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Some musings on the programme.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Estelle on 19.10.13 5:56

@Seek truth wrote:
@Woofer wrote:@ultimaThule - "What I will never buy into is any theory which has GM or any of the males of the group panicked into the speedy disposal of a dead body."

Nor will I.  IMO the Thursday was carefully planned, the event having happened Tues/Wed.



Not TOO carefully planned. Otherwise Jane Tanner would have been more careful and they wouldn't be making mistakes when they speak. They would also have prepared a car. They would have written their timeline before the night, unless their friends knew nothing about what happened happened, until much later.
Aso I will never buy into any theory either which has GM or any of the males of the group panicked into the speedy disposal of a dead body.


They are too smart to do that!  


IMO it was planned to look "unplanned" as Gerry has told us that "confusion is a good thing."  


No way would Gerry dare to carry a dead Madeleine around the streets of PDL!


IMO it was a premeditated (faked) abduction!  Gerry was probably hoping to be seen but not recognised.


Who was he carrying then?  IMO it was a sedated Amelie.  He just went there and back again to the OC after he was sighted. IIRC Gerry was hoping that it was reported the next day but the Smiths took some time to report it. So then Jane Tanner's sighting was given more prominence.  Little did Gerry think he would ever be recognised by Martin Smith with a 60-80% certainty.


If you are prepared to accept the possibility of that theory, then Maddie must have died earlier in the week. 


But didn't she attend the creche all week?  IMO a substitute lookalike Madalene had already been organised before the trip to be signed in by Gerry who forged her friend's father's signature and signed the sub-Maddie in as his own child.


Mobile and creche records have been researched for about two years on two different forums by Dewi Lennard (kikoratton) who is now on twitter stating this.  He has even phoned the father who was non-committal when asked about this by Dewi. Dewi has sent his research to the PJ in Porto so is hoping to see them make some headway now with this case.   


Conclusion: Maddie died much earlier in the week, another girl was used to take her place, the abduction was premeditated as Redwood has told us recently but it was faked. 

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Post by russiandoll on 19.10.13 8:47

quote  
But didn't she attend the creche all week?  IMO a substitute lookalike Madalene had already been organised before the trip to be signed in by Gerry who forged her friend's father's signature and signed the sub-Maddie in as his own child.


 so as well as the planned abduction you mention in your final paragraph, you believe in a planned demise? The above can only be interpreted that way.

 It is quite a jump from GA's theory.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Seek truth on 19.10.13 9:49

They are too smart to do that!  


I disagree! Just because you are a doctor it doesn't mean you're  smart.


They're not very smart on TV interviews, and the way they have carried on. Laughing and unprepared in their interviews, I mean Kate was seen laughing outside the court room and she's trying to get. £1 m off Amaral.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Estelle on 19.10.13 10:58

@russiandoll wrote:quote  
But didn't she attend the creche all week?  IMO a substitute lookalike Madalene had already been organised before the trip to be signed in by Gerry who forged her friend's father's signature and signed the sub-Maddie in as his own child.


 so as well as the planned abduction you mention in your final paragraph, you believe in a planned demise? The above can only be interpreted that way.

 It is quite a jump from GA's theory.

I will explain my thinking this way. Once you read all Kiko's research on the mobile and creche records, which I used to follow on MCF and then here for about two years AND accept that Maddie must have died earlier in the week, you cannot have Maddie attending the creche for only one or two days. The substitute, Madalene, had to be attending all the days that the creche was open otherwise it would have been detected by now. Remember, this Madalene did not want to be called "Maddie". If there had been an accident, Gerry would not have been able to fly another Madalene in to take Maddie's place the next day. So he had to have planned to have the two families there in advance.  Being a child, Gerry had to find another Madalene with blonde hair and the same age as Maddie ready to take her place. So he must have induced his friend to bring his friend and their families to PDL exactly at the same time with this already arranged in advance.

As to GA's theory, he could only write about what was already in the PJ files. He could not speculate and IIRC the PJ were denied access to examining the mobile phone records earlier in the week. GA had to stay with suspecting death occurring on May 3 as he had not either had enough time to go deeper or he was denied access. IMO GA suspects premeditated murder but he cannot state that as he has no proof so he has to stick with an accidental death scenario on May 3 at the moment.  

I have never thought it was an accidental death since June, 2007 but it was only a gut feeling. I used to think Maddie died when Mrs Fenn reported her crying on the Tuesday but now i think she died before that and if Gerry did sign a substitute child into the creche every day as his own as well as her friend, EN, where was Maddie then?   Why are there so many photos of their supposed daughter which vary in height eg tennis balls photo vs pool photo in the same week? IMO they are not of the same child. They have probably been photoshopped too. 

