever explained what light if any was on).

2.  In the Mockumentary (not the recent Crimewash thing) we see exactly where he says he was standing (and boy does he look uncomfortable when he makes this claim). It is - to coin a phrase - "ludicrous". The idea that anyone who had come all that way to do a check would stand about 4 or 5 feet away from the door is nonsense. And if they did, as MO claims he did, then - in semi darkness - how on earth is he going to see the twins "breathing" as he claims in his rogatory interview?

His rogatory interview is of course replete with erms and ahs and circumlocution...

Okeydokey

Posts : 919
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2013-10-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Grande Finale on 18.10.13 3:09

@Okeydokey wrote:Some others may be able to help me with links here but re the MO 9.30pm (alleged) visit...

1.  He claims in the rogatory interview that he could see the twins breathing during the visit.  Now - remember the twins are in cots with mesh sides and the place is - supposedly - in near or semi darkness (not that I think the Tapas 9 have ever explained what light if any was on).

2.  In the Mockumentary (not the recent Crimewash thing) we see exactly where he says he was standing (and boy does he look uncomfortable when he makes this claim). It is - to coin a phrase - "ludicrous". The idea that anyone who had come all that way to do a check would stand about 4 or 5 feet away from the door is nonsense. And if they did, as MO claims he did, then - in semi darkness - how on earth is he going to see the twins "breathing" as he claims in his rogatory interview?

His rogatory interview is of course replete with erms and ahs and circumlocution...
"how on earth is he going to see the twins "breathing" as he claims in his rogatory interview?"

Especially as the cots had ends you couldn't see through ! AND with the new SY timeline GM left the door open 5 deg so who was supposed to have opened the door the before MO got there ??

Grande Finale

Posts : 127
Reputation : 51
Join date : 2013-02-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Okeydokey on 18.10.13 4:01

Yep - I was being kind to Matt!  If the cots were as depicted in photos, they would have had opaque ends.  If no one else can supply MO's original rogatory quote I will myself in due course.

Okeydokey

Posts : 919
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2013-10-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by StraightThinking on 18.10.13 8:15

According to this timeline on mccannfiles, comprising input from a local resident, M was missing by 21.20 and the meal had ended just before 21.40

Timeline

This would mean the alarm wasn't raised straight away, but still at least 15 mins earlier than the accepted time of 21.55-22.00

How does this tally with MO's second check, which is said to have taken place at 21.35?

StraightThinking

Posts : 180
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-10-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Rufus T on 18.10.13 9:38

@tiredofthebs wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:Didn't Matt go jogging with Kate one afternoon as well?

Regarding the checks, is it possible that it is the other way round, that far from behaving suspiciously that Matt was concerned about the McCann children? Perhaps he thought that KM and GM did not check on them often enough? After all the McCanns were out until almost midnight some nights (I don't know whether both the Oldfields were out at that time, didn't Rachel stay in on the Wednesday?) Perhaps Madeleine's crying disturbed their own daughter who was only in the next-door apartment.
That whole jogging thing really was weird. The feeling back in 2007 was that they were jogging to check a burial site or temporary hiding place hadn't been disturbed. Either that or they were jogging to ensure they weren't bugged. Who goes jogging when they think their child has just been kidnapped by swarthy paedophiles?
Just to clarify it was on Wednesday 2nd May that Kate and Matt went jogging.
In his rog statement MO mentions it, makes jokes about feeling like he's in Baywatch, but no mention of attacking dogs.
In madam's book she makes a big deal about her pink trainers and little dogs attacking her, how strange MO doesn't mention that, I mean surely you would remember such an incident. HTH. thumbsup

Rufus T

Posts : 269
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-06-18
Location : Glasgow

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by ProfessorPPlum on 18.10.13 9:56

I

"I can't be sure because it not something that I think I need to remember, you know at the time, it's not something you need to remember."
Yes put this through the Hobalyser! Please!

ProfessorPPlum

Posts : 411
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-05-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Lance De Boils on 18.10.13 10:01

It would appear that it was very important for DW to REMEMBER SEEING MO. So important, that she had to retract what she had previously said  and say that she DID see him, after all. [How do the other two's (Paynes) statements compare?]
WHY would it be so important for DW to have seen him? Only reason I can think of is to give him an alibi for that time. In other words, he couldn't be anywhere else, because DW saw him right there. Why was an alibi so important?

As for MO being the one comforting Kate... Maybe he had "feelings" for her? Maybe he KNEW more than the others? Maybe he felt guilty?

Lance De Boils

Posts : 805
Reputation : 14
Join date : 2011-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by PeterMac on 18.10.13 10:04

@Grande Finale wrote:
Especially as the cots had ends you couldn't see through ! AND with the new SY timeline GM left the door open 5 deg so who was supposed to have opened the door the before MO got there ??
AND when Kate got there the twins were both on their fronts, in a head down kneeling posture, and she had to put her hand on the backs to check whether they were breathing. Or if you prefer the other anaesthetist's version, FP, putting a finger under their nose. You have two versions. Take your pick, as always.
Both should be struck off for that, incidentally.

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 143
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Guest on 18.10.13 10:27

@Grande Finale wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:Some others may be able to help me with links here but re the MO 9.30pm (alleged) visit...

1.  He claims in the rogatory interview that he could see the twins breathing during the visit.  Now - remember the twins are in cots with mesh sides and the place is - supposedly - in near or semi darkness (not that I think the Tapas 9 have ever explained what light if any was on).

2.  In the Mockumentary (not the recent Crimewash thing) we see exactly where he says he was standing (and boy does he look uncomfortable when he makes this claim). It is - to coin a phrase - "ludicrous". The idea that anyone who had come all that way to do a check would stand about 4 or 5 feet away from the door is nonsense. And if they did, as MO claims he did, then - in semi darkness - how on earth is he going to see the twins "breathing" as he claims in his rogatory interview?

His rogatory interview is of course replete with erms and ahs and circumlocution...
"how on earth is he going to see the twins "breathing" as he claims in his rogatory interview?"

Especially as the cots had ends you couldn't see through ! AND with the new SY timeline GM left the door open 5 deg so who was supposed to have opened the door the before MO got there ??
Why, little Maddie of course! Having just made her bed, turned both twins on their bellies, and having put the key to the front door her father carelessly left behind, on the kitchen sink for the PJ to find upon entering the apartment

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Guest on 18.10.13 10:30

@StraightThinking wrote:According to this timeline on mccannfiles, comprising input from a local resident, M was missing by 21.20 and the meal had ended just before 21.40

Timeline

This would mean the alarm wasn't raised straight away, but still at least 15 mins earlier than the accepted time of 21.55-22.00

How does this tally with MO's second check, which is said to have taken place at 21.35?
Did MO & ROB go recce if in apartment 5a the stage was set for KH to enter?

Cleaned spotless, all traces of blood a/o other unsavoury things removed; twins at peace, all props in place: all set for Button-man's run past the Smiths, and KH's grand finale?

Just asking, of course

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Rufus T on 18.10.13 11:01

@Lance De Boils wrote:It would appear that it was very important for DW to REMEMBER SEEING MO. So important, that she had to retract what she had previously said  and say that she DID see him, after all. [How do the other two's (Paynes) statements compare?]

WHY would it be so important for DW to have seen him? Only reason I can think of is to give him an alibi for that time. In other words, he couldn't be anywhere else, because DW saw him right there. Why was an alibi so important?

As for MO being the one comforting Kate... Maybe he had "feelings" for her? Maybe he KNEW more than the others? Maybe he felt guilty?
It would appear that neither of the Paynes remembered seeing MO until their rog statements either. HTH

Rufus T

Posts : 269
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-06-18
Location : Glasgow

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Rufus T on 18.10.13 11:07

@Portia wrote:

Did MO & ROB go recce if in apartment 5a the stage was set for KH to enter?

Cleaned spotless, all traces of blood a/o other unsavoury things removed; twins at peace, all props in place: all set for Button-man's run past the Smiths, and KH's grand finale?

Just asking, of course
Must say it certainly crossed my mind, and I'm sure the minds of many others. winkwink

Rufus T

Posts : 269
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-06-18
Location : Glasgow

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Daisy on 18.10.13 11:22

@Rufus T wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:It would appear that it was very important for DW to REMEMBER SEEING MO. So important, that she had to retract what she had previously said  and say that she DID see him, after all. [How do the other two's (Paynes) statements compare?]

WHY would it be so important for DW to have seen him? Only reason I can think of is to give him an alibi for that time. In other words, he couldn't be anywhere else, because DW saw him right there. Why was an alibi so important?

As for MO being the one comforting Kate... Maybe he had "feelings" for her? Maybe he KNEW more than the others? Maybe he felt guilty?
It would appear that neither of the Paynes remembered seeing MO until their rog statements either. HTH
Correct Rufus. Not one of their original statements mentions passing MO on their way to the Tapas bar. Yet a year later all three of them with their greatly improved memories suddenly remember and they have this collective flashback. Yeah, that sounds plausible, not!