Motive for a premeditated murder?  I have speculated about many possible motives in the past. Why weren't Maddie's medical records given to the PJ?  If there were none, why had no other doctors ever seen her?  Why did Kate need so much help with her from family and friends? Was Maddie disposable after the McCanns had their perfect twins? Was Maddie not going to be the trophy child that narcissist parents would be proud of?  Why do the McCanns call her "the little child" now as if they have disassociated from her? Why was Maddie made a Ward of the Court? Was Maddie abused so as she was about to start school, did the McCanns fear that she would talk? There are many other possible motives but I will leave it at that.

IMO this was a premeditated death and if they are ever charged only with accidental death, that will at least put them away for a few years.

IMO GA will write another book one day and tell us more.  
 

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Estelle on 19.10.13 11:20

@Seek truth wrote:They are too smart to do that!  


I disagree! Just because you are a doctor it doesn't mean you're  smart.


They're not very smart on TV interviews, and the way they have carried on. Laughing and unprepared in their interviews, I mean Kate was seen laughing outside the court room and she's trying to get. £1 m off Amaral.

Perhaps I should have said "cunning" or "street smart".  IMO they are narcissistic sociopaths who believe that the world owes them a living (eg fund) and that they can get away with premeditated murder!

I agree that they are not "normal" in psychiatric or psychological terms. But they have been "cunning" so far in hiding Maddie's body for a total of six years!  Most murderers are not so "street smart" or "cunning".

IMO the McCanns are often laughing because they think that because the body has not been found yet that they can get away with saying anything that they feel like saying.  IMO their inappropriate laughter is indicative of a sociopath who thinks he/she has got away with whatever they have done which I believe to be premeditated murder as IMO this was no accident.    

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Woofer on 19.10.13 13:03

Estelle - who were the other guests that had a child called Madalene ? I`m sure I`ve read it somewhere but can`t find it.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by comperedna on 19.10.13 13:47

I still think the simplest and safest place for temporary, or even long term storage, of something perishable which needed to be hidden, is in several layers of bin bags at the very bottom of a full chest freezer with loads of normal stuff on top of it. It sounds macabre, but it could stay hidden for years if the person owning the freezer and the house it was in was complicit. Once wrapped it would be simply a parcel, and the awfulness of the situation could be put aside until a permanent solution some day in the future. A body is not a child, only the sad reminder that once there was a child.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Hobs on 19.10.13 20:51

It strikes me as interesting  the mccanns obsession of perfection, everything being just so.

We have them describing Maddie as almost perfect, almost perfectly formed implying their was some obvious defect that was visible at birth yet at the same time in kates bewk we have her describing Maddie's perfect genitals torn apart.

Does this mean that Maddie was faulty, defective, apart from her genitals?

Often in cases where a parent, family member abuses or kills their child, we see subtle demeaning of the victim, thus whatever happened was deserved by the child, they brought it on themselves by being imperfect in some way.

We have Maddie describes as a screamer, having a temper, being clingy, being demanding, requiruing comforting for however number of hours, given we know all this and kate expressed concern Maddies was going to turn out like kate ( why would a mom worry her daughter will turn out like her, usually that's a compliment unless there was something physically or mentally wrong with the mother which she saw in her daughter, and why Maddie and not Amelie?)

We know kate had to have a lot of help with her children to the extent it seems she was never really left alone with them, this leads me to ask was this because the family knew there were problems and were trying to deal with it within family and friends?

I have seen subtle and even blatant demeaning of Maddie but none of the twins, why is this i wonder?

Given they were all IVF the obvious questions is parentage.

The twins will share the same parentage for obvious reasons, what is worth asking is if the twins share the same parentage as Maddie?
Do they share both gerry and Kate as parents?
Gerry and a donor egg?
Kate and donor sperm?
Donor egg and sperm?

Remember when choosing IVF parents will invariably choose donors who bear similarities to themselves such as skin, hair and eye color, height, nationaility even perhaps even intelligence, they want to child be be similar enough to them in looks so that the chuild won't stand out like a sore thumb when presented to family, although not a certainty as genes are complicated things and throwbacks can and do occur which is why you may get a blonde baby in a family that usually has dark hair or vice versa and when they look back through family pics and history they find a blone/dark haired relative.
They aren't going to choose a white donor if their family is non white or a non white donor donor for a white family, The child would stand out like a sore thumb and questions would arise , especially if the family didn't know the child was IVF or it was against their religion.

IVF children also have a higher risk of genetic defects resulting in  either physical or mental issues.

We know Maddie had a coloboma and that there are various other health issues linked with it from mild to profound.
First they said it was pronounced and a good way to identify her as well as being a good marketing ploy, later on they minimised it to a mere fleck.
Why then the change in description?

Is this why medical records for Maddie were not handed over? Was it because it would reveal some truths they wanted kept quiet?

The clinics where kate had IVF would have records as to donors even if it the parents, number of cycles, number of eggs harvested and so on, her GP would also have access to Maddie's records such as health issues, vaccinations, checks from the midwife etc.

Should it be that gerry wasn't the father, it is no big deal half the time it is the dad that has the problem, it might mean that the donor is no longer allowed to dontate (especially if other offspring have health issues) could it be that gerry doesn't want to be seen as less than the perfect man, a blow to his ego that he fires blanks or his swimmers need assistance ( depending on the type of IVF used in each case) Could he blame it all on kate which would fit in with his arrogance and ego.

What was so different about Maddie that she never fitted in with their idea of the prefect family i wonder?

They have the perfect family blonde blue eyed twins a boy and a girl, a big house, professional jobs that are respected ( doctors)  cars, upper middle class ( up from working class roots) social climbers with good connections, the right social circles and connections in high places. Did Maddie not fit in with their future plans i wonder ( hence kate refusing to answer the question about handing Maddie over to another family member or even possible adoption)
Given all the work and money needed for IVF why then decide you don't want to keep the result?
It's not like you can take the baby back and ask for a refund or replacement because it is faulty.
Giving her to a family member is more acceptable but still questionable as i why get rid of her and keep the twins, why not hand them all over as a group or why not one of the twins?

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Who?What?Where? on 20.10.13 1:28

Nature, from what I have read in newspaper's and on the internet, decided that the mccanns could not conceive, naturally.

The mccanns do not seem to, truly, realise how lucky they were, to even have Madeleine in the first place.

I do not care how much money they think that they have accumulated, how much their house is worth, or how powerful they think that their friends are.

You do not leave three children like that, if you really care about them.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by ultimaThule on 20.10.13 4:24

It isn't in the nature of a self-entitled personality to feel 'lucky' as all they believe is that they are more deserving of having whatever they want, whenever they want it, than other folk. 

Apart from the fact that GM didn't waltz into a consultant position on first qualifying as a doctor, I suspect his saintly wife's failure to conceive was the first time he experienced not having his desires granted immediately.  

The children of pyschopaths mean nothing more to them than any of the other symbols they use to convince those around them of their normality, and their offspring provide them with opportunity to create their own worshippers at the altar of daddy, or mummy as the case may be, and woe betide those who do not pay unquestioning homage to their god or goddess.    

I suspect that KM has more than one disorder which can afflict those whose innate sense of powerlessness drives them to seek refuge in dissociative and/or narcissistic behaviour, and that her obvious mental health problems have been compounded by her relationship with her husband.

In passing, I find it significant GM didn't venture far from home to embark on his chosen university subject while KM opted to study medicine as far from her home as it's possible to get - few universities offer medicine as an option and although Aberdeen is further than Dundee, its criteria for would-be medical students is more demanding and I doubt she would have made the grade. 

Since joining this forum and having my worst long-held suspicions confirmed, I've given thanks to nature for preventing KM from having the 6 or 7, as expressed to one of her best friends, children she intended to produce.  If the Jesuits are correct, society may witness another K or another G, or both, when the twins come of age but, in any event, I can't imagine either of them will be unaffected by their older sister's sudden absence from their young lives, or adversely affected by their toxic parents.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by ultimaThule on 20.10.13 4:27

@Woofer wrote:Estelle - who were the other guests that had a child called Madalene ? I`m sure I`ve read it somewhere but can`t find it.
Read Sceptic's post on page 1, Woofer yes

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Estelle on 20.10.13 9:37

@Woofer wrote:Estelle - who were the other guests that had a child called Madalene ? I`m sure I`ve read it somewhere but can`t find it.
This what Peter Mac quoted on Page 1 of this thread:  


Dewi Lennard said on 15 October, 2013:


http://algarvenewswatch.blogspot.com.es/2013/10/madeleine-mccann-so-whats-new.html#comment-form

May I just refer to my own research here, which I have shared with Chief Investigator Monteiro at Diretorio do Norte, Porto. I'll be brief. 

Analysis of the telephone calls shows that the McCanns were starting the cover-up by 22.00 on 1 May, followed by Gerry's infamous 12 voicemails on 2nd. 

And the creche attendance records show that a guest called (Robert) Naylor allowed GM to sign his own daughter (E) plus another girl in, from as early as 29 April. 


No relationship Naylor/GM has ever been admitted or investigated. I believe the "other girl" whom GM claimed was Maddie, was in fact a little friend of the Naylors, called Madalene R...r

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Estelle on 20.10.13 9:53

comperedna5 wrote:I still think the simplest and safest place for temporary, or even long term storage, of something perishable which needed to be hidden, is in several layers of bin bags at the very bottom of a full chest freezer with loads of normal stuff on top of it. It sounds macabre, but it could stay hidden for years if the person owning the freezer and the house it was in was complicit. Once wrapped it would be simply a parcel, and the awfulness of the situation could be put aside until a permanent solution some day in the future. A body is not a child, only the sad reminder that once there was a child.