____________________
“Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.”   

Unknown


“And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” 

Friedrich Nietzsche

Daisy

Posts : 1245
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2011-06-15
Location : Yorkshire, England

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Rufus T on 18.10.13 11:28

@Okeydokey wrote:Yep - I was being kind to Matt!  If the cots were as depicted in photos, they would have had opaque ends.  If no one else can supply MO's original rogatory quote I will myself in due course.
Here you are

" So I approached the room but I didn't actually go in because you could see the twins in the cots and one of the, you could see the twins in the cots because they're in with, sort of the cots were in the middle of the room with sort of a gap of about sort of maybe a foot between the two, the cots had sort of got that fabric end and sort of a mesh side, so you could see the sides and you could see them, erm, see them breathing and there were two there and it was all completely quiet. And the other things you could see in the room, there was a, there was another bed at the back underneath the window at the far side and you could see the end of the bed, another bed here."


extract from MO's rog. 

Rufus T

Posts : 269
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-06-18
Location : Glasgow

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Rufus T on 18.10.13 11:37

This photo was taken early doors between 1:00 - approx. 4:00 on 4th May
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_14.jpg


I just can't stop thinking you would need to actually, at least, step over the threshold of the room to see the occupants of the cots. Would it depend what height you were ? I suppose so.
Just thinking out loud.

Rufus T

Posts : 269
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-06-18
Location : Glasgow

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by bodiddly on 18.10.13 11:42

There were apparently three children in there so you check for and check on three children. It is as simple as that. You only check on two if you KNOW there are only two.

So he never checked at all or he did a thorough check on two.

bodiddly

Posts : 77
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-10-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by StraightThinking on 18.10.13 11:53

The second check (alleged to be at at 21.30-21.35) was 10-15 mins after an independent witness first heard that M was missing

Another heard someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine" between 21.15 and 21.30

Yet the check continued?

StraightThinking

Posts : 180
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-10-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by noddy100 on 18.10.13 12:01

I think MO is being given a bigger 'role' in this than I had previously thought
He must be close to KM as that picture of him comforting her was more 'genuine' looking than any interaction between her and Gerry

noddy100

Posts : 697
Reputation : 37
Join date : 2013-05-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by gbwales on 18.10.13 12:06

@Rufus T wrote:
" So I approached the room but I didn't actually go in because you could see the twins in the cots and one of the, you could see the twins in the cots because they're in with, sort of the cots were in the middle of the room with sort of a gap of about sort of maybe a foot between the two, the cots had sort of got that fabric end and sort of a mesh side, so you could see the sides and you could see them, erm, see them breathing and there were two there and it was all completely quiet. And the other things you could see in the room, there was a, there was another bed at the back underneath the window at the far side and you could see the end of the bed, another bed here."


extract from MO's rog. 
So he was able to see them breathing from outside the room in the dark, and yet people were having to check them for signs of life by touch later. Wish I had that level of eyesight.

____________________
"You can't stop the signal, Mal. Everything goes somewhere and I go everywhere."

Mr Universe to Malcolm Reynolds, "Serenity" (2005)

gbwales

Posts : 297
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-08-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by ultimaThule on 18.10.13 12:31

@Lance De Boils wrote:It would appear that it was very important for DW to REMEMBER SEEING MO. So important, that she had to retract what she had previously said  and say that she DID see him, after all. [How do the other two's (Paynes) statements compare?]
WHY would it be so important for DW to have seen him? Only reason I can think of is to give him an alibi for that time. In other words, he couldn't be anywhere else, because DW saw him right there. Why was an alibi so important?

As for MO being the one comforting Kate... Maybe he had "feelings" for her? Maybe he KNEW more than the others? Maybe he felt guilty?
Did I read somewhere this was to be a 'make or break' holiday for the McCanns who were said to be strapped for cash but, curiously, were able to join their pals on a not particularly cheap break despite not being in possession of any credit cards?

I wondered if Gezza had been making eyes at the nanny who was meant to accompany the family but cried off and allegedly returned to Canada.  An aside: if Gezza turned those eyes on me I'd be on the next plane to Oz.

If the gruesomes' marital problems weren't occasioned by Gezza's roving eye or by their lack of readies, could it be that Hotlips Healy had been engaging in extracurricular activity with another guy or gal?

ultimaThule

Posts : 3355
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2013-09-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Mirage on 18.10.13 13:03

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Lance De Boils wrote:It would appear that it was very important for DW to REMEMBER SEEING MO. So important, that she had to retract what she had previously said  and say that she DID see him, after all. [How do the other two's (Paynes) statements compare?]
WHY would it be so important for DW to have seen him? Only reason I can think of is to give him an alibi for that time. In other words, he couldn't be anywhere else, because DW saw him right there. Why was an alibi so important?

As for MO being the one comforting Kate... Maybe he had "feelings" for her? Maybe he KNEW more than the others? Maybe he felt guilty?
DW. Yes, a very strange backtrack IMO 13 months down the line. The Leicester rogatory where this was revealed was dotted with "couldn't remembers" from DW and replete with exhortations from the interviewing officer not to worry as it was a long time back. There is also the way she blurted it out right at the start. Getting it out of the way, interspersed with some errs. A bit like a non-sequitur, it draws the attention.