Talking about fridges.......this is where I think the body was stored temporarily - Apartment 5J

The GNR dogs

On 10th May at about 20h10, upon the request of the PJ, searches were carried out in all of the apartments belonging to blocks 4 and 5 of the OC, two tracker dogs and two search and rescue dogs being used for this operation, adopting the same methods as those used on 7th May, just that this time the apartments were all open and searched one by one, being accompanied by a representative from the resort, who had the keys to all the apartments (apart from those not under her administration) and also with the objective of helping with the searches. The collaboration of all the guests occupying the apartments at that time was requested for this purpose and those apartments that were found to be empty were opened by the administrator.
 
All the apartments were searched by the dogs and when they arrived at apartment 5J they began to sniff with intensity at the entrance door. During this behaviour it was noted by the PJ officers that there must be some unusual odour, but which with all certainty did not have anything to do with the odour being searched for, but there must have been something strange inside.
 
After entering the apartment, it was observed that the odour came from close to the fridge, which was open and contained some rotting meat and vegetables.
 
• Initiating the diligence, the first sniffer dog, after having smelled the towel used in the previous operation, began searching, it being certain that next to the doors of some apartment he demonstrated major interest whilst he did not even approach others. In none of these actions did the dog give him a signal that he had caught the scent of the missing child. It is certain however, that near apartment 5J, 5H and 4G, that the dog showed major interest in smelling the doors and the immediate areas. He states that next to 5H, there were two bags of rubbish which may condition the dog. 

Just outside apartment 4G was a tray with plates, cutlery and cloth napkins, apparently used. It is certain that this apartment is the one where the missing child's parents were lodged (at the time). 

In relation to the dog's interest at doorway 5J, the same may have been conditioned by the presence of people inside the apartment.
 
http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5671-dogs-more-dogs-fridges-and-apartments?highlight=GNR+dogs+J

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Woofer on 20.10.13 12:36

Thanks Estelle and ultimaThule.

I wonder where Dewi Lennard got the information about this other girl called Madalene R..r (spelt differently) being a friend of the Naylors?  Whatever, he says he passed the info to the Porto police.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Nina on 20.10.13 12:49

@Woofer wrote:Thanks Estelle and ultimaThule.

I wonder where Dewi Lennard got the information about this other girl called Madalene R..r (spelt differently) being a friend of the Naylors?  Whatever, he says he passed the info to the Porto police.
Dewi Lennard spent hours, days, weeks and months researching and cross referencing, with some help from others. All the findings were sent to the police of both countries and also Gonçalo Amaral.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Estelle on 20.10.13 17:36

@Woofer wrote:Thanks Estelle and ultimaThule.

I wonder where Dewi Lennard got the information about this other girl called Madalene R..r (spelt differently) being a friend of the Naylors?  Whatever, he says he passed the info to the Porto police.


I have been posting with Dewi for over two years on MCF and then mainly lurking on here. We all used to predict that Maddie died much earlier in the week.

He started analysing the phone records from the PJ files. Another person analysed the creche records at that stage on another thread.

Eventually, he started putting the two records together. By this stage all sightings of Maddie had been discredited except for the creche attendances. He then noticed how similar the two signatures were against Maddie's name and EN's name.

Then he started focusing on EN, where she stayed and the friends of her parents. He found EN's father's name online somewhere and then compared the signatures.  He also phoned him. I think he sent the results to SY ages ago but they did not reply so he sent them to the PJ Porto this year. I am not sure that he sent them to Amaral as Dewi does not believe in GA's current theory but realises that he has to stick to what is in the files. He does not trust SY either. I now follow Dewi Lennard on twitter because IMO he has almost cracked the case as to her dying earlier in the week. He has not said exactly when but he is adamant that she never went to the creche. I put it to him once about whether the girl in the taxi driver story could have been the substitute Madalene leaving PDL and he saw some possible credence in that as her parents look a bit like Kate and Gerry.    
 

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Guest on 20.10.13 18:07

Estelle if he sent SY information, then I believe they would have to reply (and log the information).........even if only an acknowledgement they had received it.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Estelle on 20.10.13 18:13

candyfloss wrote:Estelle if he sent SY information, then I believe they would have to reply (and log the information).........even if only an acknowledgement they had received it.  
I must admit I am vague about whether he even sent it to NSY now I think about it as he does not trust the British police. He was going to at one stage but I am not sure whether he ever did because I have never read that he received a response from them.  I can only say for sure that he has sent it to the PJ in Porto this year.

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