There doesn't seem to be much focus on this lady. And I suppose there mightn't have been for me until I saw the volte face above.

 She says she hadn't realised there was a large group going when FP and DP invited her. Evidently her husband cried off as it wasn't his scene, but the P's insisted she should still come. Now being a grandma myself, I would have grinned to  myself and read that as good old mum will solve some baby-sitting issues. But no. She floats about, semi-detached. Sleeps on a put-you-up in the lounge. Certainly present every evening at the Tapas meal. Quite part of the scene.

My daughter has dinner parties with thirty something friends and I would feel like a gooseberry in that setting. Thirty somethings want to talk about thirty something things. What on earth I would find to talk about all evening, every evening with this set, I don't know. It's just the perspective I have as she was a similar age to me now.

One other thing of note, she said the evenings finished at eleven. Again, this stuck out. We know about the crying episode and the sliding of the patio door at circa 11.45pm and all going silent. That means that at least on this ?Tues night the return to the apartment was well after 11pm. What time did the Tapas bar close, I wonder. Does anyone know?

When you're thirty something and out in a group you sometimes want to go on somewhere else after a meal if you're all in a jolly mood.

ETA When orientating the layout of apartment block with/for the officer, she volunteers that an adjacent apartment is empty. He says he believes she is right about that.

Mirage

Posts : 1665
Reputation : 382
Join date : 2013-02-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by whmon on 18.10.13 13:57

Very good point Mirage. As a Grandmother - what on earth was DW doing accepting 'childcare' arrangements like that? She should have turned into a dragon, laid down the law and told them all exactly where they were going wrong and what they were going to do about it. Not only did she not create a huge fuss about the arrangements - she also accepted it for her own Grandchildren. Very strange.

____________________
This message is confidential and the information must not be used, disclosed, or copied to any other person who is not entitled to receive it. If you have received this message in error please notify the sender and then delete it.

whmon

Posts : 434
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2013-04-04
Location : Back of Beyond

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by Mirage on 18.10.13 14:23

@whmon wrote:Very good point Mirage. As a Grandmother - what on earth was DW doing accepting 'childcare' arrangements like that? She should have turned into a dragon, laid down the law and told them all exactly where they were going wrong and what they were going to do about it. Not only did she not create a huge fuss about the arrangements - she also accepted it for her own Grandchildren. Very strange.
Thanks whmon.It's often a question of imagining yourself into the situation and that's what I did here.

In fact, I read a back article from 2007 where SH is talking about just that subject to the press, saying how she could bang all their heads together for the situation with the children being left alone at night. So perhaps SH would have had her tuppence worth towards DW too. I wonder if they ever met? Ha ha.

 We also knew that both Grandmas flew out to PdL and flew back soon after. Evidently GM and the two grannies had words and, as reported in the Bewk , they were soon despatched back to Blighty. Kate says Granny M said to SH "Looks like we're on the granny express home, Sue."

Whilst pondering your response another lightning bolt just struck me. DW talks in her 2008 rogatory about not noticing much around her, life just goes on sort of thing. Kind of dreamy image conjured up of someone going with the flow. Perhaps she should have taken more notice etc etc. But then she suddenly volunteers that an adjacent apartment was vacant as the interviewing officer was acquainting himself with the layout of the block. Will try and find the quote in a moment. That seems a bit of a departure from the unfocussed wandering about chillaxing, not paying much attention image.

Mirage

Posts : 1665
Reputation : 382
Join date : 2013-02-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Matt Oldfields 'check'

Post by windchime on 18.10.13 14:42

So now we are the situation where we are focusing on the two people who have kept the quietest (IMO) and it seems that it is throwing up a lot to discuss.  I do not believe that this man would stop Kate going to check her children and then come back knowing he could only see 2 but that 'all was quiet' so all's well.  You just would not do it and as someone else here said earlier, supposedly MO and the McCanns were not that close previous to this holiday so why on earth would you allow a 'stranger to your children' go and check they are OK.  It makes no sense.  

Is DW the quiet 'spanner in the works' the one that seemed to have 'told the truth' stayed quiet and therefore no one focused on her or her input? I have never ever been able to work out why they would insist she went on the trip with them and then put her up on a sofa bed in the middle of the lounge!?  All very odd.

The re-con made too big a thing of this interaction between the two of them and it is either SY trying to tell us something or the McCanns spinning more confusion.  Whatever, you can be sure they will reading this thread and all the others on here to make sure they cover their backs again!!

windchime

Posts : 137
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2013-07-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 5 of 8 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum